An interesting thought of.... ummmm, well just read

[Meph]

I'm not sure, but some of us remember back in the day. All..... 2years ago(ish). The arms race was really at sort of a stand-still. Only hoppers really available was the Revolution, nobody bought eggs because they were garbage. Ricochet just hit the market.

I think shortly after is when this arms race really got it's biggest "jump-start" since the Shocker and Angel came onto the market.

Because it was basically all limited to gravity still. Revvy feed 30bps? Haha, yeah right! :rolleyes: That was a dream. Hell, even 20bps was dreamed impossible by most and a "It'll never happen, and if it does won't be allowed" type of situation.


Then in a very short swoop, the Halo comes out followed closely by the NPPL lifting the ban on "force-fed hoppers." They felt, remember, that "Nobody can shoot faster than 13bps, so we'll allow them." Yeah, remember those days? When no human could ever shoot faster than 13bps, except obviously RT mag or 98RT or even Factory F/A people (yes, some of us still are around). And even if they could, originally the hopper still limited the cycles. Even if there was a, oh....... let's say 40bps marker! No hopper could feed that fast.

Well now that the Halo's out, NPPL lifted the ban, BE comes out with a newer, better egg. Then of course the Halo is upgraded to belt-driven to feed even FASTER than originally. BE upgrades the board to make Egg feed faster. Halo new software too. Empire has their own Halo coming out. All of these to feed the beasts, and all since the NPPL lifted that force-feed ban.

Well the human can still not pull past 13bps right? Simply add in bounce settings and suddenly we have people OUTSHOOTING these damn hoppers! NOW we have BE making their Envy to feed 27bps, and Qloader with 30bps. Every marker on the market now must have WAS or Chaos or some sort of trigger-enhancing system to let people shoot faster than they physically can. Markers are now advertising in their manuals to not set the bounce too low or else they could get a full-auto effect even! Yet that's what people are doing.

It's all one giant spiral effect. Started with pumps. From bolt-action to adding simply a pump handle! To then autotrigger. To then 2-pumps mounted on 1 handle like the Deuce. To semi-automatic. To full-auto. To electronic. To bouncing electronics. It's all continuing, one giant spiral.

And it doesn't include just the arms race. Clothing and paddings. Padding there for what, to protect joints and such from impact. Not anymore. Masks are being made softer, pads are being sewn into the clothing. Pads are being made larger. Remember when it was just elbow pads and knee pads? They morped to now engluf the forearm and shin, those need to be covered. Even the shoulders are now needing to be covered in padding.

They make more pads, they make markers that shoot faster. If the paint is bouncing off, need to make it more brittle. If the paint is then breaking, they need to make SOFTER pads. Paint is bouncing off again, need to make markers shoot faster and paint even more brittle. People have to shoot even more and more paint to get it to break on their ever growing and softening padding.

See the spiral? I highly doubt there's going to be an end to it anytime soon. The industry and leage promotors aren't going to do anything about this. The industry profits from it to make the latest and greatest padding, or electro firing AT LEAST 20bps or else it won't even sell. The promotors to these league events won't do anything since the people who pay and sponsor the events are the paint manufacturers, the electro-marker manufacturers, the clothing manufacturers. Basically the sponsors are the people who are making the stuff to profit from.

If the promoters even dared to cap bps, to cap hoppers, to cap padding.... you and I both know that the supporting sponsor money would suddenly start to trickle away! Adding to this spiral even further.

Honestly, has this industry pushed itself too far to recover from this? And even if they could...... would they try or want to recover? Would the players even accept it considering how the current state is today?

[Woogie12]

You made a very good and frightening point. You are correct, if the paintball companies and the nppl put the no-force fed hoppers ban into effect, or if boards were capped, the paintballing community would be in outrage. I think we may have very well pushed it too far to go bad. It's sad to say but I don't believe that ROF will stop increasing. ROF will probably just keep going up until insurance companies step in. :(

[Spaceman613]

Simple solution... Different classification brackets

Unlimited (like it is now)

mechanical or no force feed hoppers (either use a mech, or an electro without force feed)

pump

stock

Make a bracket in nppl or psp or whatever to allow a mech /no force feed bracket.

or at least i think it would be fun to see... kinda like different divisions at the dragstrip.

[shartley]

Good post!


Originally posted by Spaceman613
Simple solution... Different classification brackets

Unlimited (like it is now)

mechanical or no force feed hoppers (either use a mech, or an electro without force feed)

pump

stock

Make a bracket in nppl or psp or whatever to allow a mech /no force feed bracket.

or at least i think it would be fun to see... kinda like different divisions at the dragstrip.
I agree with this.

I will also point out that the majority of paintball players will NEVER enter into a tournament. NUFF said.

[Crighton]

All of which makes me glad that I play 95% of my games at a private field with a good group of close knit people.

[TheTramp]

I thought that teh NPPL had ruled that some of the newer clothes broke their padding rules. Didn't one company say that they would be reducing the padding after they'd put out a rediculous shirt that was specificly designed with unresonable padding.

[GT]

Originally posted by Spaceman613
or at least i think it would be fun to see... kinda like different divisions at the dragstrip.

good post bro!,
This will be the future of paintball. Different classes for different styles of game. I am not going to spend more time learning how to "walk" 20bps on an electro than playing the game


ROF will probably just keep going up until insurance companies step in.

WHEN someone gets killed. Trust me it is only a matter of time. With the number of electros in peoples hands and more folks in the game its simply a matter of when and not if....

[Miltonyz]

It's called progress or evolution buddy. I swear sometimes that AO is filled with a bunch of Luddites. "Burn the new technology it's evil".
If I can find more padded clothing legally I would be stupid not to. In responce to paint companies make more fragile paint. The net effect is zero but you must adapt or die. I gtg I'll post more later.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Miltonyz
It's called progress or evolution buddy. I swear sometimes that AO is filled with a bunch of Luddites. "Burn the new technology it's evil".
If I can find more padded clothing legally I would be stupid not to. In responce to paint companies make more fragile paint. The net effect is zero but you must adapt or die. I gtg I'll post more later.
Evolution is not always a good thing, or even a practical thing… look at the Concorde. ;)

As for padding… I feel that if the padding is to protect you from injury it is good… but that is NOT the padding we are talking about. Football players wear “pads” as well… and for legitimate reasons.

The padding being discussed is to induce bouncing of paintballs, not for player safety. And if you need (or go looking for) padded clothes to help the balls bounce off of yourself, I would argue that trying to improve your game skills will help you more in the long run. And this goes to what I have been saying for a while….. too many players would rather “buy” their game, than actually develop better skills.

Being hit 20 times and not breaking a ball does not make someone a better player than the guy who got hit once but the ball broke…. even if you can “technically” stay in the game longer. And neither does shooting a $1400 marker and wearing the latest “tournament” clothes.

“I am not a Doctor, but I play one on TV.”

;)

[fallout11]

There's more crime now than years ago.

Does anyone think that is "evolution" or "progress" also?

[Brophog]

Originally posted by Miltonyz
It's called progress or evolution buddy. I swear sometimes that AO is filled with a bunch of Luddites. "Burn the new technology it's evil".
If I can find more padded clothing legally I would be stupid not to. In responce to paint companies make more fragile paint. The net effect is zero but you must adapt or die. I gtg I'll post more later.

That's the point. The net effect is zero.

You only need the padded clothing to shield you from the many paintballs. You only need the many paintballs so that one will break on the padded clothing.

Its cyclic, that's Meph's point.

[fallout11]

Yes, and by definition of the word cyclic, never ending.
It's also escalating. As some have correctly pointed out, and unending "arms race".

But all things (at least in this universe) are finite.
A limit will eventually be reached.

The only question is whether this will be an artifically imposed limit (such as rate of fire caps, ammo limitations, or restricted "classes") or a accidentally or naturally occuring one remains to be seen.

[Digits]

Originally posted by gtrsi


good post bro!,
This will be the future of paintball. Different classes for different styles of game. I am not going to spend more time learning how to "walk" 20bps on an electro than playing the game



WHEN someone gets killed. Trust me it is only a matter of time. With the number of electros in peoples hands and more folks in the game its simply a matter of when and not if....

I dunno.. People use to wear just goggles, not even full masks, and no one died then.. It's very unlikely someone would die from a paintball being fired at 300 fps or less, but if people start raising that, the chances also raise. And ya with the fast electros if you catch 15 balls in the adams apple that would possible kill you, but again thats unlikly.. If you got hit there once your natural instinct would either be to grab your neck, or tuck your chin in.. And this reaction would happen very fast so catching even 3 in the adams apple would be a rare thing.. Also, I doubt any gun could put 15 balls on top of eachother like that..

