To Tom Kaye..... unleash the HAMMER

[Ronin 23]

Would AGD support a TOTALLY MECHANICAL TOURNAMENT SERIES that would be televised to the entire paintball community.

Through PBX Event Production and in cooperation with PBX Battlezone and 68 Caliber Films, we can mount something that has never been done before. A GLOBALLY TELEVISED tournament series.

Hey everyone....CHIME IN WITH YOUR INPUT.

[wyn1370]

how are you gonna get global televising if they can only get major tourney ball on OLN?

[JuggaloDave]

sounds like it would be prity cool if it can be pulled off

[At_da_Fifty]

I would watch it, if I had any mech markers lying around I'd even play! Too bad I've outgrown mechs :p

[252]

w00t w00t.


Need I say more?

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by wyn1370
how are you gonna get global televising if they can only get major tourney ball on OLN?

HEHEHE. We have our means wyn-san........soon the whole world will know.......;)

[FreakBaller12]

i'm in, and my true mech mag is almsot complete too, and i still got my emag in mech mode.

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by Ronin 23
Would AGD support a TOTALLY MECHANICAL TOURNAMENT SERIES that would be televised to the entire paintball community.

You would never get enough interest. The general pb community believes electros are far superior, whether they are or not. AO members are the exception, as they believe that the mech mag is superior. To each thier own. I believe both have their pros and cons.
But even most cocker users want Eblade or Race frames. And most non AO people who buy a mag, want an electro mag.

[Tyger]

I finally found an analogy to paintball menality here.

Imagine auto racing. The object is to go fast around a track. So in order to go faster, the theory goes, you need to build a larger engine. Forget about technique in some cases, just bolt a larger engine in there and let it rip. Raw, unbridled horsepower means you go faster, right? Faster means you win, right? Forget the techniques of cornering, drafting, and all that, we just want a bigger engine.

The paintball events have been doing just this. Except, using the analogy, the engines got bigger and our tracks got SMALLER. So you have a few thousand horsepower on a go-cart oval. And since that's what's offered as competition, that's what people do. Has anyone offered a LARGE 5 man arena lately? No. So we take what's offered, and we play.

So the mentality is what you make of it. NASCAR drivers don't like restrictor plate raing and whine about it in the media, but they'll do it. If you ran an all mechanical tournament, people would still do it. It's a tournament, and there's someone who will do it for the competition.

Build it and they will come. Hell, Skyball ran a pump tournament with no real fanfare or even press coverage, and 15 teams showed up. So offer it, and people will do it.

-Tyger

[WARPED1]

Remember that there really isn't much markup on marker sales. Fields really only make money on paint sales, hence FGPO at most fields. So, organizers offer the small fields and want you to shoot fast and much more paint than you even need. I mean why do you need 18 BPS when it only takes 1 ball to eliminate someone?!

[AGDlover]

i donno bout that mags would own everyone. hehehehhehe

[theraidenproject]

Ramrod's in. Most of us shoot RTs anyway, and I've been looking for an excuse to get a new RT. I guess I could just take the battery of my Emag, though.
PS - When is the video from Saturday going to be up?

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by Sniper king
i donno bout that mags would own everyone. hehehehhehe See? It's unintelligent drivel like that, that would prevent something like this to happen. I hope you're kidding. No gun is better than the other:). It's all psychological!

[ogre55]

Originally posted by WARPED1
You would never get enough interest. The general pb community believes electros are far superior, whether they are or not. AO members are the exception, as they believe that the mech mag is superior. To each thier own. I believe both have their pros and cons.
But even most cocker users want Eblade or Race frames. And most non AO people who buy a mag, want an electro mag.

While you are correct in that most people believe that electros are superior to mech guns, I think that a lot of big name talent would try their hands at a mech only tournament if it would gaurantee the kind of exposure proposed by Ronin 23.

Ogre

[logamus]

Originally posted by Ronin 23


HEHEHE. We have our means wyn-san........soon the whole world will know.......;)

all you need to do is get to the network uplink in the game quad.

[GT]

Originally posted by Tyger
I finally found an analogy to paintball menality here.

Imagine auto racing.

there is an old saying...If you cant drive a car well with 120hp how are you going to drive it with 500hp?

Thus why electos are very popular because there are tons of folks out there with little skill and more gun than they can handle...

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by gtrsi


there is an old saying...If you cant drive a car well with 120hp how are you going to drive it with 500hp?

Thus why electos are very popular because there are tons of folks out there with little skill and more gun than they can handle... Yes.

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by gtrsi


there is an old saying...If you cant drive a car well with 120hp how are you going to drive it with 500hp?

Thus why electos are very popular because there are tons of folks out there with little skill and more gun than they can handle...

A BIG AMEN TO THAT......

[deadeye9]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by gtrsi


there are tons of folks out there with little skill and more gun than they can handle...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I represent that statement. :mad:

[dansim]

Originally posted by WARPED1
See? It's unintelligent drivel like that, that would prevent something like this to happen. I hope you're kidding. No gun is better than the other:). It's all psychological!

so your telling me a mag isnt better than a talon?;)

[JEDI]

A wise man once said....

STAY ON TOPIC YOU RETARDS!!

I'd love to see a mechanical tourney series, and a televised one at that! My cocker is dying to stomp your weenie little mags into the ground... and if I cant use my cocker, I'll use my own weenie little mag to do the stomping. Good idea Mel.

:cool: Deadcell Baby!!

[magking1971]

Any chance of this in the Northwest?
If so count me in!!

