Mandatory Trigger Pull Weight - an Effective Means to Curb the ROF Problem?

[cledford]

There has been a lot of talk recently about limiting BPS, dealing with cheater boards and moving back from the 20+ BPS range that we've reached. A lot of the justification for the movement "backward" includes: safety concerns, the promotion of more dynamic movement (for better viewing), and to reduce the "digital divide" between those sponsored (with limitless paint and top end guns) and those paying their own way.

One of the most prevalent suggestions I've see so far is the re-banning of "force-feed" hoppers like the HALO and Warp. I think this is a bad idea - as force-feed serves useful purposes other than to feed a hunger "e-marker." Force feed insures that no matter what angle you come out, over, or around a bunker there will also be a positive feed - until the HALO came out there was always a question about this. Furthermore, systems like the warp change the nature of the game by moving the loader off the top of the gun - there is no denying that someone who plays against a warp for the first time remembers the experience! So, my point is that force-feed systems provide more than speed to markers. Don't forget the fact that should they be banned that essentially the entire market would be given (on a silver platter) back to Brass Eagle. To me it just seems silly to give up the enhanced reliability of the force-fed hopper to limit BPS which could be done through other means.

My idea is, why not establish a MANDATORY trigger pull weight? It can be done quite easily and checked rapidly. Manufacturers could still make BPS claims (like sport motorcycle companies tout 1/4 mile times and top end speed), the markers could still be electronic (face it - it is cool to tweak dwell electronically vs. disassembling the marker to change springs) (furthermore shot counters and such are neat also), yet the BPS would definitely go down. This doesn't address the bounce issue - but it sure would be easier to spot someone with an illegal gun.

For those who question the idea I get it from competitive shooting events - especially speed shooting. There is certainly an advantage to light trigger pulls in speed events that are won by milliseconds - but there is even more of a safety concern. To that end, at all well run matches, triggers are weighed with a VERY simple system. The penalty for the trigger breaking to lightly is simple and effective - the gun cannot be used. The process is VERY effective and works.

Since mechanical triggers usually have to travel further - there could even be 2 standards with a slightly higher weight for the shorter travel on the "e-trigger." This could effectively bring mechanicals back - there would then be valid reasons for going with one or the other - yet the field would in the end remain fairly level. I might choose a RT Pro due to the lighter weight and reliability (due to batteries or weather) and you might choose the E-gun due to no chance of short stroking. In the end everyone might have one of each :)

What do you guys think? It seems a lot more fair then banning more reliable loaders, and a lot easier then trying to determine BPS - trigger weighing is EXTREMELY low tech - therefore a LOT cheaper to reliably implement.

-Calvin

[fallout11]

I'd support that.
Good thoughts, Calvin.
I really liked the competitive shooting (IDPA) analogy. Right on the money there.

IDPA has a separate class for revolvers, too.
Much like the pump/stock class discussion.

[GT]

Originally posted by cledford

My idea is, why not establish a MANDATORY trigger pull weight?

There already is! It is listed in the ANSI standard. You would be suprised how heavy it is.

[Muzikman]

*clap* *clap* *clap*

Great idea...

[fallout11]

Originally posted by gtrsi


There already is! It is listed in the ANSI standard. You would be suprised how heavy it is.

That's because "hair triggers" are inherently dangerous, unreliable, and unpredictable.

Sport shooters, firearm experts, law enforcement personel, the military, and insurance companies agree.

[Gadget]

That's a very good idea.

It scares me that people actually brag about having triggers so light that they go off if you put the marker down on a table heavily.

[Steelrat]

Would a standard favor people with stronger fingers? Right now its easy to customize a trigger so it works well for you, would imposing a standard like that unfairly penalize some people?

Is any league going to go along with any of these BPS limiting suggestions, anyways? From what Ive seen, leagues are dependent on sponsors, and the sponsors are trying to sell fast guns and loads of paint. How can you convince them that it is in their best interest to slow down the guns and reduce paint consumption?

[fallout11]

The same way they convinced NASCAR sponsors that restrictor plates, regulated car weights, horsepower, engine size, fuel capacity, drag coefficients, and spoiler size and angles were a good idea.

Nascar rules were made without regard to sponsor's wishes.