But your right, someone will probablly die before people realize this is excessive..

[IWANTMOREMAGS]

There is a bps limit.If balls are getting close enough to each other that they can touch outside the barrel of a gun, will the nppl raise the fps limit? No. The NPPL and other leagues I predict will soon set a led foot down on these rules and will never change them. I think soon enough they will enforce a padding rule. They already have one at my local park.

[Miltonyz]

I guess the difference is in the perspective. I see nothing wrong with the cyclic motion. I don't know why Meph considers it a bad thing. It's just natural and continues in everything. I ride dirtbikes and the same argument could be made that even though the technology has improved a hundred fold all bikes are pretty much equal. But that ignores the fact that even if they are equal now they are many times superior to past models.




I would argue that trying to improve your game skills will help you more in the long run

I'll be the first to tell you that I suck at paintball Shartly no harm there. But the fact is paintball has a degree of luck to it. I as an inferior player has gotten a lucky shot on many players better then me. I've seen our local Rookie team somehow max a amatuer team filled with superior players. My point is that I see no problem with a player trying to "maximize" his luck with bouncier clothes. I don't buy them because for me they are not worth the money, but to a player who wanted every edge possible it's worth it.


too many players would rather “buy” their game, than actually develop better skills.

Again the same thing in dirtbiking. There is guys that go out there with 750 dollar suspension jobs, an extra 500 dollars put into their motor that are just plain going to suck. I saw a guy race a local race in the "B" class with an 88 Kx250. The bike was a doggy piece of crap but he managed to beat most of the pack just with superior riding skills. What irritates me about paintball is that people seem to think you have to pay your "dues" before you can use top of line stuff. Whether or not somebody is a poor player or not is irrelevant. If he wants to use a 1500 gun I don't see why people look down upon them.



Evolution is not always a good thing, or even a practical thing… look at the Concorde

Sometimes a particular path taken leads in failure. That is good, because then you know that only the strong designs survive. If one super fast plane design proves unwieldy you don't quit trying, you redesign

[Brophog]

Originally posted by Digits
Also, I doubt any gun could put 15 balls on top of eachother like that..

But your right, someone will probablly die before people realize this is excessive..

That's the line of thinking that got us in all this trouble to begin with. "No one can shoot past 13 bps, so we won't make any rules to enforce such a thing".


The thing that makes the new markers more dangerous is the fact there is a world of difference between 1 ball hitting you in a sensitive area, and 15 hitting you in a sensitive area.

At a distance, your right it is harder for you to get hit with multiple, accurate shots. In regards to safety though, you have to consider worst case scenarios. Within 10-15 feet, you may not have the reaction time necessary to move if your getting hit with a high number of balls per second. These are the potentially dangerous cases. Obviously, the more balls you can crank out in a second, the more dangerous such a scenario becomes.

[Meph]

Exactly, like inbreed children with arms growing out their bums and only 1 eye. That type of evolution really should die off!


So remember to ban Country Music!




Now then. As for commented earlier about the insurance companies. I'm wondering who is insuring these events and what they feel about the leagues. I doubt they even know anything that's going on, as long as $$ keeps coming in and nobody is thankfully getting hurt big whoop right?

But what happens when somebody does get seriously injured? Will they then step in or continue to ignore? If they do step in will they make the regulations so stiff that the events won't even HAVE insurance? Or at the very least get some cheaper garbage, maybe even just fake it by getting the forms for people to sign but really they are worthless. What's it going to take?


For the seperate divisions, the concept is good and probably the only logical idea available right now. But implementation really is another topic all on it's own. Would there be enough teams to even have everything broken up decently, or would it end up where everybody wants the debounce-on-1 setting equipment and takes their chances at the larger, more promising Grand Prize pot-o-gold at the end of the box of Lucky Charms. Because chances are you can see that happening already, can't ya? Pump division and limited divisions getting the shaft in prizes besides a handshake while the money-making section gets the goodies and kiss the bearded girl.

After a few seasons, or even just one, with low turnout in the brackets would they go back to the old unlimited-everything only division to make it easier on themselves? Look at the Pan AM, they're even unlimited now. No more hopperball, no more pump division. All the paint you can buy they will be happy to supply! So go say hi with your wallet held high and chant Aye-Aye to the paint-sellin guy.


Now here's the real thing.


How much bull will people have to put up with until somebody comes along and makes a real competition to these leagues to give them a run for their money? A new, better national league that actually is "for the People" as the NPPL was supposed to be, but quickly became for the $.

[xXHavokXx]

Hellfire fixes a majority of padding issues

[Brophog]

Now there's nothing wrong with bearded girls.........

[Spaceman613]

I know a few teams that would have loved to play Pan Am limited paint... but we all live in the midwest.

as for the bearded girls? man, theres a dirty joke somewhere there.. but i wont say it

[Wes Janson]

Required: a not-for-profit organization whose purpose is to be a paintball league.

I'm unsure if someone could truly die from any number of bps..it doesn't seem likely. Concussion, sure. Passing out from pain, sure. What is more likely would be a sudden rash of incidents of lens failures due to multiple high-rof, high-fps impacts. Get a half dozen blinded players, and the playing public will clamor for change for fear of being next.

[bjjb99]

Originally posted by shartley

As for padding… I feel that if the padding is to protect you from injury it is good… but that is NOT the padding we are talking about. Football players wear “pads” as well… and for legitimate reasons.

The padding being discussed is to induce bouncing of paintballs, not for player safety.


Something along the lines of "the outward-facing surfaces of any padding worn by a player must be made of hard, paintball-breaking, high-impact plastic" would pretty much put a stop to this one. Make all players wear those hard plastic motocross chest protectors that JT makes/made. Sell the things in team colors with logos on 'em.

"Brilliant!"

"Maybe I'll put them in bottles..."

"Brilliant!"

BJJB

[bryceeden]

How many pro players actually want the high rates of fire to stop? I keep seeing these treads about bps being too high, and in my opinion its stupid. I work in the medical field, and the adems apple is alot stronger than most people seem to think. I can 99.9999999999999% garentee that no one is going to die from overshooting as long a chrono rules are even loosly enforced, if they do it wasn't 100% caused by the balls hitting them, but from something like an abnormally weak air way. And Digits is right, how many of you have been hit with even three shots that where right on top of each other? It doesn't happen.

Now as a tourney player I love the high rates of fire. I use an RTpro, and at best shoot about 13bps, but I play front, and love running through 20+bps strings, its alot more fun to me if the other team has fast markers, because it makes me work for my positions.

As a tourney producer which I also do I like the high rates of fire because it brings in alittle money, and don't even kid your self because paintball isn't a high profit industry. Basically it is high entry prices, poor tourneys, or high paint sales. You have to pick one, and I think most players would prefer high paint sales any day, and that takes faster rates of fire.

The BPS count is going to keep rizing, and I for one am glad.

Sorry, I just had to rant somewhere.

[Beemer]

no control
HotDog The Movie: To settle this we will have a chinese downhill. WTF is a chinese downhill.[in chinese accent]
First the rules: THERE ARE NO RULES


When E.F.Hutton talks[I mean NPPL]do people listen..anybody remember that commercial?





quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My only agenda is to keep the sport relatively safe for everyone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
own a pretty fast marker(e-cocker) however if I manage to connect 10+ shots due to someone going through my lane wrong, at what point do I actually become legally liable for injuries sustained to another person? What about morally liable?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How many hits can someone actually take to the throat/adam's apple before the windpipe can swell shut?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



An uneducated uninformed consumer is a companies best friend
An uneducated uninformed player is the Games worst nightmare.

For every question I find an answer for I get 2 more unanswered. My list is getting longer not shorter.

Rogue made a comment in one of his threads that the companies were controlling the sport. Thats not true the player does. I was wrong. That can change.

From near as I can tell ANSI ASTM means nothing.
This game is truely on the edge.


WE HAVE TO ORGANIZE TO REGAIN CONTROLL


__________________
Beemer

[DogHouseDan]

Nice pipe dream gentlemen, but change will only come if they get hurt in the wallet. Money is driving this sport in this direction and money will be the only thing to stop it.

Example: A player at a major event gets over shot bad, in a bunker move. He goes to the referring staff to complain and nothing happens. He goes to Hospital and takes pictures. Then he calls his favorite ambulance chaser and sets up a lawsuit. They call a press conference; show pictures (And you all know how nasty some hits can look). They state to the news media that they are suing the Marker manufacturer, Hopper maker and event promoter for negligence. All it takes is a video of one player shooting over 20 BPS on the news and a lawsuit.