[cphilip]

Dudes they race Lawnmowers for christ sakes! No argument that no one would do it cause it's slower is even valid at all. It's about "Classes" and everyone knows there is interest in ANY Class of anything. For various good reasons.

I am in. Count me in. Mech only tourneys is good... and lets make em rock! :D

I got a three man team here ready to go. All we need is a time and place. Lets see if we can get one down this way going too.

[SeeK]

At least we won't see any Smart Parts markers.

[NJPaint]

I'd play if I could use my e-mag w/o my battery pack :)

[Josh2Xtremes]

Anyone figure out where the money for this is going to come from? Tournaments cost money, and productions cost money, television costs money, the advertising to make it all happen costs money. Nobody has discussed yet where it's all going to come from; who's going to foot the bill?

I'm not trying to burst any bubbles or shoot anything down, but show me da money.
Josh

[cphilip]

I got one more suggestion I would love to see incorporated into this.... Limit Pods... (I know...makes a field owner shudder at the thought but) I mean reasonable limitation. Like a hopper and three or a Hopper and four. Lets put the skill and fun back into it and lets make it affordable for every kids to play a tournament. Make up for it in some other way. There are many other ways. But more total entries means more money coming in and more kids can enter. I think its time we get back to the fun way of playing paintball.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Josh2Xtremes
... but show me da money.
Josh

Mel just told ya. Ye of little faith. :p

[WenULiVeUdiE]

"If you book them they will come" Waynes World

I think many people would come. It wouldnt discourage first time tournie players at all and it would still allow you to lay down the paint. But I doubt it would even be aired in Canada, but we can only hope. I thnk thats a greta idea, mech. tournies only.

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by Josh2Xtremes
Anyone figure out where the money for this is going to come from? Tournaments cost money, and productions cost money, television costs money, the advertising to make it all happen costs money. Nobody has discussed yet where it's all going to come from; who's going to foot the bill?

I'm not trying to burst any bubbles or shoot anything down, but show me da money.
Josh

Josh...think out of the box, my brother....think out of the box.

[Creative Mayhem]

I'm in... depending on when I can kill the boss and get the time off that is neccessary to drag my canadian behind down there :):D

[Crimson_Turkey]

I would kill to show off my new high end mech gun at this place. .5mm trigger length and 2.5oz weight. Perfect oppertunity to get people to drool again.

[Mr. T!]

too bad mech only tourney would isolate about 95% of the paintball tournament scene. not very smart

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by Mr. T!
too bad mech only tourney would isolate about 95% of the paintball tournament scene. not very smart

not in the mag community... Every mag ever made can shoot in mech mode :D

[yeahthatsme]

i think big teams would actually be interested in playing, becuase of the tv coverage and whatnot, it think that if this was promoted right it could be HUGE and be great for the sport and for AGD.

[Ronin 23]

One of the reasons that I would love to see this is because I'm so sick and tired of the hypocrisy within the industry. In everyone's Rule Book, competition markers are suppose to shoot ONLY IN SEMI AUTOMATIC MODE. ONE PULL OF THE TRIGGER SHOULD RESULT ONE BALL COMING OUT OF THE BARREL.

But with the advent of the 'Electronic Era' and the evolution the high-end tournament markers, certain "cheater" boards have been produced and distributed for the sole purpose of achieving the physically unachievable.

Enough is enough. Let skill and talent be the determining factor on the field.

Let the young player KNOW THE TRUTH....IT'S NOT THE BPS THAT COUNTS, IT'S GETTING INTO POSITION TO HIT WHAT YOU AIM AT THAT'S MORE IMPORTANT.

[Chojin Man]

Um ya so who is going to host this event(foot the bill), and where is it going to be? No one has yet answered this.

Sounds like a good idea to me. I would support a limited paint tourney as cphil suggested. Could you have both limited paint and unlimited in the same tourney but under different "classes"?

[Tyger]

Originally posted by Mr. T!
too bad mech only tourney would isolate about 95% of the paintball tournament scene. not very smart

That's ok.

the tournament style of play isolates out 95% of the rec-ball scene. So we're all even.

Besides. Two words. "Spyder Cup". Were they hurtin' for players? No. You make something happen, and you let people know it's going to happen with enough forward notice, then people will come and play it.

-Tyger

[Tyger]

Originally posted by Josh2Xtremes
I'm not trying to burst any bubbles or shoot anything down, but show me da money.
Josh

Let's get the concepts down first, so we have a base. Then, once we can all agree on what we want, we can do it.

It's like ordering a pizza before you've talked to everyone in the room? "Ok, I got the pizza guy on the phone. What do we want?"

"PEPPERONI!"
"Canadian bacon and pineapple!" "ME TOO EH!"
"VEGGIES!!! I can't eat meat!"
"MEAT!!! I don't like veggies!"
"Get a TACO pizza!"
"Plain cheese!!!"

"Umm, dude? Can I call you back?"

Let's not put the cart before the horse, let's get a 'plan', then make it happen. Things work better if you do things that way.

-Tyger

[kenndogg]

personally I think the key here is prizes. Make the prizes worthwhile and use it as a marketing point. It has to be something that makes people go whoa and not care what type of guns they're using. Take a look at the spyder cup, you had to use spyders but no one cared b/c they have a chance to win vehicles.