In fact, sponsors do not make the rules in sports.
I do not see why they should even be given a moment's thought in paintball.

Paintball is the oddity.
This is also why paintball should have a 'regulating body' that is independent of the sponsors.
As it is in every other sport.

The interests of the sport as a whole do not necessarily coencide with those of its sponsors.

[thei3ug]

because unlike many other sports, the sponsors ARE the events in paintball. There's no real way to get around it.

[Z-man]

What about people like me with the Mech RT that can do 22bps? My RT is not modifited in any way but I can outshoot about anyone with this heavy trigger of mine ;).

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/mcalhaney/ZMANRTP/Mo%20Smaller%20FA.mov

[68magOwner]

ok, NASCAR is a huge corperation, i would like you to find examples of where those rules ar enforces at some local dirt track. if you people ar talking about enforcing these regulations for just pro leagues, then thats great. but there is NO WAY that it will be enforced at all fields, there is a place around here that has almost no safety regulations. even the shop owners/ref's have CRAZY trigger bounce. and you are not forced to chrono untill someone screams that your shooting hot (although i dont know if there are any people who dont chrono) but if a rule such as this were instated it would NEVER be inforced there, and im shure there are other fields like it. also, rules like this would make bandit balling more and more popular. therefore giving paintball a worse and worse image. I think all this bps talk is reducilous, ive been overshot bu a kid wiht a tippy(no e trigger) then ive ever been overshot by any of the kids with e-markers. also, i have never seen any serious injury come from overshooting. i dont see why its such a big "safety issue". i dont think that bouncy triggers are a great thing or anything, but i do feel that if a person can shoot fast un-aided then they should be able too. alot of people here seem to be in the mindset that this will encourage players to use mech markers, well woo hoo, i bet it will encourage just as many players to quit the sport. things like this serve no logical purpose, if people are that concerned with ROF, then find better ways to control bounce, and sweetspotting
BTW- if we get something like this instated, i guarentee that the next battle will be aginst sweet spotting triggers. face it, people like to shoot fast, they will find a way too

[hitech]

I like the idea. Especially since it was the first idea I had when this discussion all started. ;) I didn't know about the trigger pull weight requirements in any of the competitive shooting events. It makes sense though. Although I like the idea, I though there already was a rule that prevented these "hair triggers" that apparently isn't being enforced. It states that the marker cannot be made to fire my means other that pulling the trigger. That if my applying an external force such as bumping the marker it fires it is not allowed. I don't remember the exact wording (come on, someone can find it for me), but it was something along those lines. That would exclude the "hair triggers". However, I still like your idea. It is MUCH easier and consistent to test for. Maybe it would actually be enforced! ;)

[fallout11]

Originally posted by thei3ug
because unlike many other sports, the sponsors ARE the events in paintball. There's no real way to get around it.

Hmmm....I think we may have hit on the basic flaw behind the whole problem.

Imagine if I sponsored an event, and said "Welcome, now here are my rules to my event...."
How well whould that be received.

Sponsors are driving the boat, and that's good for them, business-wise.
But what are they doing FOR the sport in return?

Does paintball have such a low attraction for John Q. Public that the only way to get an event running is by letting "sponsors" run the show?
Paintball events are a "charity" of sorts, put on by manufacturers?
Paintball has no attraction of its own, it has to be "promoted" and "sponsored" by them?

Hmmmmm......

Bread and circuses for all.

[Steelrat]

In NASCAR, the sponsors don't generally build the cars, or make the gasoline and oil. Paintball sponsors not only have money tied up directly in the equipment and paintballs being sold and utilized at the tournament, they depend on teams promoting their equipment. In fact, generating marketing opportunities seems to be the primary reason that there are even tournaments at all.

Also, in paintball, there is much more focus on the equipment. If you level the playing field, how is that going to benefit the sponsors? Sponsors in NASCAR have no inherent interest in the equiment being used, and instead focus on the driver. The sponsors in paintball are all equipment manufacturers.

[fallout11]

Okay, I'll bring it down a notch.

IHRA, or hot rodding. Small time, much smaller than NASCAR.

Sponsors ARE equipment manufacturers, as in paintball, and sponsor the events.

Yet they have MASSIVE rules, class restrictions, etc.
IHRA has an independent rules making body.

