Recall on 4.00 Beta

[Miscue]

Reports of full-auto problems have sprung up. I was unaware of these problems until the beta test. I believe it is similar to, and related with the FA issues we know about with 3.2... except in reverse... and 4.00 seems to pick this up. The magnetic field from the solenoid is messing with the HES sensor. I believe that solenoid wiring doesn't matter, it just determines which way it goes FA... trigger held or released.

I believe that every board is suspect to this problem... at random... some markers doing this more often than others.

Please discontinue use of 4.00 and have your boards reflashed to 3.2.

-Brian

[GT]

Miscue,
Is this a problem with the Selnoid being to large or HES to sensitive?

[Miscue]

I don't know... this is a hardware thing and more of an electrical engineering issue, and that's not my background. I believe AGD will be looking into this to further understand the problem.

[GT]

<------- not a software dood,

but does the sensativity around the HES increase when the bps limit is increased?

Is there away to measure "noise" around the sensor?

Is it possible to shield the HES or there devices that are containmanted?

Sorry if you cant answer all the q's but this makes me kinda concerned..

[Miscue]

All I know right now is... a FA issue is present and it reverses itself when the wires are switched... and that's about it. I'm just a software guy, and will be leaving this up to AGD to figure out what the next step is.

[Skoad]

gah, i guess this will push back a release date ;(

[1stdeadeye]

Was 4.0 actually Q1.0?

What was the difference between 4.0 and 3.2?

[ZAust]

so, will those of us with 4.0 be able to get a free flashing to 3.2, or will we have to pay fpr it? what happens if the gun goes full auto with 3.2 as well?

[sps16]

Originally posted by ZAust
so, will those of us with 4.0 be able to get a free flashing to 3.2, or will we have to pay for it?

well the flashing is free, you pay 20 bucks for shipping

[ZAust]

Originally posted by sps16

well the flashing is free, you pay 20 bucks for shipping

yeah i realized that after i posted.

i havent had any problems with 4.0, and ill stick with it until i do.

[gibby]

I haven't had any problems with mine either. But time will tell I guess.

However, with all these problems with the solenoid affecting the HES...couldn't we shroud the HES sensor with something that would block out the interference from the solenoid? Or is it that strong that no matter what we do, it will affect it either way?

[OfficerGoat]

I have a couple of ideas... I'm gonna play with it the next few days and see what we can find out :)

[pbzmag]

I haven't had any FA problems yet. Of course, I had slight FA issues before 4.0 and switched the solinoid wires around. Are the problems being reported by people who haven't switched their wires around before the upgrade?

[MantisMag]

Originally posted by Miscue
a FA issue is present and it reverses itself when the wires are switched

[hardr0ck68]

i dont get that? Isnt a problem reversing itself a good thing? I have cancer, i take pill b, the cancer reverses this is good no? Can i get clarification on reverses itself?

[pbguy888]

By reverse I think it means-one way its FA on the pull , and the other way its FA on the realease.

[MantisMag]

Originally posted by hardr0ck68
i dont get that? Isnt a problem reversing itself a good thing? I have cancer, i take pill b, the cancer reverses this is good no? Can i get clarification on reverses itself?

not if the cancer turns around and instead of getting bigger starts eating you.


Originally posted by Miscue
I believe that solenoid wiring doesn't matter, it just determines which way it goes FA... trigger held or released.

right there in miscue's first post.

[Tunaman]

I still have one beta marker out there that freakin' screams at 16bps and debounce set at 1. Maybe you could zero in on those numbers and just deviate a slight amount up and down. I think its too fast...no need to go that fast.:confused: ;)

[pbzmag]

Originally posted by pbguy888
By reverse I think it means-one way its FA on the pull , and the other way its FA on the realease.

I haven't gotten any FA on the release.

[Blazingace]

I have 4.0 on both the X and E mags. I have played with the E-mag this weekend. I noticed no FA issues. I was able to achieve 19 max with settings of DB 1 and BPS 19. I have tested the gun with and without air. With and without paint and have had no FA issues. I have the settings on the most sensitive and it has preformed flawlessly. It is an older e-mag with an X-valve and AGD 72/45 Flatline set to 850. It originally had 1.37 and was updated to 4.0 last week. I have not messed with the X-mag and the 4.0. I will be working with that this week and see what happens. We will see. I am incredibly happy with it. I really, honestly don't want to go back to 3.2.

[NoFearPaintballer]

i know this is off topic but how much is getting your board flashed?

