AO OD - Time for something fresh.

[Ronin 23]

There is no other owner's group community like AO...and that's a fact.

But as a community, it behooves us to stay on the cutting edge not only to show the rest of the paintball community who we are but also create marketing opportunities for AGD.

To many outside our community, the concept of AO Days has gotten stale and corny. Keeping it constantly fresh and dynamic is the goal of this totally inclussionary brain-storming effort. NO ONE PARTICULAR PERSON CAN OR SHOULD TAKE CREDIT for the creation of this concept. This is purely a cooperative effort by AOers and for AOers worldwide.

Some ideas have been previously posted in the PBX Battlezone thread. Some good and some.....er just plain goofy. Keep in mind that there will be some underage members who will be participating in these events (hey W. Pug, sorry 'bout the t&a concepts).

Let the suggestions begin.....

[abarnhar]

AO-CO 3 is currently planned to have one day of senario play (Lord of the Rings theme at Action Pursuit Paintball) and then one day of speed (same place, different field) the next day. That way there is a little something for everybody. We also are drawing folks from five different states. That adds up to a lot of miles and a very large event.

I'm sure some odd outfits and/or shields will be in use during the senario play. But unless the outfit is truly classy, it will not make the transition to the speedball field.

Really to diversify a AO day, the only feasible tact is to thematize it. Of course, then you are in quasi-senario land.

[845]

Underage come on I can easily pull off 21 atleast maybe 31.

[Muzikman]

I'm not so sure the idea of the AO day has gotten stale or corny. In my mind each AO day is different, each is just the gathering of online friends (some of which I know better than my non on-line friends). The idea is to get together and have fun, whichever way it is presented. Be it playing some speedball just for fun, playing a small 3man tournament, a day in the woods playing a scenario game, or sitting around the hotel being goofy and drinking beer. Really, an AO day is and can be any gathering of AO members for whatever reason. Hell...AO-Windsor was a great AO Day for those who were there;)

If you are thinking about changing up the event, then that is fine, and I think that TexBall is doing just that. But I think no matter how hard you try, you will not remove the party and good time aspect of the event. This is the sole reason I come to these events, as I don't think I have played at any of the AO Days or gatherings.

All in all, the first AO Day (actually, weekend) was really the Mega Tour at AGD back in 01. Even though it was not called "AO Day" it was the first gathering of AO members in one place for a day or food, fun and play.

[cphilip]

hehehe.... I have some long term plans. Already have slowly introduce just a few of them each year, starting with the first one here in Clemson and then I added a few more of them to this last one... but I am keeping them for the SE event. Each one is bigger than that last in activities and scope. Culminating in something really big in a few years. Each baby step if it works begats the next one. Each theme a bit different and more extravigant than the last. And most of them are site specific and "my" resources specific so they wouldn't really transition well to elsewhere. But big stuff planned! That's all I can say...

[Muzikman]

Phil, umm...spill the beans damnit:) I mean it's still gonna include beer and the Wild Hog Band right? (I am actually listening to their CD right now at work:)).

I can see the events getting bigger and each one get better organized, but honestly, how much can you change?

[cphilip]

Well of course we continue traditions but we add to them. The Hotel wants to do all our meals on site for us. So thats going to be worked out. Next year we should or could have free T's for every participant. Sponsors might do that for us. We could have more of a AO specific type of trade show next year. Bigger and more vendors than last years...as its slowly becoming you might have noticed a slight move in that area of a trade show/event/party. I am going to put more effort into vendors being there this year with more cheap stuff. Thats going to get more attention than ever this coming year.

...We could at some point go INDOORS... a few years down the line. I already scoped and looking at a place here on campus that I and the places Manager are realy old buddies, Already know most of what it's going to take to do it. And his committe is cool with it. We started working on this idea two years ago. We need a few more key individuals on the technical end of it to fall into line!!!!!! Temporary Netting suppliers and experts actually....but... we are talking AO ARENA BALL....Yes. Indoor heated Arena with great steep seating for viewing. Soft surface. Two airball fields and plenty of camping area around the facility and all. Nice facility. Thats the big plan.

And of course free beer and diet Pepsi. Its tradition! :D

[cphilip]

Here ya go...

http://www.clemson.edu/garrison/images/dirtfloor.jpg

2 Acres under roof. Seats 3000. Large concorse around with vendors areas and plenty restrooms. VERY high roof as you can see....Etc....