Paintball would do well to look closely.

[68magOwner]

exactly, they have massive rules, wich is probably why street racing is more popular. The same thing will become of paintball, more bandit balling, means a worse public image for the sport, means fewer players

[fallout11]

Street racing didn't exist 4 years ago, except in Japan.
It's a fad here, like it was there (already fading in Japan).

But even "unrestricted" street racing has restrictions and classes, even if they are an informal handicap system.


Nitrox cars don't race non-nitrox. No point.
Slicks versus street tires.
Supercharged or not.
Evolutions don't race CRX's.
And so on.

IHRA, on the other hand, has been around for decades.
'Nuff said.

[Jack & Coke]

Calvin,

I agree...:)

You could use either a digital fishscale while shooting balls at the chrono station...

http://www.digital-weighing-scales.co.uk/ProdImages/fishwebsmall.jpg

or

you use the AGD method...

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=647248

(just make sure the breech is empty! ;))

[SN0BL1ND]

THEY TEAR THE WHOLE FREAKIN' GUN DOWN AND EMPTY THIER POCKET CHANGE?????? Are those Canadian or American coins?:D

[Deep Sixx]

Originally posted by fallout11
Street racing didn't exist 4 years ago, except in Japan.
It's a fad here, like it was there (already fading in Japan).


WHAT?!?!! :eek: :rolleyes: Where did you come up with that? Street racing has been around as long as cars have been on the road. People have been trying to make their vehicle faster than their friend's since the days of the Model 'T'!

sixx

[fallout11]

I meant "Tuned Import Street Racing", because I assumed (wrongly?) that's what teenage 68magowner was referring to.

If you mean street drag racing, yeah, that's been around since the late 40's.
But that's not even a legitimate sport (and is illegal in all 50 states), so what's the point of even mentioning it?

Why not just mention auto theft instead? It's been around a long time, and auto thieves try hard to get better at it, and use the latest tools and techniques.

[DementedRabbit]

Originally posted by Z-man
What about people like me with the Mech RT that can do 22bps? My RT is not modifited in any way but I can outshoot about anyone with this heavy trigger of mine ;).


Then RTs probably need to go, too.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by DementedRabbit


Then RTs probably need to go, too.

Blasphemy!:D

[DementedRabbit]

Well, it would be a hard choice to make, but if you want to make the trigger pull the same across the board, they have to go :p

[Arawn]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke


Blasphemy!:D

Maybe.
But if the point of the exercise is to curtail the arms/speed race, the RT is definitely suspect.

(J&C, yes I saw the smiley, but I have noticed a trend of "mech only includes RT" or "RT doesn't violate the one pull one ball rule" around here)

;)

B.

[badinfo]

Cledford, agreed.
Its easy to check, and it works across the board for everyone.

I am curious to see how the arguments break down here as far as age of posters. I think I can predict the outcome though :D

[Deep Sixx]

Originally posted by fallout11
I meant "Tuned Import Street Racing", because I assumed (wrongly?) that's what teenage 68magowner was referring to.

If you mean street drag racing, yeah, that's been around since the late 40's.
But that's not even a legitimate sport (and is illegal in all 50 states), so what's the point of even mentioning it?

Why not just mention auto theft instead? It's been around a long time, and auto thieves try hard to get better at it, and use the latest tools and techniques.

Street drag racing started in the '40s? Nope... it's been around since the late 1900's. Like I said, it's as old as the automobile itself. Everyone has always wanted to be faster than the other guy. But you're right... it's always been illegal.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Tuned Import Street Racing". I'm not familiar with that class. Is it an SCCA thing? If you mean imports running in "Street Stock" class racing, you're still off... try 1960s, if not before.

sixx

[Z-man]

I think he means "RICE RICE BABY!"

VTECH, airplane class wing, and Yuban coffee exhaust class.

[Mossman]

Originally posted by Z-man
I think he means "RICE RICE BABY!"

VTECH, airplane class wing, and Yuban coffee exhaust class.
...blowing through the 1/8th mile in 12 seconds infront of the local highschool.