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Blazingace
I have 4.0 on both the X and E mags. I have played with the E-mag this weekend. I noticed no FA issues. I was able to achieve 19 max with settings of DB 1 and BPS 19. I have tested the gun with and without air. With and without paint and have had no FA issues. I have the settings on the most sensitive and it has preformed flawlessly. It is an older e-mag with an X-valve and AGD 72/45 Flatline set to 850. It originally had 1.37 and was updated to 4.0 last week. I have not messed with the X-mag and the 4.0. I will be working with that this week and see what happens. We will see. I am incredibly happy with it. I really, honestly don't want to go back to 3.2.

:( EMI... LOL. :(

[NoFearPaintballer]

if the people who got 4.0 wait till the new version comes out will they get to upgrade for free?

[USAF-Flyboy with a Mag]

Originally posted by NoFearPaintballer
i know this is off topic but how much is getting your board flashed?

Free...you just need to pay the return shipping...I believe it's 20 bucks?

[NoFearPaintballer]

even if you dont have v4

[OfficerGoat]

I think I may have a resolution on this. I need to do some more testing this weekend and I'll give everyone details at that time.

:D

[Miscue]

Originally posted by OfficerGoat
I think I may have a resolution on this. I need to do some more testing this weekend and I'll give everyone details at that time.

:D

Hurm. Shielding and/or compensating magnet is what I was thinking. Sound about right?

[OfficerGoat]

Eggghghhhhghghghg!!! WRONG!!! :D

Something far simpler actualy.

[MicroMiniMe]

Originally posted by OfficerGoat
Eggghghhhhghghghg!!! WRONG!!! :D

Something far simpler actualy.
More elves?
:)

[big echo]

i got 4.0 at the n cali vs s cali event shot the hell out of it sence then and i have no problem with it. It will only go fullauto when i hit the 2 buttons in the back of the grip frame this is natural fight.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by big echo
i got 4.0 at the n cali vs s cali event shot the hell out of it sence then and i have no problem with it. It will only go fullauto when i hit the 2 buttons in the back of the grip frame this is natural fight.

? How does that make it go FA?

[gibby]

Hrm...I haven't taken an EE course since...well...forever. I can't really say I'm an expert but I was wondering...putting the board in "manual" mode and tripping the HES, since the solenoid isn't being activated, how does the board handle the excess voltage? I would assume the HES just sends a signal? Or does this actually complete the circuit that allows the voltage to travel through the board? Can the excess voltage trip another signal?

Don't laugh if I sound completely clueless! LOL! :D

On a side note, I tweaked my trigger the other day and I still don't get the FA problem. However, the only time I do get this problem is if the battery is low on power but it isn't enough to actually pull the solenoid. It just sends a bunch of low pulses. But from what I can remember, this was discussed at the CA meet but totally forgot the explanation of why that happens.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by gibby
Hrm...I haven't taken an EE course since...well...forever. I can't really say I'm an expert but I was wondering...putting the board in "manual" mode and tripping the HES, since the solenoid isn't being activated, how does the board handle the excess voltage? I would assume the HES just sends a signal? Or does this actually complete the circuit that allows the voltage to travel through the board? Can the excess voltage trip another signal?

Don't laugh if I sound completely clueless! LOL! :D

On a side note, I tweaked my trigger the other day and I still don't get the FA problem. However, the only time I do get this problem is if the battery is low on power but it isn't enough to actually pull the solenoid. It just sends a bunch of low pulses. But from what I can remember, this was discussed at the CA meet but totally forgot the explanation of why that happens.

The HES is connected to an I/O pin of the microcontroller. Another I/O pin goes out to trigger the solenoid. The controller handles the logic of figuring out what to do with the HES signals... and telling the solenoid to turn on and off... I'm a bit confused with what you're asking, hope this helps.

[USAF-Flyboy with a Mag]

I was just wondering. Who has 4.0 that is actually experiencing a full auto problem ------>WITH THE BATTERY FULLY CHARGED<-------. I'm not talking about slowly pulling the trigger searching for a sweet spot with the debounce at 1, but you pull the trigger and it goes full auto.

[gibby]

Originally posted by Miscue


The HES is connected to an I/O pin of the microcontroller. Another I/O pin goes out to trigger the solenoid. The controller handles the logic of figuring out what to do with the HES signals... and telling the solenoid to turn on and off... I'm a bit confused with what you're asking, hope this helps.
I guess the confusion is with whether the HES completes the current or if it just sends out a signal to the board to process. I was thinking if it did complete the circuit that the power that travelled through wasn't being expended completely because the board was in manual mode(solenoid turned off)..so the excess power might have caused another signal to be raised?