[cphilip]

Well again. And I am going to be very adamant on this point. If you want to put the skil back into the game you gotta do limited paint. Seriously. You can throw out enough paint with todays Mechanicals to still kill the whole movement of the game. Lucky balls in the air with no reprecusion to the limit is the death of this game. If we limit it to reasonable thought levels like four or five pods we are not doing anything BUT increase the skill of the game to where it needs to be. In my opinion unlimited paint on the field is the death knell of the sport. What army gets in a battle that has unlimited ammo? What does unlimited indescriminant balls in the air do to movement and all? It kills it! It is the devil of the whole thing. If you limit to four or five pods then people have to think! But yet they still have enough paint to lane shoot when the team is moving. Anyone with a half a lick of skill can play back with five pods. Anyone! If you gotta have more then your just a hacker. A paint thrower. A no skilz paint sloppper. Anyone can do that crap.

Go mechanical but LIMIT PAINT AND RETURN THE SKILL!!!!

I am serious on this Mel. I will be the area guy for you if you want me to be but I gotta have this one thing to get behind it all 100%. It's the key to getting kids and even the old guys back into the tournanment scene and getting skill back into the game along with Mechanical Markers. The two go hand in hand. I am certain of that.

[cphilip]

Example: we practice our teams with one pod and a hopper. So they HAVE to learn to snap shoot and have to learn to communicate their moving. So the back guy KNOWS when to waste his limited paint. This works very well. No kid ends up using more than three pods in a game when they do this. They learn this and they do VERY well after they do. They learn to snap shoot and they learn to communicate. They still flood lanes but they do it on command and when they need too.


You got teams out there now that do not. They just shoot indescriminantly and brag about HOW MANY POD they use! No real purpose to MOST of that paint! No skill. Just throw it. No purpose just flood the entire area for the whole game HOPEING one will hit someone. I find that repuslive. And I find it the primary reason people want these markers the Q shots and spray fast. They got no skill in the cranium! They gotta overcome that with just shear volume. I think its time the smart player be rewarded and given a chance to show what the brain can do with enough paint. This forces those sprayers to think. And learn.

[Toxic Dave]

Some thoughts;

Tyger, Your racing analogy is close, but not accurate. NASCAR(nextel cup more accurately) is the equivelant to the mechanical-only event you guys want to do. The F-1/ IRL guys are running technology in their cars that the hicks in Nascar would kill for. Heck the Supercharger in my Mini is illegal in Nascar. But the 600+ hp that is produced by their normally aspirated cars is still pretty insane.

CPhilip;
It's unusual for Xball players to reload in a game, with the bounciest triggers in all the land, so it wouldn't be really much of a challenge for alot of players to be limited on paint.

The whole concept is cool, I'd be more interested in seeing a IROC type of thing done, where only X type of marker is used, and the player gets to do very little or no work on it before the match.

Seek;
2 Words-Evolution Autococker SP distribution, and one of the finest markers made.

I'm skeptical as to the television coverage, etc. but I think it's a concept worth looking into.

dave

[wyn1370]

I still think this is a pipe dream. Sure it may be a great idea, but it would take a hell of a lot more support than is ever going to come from this board. Yeah sure you say have faith, but if major industry sponsored tourneys can't get majorly televised how is a small time field and store owner going to pull it off?

[Patron God of Pirates]

Well, my RTP is sick of playing second banana to my E-Mag, so I'm down for it. I like cphilips idea of limited paint.

Anyone in the Ocean County area feel like putting a mech team together?

[Ronin 23]

In reality and in practice, the amount of paint thrown is dependent on many factors. Field size, playing styles, and game situation being some of these factors.

But if we're trying to garner industry support, it would be easier and far more appealing for the industry to get behind an 'unlimited paint' event.

[Patron God of Pirates]

Originally posted by Ronin 23
But if we're trying to garner industry support, it would be easier and far more appealing for the industry to get behind an 'unlimited paint' event.

You could limit the paint per game and use a tourny format where you play way more games.

Or you could get more points for shooting less paint. i.e. You're penalized 5 pts. for every empty pod after the game.

Just brain storming.

[hitech]

Originally posted by cphilip
Go mechanical but LIMIT PAINT AND RETURN THE SKILL!!!!...It's the key to getting...the old guys back into the tournament scene and getting skill back into the game along with Mechanical Markers.

I have to admit, limited paint, on the order of 4 pods (140 rounders) plus hopper would make it more appealing to me. :D

[hardr0ck68]

how about bonus points for being under on paint usage? You can bring as much paint on to the feild as you like, but the refs count and collect used pods (stiff penalties of course for tryin to hide used pods). for example limit of 3 pods per player to make the bonus. If a 3 man team uses a total of 9 pods then they get a +5 point bonus, for every pod under they get another 2 or 3 points, so if they max with 10 pods they get 100, if they max with 0 pods they get 120 or something like that. It would add another important skill to the game. But only the winning team is able to get the bonus, if you use and the team only used one pod then they get no cookie!! LOSERS GET NO COOKIE!! and next, Mech only would count out perhaps 30% of the lower to mid tourny players. I do not know of a serious tourny player who doesnt own either an active or "retired" mech gun. The old war horse who was put out to pasture because 12 year-olds with a cheater gun can out shoot the veteran with his old girl....and i know that anyone with a old warhorse like that would LOVE to bring her back into the game!! and so, in a much needed conclusion count me in Mel, and im SURE Violator will all be killin thugs there!

[TNS2k2]

Originally posted by Crimson_Turkey
I would kill to show off my new high end mech gun at this place. .5mm trigger length and 2.5oz weight. Perfect oppertunity to get people to drool again.