[68magOwner]

no, i wasnt referring to any particular type of street racing. anyway, oh yea, i can tear up the streets with my 4 cylinders of raw power :rolleyes: :p
-edit- seriously, i cant even make it up steep hills with teh AC on :( time for a super charger ;) :D

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Back on topic, one thought would be that the RT affect should absolutely be disallowed. The idea of one shot one pull is you apply the pressure, it fires, you release and reapply new pressure. RT would be that you apply the force once and each additional pull requires no additional force, just the maintenance of finger position, so it would be under the weight limit.

In all this mech tourney talk, it is important to distinguish whether this is an attempt to clean up the sport and produce a legitimized contest with the SP suit just being a catalyst for the idea to progress..... or if it is simply a way for companies like AGD to manipulate the market so they're the top dogs in it and can push out Empire, DYE, SP, and such. I guess the motives of those developing the idea and supporting the idea will determine if this is a noble cause or a marketing ploy that would make the stuff SP pulls look innocent by comparison. This is like a car company producing a killer performance innovation and because the people running the event produce cars that they don't want to license the part for, that they find an excuse to ban it solely for their own gain instead of the good of the sport when one of their own products is more risky but still allowed. I may be wrong, but if runaway/sweetspotting is allowed, I'd feel safer in the electro trigger bounce tourneys.

[Brophog]

That's a good thought, but I kinda disagree.

Most of the high end electros are very good markers. The thought among some is that people are wanting a lower bps to help bring back the mechanicals, and be a fall for the electros. I don't think that is true.

Most of the electros are very stable shooters. They have very low kick, operate at a very low pressure, are efficient, and have valve chambers capable of high recharge rates.

They would be top quality at 10 bps.

Maybe if we lowered bps, the mechanicals wouldn't fall prey to sheer "evolution" like the pumps did long ago, but I don't think it would be a killing blow for the electros either.

[cledford]

I kinda disagree on the RT. As long as it takes X amount of weight to cause the trigger to break then it should be good. Bounce is illegal and not permitted.

That having been said, the ULT would be pretty attactive so maybe the RT would go by the wayside.

-Calvin

[DementedRabbit]

Allowing RTs almost gets you back to where you started for limiting the rate of fire.

If the mech-only movement comes off as being "in bed" with AGD and their RT line, you're going to have a difficult time trying to argue anything on the basis of ROF.

But then again, isn't it? Yeah, I'm aware of where I'm posting this, but I'm seeing a lot of what can be read as "sore loser" postings by people who remain mechanical for financial or "moral high ground" reasons.

If there's this big "noble" cause to limit ROF by restricting triggers, you may as well be uniform in the restrictions and say "spring return or fixed pressure return only."

[Arawn]

Originally posted by cledford
I kinda disagree on the RT. As long as it takes X amount of weight to cause the trigger to break then it should be good. Bounce is illegal and not permitted.
That having been said, the ULT would be pretty attactive so maybe the RT would go by the wayside.
-Calvin

It doesn't sound at all to you like that would be forming the rules around the RT mode?

:confused:

With those rules as stated, RT allowed, and no bps cap in place, what would keep the industry from making RT into the next Debounce(or rather, "Bounce") setting?


B.

[Woogie12]

How many of these threads are there now? I didn't feel like reading all of the posts, but I just wanted to comment on this idea,.
This idea seems a bit over the top. You could just make everyone use revvies, or you could get insurance companies to step in. To affect the ROFwith the trigger pull, you would probably have to outrule electros, and I doubt that every player in the NPPL/PSP is going to want to shoot mech guns. I don't think that you should slow down the ROF so much that it takes away from a big part of the game today. Creating a trigger pull limit would just cause guns to slow down past the point of necessity for safety. It would cause an uproar in the paintball community. Just my .02

[lamby]

I think that the minimum trigger pull weight is the only way to easily slow the markers down that would be fair to e and mech class markers. I do not support that idea, and I think these threads are an attempt to make it look like the tourney players want this as much as the rec players (or noobs as the case may be)

The tourney guys I know accept the idea of getting hosed by these markers, but you have to remember 7 broken balls on you from one person means that you are still alive and the offending player is out. (overshooting rule that I have see in all tourneys) So go ahead and light me up (If I dont do it to you first :) ) I dont care it is part of the game.

Rec ballers on the other hand that have rental pirahanas have a complaint here. If the first time you show up you have the only mech gun on the field, sure you will have issues with the "super guns" Hell you would think that a RTP is a "supergun" compaired to yours.