But from what you said, it just raises a signal...so nevermind...LOL! :)

[Da1spaz247]

So, any progress on the software?

[USAF-Flyboy with a Mag]

Bumping this again...Is anyone actually experiencing the Full Auto as I described above?

[f3rr3+]

and am i the only one waiting for officer goats reply?

[RoadDawg]

Well mine has had a full auto issue. It is only when the safety is on and no air. When I shot air through it, it didn't have any FA issues. Just thought it was kinda weird.

(YES Flyboy I charged the battery fully) :D

[USAF-Flyboy with a Mag]

Originally posted by RoadDawg
Well mine has had a full auto issue. It is only when the safety is on and no air. When I shot air through it, it didn't have any FA issues. Just thought it was kinda weird.

(YES Flyboy I charged the battery fully) :D


HAD or HAS?

[RoadDawg]

Well I just messed around with it today and it was going FA w/o air and the safety on but with air it went away. Kinda wierd.

[USAF-Flyboy with a Mag]

With your safety on it was doing this? Did you put your safety back together correctly? Well if it doesn't do it with air...good to go

[RoadDawg]

The safety was installed by Tato so I'm hoping it is correct. It keeps the gun from firing. It was more or less the board was saying that it was firing and the noid was going nuts. Oh and DB setting was 10. Went 1-10 with same results and same with the ROF (adjusted it from 8-26). Seems to work now though. Kinda odd.

[RoadDawg]

Well I had another wierd issue with FA. It wasn't going FA by sweetspotting til I reinstalled my Warp link cable. Now that I've unhooked it, it still goes FA. Just wierd I say. Might have to send mine in for a tune up.

[USAF-Flyboy with a Mag]

hahaha Goodness Nick...what on Earth are you doing with your E-mag?!?!?!?!?! :D

[OfficerGoat]

Sorry guys... between work, working on a car and working on a server I havent had much time to post.

So you know what my deal is ... I'm shooting an emag with one of the newer versions of the software... 4.01. The behavior I get is if I shoot a fast string the gun will sometimes go full auto run away.(I.E. it fires without the trigger pulled... =VERY BAD) Even with air and paint.

I have pretty much worked out what is going on and have been able to significantly reduce but not eliminate this issue. (I used to be able to make the gun go FA at will with less than three pulls.. now it takes a lot of roping on the gun to get it to happen) I have several experiments I want to conduct on this... and when I do come up with a solution that I think will work .. I'll let you know :)

Anyone got some spare emag parts they want to donate to science? ;) heh

[USAF-Flyboy with a Mag]

Isn't that just the shot buffering discharging the gun from shots it had stored in the buffer? Or are you saying that u start walking the trigger..and after u get a string going u will hold the trigger back and it will just continue to stay in run away?

[Miscue]

Originally posted by USAF-Flyboy with a Mag
Isn't that just the shot buffering discharging the gun from shots it had stored in the buffer? Or are you saying that u start walking the trigger..and after u get a string going u will hold the trigger back and it will just continue to stay in run away?

No. It's an issue with the solenoid triggering the HES on its own.

[USAF-Flyboy with a Mag]

Originally posted by Miscue


No. It's an issue with the solenoid triggering the HES on its own.

Okay so an EMI issue...Jim and I should finally get a chance to check some stuff out this weekend on our guns and some emi supression measures.

[jeffremiller]

So could this be fixed by redesigning the little plastic HES enclosure with a similiar part, shielded on three sides?

If so, what makes a decent magnetic barrier? other than lead....

J_

[Swede X-mag]

1st i dont have 4.0 on my x-mag but i do have this full auto issue with no gas on in e-mode with 2.21 software.

If this is a solenoid/HES problem then why is the recommendation to go back to 3.2?

If the solution in 3.2 and earlier software’s was to flip the solenoid wires why won’t it work on 4.0 when this code is just a more effective software with some extra gadgets. I’ve read some wear that the Q1.0 (4.0) triggered the HES on the return stroke. Then if you go from 3.2 to 4.0 and you experience no full auto issues on 3.2 you would most likely get it on 4.0. Because of the reversed triggering on the HES. Either there is some fault in the 4.0 code or flipping the solenoid wires in 3.2 didn’t completely solve the full auto problem. I don’t want to offend any one by claiming that the code in 4.0 is wrong but I just want to know why the recommendation is to go back to 3.2.

Just spank me if im wrong. Im from sweden you know.:D

[Joni]

Swede X-mag
Varifrån är du? Var brukar du spela?

(Translation for nosy people :D: Where in Sweden do you live ?)