And i would love to pick up the "TNS Phoenix" while i am down there...... muahahaha

[Cryer]

Well, dammit... Just bought an emag...


but, uh...Yeah, sounds fun. I can just take the battery out, right?;)

[breg]

Hmmmm... This bear some further thought.
This would be interesting. I would totally be down for this, execpt for one thing: I'm soon to be in another country for at least 15 months.
But, I have a few questions:

1. Define what electronics, if any could be allowed on the field. (i.e. Hoppers, Timers, Radios, Warps, etc.)

2. A definiton of what markers would be permissable (address the whole trigger bounce before it becomes an issue... again)

This would be really interesting because, now you don't need a million dollar marker to compete. And I like the whole idea of a limit on paint. That could put some thought back into the whole thing...

[cphilip]

Mel, I do not think the industry is going to balk at limited paint under the circumstances and purposes I am proposing. I think they need to be educated as to why we would think its nessicary. But I suspect most of them will see it immediately. I mean its worth a trial ballon at least. And the kind of generous limit I propose is not going to scare anyone off. In fact I predict it will get wide support. I think four or five pods is generous. And its almost unlimited really. but its a key element. I forsee quicker games. And I forsee larger entry numbers. There will be almost as much paint used in these tournaments.

X Ball? well....Yes...but I was not certain we were always talking X Ball here. I forsaw Three, Five and 7 man speed ball events too.

[Barfly]

well electric hoppers are a must in my opinion, because you are going to chop like mad without LX and some guns don't have anti-chopping capabilities

[RayU]

Originally posted by cphilip
I think four or five pods is generous. And its almost unlimited really. but its a key element. I forsee quicker games.

Heh. Those of us who play pump games would even laugh at 4 or 5 pods! In PumpLeague (3-man tourney in TX) many of us don't even carry pods, just what's in our hopper! The games are 5 minutes, center flag. Still fast action games, and most of the time I've still got lots of paint left in my hopper. No, it's not from being shot out early. :D

When we play rec all-pump games, sometimes semi-auto people ask if they can join us. We say, "Sure! But we play hopper-ball. Wanna still play?" Sometimes they hesitate. We respect those who admit that they may be depending on firepower more than skill. At least they're honest.

Limited paint play encourages skill and movement than depending only on shear firepower. If everyone is limited to the same amount of paint, skill becomes more important than equipment.

Just think - if everyone was limited to only 20 balls each - the super accurate snap shooter and the ballsy moves players would dominate, not the twitchy finger.

[Toxic Dave]

Limited paint really isn't a big thing unless you are playing ten-man or maybe seven. The majority of X-ball/ 5-man players don't carry more than 2 tubes these days, and that's with them using any gun they want.

It's an interesting concept, I don't know if it'll take over the world, but anything with a weird twist is fun.

dave

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by Patron God of Pirates
Well, my RTP is sick of playing second banana to my E-Mag, so I'm down for it. I like cphilips idea of limited paint.

Anyone in the Ocean County area feel like putting a mech team together?

Hang-out at PBX Battlezone and I'm sure you can hook up with some like-minded players.

[Tyger]

Random thought.

Could it be that the ROF war is based on not wanting to be "dropped" out of the game?

Hang on, let me say this. If the players who have based thier game / style on high ROF suddenly have to re-learn the game to snapshooting and movement (limited paint), they're basically dropped from the face of the game.

So to stay "in" the game, they have to get higher ROF guns, higher ROF play, and they can then exclude all the players who can't keep up on the trigger, but may excell / exceed thier skills elsewhere?

Does that make sense?

-Tyger

[JEDI]

Ahhhhhh!!!... Limited paint...NOT TOPIC OF DISCUSSION ...head going to explode!!! Spock...what... the hell...is going on here?

Drop the limited paint idea. If unlimited paint is not your bag, then respectfully bow out of this one. No one shows up to your goofy rec ball games and says "Limited camo, too much camo takes away from the skill." "I mean, being hidden is sooo overrated"

STEPS TO IMMEDIATELY KILL ANY GOOD IDEA:
STEP ONE: come up with good idea.
STEP TWO: Post good idea on AO

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by hardr0ck68

how about bonus points for being under on paint usage? You can bring as much paint on to the feild as you like, but the refs count and collect used pods (stiff penalties of course for tryin to hide used pods)............ It would add another important skill to the game. But only the winning team is able to get the bonus, if you use and the team only used one pod then they get no cookie!!.... I do not know of a serious tourny player who doesnt own either an active or "retired" mech gun. The old war horse who was put out to pasture because 12 year-olds with a cheater gun can out shoot the veteran with his old girl....and i know that anyone with a old warhorse like that would LOVE to bring her back into the game!!




Originally posted by cphilip
Mel, I do not think the industry is going to balk at limited paint under the circumstances and purposes I am proposing. I think they need to be educated as to why we would think its nessicary. But I suspect most of them will see it immediately. I mean its worth a trial ballon at least. And the kind of generous limit I propose is not going to scare anyone off. In fact I predict it will get wide support. I think four or five pods is generous. And its almost unlimited really. but its a key element. I forsee quicker games. And I forsee larger entry numbers. There will be almost as much paint used in these tournaments.

Point well taken! You both have an extremely valid point and make a very compelling case for them.

I'm just kinda stuck on being against the Pan-Am Limited Paint thing.

But 3-5 pods PLUS your hopper....well that's what I usually hit the field with anyway.

[JEDI]

Originally posted by Tyger
Random thought.

