ok, I ask you. Whats with all the "speed" threads?

[-=Squid=-]

Ok, over the last week I have seen SO many threads regarding mandatory speed restrictions. Tell me, is there something I DONT know here because this is the ONLY forum going crazy with the idea.

I just dont see why we should do it. All the reasons I see are easily cancelled out, especially the fact that some people cant afford it. I am 16, no job, and my parents rarely give me money for paintball, and I go through as much paint as I need, which is usually a lot. Money management folks, why should paintball change because some people dont play as religiously as others?

Safety issues? When has there EVER been a problem with safety due to speed? The ONLY one I can think of is
the Lasoya incident, which was settled that he was cheating, not a speed issue.

On top of those reasons not to, what about cost? You CANT ban force feed loaders, it would put odyssey out of business, and tick a LOT of people off who payed $130 for a HALO. It would be VERY hard to cap markers, because most boards dont have the feature, there you go, another lump of money out of the players pockets.

So, without flaming ( I know how AO is) tell my WHY we should cap them? Please, dont throw me hackneyed things which ive already explained above.

In MY opinion, speed is here to stay. To me, its a change which I welcome with open arms. Right now, I like the image paintball has, and the speed of markers makes it more interesting to watch for non-ballers. If I wanted to see people tat tat tat at each other I would watch recball, and I feel that people who dont like the speed of expensive markers should either try one themselves or play rec. And because people can be pretty defensive, im not bashing rec. At all. Dont even comment on it.

So, what do you think?

- Master Nick Blick

[Woogie12]

I agree with you completely. IMO, the only effective and cost effective way to cap these markers in tournies would be to make everybody use revvies. This would still cause an uproar. If one series, say NPPL or PSP, were to enforce a cap on markers, most of the teams would just jump straight to the other series. I just don't think a BPS cap would go over too well.

[GT]

2 reasons:

1. dynamic game play;
2. greater potential for tourney growth

[teufelhunden]

Originally posted by gtrsi
2 reasons:

1. dynamic game play;
2. greater potential for tourney growth

Play isn't dynamic now?

Tourneys aren't growing?

[Brophog]

We can ban force feed loaders. We did it once already.

Oh yeah, then somehow the ban was pulled so that Odyssey could get in the market.

Your not bringing anything new to the table here. The reason we have so many posts on speed is the fact so many people keep doing what you are doing and making a new post.

And these threads are popping up on other, smaller boards. It has been happening for the past couple of months.

The fact remains that people like the game where it is, and paintball is still getting faster. That is one of the reasons for the talk of some form of restrictions.

Your talk of playing rec vs tourney is something I have heard repeatedly this week, and must protest. Tourney styles always filter down to rec. Markers, technique, clothing....it all filters down eventurally. Part of the beef is that rec players are now being shot at with the high ROF. They don't necessarily want that. For many it is ruining the game for them. Plus, it is one thing to be shot at in a tourney with those guns. It kinda comes with the territory, always has. However, its another to be overshot with these markers from a 10 year old with an inchy trigger finger.

The polls on this site seem to suggest that there is a definite want for some kind of maximum ROF control. I stand by the idea that the ROF used now is the maximum ROF for any breakable distance a paintball will travel, provided the person shot is not using excessive padding or excessive clothing. One of my arguments is that there is no longer an inherent advantage to shooting faster. So why bother? You are just inviting these safety arguments to take place if you continue to sell and manufacture markers that are faster than they need be. One day, someone outside of the sport will step in and set restrictions for us. I'd rather set the restrictions from inside the paintball community, and I feel that a maximum ROF would be a good step towards keeping outsiders from undue legistature. The rate of fire (somewhere between 15-20) that I and several others are proposing is still very high, and would not change the sport in any way.