[miked]

just a little food for thought... I recently worked on a magnetic pickup at work. The one I worked on is used with the tachometer of a helicopter. when an iron object passes in front of the sensor it generates a current on the wires and ultimately creates a signal across a resistor. I don't know what the HES is in actuality but I do know that if its resistively terminated on the board end any current or noise spike can cause a trigger condition. in other words if a high current source like the solenoid were to trigger you could theoretically couple noise onto the HES wires and cause a second trigger which activates the solenoid and ultimately creates a never ending loop. just a question but has anyone tried rerouting some of their wires and make sure that the solenoid wires are away from every other wire and don't drag across the circuits. I deal with a lot of sensitive circuits that don't like noise and wire routing and circuit layout are both big contributors. If someone at AGD has an oscilliscope and can put a gun into an FA condition they should be able to watch the HES signal and see if its sensing all these shots or if its a software issue.

[Miscue]

No, it's not the software... although it creates conditions that aggravate the hardware problems. It's definitely an EMI issue with the HES picking it up. The solenoid's field triggers the HES in place of the trigger magnet.

[SeeK]

Since everybody wants to know how a HES works this is this is the most graphic explaination I've been able to find:

http://www.micronas.com/products/overview/sensors/index.php#packages

This article mentions different types of Hall Effect Sensors but I don't have my X-Mag to read the label off of the HES to see what features it has but maybe some of these Offset compensation principals can be written into the code.

http://www.micronas.com/products/overview/sensors/index.php#offset

The other alternatives would be to replace the HES block with a shielding material (ie. metalic coated plastic?), shielded HES cable, or a toroid core or ferrite beads.

http://www.antennex.com/shack/Dec99/beads.htm

[Army]

If it helps any, neither Q1.1, nor 4.0, has given me any trouble at all. I am more than pleased with the program as it is.

[SkyBoySurfer]

I loved Q 1.1 even with the bug in it...4.00 is defetly awsome for turnes....I think Q1.1 is a hell of a lot better than 3.2...I hate 3.2 for a passion...i want at least Q1.1 back

AGD needs to Ok Q1.1 at least for the codeing...I swear.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

but thats my opinion I could be wrong

[Rope a Dope]

So when is da new software gonna be out? 4.0, Q 1.1? I feel the need.. the need for SPEED!

[billmi]

Originally posted by jeffremiller
So could this be fixed by redesigning the little plastic HES enclosure with a similiar part, shielded on three sides?

If so, what makes a decent magnetic barrier? other than lead....

J_

Generally, magnetic shielding consists of setting up oppsing magnetic fields - which creates a problem when you are trying to allow a field to affect the sensor.

Lead won't sheild from magnetism.

[jeffremiller]

Interesting... I haven't had this problem. But then again, I wear an aluminum foil hat to keep the aliens and the government from reading my thoughts.

I knew that would come in handy one day.

J_

[billmi]

I hear you. Though I must point out, as clarified in a previous thread, folding paper or aluminum foil hats is just a hobby for me, not a job. :-)

-Bill

[RoadDawg]

Originally posted by jeffremiller
Interesting... I haven't had this problem. But then again, I wear an aluminum foil hat to keep the aliens and the government from reading my thoughts.



I do the samething. Only it's to keep Major League Baseball from knowing my hat size. ;)

[Swede X-mag]

Is AGD working on this issue With the HES/Solenoid?
Or Is It up to us on AO to solve this?

What i pesonaly want is an software that has the the features of the 3.2 but with an lock for the SHBF (debounce setting) So if the 3.2 software works. Couldent some one just add this lock eature and make a 3.3 software.
:D

[USAF-Flyboy with a Mag]

Originally posted by Swede X-mag
Is AGD working on this issue With the HES/Solenoid?
Or Is It up to us on AO to solve this?

What i pesonaly want is an software that has the the features of the 3.2 but with an lock for the SHBF (debounce setting) So if the 3.2 software works. Couldent some one just add this lock eature and make a 3.3 software.
:D

I can't speak for the 3.2, but the 4.0 does have a lock for the debounce.

[SeeK]

I figure it's time again to stimulate the AO neurons:

They produce magnetic shielding material and have a magnetic shielding calculator.
http://www.magnetic-shield.com/products/alloys.html

Of course I'm not sure we can rule out RF interference since an oscillating magnetic field could create an RF field in the wires or board traces.

http://www.astronomynotes.com/light/s2.htm

http://www.trifield.com/magnetic_fields.htm

In case you wondered how many gauss it takes to trigger a Hall Effect sensor:
http://www.du.edu/~etuttle/electron/elect19.htm

Any other thoughts?