Could it be that the ROF war is based on not wanting to be "dropped" out of the game?

Hang on, let me say this. If the players who have based thier game / style on high ROF suddenly have to re-learn the game to snapshooting and movement (limited paint), they're basically dropped from the face of the game.

So to stay "in" the game, they have to get higher ROF guns, higher ROF play, and they can then exclude all the players who can't keep up on the trigger, but may excell / exceed thier skills elsewhere?

Does that make sense?

-Tyger
No, that does not really make sense. Snap shooting, and good movement are the skills earned by a good player. Relying on mass amounts of paint, is a cructh to a not-so-good player. Unlimited use of paint is an aspect of the game. Whether or not you choose to rely on it %100 is the difference between a good baller, and a newb with a marker.
Mech guns only, is not changing anything about tourney ball. Limited paint is. The author of this thread, as far as I know, is not attempting to derive some new style of play.

[dinger]

Originally posted by cphilip
They just shoot indescriminantly and brag about HOW MANY POD they use!

i remember seeing an ad for the egg about this guy saying "i shoot 2700 balls a game.. and the Evolution II is the only one that keeps up!"

he thinks hes bragging about his hopper... when really he sucks weiner because thats 2699 that was wasted! TALK ABOU NO SKILL

and for those of you with emags... you dont need to take out the battery... just find a way not to remove the key, or take off the switch from mech/electro.


moo

[hardr0ck68]

Err, even without a paint limmit it would still be the best ting out there in my oppionion

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by JEDI
Ahhhhhh!!!... Limited paint...NOT TOPIC OF DISCUSSION ...head going to explode!!! Spock...what... the hell...is going on here?

Drop the limited paint idea. If unlimited paint is not your bag, then respectfully bow out of this one. No one shows up to your goofy rec ball games and says "Limited camo, too much camo takes away from the skill." "I mean, being hidden is sooo overrated"

STEPS TO IMMEDIATELY KILL ANY GOOD IDEA:
STEP ONE: come up with good idea.
STEP TWO: Post good idea on AO


Why are you so negative man? No one has killed anyones idea. The title of this thread is not "Mechanical marker tournament, we don't want your suggestions". I think it's a valid suggestion. If the organizer/promoter does not like the idea, then don't use it, but if people do not suggest ideas or comments, then what is the point of even starting this thread?

I think Wyn and Josh ask valid points... How is this going to happen. People are going to come in here and say it's a great idea, and it is, but you do have to be a realist some times.

As a suggestion, why not have a pump only division:)

EDIT:
I think Rocco's suggestion about some points awarded based on the amount you use is an interesting and different idea.

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by JEDI

The author of this thread, as far as I know, is not attempting to derive some new style of play.

What I'm driving at is this....

1. Have games predicated on movements and angles. Something that more talented players wouldn't balk at to begin with.

2. Have the succeeding generation of younger players truly understand the game and not to buy into the hype.

3. It's a SHOOTING SKILL game. I would rather have one old fart who can snap shoot an advancing player at the fifty than a young guy who needs to put out a rope to achieve the same thing.

4. Although the 'limited paint' issue is intriguing, I would want this whole concept of MECHS ONLY to be the main thrust of this thread.

If these things are the "points of the game" that are highlighted instead of the BLING-BLING 30 BPS MARKER, then we would truly be a sport driven by talent and skill instead of state-of-the-art products.

As in any sport....the beauty is in the motion, explosiveness and intrinsic skill required from the best players that Joe Regular Player doesn't possess.

[Tyger]

Originally posted by JEDI

Unlimited use of paint is an aspect of the game. Whether or not you choose to rely on it %100 is the difference between a good baller, and a newb with a marker.
Mech guns only, is not changing anything about tourney ball. Limited paint is.

But that's what I mean. If you remove that "Aspect" of the game, you pretty much crumble a lot of these player's gameplans. It's a mechanical way to limit paint consumption, yes.

I look at it this way. When the Pam Am ran limited paint, some teams were accused of "hiding" pods on the field of play to get more an advantage. This tells me that they will go to extremes to shoot more paint. Thus my original idea. They feel 'threatened' by limiting thier paint consumption.

And as such will do all they can to discredit the concept of limited paint for fear they will not be able to play competitively if that's the accepted style of play. It's becoming elite by excluding the rest, if you get my drift.

If not, I'll go back to my pizza....

-Tyger

[JEDI]

Originally posted by Muzikman



Why are you so negative man? No one has killed anyones idea. The title of this thread is not "Mechanical marker tournament, we don't want your suggestions". I think it's a valid suggestion. If the organizer/promoter does not like the idea, then don't use it, but if people do not suggest ideas or comments, then what is the point of even starting this thread?


I'm sorry if I come across as negative. Thats not my intention. I just, in some way take offense to people always pushing the limited paint idea as soon as a tournament comes up. In my opinion, speedball thrives on the million miles an hour style of play. It needs the ropes of paint flying through the air. You say mass amounts of paint limits skill. I say 32bps coming my way hones MY skill right to the finest edge.
Tourney ball, "speedball" is fast. A guy can move on you, and be in and out of your site in half a second. You're not going to get some guy doing the superman into the snake with "plink - plink - plink". You're gonna scream your head off, and send gellatinous fury his way, making him wish he was lower than the carpet he's lying on.

If thats not your game, then you are not interested in Tournament style ball. You're looking for something else... which is ok too.