The fact that there are questionable triggers and marker setups hurts us from an integrity standpoint. One of the reasons full auto and other "assisted" methods are not allowed is that they are deemed unsafe by insurance and outsiders to the sport. I feel that by working around these protocols by using questionable triggers and circuit boards/programming that outsiders to the sport may lose faith in our ability to self-regulate. Self-regulation has been what has stood between paintball and outside sources ever since the beginning. Our use of chronos, BBD, and full face masks have saved us from undue legislation. I would hope that a reasonable BPS limit would be able to do the same.

I maintain my belief that the players can control the ROF and keep the sport safe. However, the past 4 years, the markers have rapidly gained in speed, and players have gotten much younger. That's not a real good combination to have. We have jumped *almost* 10 bps in the last 5 years!! Even when semi's came into the market, the pumps were still faster. It took a long time for semi's to be faster than pumps, and the gap still wasn't that big. We are now seeing HUGE gaps in rate of fire between the different marker segments, and I think that alarms some people.

I don't think it would be as big of a deal if the sport was more segmented into classes. As it stands, we're still one big open class. This, as much as anything, constitutes the debate currently going on.

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

The only reason that a cap makes any sense, is because it is so hard to control cheaters. Or at least the ones who are cheating, by programming there board to have some crazy bounce etc..

But the fact is eventually people could just as easily have a little button hidden somewhere, that turns up or off the cap.

[GT]

Originally posted by teufelhunden
Play isn't dynamic now?
Tourneys aren't growing?

Not at the rate I have in mind. I get so excited when I think of the possiblities of truly bridging the rec tourney gap...alas, if all you see is 1% of the market you miss the other 99% of the big picture.




I don't think it would be as big of a deal if the sport was more segmented into classes.

I have said this millions of times. There is a boatload of money to be made in other segments of tourny play. The question is who is going to get the balls up to start such play.

jb

[DiSoRdeR]

People now days only care about ROF. Do you ever see people saying about how to be more accurate? Well may be some times lol but mostly its just about what or who has the most ROF. They seem to think ROF=Pro material. They watch people in tournaments with high ROF, and imitate what they see. Hay Im just happy with a plane old mech, Ill probablly never go electro. Simpley dont want a high ROF, More ROF=More spent on paint. Spray and Pray tactics seem to be growing, what happened to one shot one kill? lol

[oldsoldier]

Well, I think that having different classes for tourneys (i.e. mechanical, pump, etc). This would kill this whole debate.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by DiSoRdeR
People now days only care about ROF. Do you ever see people saying about how to be more accurate? Well may be some times lol but mostly its just about what or who has the most ROF. They seem to think ROF=Pro material. They watch people in tournaments with high ROF, and imitate what they see. Hay Im just happy with a plane old mech, Ill probablly never go electro. Simpley dont want a high ROF, More ROF=More spent on paint. Spray and Pray tactics seem to be growing, what happened to one shot one kill? lol Well why restrict the people who WANT electros, just because you dont?

[DiSoRdeR]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Well why restrict the people who WANT electros, just because you dont?
Just cause I dont want one, doesnt mean I dont like them... Alot of electros are very nice, still thinking if I will buy one :D I know you can switch it to semi if you want, and such. I got nothing against them, I just wouldnt want to pay more for paint. When I can have the same amout of fun with a mech. And I never said any one should restict people from buying them, I was just stating my opinion on the subject of ROF.

[LudavicoSoldier]

I think that what it really is is that there are alot of rec-ballers on this board, some of whome dont give a $hit about competition paintball. With speed becoming so prevalant in higher end guns, some of us rec-ballers fear that paintball simply wont be as fun as it was before. The new technology always gets farmed out into the lower end guns over time. Before you know it, even n00bs will be shooting 25BPS with their superfckingfast whatever that only cost them less than $250, on the recball field. I was never one for the paintball firehose. I dont want to see it, or play against it in rec games. Eventually new players wont even know what its like to shoot under 15BPS. I find that sad.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by spleefstylez
I think that what it really is is that there are alot of rec-ballers on this board, some of whome dont give a $hit about competition paintball. With speed becoming so prevalant in higher end guns, some of us rec-ballers fear that paintball simply wont be as fun as it was before. The new technology always gets farmed out into the lower end guns over time. Before you know it, even n00bs will be shooting 25BPS with their superfckingfast whatever that only cost them less than $250, on the recball field. I was never one for the paintball firehose. I dont want to see it, or play against it in rec games. Eventually new players wont even know what its like to shoot under 15BPS. I find that sad. I generally agree with that, but you might wanna watch the language. That stuff gets you banned on AO ;)