The Insurance Company’s will see this and freak. Changes will then be made faster then any newbee can pull a trigger at 20 balls per second. This is not the way I want to see it happen, but it will probably be the only way it gets accomplished.

Now if the powers that be see this potential, they may step in early and do something. Until then you can chase BPS Monster if you want, but I choose not to.

[Spaceman613]

"BPS monster" whats he look like? Somehow I invision a cross between Bob Long and a muppet.

ok, Im mental today..... *screams*

[Miltonyz]

What level of injury of death is acceptable before we need to put on a cap. And don't give me zero unless you don't play baseball, football, golf, rec softball, etc. etc.

The problem I see is the limiting based on what "might" happen. We can't protect against every concievable thing that might happen.

I say no more woodsball. It's way to dangerous. To many chances of catching and breaking an ankle on roots, not to mention the possibility of people impaling themselves on trees. But sadly it's going to take a death to ban woodsball.

And last week I saw a kid slide into a tire bunker hard. If he had slid head first, he could have broken his neck. No more sliding or tires I say.

Unlikely yes but probably more likely then I'm gonna catch 15 balls in the neck and die.

[Beemer]

As a tourney producer which I also do I like the high rates of fire because it brings in alittle money, and don't even kid your self because paintball isn't a high profit industry. Basically it is high entry prices, poor tourneys, or high paint sales. You have to pick one, and I think most players would prefer high paint sales any day, and that takes faster rates of fire.

The BPS count is going to keep rizing, and I for one am glad

Ya anything that affects your bottom line, huh, screw safty
you are making $$$$$$$$ or you wouldnt be doing it



Nice pipe dream gentlemen, but change will only come if they get hurt in the wallet. Money is driving this sport in this direction and money will be the only thing to stop it.

Example: A player at a major event gets over shot bad, in a bunker move. He goes to the referring staff to complain and nothing happens. He goes to Hospital and takes pictures. Then he calls his favorite ambulance chaser and sets up a lawsuit. They call a press conference; show pictures (And you all know how nasty some hits can look). They state to the news media that they are suing the Marker manufacturer, Hopper maker and event promoter for negligence. All it takes is a video of one player shooting over 20 BPS on the news and a lawsuit.

The Insurance Company’s will see this and freak. Changes will then be made faster then any newbee can pull a trigger at 20 balls per second. This is not the way I want to see it happen, but it will probably be the only way it gets accomplished.

Now if the powers that be see this potential, they may step in early and do something. Until then you can chase BPS Monster if you want, but I choose not to.

Sad but true. Also there is only ONE Insurance company near as I can tell.

[Brophog]

I think that's the point we're ultimately asking.

How much is too much?

Is it 14, 20, 30....

And I think you bring up a good point. We do need to be proactive here. Remember the past. Meph brought up a good point about "Well we can't shoot 13 bps anyhow... We need to learn that just because its not happening now, doesnt mean it won't happen in the future. If we could have foreseen people shooting 20 bps back then, I assure you there would have been a bigger push to enforce the 13bps limit that was agreed upon at that time.

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

I say the bps should stop here. Slap a 25-30 bps cap on all guns. Its still insanely fast, but that will ensure no progression. Now, instead of companies concentrating on making a faster gun, they will make guns more reliable and more efficient, and work on lenses that can sustain a 30+bps string. Will it happen? no. But it would be nice. I am seriously getting to the point that I am scared to walk onto the field because guns are getting so fast. I was playing hyperball a few weeks ago with the field sponsored team, and when I'd get shot out, I'd always have at least 5 balls on me, and I am close friends with these guys, but you literally just have to tap the trigger now and you get a nice long string of shots. I admit, I am guilty of it too, and right now it's bad, but when guns get faster, it will be even worse. Mask technology is going nowhere, guns are getting faster, hoppers are faster, people are getting overshot. I don't feel safe getting shot once in the mask, but if i poked my head out and got about 15 in the lens, that might leave a mark. I figure eventually, guns will get so fast, they will either not have any regulators to keep up with them, no hoppers fast enough, or it will simply be limited by the law of physics, because an object can only move so fast. The question is, where is the limit. If they somehow got a hopper to feed 80 balls per second, could they get a gun to do it?

[bryceeden]

Beemer read my whole post not just the part that makes me look like a bad guy. On another note mask technology is getting better, the shereical shape of V-force lenses makes impact actually strenthen them. Bottom line is that statisticaly right now WITH 20+bps going paintball has half the injuries of bowling. I like the added adrenaline rush of fast marker, and I avidly play speedball, tourneys, woodsball, scenarios, and everything in between. I think the people who don't like the speed are the loud minority in this case, and even some of you like to shoot fast. I just don't really see what the problem is, the safty stuff is bull so it must be over shooting, and I don't see much overshooting in rec ball(at least around here)because most people cann't aford the paint unless they have a good sponsorship. I hate to say this and sound like PBnation, but if you are so afraid of overshooting don't play high level tournements.

[automag223]

Originally posted by fallout11
(such as rate of fire caps, ammo limitations, or restricted "classes") or a accidentally or naturally occuring one remains to be seen.


i think this is a good idea...i think that people won't be fireing at 20bps if you don't let them carry a case of paint onto the feild...make a limit that one person can carry up to say 600 extra rounds onto the feild...if that person wants to go out there and still fire at 20 bps then let them and they will run out of paint in a matter of minutes...

i also like the idea of different classes...

[Miltonyz]

I disagree with the danger mark. I beleive you guys are going pretty far out to find possible scenarios to prove it's danegrous. As I pointed out above through examples you can use this reasoning to outlaw anything you do not approve of.

People keep talking about how gun technology is improving so far. In my mind safety technology has improved. The fact is if you feel the need for it you can purchase goggles with safety straps and helmets, neck guards that more then adequetly protect the throat, and other safety pieces.

The only thing that really irks me is the fact that we should limit everybodies gun's because YOU don't feel safe. If you have such a problem with it play with people who shoot slower, find a league that agrees with your principals, but trying make rules that effect everybody for your own gain is greedy.

[Brophog]

bryceeden,

Since your one pulling for BPS and providing the reason that you enjoy the rush, then answer my question.

How much is too much. Or is there?

[JuggaloDave]

It will get to the point with the padding that ppl will have to take it off for the turnys. it would be too hot and could could cause heat stroke. then others would take note how much easyer it is to play without padding maybe and would forget about it.

The bps, i think it will be a thing where it will slowly weed itself out of major style, and no one marker will be able to really fire faster than the others. the old 17-20bps stuff will eventually be old and unwanted by the big timers, and it will become cheap enough for kingman to massmarket a 100-200$ marker that is caple of keeping up with "the big boys." Places would have to start a price war there after; there will a point like in computers now, there fast, almost to fast some of them, now all they need to do is become cheaper and more realiable. And with the cheaper more relieable guns, the industry would prosper from ppl being able to afford better equipment, could play more, get more friends to play cause of the lower costs, and i would think more tournys would pop up, as well as feilds. The sport would slowly become much more acceptable to ppl cause there will be kids with parents who understand that it is safe, and a good thing for there sons/daughters to be into cause not only does it encourage team work, team building and comunication skills, but also reading, cause they kids will love reading the pball mags and if the kids reading anything at all, it would a big improvment over nothing.

yeah i know, i am a dreamer, but soooooooo whut lol.

J.D.

[bryceeden]

Originally posted by Brophog
bryceeden,

Since your one pulling for BPS and providing the reason that you enjoy the rush, then answer my question.

How much is too much. Or is there?

I don't think markers can get much faster than they are. We are currently reaching a peak where the markers mecanically and electronically cann't go much faster without flat out full auto or bursts, I think trigger bounce has found its peak. But to answer your question I have been on the receiving end of 80BPS from a scenario game marker that was several E-spyders sodered into a single frame, and it was cool, so I personnally don't think there is too much, but for the sport side I think it will and should stay about where it is now.

[Brophog]

Thanks for the reply.

So would you be against an imposed cap of 14 bps. The game would be unchanged, yet it would provide an end to several of these arguments.

I do have to disagree a bit on your statement of " if you don't like high ROF, then stay out of tourney ball". That's not an exact quote, but that is close I believe.

Your right with that quote....for now. However, we know that this will trickle down into rec ball. Especially with the influx of youth in the game now, they really look up to the pros. They read the magazines and buy the videos that are full of pros shooting high end guns. They want to be like them, and typically upgrade their gear when they can afford to do so.