[Smoke]

I must say, a limited paint mech only tourney would be AWESOME! At Blackrain Paintball I'd usually go through a hopper in 6 games, and I'd average at least 2 kills a game. This was all done with my RTP, and I'd love to do it in a tourney because I already have limited paint experience.

Also, anybody who says that mechs can't throw enough paint.....obviously hasn't seen me shoot. ;)

[JEDI]

Originally posted by Tyger

I look at it this way. When the Pam Am ran limited paint, some teams were accused of "hiding" pods on the field of play to get more an advantage. This tells me that they will go to extremes to shoot more paint. Thus my original idea. They feel 'threatened' by limiting thier paint consumption.

And as such will do all they can to discredit the concept of limited paint for fear they will not be able to play competitively if that's the accepted style of play. It's becoming elite by excluding the rest, if you get my drift.

If not, I'll go back to my pizza....

-Tyger
Sure, to that extent I agree with you. That team is doing an injustice to the teams that feel they can still compete with the limited paint in place. They should not sign up. But to say its a crutch (not you) or a lack of skill is incorrect. Its a valid aspect of a game wich people have come to love. Its part of their arsenal. If they feel the need to dump a little more paint in a given scenario, and it gets the job done, its just as respectable as any other method.
I'd love to see a football team win by touch downs alone, but squeeking a win by with a feild goal is still a win.

[cphilip]

I brought up Limiting paint right here because it was the Authors stated goal and wish to put the skill back into the game.

And I felt the two things going hand in hand had a better chance to do that. I believe they go together towords that goal so well that I made an issue out of it. I see many people also believe its a key element. I believe todays Mechanical have an ability to still put out enough paint that they alone will not do it. They will need the assistance of limiting paint to achieve an effective measurable result the Author wants. And many people want. That was my point. And there is no better time to interject that than when formulating the entire concept.

[Wc Keep]

i think that a mech only tourney would be awesome. but i have to agree with jedi here. limiting the amount of paint a player gets to use is not cool. i feel its more exciting to see the ropes of paint instead of the snap shots when players are going to make a move. knowing when to move with a rope of paint coming your way takes a lot of skill.

and jedi is right no one is going to superman into the snake with plink plink plink coming at them.

[cphilip]

I think this was about change. And your not proposing to change anything at all if your not open to the idea of limiting to a reasonable amount of paint. Pleanty of play can occur and ropes of paint with the amounts proposed. Its about changing the play of the game. Its not about keeping it the same at all. Thats not the concept. Many games now a days get you off the field with less than five pod and a hopper. And there are plenty of ropes of paint in those games. Better timed and placed ones. If you want to play unlimited ropes of paint you already got that. What change is that? Fact is you don't need them. You waste more than 99% of that. What team wants to move with three guys shooing indesciminantly with "Wish and prayer" balls filling the air. Shooing a lane consistently and with purpose can be done with three or four pods for the length of a game. We do it all the time. Your exagerating the need for paint. Those moves to the snake would still be challenged with plenty of fire. And those moves by your team with plenty of fire. But coordinated communicated suppressive. Not constant suppressive in case they move. Thats the point it got past with unlimited paint. And its often overused and requires little skill to do it.

If I had my way and could dictate it would be three pods! But I didn't feel there would be enough support for that. And so I proposed a compromise number I felt most players could live with and industry could support.

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by Wc Keep
i feel its more exciting to see the ropes of paint instead of the snap shots when players are going to make a move. knowing when to move with a rope of paint coming your way takes a lot of skill.

and jedi is right no one is going to superman into the snake with plink plink plink coming at them.

I beg to differ. Examine the proposition that if you're dumping paint at a voluminous level to achieve something that is attainable through fewer and better-placed shots, then A MORE SKILLED SHOOTER IS ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH THE SAME GOAL WITH LESS PAINT, RIGHT?

Second, IT TAKES INFINITELY MORE SKILL TO SNAP SHOOT THAN SENDING A ROPE OUT. Just try posting on a target 30 feet away, send a rope and hit it....then try coming out quickly in a snap shot and hit the same target....when you've completed both, let me know then which one is more difficult.

But if you can combine an easily attainable task (dumping paint) with a more difficult one (snap shooting), wouldn't that define you as a better player?

I do accept Jedi's position that it is indeed more difficult to come out when there's a tight string of paint coming your way. But by the same token, if he's dumping paint, he'll have to reload sooner and thus run out of paint earlier. AND THAT TOO IS A WEAKNESS THAT CAN BE EXPLOITED. I hate to go 'eastern' on you but for every YIN, there's a YANG.

[ScatterPlot]

I'd love a tourney like this, I just hope I can make it.
[hopes for a northern southeast location]

[Wc Keep]

i know it takes more skill to snap shoot someone out than it does rope someone down. but if you are trying to organize a tournament and advertise it to the masses, ie put it on television, than you need to have the most exciting things going on. people are going to wanna see more of the good bunker moves and great movement on the field while narrowly avoiding being shot than someone just walk off the field because they were just snapped out.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by bertmcmahan
I'd love a tourney like this, I just hope I can make it.
[hopes for a northern southeast location]

I think by Global we are talking regional and so yea. There would be a push to start up in all regions. Several of them in each region. I not certain what Mel proposes but I assume he is thinking that way. And if so then we have the local field owners associations that I am certain would love to do this. These things are BYOP anyway. So they could care less!