[RRfireblade]

I think your biggest misconception is that those who'd like to see a restriction of some kind don't shoot electros. Wrong.Also,you seem to think that all the complainers are slow shooters.Wrong again.Maybe some,but definately not all.

I shoot almost exclusively electro except for outlaw rec ball and local fun days.As for speed,I'll put my speed up against anybody,anywhere w/ an equally legal set up.What upsets me most in regards to this debate is how easy it is for any idiot w/ an allen wrench to turn his marker into a completely illegal and unsafe product.

I do agree, however, that these types of cheats as well as many others are very hard to stop with any real consistancy.I also don't think it's fair to those of us who have developed our own skill the old fashioned way,to be in a heads up ROF contest w/ any Tom,Don and Harry who has a couple hundred bucks and $1 worth of tools.

There has to be and should be some way to fix that situation.The point of these threads is to hopefully stumble upon something that might get the job done.Simply,if your fully legal in your setup and fully capable in your fingers,you should not feel threatend by any of this talk.The fact that you are implys that your concerned that you'll be out matched on a truly even playing field.

Perhaps that's the real problem.;)

[-=Squid=-]

Trust me, my playing ability doesnt have anything to do with this ;) I dont cheat, I keep my debounce perfectly legal, but I can without ANY problem hit beyond 14bps, no problem.

[Woogie12]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Trust me, my playing ability doesnt have anything to do with this ;) I dont cheat, I keep my debounce perfectly legal, but I can without ANY problem hit beyond 14bps, no problem.
I'm the same deal, but I shoot a speed and I have tried day after day to find bounce just to mess around. I can not bounce it. :D

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Trust me, my playing ability doesnt have anything to do with this ;) I dont cheat, I keep my debounce perfectly legal, but I can without ANY problem hit beyond 14bps, no problem.

Well then you shouldn't really be concerned then.I feel a properly applied cap of some sort,if done right,will give the edge BACK to us.

Jay.

[Nick O time]

i totally agree with you Squid. and the forcefeed loader ban would be retarded because of the reasons already stated. i love all of my guns and just because some people can't shoot as fast, don't wanna get lit up, can't afford it, or whatever doesn't mean they should put a cap on it. its just a big pain in the arse to put a bps cap on stuff imo. i love speed, speed is my friend.

[Quickling]

Here is my beef. In rec play. Tourney is a different beef...

Think back to 98-00 when the "super-guns" first came out. Mags and Cockers ruled. Angels and shockers were still new. At the end of a days play of rec most everyone went home happy.

I took a break until 2003.

Now I see kids with shockers that light people up so bad they go off the field bleeding and crying. I am not joking I see way more blood now then ever before. Part of it is the smaller fields, but a lot comes from 10+ hits in a bunkering move.

I surrendered a kid once and as he was walking out another kid ran up and lit him up. While the kid I surrendered had a bright pink barrel bag on and was obviously out. The kid with the E-spyder that lit him up went off the field laughing.

If you add some sort of cap you start to control the amount of over shooting the happens in REC PLAY. There is no reason that you should have to deal with over shooting in rec. You shouldn't in tournies either but most especially not in rec.

Segment the sport? Look around. How many pumpers or mech users are at your field? Enough to start another field? No.

Segmenting the sport is dealing the death blow to mechs. We will be too few and far between to play. Mech will go the way of the pump, where most of use drive 3+ hours for a game.

No we have to make one unified game that while accepting the E-gun also controls it. Maybe we should inforce stiffer penalties for overshooting. Not just your out for the next 2 minutes while this game ends... to your out for the day/week/month.. depending on offence.