This has created, in areas of the country, some conflict. Not all people like the high ROF and some have quit the sport because of it. So, in some places, its not as easy just to say, stay away from tourneys. Obviously, as we have already seen, the longer we continue to have these arms races, the more that trickle down effect continues into the rec and scenario sides.


Just a thought.

[Tyger]

Originally posted by Miltonyz

Unlikely yes but probably more likely then I'm gonna catch 15 balls in the neck and die.

How quickly the world forgets.

Shatnerball 2, ok, the guy didn't die, but I'll bet he felt like he wishes he did. Took a string to the back of the head and was knocked COLD. The final battle was placed on hold for 5 minutes while they attended to the fallen.

My source was a ref, who told me someone was out cold, and the other guys who filled in the rest later.

That was a small string, and an accident. He leaned into a string being shot by a guy behind him. Now let's say it's intentional. Footage I've seen from X-ball and NPPL leads me to believe it's "common" to get shot 5+ times point blank for each player that runs past you.

Now let's introduce a guy who's just angry at how the game is going, and he'l make the guy he bunkers pay for it. point blank, he rips a 3 second string with all he's got from 2 or less feet away. A myopic ewok couldn't miss at that range. So, being kind, 3 seconds, 15 Bps, 45 balls, point blank, into a player's head/neck. Now if we 'up' that to 30, that's upwards of 90 balls, point blank.

This is one of those times I don't want to be able to say "I told you so." Because when the first person dies or is so injured they can no longer work because of a paintball game, you know the government will step in. And they won't care if they destroy the game to keep you safe while playing it.

-Tyger (If this makes no sense, wait a while.)

[Meph]

Originally posted by bryceeden


I don't think markers can get much faster than they are.

Know how many times in paintball's history this has been said?

And how suddenly it gets bumped faster only for people to then say AGAIN "It can't get any faster than it currently is."
How many times must this cycle as well repeat itself? People used to think a pump handle on their bolt action 007 was the fastest they'd ever shoot!

Now the thing is, I'm not saying limit paintball to 5bps to keep people safe. Or to ban padding all together. But rather there flat out MUST be some strict guidelines, and actually have them enforced. Remember 1 fire per trigger pull? Remember no baggy clothing? Remember semi only boards?
What ever happened to these regulations? How much must be sacrificed and ignored just for sheer profit? What's it going to take before it's too late (if not already)?

Hell I'm still waiting for a real referee organization that has an adequate amount of trained staff for the events. Even that seems to be too hard to get, let alone anything else. I know I'm not the only one who hates to hear of people being picked off the street or at-event volunteers with "NO EXPERIENCE NECESSARY" as the OFFICIAL Referee staff. Think it's fair to the players?


Oh, and I'm sure that kid who got overshot 12 times in the head in PanAm and sent to the hospital think's it's unlikely too, eh? If there had been actual regulations being enforced do you think this would've happened to this degree?

Kind of ironic I feel. The same community who keeps on complaining about how woodsball is "ruining paintball's image" and keeps preaching about the 1998 safety statistics..... are the same people who push that very boundary of safety to give the media and other sources more anti-paintball fuel.


I'll put it this way. If we don't properly police ourselves like we currently have been this past 21 years. You're REALLY not going to like when an outside party FORCES us into what they feel policing the industry should be, no matter what it costs in loss of sales or loss of players to the game.

[Miltonyz]

Took a string to the back of the head and was knocked COLD.
Nope never heard of it and frankly it doesn't throw my opinion off a whole lot.
I know of that fellow that Lasoya shot and now this guy. That brings it up to two. How many instances of this has occoured? And how many instances should there be before we change the rules?


Now let's introduce a guy who's just angry at how the game is going, and he'l make the guy he bunkers pay for it. point blank, he rips a 3 second string with all he's got from 2 or less feet away. A myopic ewok couldn't miss at that range. So, being kind, 3 seconds, 15 Bps, 45 balls, point blank, into a player's head/neck. Now if we 'up' that to 30, that's upwards of 90 balls, point blank.

Now you are introducing hypotheticals that involve players malicously breaking the rules. In that instance the problem wasn't the gun it was the player. In any sport the chance of injury increases dramatically when you start breaking the rules. The trick is to make the cost for cheating greater then any possible benefit. I could suggest the banning of bats in baseball using the argument that in 3 seconds an upset batter could club and injure a pitcher.

In reality this doesn't affect me too much, I couldn't reach 14 bps on my best day and I'm willing to guess that very few people can. But I think those who can have an advantage that should not be taken away

[coolcatpete]

Originally posted by Tyger


How quickly the world forgets.

Shatnerball 2, ok, the guy didn't die, but I'll bet he felt like he wishes he did. Took a string to the back of the head and was knocked COLD. The final battle was placed on hold for 5 minutes while they attended to the fallen.

My source was a ref, who told me someone was out cold, and the other guys who filled in the rest later.

That was a small string, and an accident. He leaned into a string being shot by a guy behind him. Now let's say it's intentional. Footage I've seen from X-ball and NPPL leads me to believe it's "common" to get shot 5+ times point blank for each player that runs past you.

Now let's introduce a guy who's just angry at how the game is going, and he'l make the guy he bunkers pay for it. point blank, he rips a 3 second string with all he's got from 2 or less feet away. A myopic ewok couldn't miss at that range. So, being kind, 3 seconds, 15 Bps, 45 balls, point blank, into a player's head/neck. Now if we 'up' that to 30, that's upwards of 90 balls, point blank.

This is one of those times I don't want to be able to say "I told you so." Because when the first person dies or is so injured they can no longer work because of a paintball game, you know the government will step in. And they won't care if they destroy the game to keep you safe while playing it.

-Tyger (If this makes no sense, wait a while.)

THis happens with every sport that someone is injured and cant ever play again. for an example football. Paintball has the least injuries of any sport so once it get commercialized it will be closer to the other sports with injuries. It is more of a play at your own risk. I dont know to many ballers that get pissed at a newb and lets off a 3sec string at them so.. It comes down to the higher leagues and they chose top play that and they had to sign liability waviers for a reason and they say play at your own risk. So it is up to the players on paintballs fate
Pete

[Cyberious]

The only ones who attain the really fast ROF's in tourneys (for any length of time that is) are the back guys. (I know I'm one.) Wouldn't it be interesting though to have the following rules.

- 240-250 fps max (you'd need to get close or goggle everyone).
- No ROF limit except must be semi.
- An empty hopper at the start of the game.
- Only allow 3-4 pods.
- No one allowed to share paint.

[Tyger]

Originally posted by Miltonyz

I know of that fellow that Lasoya shot and now this guy. That brings it up to two. How many instances of this has occoured? And how many instances should there be before we change the rules?

I wouldn't know. But isn't two enough? I mean, come on. I'm not 100% sure of the "LaSoya" incident either, becasue I've read at least 5 versions of "What happened". the truth is in there somewhere, but I don't have the inclination to muck it out.


Originally posted by Miltonyz

Now you are introducing hypotheticals that involve players malicously breaking the rules. In that instance the problem wasn't the gun it was the player. In any sport the chance of injury increases dramatically when you start breaking the rules. The trick is to make the cost for cheating greater then any possible benefit. I could suggest the banning of bats in baseball using the argument that in 3 seconds an upset batter could club and injure a pitcher.

And, as we all know, paintball players always obey the rules. Especially at high-profile tournaments. Nobody overshots, or teaches the other team a lesson with "Bonus Balls", or ever takes out frustration on the other team unnessarily by shooting who they deem as a cheater 5-10 times more than nessary. And nobody would ever dream of overshooting the other team to intimidate them. Oh perish the thought.

Your argument holds no merit, as there are reprecussions for batters who use a bat on a pitcher. Jail time for starters (Assault...) Not to mention league fines, suspension, and so on. Remember a few years back a hockey player was ARRESTED after using his stick to hit an opponent. All of hockey was appaled, but the policeman who watched it felt justified to file charges.

I'd like to see someone in paintball be suspended from a tournament for overshooting. It won't happen. That being said, "play at your own risk" still does not indemnify the officials or the organisers from responsibility if a preventable injury happens due to neglegance. If I'm paying to play, I'd like to know a part of my money is going to keep me safe, if even from the idiocy of other players. If I'm incapacitated because an official will not, or by the rules in place CAN NOT step in, or I am injured becasue the rules do not punish players that act in an unsafe manner and thereby discourage dangerous behavior, you better believe I'm taking all actions against ALL involved for loss.

(Blanket lawsuit. You sue the organisers, the team / player, the maker of the gun, possibly the officials for refusing to take action or taking negligent action, and if you feel up to it, the venue, paint manufacturer, and so on. That's how lawsuits like that work, and it's why lawyers are so expensive....)