With all the talk of Limiting rates of fire and limiting the ability for the marker to Q shots and spit out more paint... you are already doing exactly where I was heading with the limited paint. YOU ARE LIMITING PAINT! Thats what your doing! And you know that people are going to get around that in one way or another even with Mechanicals. So what I proposed pretty much keeps the playing field level even if you figure a way around the limitations of the marker and all that. The Roller trigger is an example of that. I betcha you will see them agian in this Mechanical marker scene. No need to. But then again if they want to do it... with limited paint....so be it! They got no more than you do! See the point?

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Wc Keep
i know it takes more skill to snap shoot someone out than it does rope someone down. but if you are trying to organize a tournament and advertise it to the masses, ie put it on television, than you need to have the most exciting things going on. people are going to wanna see more of the good bunker moves and great movement on the field while narrowly avoiding being shot than someone just walk off the field because they were just snapped out.

And I say they will. I say all the things now occuring will still happen.

Do me this favor.... Next time you guys practice. Carry only three pods. I mean each game. All day. At the end of the day tell me you have not had to think more and move more to win. Practice that way all day. The first game you will not like it. You will be tempted to say screw this. But I betcha if you give it a chance at the end of the day you will be a better player. Just give it a chance. Its a very tried and true practice method and it works.

We practice our kids with ONE pod and a hopper some days. All day long. Then when they get in a game they do exceptionaly well. They got unlimited paint then and rarely shoot three pods or four. And they will tell you it makes them better players. Try it.

[Wc Keep]

Originally posted by cphilip


And I say they will. I say all the things now occuring will still happen.

Do me this favor.... Next time you guys practice. Carry only three pods. I mean each game. All day. At the end of the day tell me you have not had to think more and move more to win. Practice that way all day. The first game you will not like it. You will be tempted to say screw this. But I betcha if you give it a chance at the end of the day you will be a better player. Just give it a chance. Its a very tried and true practice method and it works.

We practice our kids with ONE pod and a hopper some days. All day long. Then when they get in a game they do exceptionaly well. They got unlimited paint then and rarely shoot three pods or four. And they will tell you it makes them better players. Try it.

its been a while since youve seen me play phil and ive changed my playin style a lot in recent times. ive gone to only carrying 2-3 pods and am shooting only about a hopper a game (and getting 1 or 2 elimins).

[cledford]

I like the idea of counting paint AFTER the game. Count the pods that go out (must be standard size) Count the pods that come back in full, assign points for the better kill ratio.

-Calvin

[cphilip]

Thats certainly a concept that can be worked with. All Ideas are good Ideas here. That might be a little more work for the refs an scorer. If you check and make sure they just got say five pods on you do not care what they carry off. But I see the point of rewarding kill ratio. Could be very interesting. But like you said you MUST count them on and off. Because some player some day is gonna burry a empty pod or toss it over the fence or something.


Another thing here is that if you use the rules as NPPL has them and modify them there was nothing against "leaving" paint. If you got your front guy carrying five to then he can drop a few on the break behind the stand up and go on with three.... and so you can still distribute paint if you will. That even adds another strategy to the game that is often not used anymore. Brings that back.

[InexactMelissa]

It sounds like there are a lot of good ideas out there that all emphasize quality instead of quantity. I particularly like the idea of awarding extra points for the number of full pods that come off the field.

So a possible scenario would be to have each team start the tourney with X amount of paint - then they could take their leftover plus an allowance for X amount more into the next round of eliminations, etc. I could hear the commentary now..."Here's Team Z coming off the field now, and that's 12 pods of *Acme* Brand Paintballs they will be taking with them into the next round."

You could get really complicated with something like that and do it on a point system, ie 10 credits for each full pod off the field, -10 for each guy with a halo, +20 for a dude with a pump, -20 for each additional case of paint, etc. But that's a whole lotta rules, and I haven't even got XBall completely figured out yet :)

It could go on and on...but regardless of the rules, I'd be interested to watch a tournament that I could respect the players for their skills, hope to learn something from, and enjoy a good game.

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by InexactMelissa
It could go on and on...but regardless of the rules, I'd be interested to watch a tournament that I could respect the players for their skills, hope to learn something from, and enjoy a good game.

Amen....

[xrancid_milkx]

Originally posted by JEDI
...some guy doing the superman into the snake with "plink - plink - plink". You're gonna scream your head off, and send gellatinous fury his way, making him wish he was lower than the carpet he's lying on.

This mad me grin because it pretty much describes my style of play. And I enjoy that style of play very much :D


I would love the idea of a mech tourny, but I'm not hip on limited paint.

I used to play Stock Class, so limited paint isn't new to me, and its actually something I enjoy. Just not in a tournament.

[Toxic Dave]

The only thing I would see being different in the games would be that movement would be easier, being as the streams of paint would less dense(fewer balls in the air at at time, etc.) Most of the really good players would still be really good players in this format, heck most of these guys were using mech guns 3 years ago or so.

The ROF issue has nothing to do with people's game being dropped, etc. It comes down to this, getting an edge. If a team has markers that shoot significantly faster than another, it is very hard for the second team to control firing lanes, thus it is very hard to shoot, meaning it is very hard to shoot people out. The only time ROF provides an advantage is when rof capabilities are different, if it is the same, then your skills still need to be sharp to shoot people out. The top level players are still very good shots and move very well etc. they just need to use high end guns to compete with the other high end guns.