I just think its sick to see a kid bragging that his first day with his new 03 shocker was also the day he made a girl start crying as the hits on her neck oozed blood. And this mentality is ever more prevalent with the electro.

[-=Squid=-]

Personally, I think in walk on play a cap or rules like that should be enforced. Im strictly talking about tournement play.

[Brophog]

I agree with most of what you say Quickling, except the segment part.

You know as well as I that their are a lot of "hidden" pumpers out there. There are a lot of people that own pumps that just dont use them because they feel they cannot keep in the open atmosphere with the high end guns of today.

Translate that over to mechanicals now. People that once had autocockers and mags are now bringing an electro to compete because they don't feel they have a chance otherwise.

I think we have plenty of pumps, mechanicals, and electros to segment the sport up, and make more money doing so.

Look at other sports. Auto racing is broken up into a hundred categories. They can do that because the cars only have to compete against like cars. If everyone was on the same turf, then one style would rule all, and their would be fewer manufacturers, distributors, retail outlets, and race car drivers.

I see paintball in a similiar situation. If we had more pump and mechanical segments, we'd have more people, more fields, more of everything. There are people out there every day that quit this sport because they don't like the atmosphere. Likewise, if we got rid of electros, there would be people that quit the sport to try other hobbies.

Why not make both groups happy? I cannot think of any other sport that is lumped all together like we are. I was just watching Winter X games. Not all snowboarders did all the snowboarding events. Not all skiers did skiing events, and so on.

Some snowboarders like trick competitions. Some like speed competitions. Others like street type courses, but not half pipes. Some like them all.

How is that any different than your average mag user that likes his semi auto, but doesn't feel the game needs to get as fast and control based as it has become with the electros? Or the average stock class player that feels 2 balls is 1 too many? Or the woods player that wants to use stealth to move around unseen?

We have a lot of different people in this sport, with different likes and dislikes. For too long now we've thought too linearly in terms of styles, equipment, and fields. Its time to branch out. There's a giant pie out there waiting to be eaten. Meanwhile, we're all fighting over the same slice.

[50 cal]

Let people shoot as fast as they want to. Just don't pound the n00bs. I've seen it done and then justified in thier mind as "If they want to play they have to learn to take it".
Every time I hear that from some jerk with the latest whiz bang Super Squirter I want to choke them out. I usually head hunt them if I can(with my Phantom).
I've drilled a guy point blank to the back of the neck to get the point across. It doesn't win me any friends sometimes, but I hate to see n00bs pounded on.

The tourney players know ahead of time what they are getting into with the high ROF guns. They have no one to blame but themselves. If they want it changed, there are enough of them to change it. If the manufacterers want it changed, they can do it on their own too.

Just one guys honest opinion.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Personally, I think in walk on play a cap or rules like that should be enforced. Im strictly talking about tournement play.

Heck if the current rules were enforced it would be a start.

Language, attitude, wiping, overshooting....

One rule that might really change the sport is what constitutes a 'hit'. The broken paint the size of a quarter rule is fine for resolving arguments when no one saw anything. But if a ref sees balls bounce of a player, shouldn't they be called out?

All comes back to having decent refs. Unfortunately, it would seem many are much more eager to pay a small fortune in tourney fees to have a slim chance at a boatload of goodies than they are to pay a decent price for a good match and bragging rights of a title.

[DK1]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


Heck if the current rules were enforced it would be a start.

Language, attitude, wiping, overshooting....



Truth spoken by this man!

Before we come up with new rules, why don't we try enforcing the one's we've got? I mean, if we don't enforce what we've got now... it doesn't really matter if we put a cap in. People will just let it slide like everything else.

For one, I'd LOVE to see a tourney where they actually take points off for filthy language and whining screaming teams. I've heard a lot of people say they were going to do it, but it never happens.

I know that the field Squid plays at use to have those as major problems when I played there. Whiners, and people always calling for checks just because they are shooting AT sombody. Crap that is just petty. Bad attitudes are a lot of the reason I quit playing tournies, not high ROF guns.