If you want to cap this rec ball stuff to shake-and-pray hoppers that would be fine with me. give me a tippy 98 and lets go. If you want to limits tourneys to lets say revvys, I would say "ARE YOU NUTS?, WHAT IS THE POINT?" I think that speed ball is just that SPEED ball, not "alot of movement ball" or "lets see how I can effectively use my 200 paintballs ball" or "It dont matter how fast you get to your bunker because they are only shooting 1 ball a year ball"

It is SPEED ball You need to move FAST or you are hosed you need to think FAST as you dont have much time, and you have to SHOOT FAST. That is why it is SPEED BALL. If I want to shoot slow and walk in the woods I would grap my 12GA and blast squirels. (they taste better then noobs :) ) if want to play paintball, I want to do it on sup' air with 4 of my friends competing against another 5 friends.

If you have never played in a national level tourney. I think you should have NO say on the rules for national level events.

I also agree that RTs need to be banned as RTs are "bounce". Didn't they make a mechanical reactive trigger assist for cockers that was banned due to speeds of over 22bps? Either way, if you want to put a cap on something that means it can not shoot over that speed. You can not restrict a mechanical marker to a maximum so I think all manuals should be banned. only marker allowed is a capped, non buffered, minimum trigger pull tension, electro marker.

What I suggest in the end is let the sport do what the sport is going to do. I know non-ballers that are watching the pros on OLN and the first thing they say is "That is cool, how are they able to move around like that when they are shooting so fast?" my answer is always "That is where the skill comes in" Think about it.

Paintball is getting more main stream, and the rec ball stuff is not driving the ship to TV coverage. The splatt attack thing on OLN was the most boring thing ever (well made, and professional, but BORING)
The 5 man cup stuff was much more enjoyable to watch. People like the SPEED of the game. X-ball will only make it bigger.

[Z-man]

Just to play devil's advocate let me point out this:

While the RT valve is capable of pulling off stuff like that, it will not pull off what you saw in my video unless you have a high flow tank and an adjustable reg turned up pretty high. The RT valve is bouncy but not so that you can do that without tinkering

If my “How to Rapid-Fire” thread had not been killed off by whatever-the -guys-name is I would suggest you all read it (if you have not, its still in my sig). Most people with RT’s don’t rapid-fire and cannot do it to save their lives.

I have noticed that the bulk of the RT valved Mag users are either unaware of how to make your RT do this or have some misconceptions about how it works, but what it boils down to is pretty simple.

The RT valve can be dialed in a specific trigger feel that ranges from NO bounce and a soft pull to pretty much full auto fire if you have a good finger. The range in there between full auto and mush-feel trigger is all tourney legal. It depends ENTIRELY on the flow rate and output pressure your tank can perform.

Yes there is bounce but try as you might, you cannot hold it down and get the valve to rapid-fire. I can do about 15-16 bps without rapid firing the RT and I don't think you should cut out the RT based on the nature of the valve.

1 pull, 1 ball is where it should stand which the RT performs without any strings attatched.

its VERY obvious when an RT is rapid firing due to its consistency and speed so if someone was doing it, they could be dealt with.

Besides cheating still will be attempted. People like to grind away at their sear pins and end up with full-auto ONLY RT's. Like any good idea, people will still try and subvert it.

Lastly, if people are STILL grumbling about the RT you could say that the RT's are ok as long as you use the ULT. That thing is the bane of my existence because when its installed PROPERLY (none of this add a bunch of shims and get a full auto RT crap) its near impossible to get ANY bounce out if it. I liken it to the Classic Valve.

Just some options and thoughts on the nature of the RT Valve.

[Woogie12]

Everyone complains about overshooting, but it doesn't happen all that often. I rarely see anyone overshot in NPPL videos or even while I'm at the events. I played in a local tourney and there were no problems with overshooting as with 3 of my local fields.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by Woogie12
[B]

...I rarely see anyone overshot in NPPL videos...

[B]

haha... you're not watching the right videos :)

http://www.derderpaintball.com/

:eek:

[Arawn]

Even in the Vegas PanAm, which I found to be a good tourney and a good time, I saw quite a bit of overshooting.



B.