As for the Viewloader ad with Kevin "SK" Bredthauer(sp?) from Dynasty saying he shoots 2700 or whatever shots a game, and somebody claimed that he must be bad shot and not a good player....um he's a KEY player on Dynasty, and tends to pull out more games in an event than most of us will our lifetimes, they guy's an awesome player, just because he shoots alot doesn't mean anything, give that kid a pump gun and I'm sure he'll still school most teams.

dave

[Tyger]

Originally posted by JEDI

Tourney ball, "speedball" is fast. A guy can move on you, and be in and out of your site in half a second. You're not going to get some guy doing the superman into the snake with "plink - plink - plink". You're gonna scream your head off, and send gellatinous fury his way, making him wish he was lower than the carpet he's lying on.


You shoulda seen "Use your Illusion" pump tournament before Shatnerball 1 then. It was NOT a laid-back event. In all reality, I trashed a pair of pants playing in it (My old urban cammies). Why? I slid flat out on their gravel speedball court while dodging paint from 3 guys, who all saw me there. Was it intense? YES. Was it volume shooting? No, it was 3 guys doing it. And that was the factor in winning that particular game too.

Point is that I think that you can have an exciting game with lower tech, limited paint, and all that jazz. I mean, you shoulda seen Total Greif 1 and 2 play each other... they were out for BLOOD. No rollovers at all.

All high firepower, fun to play. All low firepower, fun to play. I think there's room to run divisions, like motocross (125, 250...) I still think the NPPL / SUper 7 should run a trial for a year, a pump division, a mechanical division, and an open division. And TRY it. They'd fill, without really making it too much a burden on themselves.

-Tyger

[1stdeadeye]

Sweet.

Looks like a lot of fun. Time to break out the old R/T Classic.

As for ropes of paint, Keep you need to shot my R/T I can lay some nice streams of paint with it!:D

[Creative Mayhem]

Originally posted by Tyger


You shoulda seen "Use your Illusion" pump tournament before Shatnerball 1 then. It was NOT a laid-back event. In all reality, I trashed a pair of pants playing in it (My old urban cammies). Why? I slid flat out on their gravel speedball court while dodging paint from 3 guys, who all saw me there. Was it intense? YES. Was it volume shooting? No, it was 3 guys doing it. And that was the factor in winning that particular game too.

Point is that I think that you can have an exciting game with lower tech, limited paint, and all that jazz. I mean, you shoulda seen Total Greif 1 and 2 play each other... they were out for BLOOD. No rollovers at all.

All high firepower, fun to play. All low firepower, fun to play. I think there's room to run divisions, like motocross (125, 250...) I still think the NPPL / SUper 7 should run a trial for a year, a pump division, a mechanical division, and an open division. And TRY it. They'd fill, without really making it too much a burden on themselves.

-Tyger

I couldnt agree more Tyger. I think there should be divisions, at least at a trial basis for the time being. I'm not sure how many player today really know what a pump is, but the mech division could very well take off. I for one, would jump at the opportunity to play in that division. Me and the PPE could do wonders ;)

When I was coming up and all there was were cockers and mags(and tippy's) there was a lot more movement and much more strategy involved, not just covering every nook and cranny of the field with cases of paint. Don't get me wrong, I too, like to shoot mass amounts of paint from time to time(hence the reason for the XMag)... but it is DEFINATELY not the end all be all of paintball. Simply put, there just has to be more to the game than just "spray and pray"

[ogre55]

Originally posted by hardr0ck68
how about bonus points for being under on paint usage? You can bring as much paint on to the feild as you like, but the refs count and collect used pods (stiff penalties of course for tryin to hide used pods). for example limit of 3 pods per player to make the bonus. If a 3 man team uses a total of 9 pods then they get a +5 point bonus, for every pod under they get another 2 or 3 points, so if they max with 10 pods they get 100, if they max with 0 pods they get 120 or something like that. It would add another important skill to the game. But only the winning team is able to get the bonus, if you use and the team only used one pod then they get no cookie!! LOSERS GET NO COOKIE!! and next, Mech only would count out perhaps 30% of the lower to mid tourny players. I do not know of a serious tourny player who doesnt own either an active or "retired" mech gun. The old war horse who was put out to pasture because 12 year-olds with a cheater gun can out shoot the veteran with his old girl....and i know that anyone with a old warhorse like that would LOVE to bring her back into the game!! and so, in a much needed conclusion count me in Mel, and im SURE Violator will all be killin thugs there!

The problem with this method is that it brings one more potential cheat into the game. Why bother. Either limit paint or don't, but keep the format as close to "normal tourny paintball" as possible so that there is no leaning curve for anyone entering and no additional headaches for the refs.

Ogre

[Athius]

Is this televised tournament get to be done please make it possible to be able to see it in ESPN or ESPN2!!!

[la690]

cutting away from the limited paint convo. for a second...
who is hosting this? (do they have the resources? are they in a position to gain industry support?)
how will it be advertised and
how will it be seen all over the globe?
it would be important to know this type of stuff before everbody starts making up rules. ronin, i would post this on PBN too.

[TheDoveDecends]

Originally posted by wyn1370
how are you gonna get global televising if they can only get major tourney ball on OLN?

im seeing flash backs of the move Anti Trusts here... a global communications take over? :P

[ShinyGuy]

I think the key thing in sustaining a new televised series is eliminating cheating. Most sports don't have the cheating problem we do. We need profesional refs that aren't otherwise involved with the players and much stiffer penalties. Hot guns can still be point penalties but anything intentional should be a disqualification. One guy gets caught wiping (or hiding pods in a limited paint format), his team doesn't recieve any points for the event. Repeated infractions disqualifies them for the season. To do anything less than complete disqualification is to condone cheating.