DK1

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


Heck if the current rules were enforced it would be a start.

Language, attitude, wiping, overshooting....

One rule that might really change the sport is what constitutes a 'hit'. The broken paint the size of a quarter rule is fine for resolving arguments when no one saw anything. But if a ref sees balls bounce of a player, shouldn't they be called out?

All comes back to having decent refs. Unfortunately, it would seem many are much more eager to pay a small fortune in tourney fees to have a slim chance at a boatload of goodies than they are to pay a decent price for a good match and bragging rights of a title. AGREED! Why make MORE rules when they can barely enforce the currently enstated rules? Well said, man!

EDIT: DK1 - I agree with the penalties on sour sports. Evil Factory is the biggest whiners I Have EVER seen. At the memphis indoor they whined about every tiny thing. Eventually a player punched a refs shield. They should have been thrown out, and I am EXTREMELY glad that didnt win.

[Scircal]

Heh, wow! A thread on this subject that's finally lacking in vituperation. Wonder how long that'll last... ;)

Anyway, I've read several of these posts over the past week, and some of the stuff I find a little surprising. The mech/rec ballers seem to be complaining that 10-year-olds are walking out on the woods field with their new-fangled Shocktech Warped Dark Demon Angel A-16, with a WAS lightning tornado sonic board and teched-in special order cheat software and apple pie maker (okay, okay, a little overboard...) that cost the same as a small car. Yeah, I've seen those kids, but to be honest, they mainly suck in woods ball and all that suped up equipment doesn't help. Sure, if you're on a closet-sized field, even with bunkers, hosing people will score eliminations. But not when you play on a couple acres with trees, shrubs, tall grass, etc. in the way. I've scored surrender eliminations COUNTLESS times on these types. I shoot a mag. Now if it's a good player with an electro, then it is a bit harder, but I've found much easier than on the speedball course. I've been stitched up plenty of times by Timmys and such on the speedball course. Rarely has it happened to me in woodsball.

Now the fields I've played at generally do a good job of separating the newbs or divying up the players based on gun speed. Heck, one field I play at WILL NOT allow experienced players to play against the newb groups unless the group gives permission. At others that only have speedball-type courses, the refs usually insist on dividing up the players based on their equipment. Are you guys telling me your fields don't do this at all? I find that a little hard to believe, but not impossible (maybe some fields don't like happy customers). But that is a problem with the field/owner/ref, not the high ROF gun, electro or otherwise. As several people have said, the fix should be in enforcing the current rules.

I do not believe in forcing manufacturers to limit BPS. However, if fields or leagues want to do it for a tourney or scenario or just do it for their field in general, I have no problem with that. People can vote with their feet, so to speak. What I find disingenuous about some of the "limit BPS" arguments is that people say it's because their first priority is safety. If that was the truth, there are at least half a dozen ways I can think of off the top of my head to make paintball safer without limiting bps, and they are just as easy if not easier.

When I started playing, I rented pumps because that was all that was available at the field. I knew a guy with a VM-68 (a.k.a. the most durable marker ever) and there was a guy who played and reffed at the field who'd gotten a new gun called (drum roll, please) the AutoMag. The pumps COULD NOT keep up, and there were plenty of people who complained about not being able to compete and it being unfair and so on. The Mag guy could snap off 8, 9 and even 10 balls a second. The pumpers were lucky to get half that. Did the Mag destroy the sport? No. Neither will high-speed electros. I also remember when nitrogen tanks were being introduced and all the safety concerns there. Those complaints eventually went away as it became clear N2 systems weren't as dangerous as initially thought.

All that said, I think additional divisions in tournaments for equipment would be a good idea. I know at least one field within a couple hours drive that has started hosting a pump-only tourney in the past couple years and it's apparently been a success. So I think this is possible, especially for mech only. At all the fields I play at, at least half the people with their own guns shoot mechs, and at least half those shooting electros shoot low-end electors (which, in my experience, don't hold up to a X-valved mag). I don't see this "mech is an extreme minority" thing, but maybe the fields I play at are the exception.