[Da1spaz247]

well guys, I would absolutely love to help out here, but I have to admit, this is way above me! Here is my attempt at the problem.

To me, it almost seems like maybe 4.0 just has an error in the programming or something. Maybe a slight mistake when writing the software. Miscue said it is a much "cleaner" version of 3.2 or something, but maybe 3.2 was written complicatedly for a reason? (is complicatedly even a word?)

Is it not something that changing the software couldn't fix? After all, it has to be software related, otherwise no other software would work with the existing hardware.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

[pbzmag]

It's hardware. Some had no problems after the 3.2 upgrade and had no problems, some did. I had 2.4 and was able to produce the full-auto bug. It was slight but was there. Once I changed the solenoid leads, it went away. I had mines upgraded to 4.0 and had no problems.

[USAF-Flyboy with a Mag]

Originally posted by Da1spaz247
well guys, I would absolutely love to help out here, but I have to admit, this is way above me! Here is my attempt at the problem.

To me, it almost seems like maybe 4.0 just has an error in the programming or something. Maybe a slight mistake when writing the software. Miscue said it is a much "cleaner" version of 3.2 or something, but maybe 3.2 was written complicatedly for a reason? (is complicatedly even a word?)

Is it not something that changing the software couldn't fix? After all, it has to be software related, otherwise no other software would work with the existing hardware.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

It is a hardware problem...NOT A SOFTWARE PROBLEM

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Da1spaz247

To me, it almost seems like maybe 4.0 just has an error in the programming or something. Maybe a slight mistake when writing the software.

Nope, the software works as it should.

[Rope a Dope]

Originally posted by Miscue


Nope, the software works as it should.

So why can't I get it?!?! :(

[miked]

Hey miscue:

I was bored at work the other day and hooked my x-mag up to an oscilliscope. While watching the HES output I triggered it several times to see if I could detect any second induced pulse on the line which would then result in a second firing with the right software. I didn't see anything. I have 2.4 but that shouldn't matter if its a hardware thing. It could be that mine is a very nice gun as far as this condition and will never see the FA issue. Or it could be that I rushed the setup of the scope and wasn't sampling fast enough. if you want I can check other locations on the circuit for issues. can't promise I will have time soon but I can try.

oh and I was wondering if you thought about maybe doing something where you ignore anything from the HES in a small window after the true pulse. not sure how complicated that would be. I would imagine it would take a ton of processing logic to do. my thought here is that basically the hardware problem should occur a regular interval after the trigger. so simply ignore x nanoseconds after the trigger to x + some then resume normal monitoring. fine maybe you wouldn't catch every real trigger but you would get most so long as the window is small. probably just better to find the hardware issue, fix it and be done with it though.

[MantisMag]

if i'm not mistaken that would be debounce. ;)

[OfficerGoat]

Guess what ... I am 90% certian I have it worked out.. At least on my gun :) I need to get some more testing before I open my mouth and look too much like an asshat... but I think there really is light at the end of this tunnel. :)

BTW... I dont think its the HES taking the interfeirence.

[OfficerGoat]

BTW .. clean out your inbox!!!!

[gibby]

GO OG GO!!! :D

[Miscue]

Originally posted by OfficerGoat

BTW... I dont think its the HES taking the interfeirence.

??? I spent many hours verifying this, isolating just the HES and solenoid... and can duplicate perpetual firing... and have a video of it.

[xrancid_milkx]

Kind of off subject but..

What about the solenoid? I read in the other 4.0 thread that it can't hang after around 20 bps, will this be fixed? And if so how? Replacement, modification or what? Or has it been put on the back burner?

[pbzmag]

Well, I went to the field over the weekend and had no problems with FA. The only problem that I had was a broken ball in the hopper. Didn't know about it until after the game. Sat out a game or two to clean out the mess and I was good to go the rest of the day. Oh, and it was raining.

[MantisMag]

Originally posted by xrancid_milkx
Kind of off subject but..

What about the solenoid? I read in the other 4.0 thread that it can't hang after around 20 bps, will this be fixed? And if so how? Replacement, modification or what? Or has it been put on the back burner?

if i remember correctly the solenoid is too big. it doesn't reset fast enough. the fix is too turn up your input pressure so it gets kicked back harder.

[OfficerGoat]

With a little more testing it still rapid fires... just not as easaly as before. So getting closer. Whence I get my car all sorted out this will be the next project I toss a pile of time into. I think however that the final solution is going to involve a couple of phisical tweaks and some software mods to go with it. Just have to see.