The attitude of "Boys will be boys" will not float when you put paintball on TV all the time.


Originally posted by Miltonyz
In reality this doesn't affect me too much, I couldn't reach 14 bps on my best day and I'm willing to guess that very few people can. But I think those who can have an advantage that should not be taken away

I thought so too, till someone handed me an intimidator with debounce set to 1. 5 seconds of raking the trigger later, I averaged 18 BPS over 5 seconds. Az can get it over 22. I don't see a purpose to it, other than wasting paint.

-Tyger

[GT]

You unlimted BPS guys need to ask a non-pb buddy at work, over 21 please, about ROF and what they can be hit with. Now that wonderful expression they show will be the same seen in civil court from folks of all ages and colors once the first lawsuit and/or death occurs.

I can guarentee that paintball will loose. Piss and moan about how badass you think you are at 20bps becuase that time is slowly changing.....

If the industry had any brains at all they would introduce "rookie" style tourny classes with some industry limits on thier rigs. More people playing the game more money, but most industry people are just to stupid to see past the current flock of "stunna's" at the local feild/tourney.

yO! yO! yO! yO! cHeCk OuT mY nEw GaT, It'S fAt, AiGhT!


jb

[Miltonyz]

Your argument holds no merit, as there are reprecussions for batters who use a bat on a pitcher. Jail time for starters (Assault...) Not to mention league fines, suspension, and so on. Remember a few years back a hockey player was ARRESTED after using his stick to hit an opponent. All of hockey was appaled, but the policeman who watched it felt justified to file charges.

My point with the cost/benefits statement in my last post is that we should follow the standard as set above. I don't believe we should put a limit on shooting speeds, we should punish the crap out of those players who use it to "punish" others.


But isn't two enough?

Two injuries are imho not enough to add such a rule. I don't know what number to set. I do know that two people getting knocked unconsious would barely be a blip on the radar of other sports.

[Brophog]

Its as simple as this folks.

Any one of you that can't stand to have a marker under about 15 bps (easy math) is just kidding yourselves.

A paintball traveling at 300 fps:

At 300 feet, those balls are only 20 feet apart.
At 100 geet, those balls are only 6 2/3 feet apart.
At 50 feet, those balls are only 3 1/3 feet apart.

Most paintball eliminations are at about 50 feet. I know, some are longer, but this is easy math again.
Those balls are 3 1/3 feet apart. That's 40 inches from each other and they are each traveling at 300 fps. They are (1/15) .067 seconds apart. Each of those balls will travel that 50 feet in .167 seconds (50/300).

I don't care how fast you are, your not running through that. Best case scenario is your running directly perpendicular to that stream. Most of the time that is not the case, making those times even shorter.

Say your the fastest athlete in the world and you run a 4.0 forty yd dash. (I know, your fast!) That's 120 feet in 4 secs. that's 30 feet a sec. Your the fastest man in the world and your 1/10 the speed of a paintball!

So to run through that stream, you need to go the length of your shoulders, approximately to clear the path. Lets say 2 feet. Its going to be longer, because your knees and arms are sticking out, your head is down, you have to clear your pack... but 2 feet will do here.

Ok. You travel 30 feet a sec (at a dead sprint mind you). You need to go 2 feet. That will take you 1/15 of a second, or .067 sec. (Funny how this all works out. Almost like its planned!) So, if you time it absolutely perfectly and cross the stream absolutely perpendicular, you can get through that stream by a cat whisker.

Now, tell me exactly why you need more than 15 bps. No one here is saying to take away semis or electros. We're saying that enough is enough. Don't buy into the hype that you need more than that to compete.

[bryceeden]

Originally posted by Brophog
Thanks for the reply.

So would you be against an imposed cap of 14 bps. The game would be unchanged, yet it would provide an end to several of these arguments.



I would put it more around 17 for every thing exept the pro level and NXL, but yes I would suport it.

[Miltonyz]

Any one of you that can't stand to have a marker under about 15 bps (easy math) is just kidding yourselves

It's not that I can't stand a gun that slow. I've already admitted to having slow fingers.
It's that I can't stand that a relative few are trying to change the rules for all of us for what I see to be no legitimate reason. What do we do about guns that can currently shoot above 15? We are talking a complex process for what amounts to feel good legislation.

[Brophog]

You just not looking forward enough. Remember, this thread was started by looking in the past.

If you were a member of the past and wanted your game to remain the same (as most of you want it to), then you would make legislation to keep it that way.

We, in the past, didn't respect the idea of change enough to do what should have been done to keep the sport more movement, less control based. Someone always said, Dont worry, you can't shoot that fast. Why bother. These are the same arguments we are hearing now.

I would be surprised if 20 bps holds up as a relative top end speed for long. We will run into a problem of bolt/ball size ratios before too long, but someone will get past that.

The number one selling point right now is speed. The other myths have basically been busted, so speed is the one measurable quantity that manufacturers can market. Until speed stops selling, people will continue to promote it. The excuses of people not shooting fast enough and loaders not feeding fast enough are bunk people. Electronics are paving the way to the future, and electronics are getting around these obstacles. Don't be as naive and careless as we were in the past on this issue. Realize that these excuses don't hold water.

[bryceeden]

Originally posted by Brophog
Its as simple as this folks.

Any one of you that can't stand to have a marker under about 15 bps (easy math) is just kidding yourselves.

A paintball traveling at 300 fps:

At 300 feet, those balls are only 20 feet apart.
At 100 geet, those balls are only 6 2/3 feet apart.
At 50 feet, those balls are only 3 1/3 feet apart.

Most paintball eliminations are at about 50 feet. I know, some are longer, but this is easy math again.
Those balls are 3 1/3 feet apart. That's 40 inches from each other and they are each traveling at 300 fps. They are (1/15) .067 seconds apart. Each of those balls will travel that 50 feet in .167 seconds (50/300).

I don't care how fast you are, your not running through that. Best case scenario is your running directly perpendicular to that stream. Most of the time that is not the case, making those times even shorter.

Say your the fastest athlete in the world and you run a 4.0 forty yd dash. (I know, your fast!) That's 120 feet in 4 secs. that's 30 feet a sec. Your the fastest man in the world and your 1/10 the speed of a paintball!

So to run through that stream, you need to go the length of your shoulders, approximately to clear the path. Lets say 2 feet. Its going to be longer, because your knees and arms are sticking out, your head is down, you have to clear your pack... but 2 feet will do here.

Ok. You travel 30 feet a sec (at a dead sprint mind you). You need to go 2 feet. That will take you 1/15 of a second, or .067 sec. (Funny how this all works out. Almost like its planned!) So, if you time it absolutely perfectly and cross the stream absolutely perpendicular, you can get through that stream by a cat whisker.

Now, tell me exactly why you need more than 15 bps. No one here is saying to take away semis or electros. We're saying that enough is enough. Don't buy into the hype that you need more than that to compete.

You didn't take deceleration into your math, those ball don't get alot closer than the origanal 20'. The ball isn't going 300fps anymore at the 50' mark, I would say that the balls are ABOUT 12-15' apart at that 50', so while difficult to run through it is doable, and more often than not the paint that does hit you bounces off the baggy clothing that seems to be the other topic of this thread. I agree that if the baggy clothing went away the ROF could go down, but the two aren't going to change, how ever I would be the first to sign up for a tourney where only true semi was aloud(no trigger bounce) I actually do know people that can do 17+ bps on a ULT mag.

[Brophog]

I didn't take a lot into account. Vectors, deceleration, barrel accuracy, ball turbulence, windage, field conditions.... It wasn't meant for a science paper, it was meant to illustrate a very clear point that there is an upper threshold of effective bps.

They'll be closer than 12-15 feet apart. At 50 feet, you've still got some force to deal with as the ball will still be in a parallel plane with respect to the earth.

Thanks for noticing, but that's not the point. ;)

[Beemer]

If ya read the WHOLE thread you will under stand this.
Before I ever post in a thread I read the whole thing. Every POST and the whole post.

Repeat after me SAFTY. I played 1 tourny with just gogs and that was the first and last time I did That.It was very STUPID. Know how long that lasted 1/2 a season. They ruled you had to have a mask. Why for your SAFTY.

I played tourny ball for nine years so I have seen the changes.

When I started playing we were shooting 325fps and using uvex gogs. Why arent we still shooting 325???????? we LEARNED.

Repeat after me XSTREAM. I love speed look at my sig. I will gear up anyday anywhere against anybody. 300fps you got it, 30 bps you got it, lets throw in the bonus ball to thats fun right. Ill take it and dish it out if you win fine I aint a sore sport. But If I play that xstream my gear will be xstream to. you can use 3/32 lexon, Im using 1/8 plexiglass full face custom made xtream ware all the way around. Why, for my SAFETY.