Now after wandering all over the map, I'll come back to the thread topic and a point (sorry, it's late). I don't see any reason, nor has any thread suggested a solid reason, to force manufacturers into a bps limit. If tourneys and fields want to impose a bps limit, then fine. There can be some that have the limit and others that don't. Forcing a blanket limit on the markers themselves will stifle innovation in a sport that has frankly been more innovative in styles of play and gear than any other I can think of.

[Beemer]

Anyway, I've read several of these posts over the past week,

Heh Heh Ya but did you read it all and actually comprehend anything you read:(

[LudavicoSoldier]

Originally posted by Scircal

Now the fields I've played at generally do a good job of separating the newbs or divying up the players based on gun speed. Heck, one field I play at WILL NOT allow experienced players to play against the newb groups unless the group gives permission. At others that only have speedball-type courses, the refs usually insist on dividing up the players based on their equipment. Are you guys telling me your fields don't do this at all? I find that a little hard to believe, but not impossible (maybe some fields don't like happy customers). But that is a problem with the field/owner/ref, not the high ROF gun, electro or otherwise. As several people have said, the fix should be in enforcing the current rules.



It really depends on the field. The ones that cater almost exclusively to the tourny baller do a terrible job of splitting up the equpiment/skill level, at least around here. Every game is a "practice" and if you want to play, you have to play with the team kiddies.

There ARE rec fields around here, and they do a great job of splitting things up. Again, depends on the fields focus.

[Brophog]

Originally posted by Scircal

Now after wandering all over the map, I'll come back to the thread topic and a point (sorry, it's late). I don't see any reason, nor has any thread suggested a solid reason, to force manufacturers into a bps limit. If tourneys and fields want to impose a bps limit, then fine. There can be some that have the limit and others that don't. Forcing a blanket limit on the markers themselves will stifle innovation in a sport that has frankly been more innovative in styles of play and gear than any other I can think of.

How about this then......because the manufacturers cannot do it themselves.

This is not a new idea. Paintball has self regulated itself for years. The serious idea of a bps limit has been around since the mid 90's, the problem has always been one of not having a central governing body to enforce it. 13 bps has been agreed to several times, only to get the wink and handshake job.

One of the alarming reasons for getting a limit under way now is the rapid speed by which we are suddenly gaining balls per second. As I said before, we've gone up almost 10 bps in 5 years. Loaders are getting ready to hit the market rated at 27 and 30, respectively. There are already markers out there cycling that fast.

I believe that 15 bps in comparison is little to ask an industry to adhere to. They will have to stop somewhere because I guarantee you there is an outside body, whether it be insurance, ANSI, or through undue legislation, that will slow us down. It would be a whole lot easier for us to self regulate ourselves, as we have done with things we did not want to do in the past.

This is a much bigger issue than trying to blame it on "keeping up with electros", or "being able to buy an electro". We have always been able to keep outsiders back through our self regulation. Being able to say we have established safe practices, and follow them, is the only thing that has kept us legal at times. There are not only countries around the world where our sport is illegal, but places in this country where it is banned. You and I may think it safe, but we're responsible adults. There are people out there everyday that have never stepped on a field, who see the sudden rise in balls per second, and see the lack of effort by the industry to regulate itself on this matter, and see the lack of integrity displayed in circumventing the "assisted trigger" rules. These are the people that will try to take this sport away from us. Some have tried every day since most of you were born. We've always been able to keep our sport safe enough to keep them back.

The injury numbers are going up fast though, and correct or not, non paintball people are correlating this with the sudden rise in balls per second.

I urge some of you to step back from this argument and re-evaluate your stance. A reasonable cap on this sport is not an unreasonable thing to ask.

[fallout11]

Up to the top, for a good, civil discussion thread (for a change!)

[Rebel46_99]

Originally posted by DK1


Truth spoken by this man!

Before we come up with new rules, why don't we try enforcing the one's we've got? I mean, if we don't enforce what we've got now... it doesn't really matter if we put a cap in. People will just let it slide like everything else.

For one, I'd LOVE to see a tourney where they actually take points off for filthy language and whining screaming teams . I've heard a lot of people say they were going to do it, but it never happens.

DK1

This is something that has been discussed in the past although I can't find the thread. (Yes guys, I did do a search. :p ) And at that time, I was told that with the likes of certain coaches roaming the sidelines swearing up a storm, because of who they were, that nothing was ever going to be done. My point was that those are exactly the people who should be nailed for those type of infractions. IF they ever finally (I know, good frickin' luck!! :rolleyes: ) realized that their actions would cost them points, and possibly a championship, and IF Tournament Directors and Referees found the cajones to enforce their own rules, then MAYBE you might see some things turn around. But, as long as they (THEY being high profile coaches and players) are allowed to "run the show", the rest of us may as well stick our thumbs in our backsides, smile and say, "Thank you sir, may I have another."

DW

[hardr0ck68]

No one said they were going to break into every HALO owners house and steal their gear. No ones taking it away from them. This is just another option to be explored. If I am a tourny premoter and I want to hold a tourny with only gravity feed loaders that shoulde'nt be an uproar. Now as a player, if I could find a tourny that was gravity feed only trust me I would be there. If I could find a tourny that limmited paint use, or gave points for conserving paint I would be there, and if I could find a mech only tourny then I would be there. Why? we all have our own reasons mine is fingers that move at 5bps while a gun shoots at 26bps... SO yeah, do I want to change the NPPL or PSP? no not at all. Do I want to put Odossey under? No I love my HALO...do I want devision choices when I go play tourny series and local stuff? HELL YES. And I would be willing to pay more and drive farther to experiance them!!

[Scircal]

Being able to say we have established safe practices, and follow them, is the only thing that has kept us legal at times. There are not only countries around the world where our sport is illegal, but places in this country where it is banned. You and I may think it safe, but we're responsible adults.


Okay, since safety is your major concern, let me make you a counter-offer: mandate the use of thicker goggles with full head protection masks and lower fps to 200-220. Both of those options are just as if not more enforceable than a BPS cap.



There are people out there everyday that have never stepped on a field, who see the sudden rise in balls per second, and see the lack of effort by the industry to regulate itself on this matter, and see the lack of integrity displayed in circumventing the "assisted trigger" rules.

If they've never stepped on a field, how will they have seen "the sudden rise in balls per second?" They will just see some really fast shooting. The possible reactions to that are myriad. But my guess is the bigger hump to get over is that people run around shooting projectiles at each other with "guns." In fact, that's largely the reason I hear why people won't walk on to a field. Not because of the number of bps. In fact, I've never heard that complaint from someone who's never played. I have heard it from some people who play once in a while, and like I said, at the field I normally play at, the owner won't let the experienced players play with the newb group without their consent.

As for lack of integrity enforcing rules, I agree it's damaging. A lot of that is due to the fact that more players are under 18 these days, resulting in more refs under 18. I'd suggest one way to help that problem is to have ref certification courses or something of the like.


The injury numbers are going up fast though, and correct or not, non paintball people are correlating this with the sudden rise in balls per second.

Actually, the non-paintball people are correlating injury with the rise in youth (<18) playing and the lack of use of basic safety equipment.



Many injuries occur because players are not wearing goggles or face masks, said researcher Dr. David Listman of St. Barnabas Hospital in New York. ...

The game is played at organized paintball centers, which usually provide and require face masks, Listman said. But children often play without protective equipment in woods, back yards or even basements, he said.