The problem is this is all flowing to the rec field.
Kids dont have a clue on how to be safe. Whos fault, problem is that. Go read the gog threads again, my God theres players out there using cracked lenses.

The standards and guide lines that were set arent being used or followed. ANSI,ASTM mean nothing I have the sheets on gogs and guns, cost me 70$. PM me if ya wanna see them
Half these guns wouldnt pass an ADT[accidental discharge test]Im gonna have to start wearing my gogs all the time.

The spiral effect is on self distruct mode.

Meph Tyger and some others are right on. The rest need to be more informed. I may not be the most informed but I aint the least eather. In fact the more informed I get the sicker I get.

Oh ya all I could find is ONE count em ONE insurence co. that will cover paintball.
American PaintBall Ins. Co.
If you find another let me know.

Let me know when youre ready to play XSTREAM, Im in

Peace Out
Beemer

[Tyger]

Beemer : Show me the most informed person on this topic and I'll probabyl show you someone who doesnt play, but works for a science lab.

I think a lot of the problem is that paintball playrs now never HAD to suffer through a lot of the garbage we did back in the day. I cringe to think what 30 PBS looks like on UVEX goggles. Once you've been there, once you've seen what can happen, you tend to shy away from it.

I see it again. I remember the arguments andthe fights in the 90's about "No masks". The tournament folk wanted to stay without masks for multiple reasons. Insurance companies saw the risks, and said "no." Tey complained, but they put the masks back onto thier goggles.

Come to think of it, there's the sollution. INSURANCE COMPANIES. If they were to step in and say "We cap semi-auto guns to 12 BPS or you don't get insurance.", the players would whine about it to no end. BUT they would all step into form, and set the guns down to 12 BPS, and play anyway.

I wonder if we can have a very intense meeting with the insurance folks on this matter.

-Tyger

[Meph]

Originally posted by Miltonyz

It's that I can't stand that a relative few are trying to change the rules for all of us for what I see to be no legitimate reason. What do we do about guns that can currently shoot above 15? We are talking a complex process for what amounts to feel good legislation.


No legit reason? Would you consider that after injuries keep coming, and more severe to even include death. Then be it either a blanket lawsuit or just flat out after a lot of bad liberal media press that Paintball as a whole will have a larger problem. You simply can not see it beyond "Well I never heard of people getting hurt, so who cares?" So obviously of course since YOU never heard of it.... it's never happened! Guess goggles coming disloged from the frame after 8 consecutive paintballs smacking into it never happened either back in 2001. Guess last year at a smaller local event somebody trying to "be like Ollie" doing his superman dive didn't smack his head on the floor, making the goggles bump up and almost off his head completely leaving him open for that split moment to serious injury. And obviously since these never happened those 2 people, who are obviously the ONLY 2 who EVER got injured, isn't enough to warrant any time or real regulation.

Well guess what, with this back-turning mentallity eventually it'll be ignored and forgot about long enough to we will no longer be governing ourselves. And by then it will be too late to backpeddle and attempt to "Oh well I can settle with being capped at 14/15bps max" it'll be too late.

[fallout11]

Paintball is about to be BANNED in New York, because it is considered "too dangerous".
Did you know that?

Do you think this brass ballin' attitude, extreme playing, and heavy emphasis on how many times I can overshoot somebody with my 20+ BPS "mad skilz" is helping the image of paintball any?

Do you think wanna' be players (yes, newbies) would pay money to come out to a field to be blasted 5-10 times in rapid fire? If they do, think they'll be back?
This "sport" (and I use that term loosely) has reached a plateau, thanks largely to the kind of ignorant, don't worry about it attitudes I see displayed from some right here.

Sure, 7 million people played paintball in 2002.
But how many came back to play a second time?
Think anyone but the hard core fools will be back if all guns shot 30 BPS?

I've been playing for 17 years. Yes, that's right, before some of you were even a twinkle in your father's eye, and let me tell you straight: Paintball is on the road to destruction.
It's time to step in, and make some rules.

[fallout11]

And regarding serious injuries:

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

[bryceeden]

Beemer, Boston Insurance will cover paintball, I can think of a few more, but the reason there are so few is literally about image not about safty. I personallt think that the BPS is fine, but what should be, and in many cases is being, done is limit the velocity to 280FPS not 300FPS. That would do more, and (while still very complained about) be more accepted. I think that talking to the insurance companys hold 99% of the power in this topic, so if you really want a reasonalbe(17bps) cap you need to start a petition for it, and if you can get a few hundred signitures then send it to ALL insurence companies that cover paintball, this(if you had enough signatures) would put a cap on it.

And paintball is NOT on the road to destruction, their are a few places like New York who don't have the real stats(Paintball is considerably safer than Bowling) but on the national level it is going into the main stream, and I know of several City sponsored and run tourneys comming up soon, so I personally wouldn't wory about any path to destruction.

[Beemer]

Ok check out Boston. Is that a broker? See if it doesnt lead back to APL. American Paintball League Ins.[Bob Mcguire]

[GT]

Originally posted by Beemer

The problem is this is all flowing to the rec field.
Kids dont have a clue on how to be safe.

Great post. IF no one reads any of this post except the title and this quote you will understand what we, limt bps dudes, are talking about.

Like I said its just a matter of time......

[fallout11]

I feel a poll coming on.....

[bryceeden]

Someone go start a poll. I tell you guys what if you start a well thought out petiton to cap BPS at a reasonable number like 15-17bps I'll sign and help get signatures, but I think what you should do and would only take a little effort is get the insurance companies to ban ANY AND ALL trigger bounce, they already outlaw full auto and bursts I don't think it would take much to get rid of trigger bounce. That way every one is happy because you get lower rates of fire and uncapped markers.

[bryceeden]

Here is a link to a poll http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1259111#post1259111

Please go vote.

[fallout11]

Originally posted by fallout11
I feel a poll coming on.....

Thanks, Bryceeden!

[Miltonyz]

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

That is a horrible quote. Using that logic I could prove whatever little pet fancy that I care to propose.

If you want to claim something as true you have to include evidence that strengthens your position. If you can not find evidence to support your position, maybe you should rethink it, rather then hiding behind false quotes.

The burden of proof is on you.
High speeds are leading to more injuries is a opinion statement that holds no weight.
Saying that since high speeds have been attained overshooting injuries have gone up 20% according to insurance records would be a fact.

[Brophog]

Someone needs to get a hold of those facts....

We do know that every media outlet under the sun has been reporting an increase in paintball injuries.

Personally, I'd like to think it was more due to the rapid influx of players into the sport more than anything. I will say that the higher injuries are probably caused by the influx of youth in the sport. Not necessarily the kids fault, but kids make poor judgements. That's what makes them kids! You combine kids, lack of ref/supervision, and much higher ROF markers, and you have cause for alarm.

I totally agree that BPS limit is not a cure all. We need more organization in this sport and much better refs at all levels. This used to be a game played primarily by adults. Now, like it or not, we have much younger kids out there, 10-11 years old. Sorry to say, but 10 year olds act like 10 year olds. These 10 year olds have high end guns, but don't have high end judgement skills. That's a big problem that won't be solved with just slower guns or better refs, its gonna take both. Don't forget what one mad mama can do to a sport if she finds out junior was overshot!

[fallout11]

We've got members on AO admitting to playing with cracked goggles.

And players posing with barrel plug-less guns (complete with visible "I shot my own leg and foot" syndrome).

Obviously safety is not a high enough priority for many.
That hurts paintball as a whole.

[Meph]

Originally posted by Miltonyz
The burden of proof is on you.

Oh come on you know and I know that no matter how much proof is put on the table that you won't care or admit to it. There have already been numerous examples of how just ROF alone causes not only serious injury but major increased risk of injury. But apparently as more evidence keeps being added, you keep pushing it aside saying "It's not enough to convince me" well for your type it's never enough sadly.


Want proof that the media is against this game and will be more than happy to over-report any minor injury such as at Shatnerball? Look at the injury statistics and also look at the staticstics from 1998 safety, and from 2002 participation.

You watch the news, right? Back in 2001 when the 1998 stats came out. How many news channels covered that? How many at Prime time talked about how safe paintball was?

Back in 2002 when we reached 7 million, how many stations covered paintballs increased participation? Or last years' stats of 8+ million. How many news channels covered this?

Now look at today. One doctor talks about how there are more injuries yet does focus on STATISTICALLY that injury PER PARTICIPANT that injuries have decreased. Now go turn on the television what do you see?

Every single channel broadcasting PAINTBALL INJURIES ON THE RISE they never mention all the stats, only that # of injuries ALL TOGETHER (not per player) have trippled.

How many more of these biased media broadcasts can this industry take before somebody outside steps in? How many more reported injuries must be sustained? How much must be ignored and overlooked? The problem we have here is that if we do not police ourselves that WE WILL be policed. This is not a "oh it might happen, but doubtful" no this is a major problem that will happen if nothing is done about it. And the turning-a-blind-eye method is not something I'm personally in favor of.

[Miltonyz]

Oh come on you know and I know that no matter how much proof is put on the table that you won't care or admit to it. There have already been numerous examples of how just ROF alone causes not only serious injury but major increased risk of injury.


Nope. You have provided no evidence what so ever. I have seen two seperate incidences provided as proof. Two incidences is not a significant number. Rather then spending ten minutes telling me that I won't accept evidence, provide some.
If you can't provide evidence then I take it as an admission that you have none. And the above quote was a silly semantic game that tried to make me look hardheaded because I demand proof. Not some silly hypothetical situation, not two seperate instances over a year span. I demand statistically significant evidence.



One doctor talks about how there are more injuries yet does focus on STATISTICALLY that injury PER PARTICIPANT that injuries have decreased.

If this stat is true it does very little for your case at all. If per person paintball has gotten safer as more people have joined then obviously the current state of ROF is safe.

[fallout11]

So....to be the devil's advocate for a moment.

If I can provide sources that say categorically that paintball-related injuries have increased per player (percentage-wise),
Or as a "direct result of increased rates of fire" or a quote to that effect, you will accept that as categorical proof?

If so, I accept the challenge, and I'm on it.
If not, you're blind, and there's no point talking about it further.


Please keep in mind these are merely REPORTED injuries....as we all know not all paintball-related injuries are reported or documented.

In the same way that not all work-related injuries are reported for workers comp, and not all car-related accidents are reported to their owner's insurance companies.

In fact, I would hazard that the percentage of paintball-related injuries occuring but not being reported is on the rise, due to increasing pressures NOT to report them, for the reasons already discussed (fear of giving Pball a bad name, fear of lawsuits in a more lawsuit-prone society, fear of public outrage, etc.).

But I'll see what I can find.

[bunkermaster10]

Originally posted by fallout11
We've got members on AO admitting to playing with cracked goggles.


I play w/ a cracked lense does that make me a bad guy ...lol. Those suckers are strong. I am in the market for a new mask though....:)


If a league could come out w/ ONE hopper that fed about 17 bps and ever team HAD to use it that would be kool cause then everybody could keep there markers the same way but won't get any higher than 17bps. Think about it the NPPL REVY or whatever... They hand them out at games so you have to use them and then eventually everybody would want to buy one and eventually companies would come out w/ NPPL Hoppers or whatever. Its that simple.

[Lohman446]

I have to agree with Miltonyz here. You all have valid theories hypothetically, but more people sustain injuries from the field than from paintballs each year.

Face it - with however many million or billion paintballs shot last year there were only a handful of serious injuries (no clue on numbers) think of this as a ratio. Almost every place on a human body has been hit by a paintball, likely two or three, we have seen very little serious damage from it.

I do not support caps on marker speed (and thats a hard decision for me). One, it would mean all markers would be electronic, how are you going to reliably cap a mechanical marker? I do beleive one shot, one pull should be enforced and NO SHOT BUFFERING - this gray area is going to be what causes problems legally.

As for negligence, its a risk you take in any activity, thats why there is insurance. Fell playing paintball exposes you to it - take a personal liability policy (they are fairly cheap if you are just an individual not a business) or don't play. THere is not that much risk anyways especially if you are a player within the rules.

The risks in paintball (marker related under current speed conditions) are not that high. The cost of getting rid of those risks is not reasonable.

[bryceeden]

Originally posted by fallout11
So....to be the devil's advocate for a moment.

If I can provide sources that say categorically that paintball-related injuries have increased per player (percentage-wise),
Or as a "direct result of increased rates of fire" or a quote to that effect, you will accept that as categorical proof?

If so, I accept the challenge, and I'm on it.
If not, you're blind, and there's no point talking about it further.


Please keep in mind these are merely REPORTED injuries....as we all know not all paintball-related injuries are reported or documented.

In the same way that not all work-related injuries are reported for workers comp, and not all car-related accidents are reported to their owner's insurance companies.

In fact, I would hazard that the percentage of paintball-related injuries occuring but not being reported is on the rise, due to increasing pressures NOT to report them, for the reasons already discussed (fear of giving Pball a bad name, fear of lawsuits in a more lawsuit-prone society, fear of public outrage, etc.).

But I'll see what I can find.

Here is where to find the injury data. http://www.mpaintball.com/injury.php

This isn't all the info you need, but it is a start. Boston insurance has verified the numbers.

This is an old chart, I have a new one somewhere that shows per person paintball has gotten safer since then. The thing is paintball is growing faster than any sport in history, and with the growth in number of players the growth in number of injuries rizes. How many people where at Spplatt attack? it is all most garenteed with that many people that someone will get hurt, but it was only one person. The next case Lasoya(sp?) is known to shoot well above chrono limits and cheat in every way possible, so that kind of nullifies that one.

[fallout11]

That's actually not a bad idea, bunkermaster, as it's a different approach than any I've heard previously.

And Lohman446:
Miltonyz is dead wrong.

What if I said I COULD prove categorically that injury rates per paintball player were rising?

Would you agree then?
;)

I'll post it tomorrow. Work is over for the day now.

[bryceeden]

Originally posted by fallout11
That's actually not a bad idea, bunkermaster, as it's a different approach than any I've heard previously.

And Lohman446:
Miltonyz is dead wrong.

What if I said I COULD prove categorically that injury rates per paintball player were rising?

Would you agree then?
;)

I'll post it tomorrow. Work is over for the day now.

Yes, then I would agree, but I can prove they have gone down. If you guys want to make trigger bounce illegal, lets do it, it wouldn't be hard, but I still don't think a ROF cap(although not really even doable anymore) is the answer.

[bunkermaster10]

Seriously just think about it. It would be so easy to do. You can shot whatever marker you want but you have to use that hopper. So you can still have boucne settings but you won't be able to go over that max bps speed of the hopper.

[bryceeden]

Originally posted by bunkermaster10
Seriously just think about it. It would be so easy to do. You can shot whatever marker you want but you have to use that hopper. So you can still have boucne settings but you won't be able to go over that max bps speed of the hopper.

I agree, this is the best bps control idea I have ever heard.

[Beemer]

Do I have to say Chinese DownHill again.

The whole point is ANSI is voluntary.
Nobody is making them stick to it.

Call some gun companies and ask them if they conform to ANSI


semi-automatic mode marker—a semi-automatic
marker discharges one time with each trigger cycle. Markers
that “store” the number of trigger pulls and discharge more
than one paintball at some point do not meet this definition.
Markers that operate in any other discharge mode(s) do not
meet this definition.

[Miltonyz]

If I can provide sources that say categorically that paintball-related injuries have increased per player (percentage-wise)


Or as a "direct result of increased rates of fire" or a quote to that effect, you will accept that as categorical proof?

The first quote would have little impact on my current thinking.

The second would have to make me rethink my stance. The degree to which it moves me would depend on the size of the numbers of course. If 5 people got injured in part because of rof I wouldn't think much. If that number starts getting high I would have to rethink my stance.

While you are there do you think you could look up injuries that are not related to getting hit by the pball, such as broken bones, twisted knees, and the like?

[Brophog]

Sure its doable, assuming we're picking an arbitrary number in the 15-17 range.

Take away illegal bounces and RT's and there isn't a mechanical that will get that high.

The electros are easy to reprogram. You just have to do it.

It is however much more difficult than it was when we were talking about doing this over 10 years ago. That's the point. If you don't control it now, it will be even more difficult 10 years in the future when we're still having the same arguments.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by fallout11

And Lohman446:
Miltonyz is dead wrong.

What if I said I COULD prove categorically that injury rates per paintball player were rising?

Would you agree then?
;)

I'll post it tomorrow. Work is over for the day now.

I await that post with interest.

Let me say this though, you would have to show me that this is caused by excessive paint in the air and not by the more aggressive play of the players themselves - personally I think that more injuries can be attributed to the lack of a surrender rule (though having one is probably not possible given current attitudes) than the increase in rate of fire.