Source: Study Finds Paintball Injuries On Rise
January 5, 2004

Nothing about bps. Nothing even about faulty safety equipment. The problem is NO safety equipment. Now if you're worried about the non-sports media (i.e. most news departments in media) being a the problem and wanting to impress them, forget it. You can't. As I've said, the problem isn't bps, it's the intrinsic nature of the sport in which you fire "guns" at each other. I've worked in news rooms at newspapers and I can tell you THAT is the major sticking point. People I've talked to or tried to introduce to the sport never said "Okay, I'd like to play, but will they be firing 10 bps or 20 bps?" Forget trying to impress the media, those that are open to paintball, by and large, will be open to it in most all its flavors. Those that are reluctant don't like it because they perceive it as "spreading the culture of violence" or "feeding America's insatiable desire for guns" or some other non-bps-related gobbletygook.

As for the laws against the sport and areas where it's banned, that's related, again, to the idea of shooting projectiles at someone with a "gun" and the concern over kids shooting each other in the eye.

If insurers won't insure fields that allow unlimited bps, I'm more than willing to accept that. They won't insure fields that don't require goggles and full-face masks. Insurers exerting pressure on the industry is nothing new. But they are only going to do that if there are studies saying there is a statistically significant correlation between increase in bps and increase in injuries. There aren't any of those.


Heh Heh Ya but did you read it all and actually comprehend anything you read

Yes I did. Thanks for the subtle insinuation that I'm a moron because I disagree with you. Next time, just come out and say it.

[hardr0ck68]

BTW, at the Sever open I played with Oswego State Paintball Club and yeah I was pulled for swearing at a guy who was playing on. He was on a run threw and we blasted him before he got past the 40, but he kept running and i kept shooting him then of course he tried to bunker one of my mid guys he misses the mid guy puts more paint on him and he finally walks off i yelled something a lil bit not so nice and got pulled for it. But yeah OSU OWNED them in the end so its all good :P

[Paint-Fool]

Limiting bps will not stop over shooting. Just because a marker is capped at 13 bps instead of 20 bps won't change a thing. It comes down to the person behind the trigger having some self control. There is no way to regulate that. Some people will still use bounce or some other mode of cheating no matter what the cap is. The only way to stop it and weed those peole out is to enforce rules. The field owner or refs need to peanlize those people severly for constant over shooting. Throw them out for a day or a weekend or whatever. Maybe even a permanent ban from the field if the do it too often. If the reason people want it lowered is for safety you need to lower the bps to maybe 5bps to really make it safe.

[Brophog]

They're not going to start writing legislation against us for the use of facemasks. We have full face masks, and apart from some instances, we enforce that rule pretty well.

But are you really going to tell me that these super high bps won't be getting similiar attention in a few years? We're talking 30 bps here!! That'll leave a mark.

It doesn't take long for little johnny's bruises to get tied back to some idiot shooting 30 bps. Its one thing to be overshoot with 5 balls, but when your marker can hit 30, your going to get quite a bit larger mark as it becomes harder and harder to not overshoot. You must respect people's ability to blow things out of proportion. You get a few mad parents together, and they start talking to city councilmen. It escalates from there.

How will the paintball community react to this. You gonna say, "Well we discussed it, but my kid had more fun shooting 30 bps, even though 15 would have been just as much fun." If we don't set any kind of restriction, we have nothing to fall back on in this situation.

Compare that to facemasks. We say "We have a strict policy of full facemask use that is enforced at all times."

The problem I see with the anti-restriction argument is your not forward thinking enough. It takes time to put together a valid restriction and implement it. Every month that we don't work toward that goal it becomes increasingly harder to implement. We have a half dozen loader companies and 2 dozen marker companies right now trying to squeeze every bps out of their equipment because they know little johnny will buy it due in large part to that BPS number on the side of the box.

I'm not unreasonable in my limitation. Right now, SOME limitation is a start to keep the mess under control.

I don't want to change the game. Whether I agree or disagree with tourney style ball is irrelevant. The bps I and others are posting will not hurt that style of ball. They will not ban electros.

I don't see the reason, NOT to have a limitation, aside from inconvenience on the part of manufacturers. Manufacturers of all kinds have to deal with these things. They'll adapt, and if we act soon enough, we can inact grandfather clauses so that very few items need to be changed.

The longer it goes, the more you HURT the manufacturers on this.