I think the increase in injuries is the movement towards a more competetive enviroment in both tournament and rec scenes (if it exists, I have not checked numbers). I beleive that I face a higher likelihood of injury than my backplayers because I play more aggressively than they do, be it from the field, or from a bunkering, or whatever. I know the risk of serious injury is there, we have managed that risk through certain precautions, goggle standards and chrono speeds. I make sure my own goggles are in good order as well as renters around me, others need to take that responsibility on themselves. If I was in a situation where proper chronograph procedures were not being followed to my standards, I would walk away from it. I beleive we have banned full auto as a safey concern, and am concerned with this shot buffering and bounce thing, but do not think limiting BPS is the way to do it. I personally think shot buffering and debounce to the degree used are already against the rules and should be banned - making new rules when we won't enforce the old ones will gain us nothing. I have accepted a degree of risk to playing, and am happy with that degree - I am much more likely to sustain injury driving to the field than I am playing the game.

[fallout11]

Sorry I was out of town for the weekend (and a miserable weekend to travel it was, too....)

But back to the issue.

As promised:

THEORY: Increasing rates of fire for paintball guns have made the game inherently more dangerous.

GIVEN:
A) During the period from 1998 through 2000, paintball marker rates of fire (and average BPS) increased dramatically (mainly tied to loader development).

B) Safety equipment (goggles, padding) in 2000 was at least as good as in 1998.

C) Other safety-related factors remained at least constant (field owners didn't add barbed wire to the field or new stumps, etc.)

PROOF:
From 1998 through 2000, the number of paintball players increased from 5.923 million to 7.121 million.
An increase of 20.2%.
Very respectible.

Source (http://www.paintballbusiness.com/stats.asp)

However, during the same period (1998 to 2000), the number of reported/documented injuries to paintball players increased from 926 to 2780.
An increase of 200.2%!

Source (http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/20722/8895/373978.html)


CONCLUSION:
So, in 2000, any given player was 2.5 times more likely to be injured playing paintball than in 1998.

Oddly enough, this coinsides pretty much precisely with the rate of fire increase that occured during the same period, as players moved from gravity drop loaders and 9 volt Revvy's, with a max rate of fire around 6 BPS, to Ricochets, 12 volt X-boarded revvies, halo A's, evolutions, and warp feeds, with BPS rates of 12 or more.

[fallout11]

With this said, let me say that I do not feel that paintball is inherently dangerous. It is still a safe sport. But I'd like it to stay that way. Bad PR is something this "niche market" cannot sustain a lot of.


And even though I've defended the pro BPS limit stance on this forum, I do tend to agree with Lohman that the prevailing attitudes of players that developed during the late 1990's, and the more aggressive play styles that came from this, probably do contribute heavily to the increase in injuries, and to a less "enjoyable" game for many.

But to my way of thinking, they are part and parcel with one another, going hand in hand. The days of the older and or more mature player, coupled with the slower rates of fire made for a less aggressive game, which, in turn, made for less chance for injury on the field. I do not lay the blame for this solely on technology, as a marker is merely an inanimate object. Players must be held accountable for their own actions.
We are where we are today, in this sport, largely due to our own inaction in the past, and largesse.

If the prevailing trends and "just let it ride" attitude of most are allowed to proceed, I fear not for the safety of the players so much as for the lack of an entertaining, fun, and exciting game.
As Lohman points out, we all know the risks, and accept them to play. I for one just do not want to see those risks become unacceptable, or publicized to the wrong people, or for the game to become stale and boring.
Who wants to watch or even participate in a sport that involves hunkering behind a blow-up bag, spraying 1800 rounds a minute at some other guy hunkered down behind a blow up bag a few feet away for 7 minutes?

Anyway, I've vented my spleen now, and will let it go at that. Spitting in the wind, as they say...

[bryceeden]

I had hoped that this tread would just die. That is also the point in time when speedball and extream players startd to really hit the mainstream of the sport. I don't think that that rise was due to rate of fire, but more due to a change in playing style.

[Beemer]

Originally posted by bryceeden
I had hoped that this tread would just die.

I didnt. There is still MORE not known and I will bring this back or start a new Thread.

Thanks fallout11

[Brophog]

I think that is a very good point Bryceeden. The more aggressive, no quarter style did appear in that time period as well.

That aggressiveness is not going away, so we must make the game as safe and foolproof as possible. Since people are now much more apt to get shot at point blank range, we must be able to limit the number of rounds used in such a situation.

You make safety rules for the extreme cases, not the ordinary ones. From a safety aspect, you want to make the game as safe as possible in the worst case scenario.

I do not feel like a reasonable bps cap interferes with the style of the game played today. It will, however, help keep injuries low in the future.

Like I've said all along, this is as much to do with forward planning as it has to do with anything. You must consider what is out there and past trends and see that the ROF will keep going up. Cap it now to a reasonable level before its too late.

[fallout11]

Well said.

[Beemer]

ditto on the post Brophog.

I still think rof is an issue, but it really only takes one shot to do the damage. I dont have all the facts yet.

Think of the worst welt you ever saw or had. Now think about 1, 2, 3 or even 6 of those to the back of the head and neck.

What happens to cause the welt? Broken blood vessels, damage to the area to cause bruseing internal bleeding or hemorrageing. Now think about this affecting your brain or spine and the hemorrageing going where it aint supposed to.
Then you can say ya I got this way from a headshot if you can say anything at all.

This was said from a field owner I talked to."you cant child proof the world"
This made me think.


From all the other people I have taked to I get this.
"Its not about safety, No body cares." Why do I keep hearing this?

This makes me sad.

Peace out
Beemer

[SaS]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DogHouseDan

Example: A player at a major event gets over shot bad, in a bunker move. He goes to the referring staff to complain and nothing happens. He goes to Hospital and takes pictures. Then he calls his favorite ambulance chaser and sets up a lawsuit. They call a press conference; show pictures (And you all know how nasty some hits can look). They state to the news media that they are suing the Marker manufacturer, Hopper maker and event promoter for negligence. All it takes is a video of one player shooting over 20 BPS on the news and a lawsuit.
QUOTE]

Sad truth, as stated many times before

It will take some serious pressure to change this stranglehold.

It's a money strangle hold.
Paintball componies support the events, we support them. If we change in a way to lower their income(lower paint expenditures) they could and probably would lower their support of our events.

"They won't give us money unless we give them more money" "they won't support us if we don't support them"

People won't stand for the lack of support for these events and will demand another change. So the rules, or whathave you, go back. Paint usage, or whathaveyou, goes up and the paintball companies raise their level of support again.

with that mentality, we as players are subject to whatever fate those companies see fit.

Solutions:
1. Non paintball affiliated sponsorship
2. non profit paintball programs. IF sponsored, can't be by paintball related compainies.
3. Public/media/legal pressure for change because the change will, hypothetically, lower their profits. Even if the change wouldn't effect them finacially, it would likely be seen as it would by the "profesionals" involved. ie. Executives, etc.

#3 will most certainly portray paintball in a negative light BUT is the most likely of them all to take place

[Lohman446]

This thread, this consideration resulted in a call to my insurance agent.

"I play paintball - do my standard policies cover me or do I need to expand a personal liability insurance to cover this?"

Him: "You are intentionally shooting another projectile at someone that may result in injury?"

Me: "Well no.. paintball is relatively safe... ummm hmm, yeh"

Him: "You are going to need a rider for this to be covered, there is no way you are currently covered for shooting a projectile intentionally at someone even if you do not intend to harm them."

Me: "Darn..."

Just for the record, I would play uninsured if it comes down to it, I think the risk of injury is extremely rare. However, if you were ever sued over it.. I think the intentionally shooting a projectile at someone, no matter how safe the sport may be, is going to hurt you.

[Beemer]

Been playing for 17yrs,From 12 gram to now seen it all and I've been saying "Hmmmm" thru it all. Welcome to the party.

This could be a start.



This standard is subject to revision at any time by the responsible technical committee and must be reviewed every five years and if not revised, either reapproved or withdrawn. Your comments are invited either for revision of this standard or for additional standards and should be addressed to ASTM International Headquarters. Your comments will receive careful consideration at a meeting of the responsible technical committee, which you may attend. If you feel that your comments have not received a fair hearing you should make your views known to the ASTM Committee on Standards, at the address shown below.

ASTM International, 100 Barr Harbor Drive, PO Box C700, West Conshohocken, PA 19428-2959,
United States.

I would be at this meeting in a heart beat. It would be a start of a trail. Not to mention the weight of the AMA might help to make em stick to the standards and guide lines. Lots of angles. Still working on knowing more.
Might not seem like much, but see what happens as soon as you mention ASTM and standards.

Beemer