The facility we talking about (http://www.clemson.edu/garrison/facility.htm)

[InexactMelissa]

I had a thought, but it kinda puts competition into the mix and that might kill the fun aspect a bit, but heck, it could be done with a raffle just as easily. What if all of the regional AO days held a mini-tournament (or raffle, or whatever) and at the end of the season there was a national AO day where the winners would meet up, grand prize being....tada..next season's sponsorship by AGD. Really, it could be something goofy (as in sure, Miss America's responsibilities are real tough!) so it wouldn't all have to be about winning a tournament and we could keep it fun.

[logamus]

there was talk some time ago melissa about having state ao teams compete in regional ao tournaments. these would progress to the finals at a national ao day. it never went much farther than just talk, but i wouldnt mind seeing that concept revisited. for no other reason than to wax some sorry sooners. :p

[cphilip]

...well anyway... Mel started this thread for something interesting. I am all ears! I know eventually he gonna tell us what super keen thing he has up his sleeve! :D I am all ears for anything!

[Riotz]

Muzikman, well said. Well said my friend.

NOTE: You would not be my friend if it wasn't for AO Days. As well as the tons of other ballers I've met and chill with at events. ;)



Originally posted by Ronin 23
But as a community, it behooves us to stay on the cutting edge not only to show the rest of the paintball community who we are but also create marketing opportunities for AGD.

Wrong, AO Days are constantly on the cutting edge of the industry. AO Day in Texas with Xball, is one example. What Phil did at SC last year. SoCal vs NorCal. TONS of new stuff. This year's event, there will be NO restrictions and we'll be able to do new ideas.

Get this, what's one of the oldest rivalry in paintball? Give up, Cockers VS Mags. NJ AOD 4 hosted by Black Cell will hold a "friendly" tourney with two divisions. "Division: Black Cell" mag players and then "Division: Dead Cell" cocker shooters. Yes, we have teamed up with Dead Cell to bring you an a** kicking event for this year. Most likely indoors too!




Originally posted by Ronin 23
To many outside our community, the concept of AO Days has gotten stale and corny.

The outside community hasn't even seen the AO Days yet. I don't know who you are refering to here...


Originally posted by Ronin 23
NO ONE PARTICULAR PERSON CAN OR SHOULD TAKE CREDIT for the creation of this concept.

Actually, the REAL AO'ers know that the first official AO Day in New Jersey could not have happend without the support of the old Black Cell team. Thordic, SprayingMango, spacemanspiff and johnbmx. That was a great team we had.

Man I miss those days. When paintball was FUN and not a Job.



Phil, I can't wait to attend your event this year. I won't have any restrictions on me this time. :) :D

[PissedGodzilla]

Edited out for peace of the board - cphilip

[cphilip]

Alrighty now. Lets not let this deteriorate into a pissin contest. Lets get back on track here and listen to what it is Mel had in mind. He also is asking for some ideas here. Lets not take it all personaly. There is always room to move things to another level. Lets keep an open mind. And lets all stop the flaming. Or I gonna edit this really heavily. Capish?

[Riotz]

Edited out quote and response to quote - cphilip


I understand Phil, but you can see the obvious jabs towards myself in his post. Can't you? No offense Phil, but if this was to get moderated, could we please get a mod that is not affiliated with PBX to do it?

[Wc Keep]

Hope you don't mind but leaving this comment now would be out of place WC - cphilip

[cphilip]

I am impartial. I am not affiliated with PBX. I work for AO and AGD here. And I stepped in because I see it going both ways here. But I want it kept off AO. Private bussiness dealings are not our business here. If It gets moderated it will be by me and it will be impartial. I see it from them and I also see it from you as well. I see it coming from both sides. I see underlying issues being brought up here. Thats why I am stepping in and sayings something.

[Riotz]

Phil, you wouldn't have said anything unless I posted...

[Suede]

Edited out as again it is out of place now - cphilip

[cphilip]

Actually... I let you have your post. It was within your right to do so. I though some of it was a bit harsh, but then again, I let it go. But... It was the retaliatory ones that prompted me to step in...I knew they were coming. YOU knew they were too.

[cphilip]

Ok closing to edit.

Edit done. Lets keep it clean or I gonna get mean. ;)

[PissedGodzilla]

Originally posted by cphilip
I am impartial. I am not affiliated with PBX. I work for AO and AGD here. And I stepped in because I see it going both ways here. But I want it kept off AO. Private bussiness dealings are not our business here. If It gets moderated it will be by me and it will be impartial. I see it from them and I also see it from you as well. I see it coming from both sides. I see underlying issues being brought up here. Thats why I am stepping in and sayings something.

you are right phil, I apologize... that was kinda stupid of me, I should have just kept it to myself, I only thought it was funny.... Riotz, my bad, sorry. I was just being sarcastic. To be honest I could care less about the stupid arguments, I was just having a little fun. I apologize.:(

[PsychoBaller]

Can't we all just play paintball and get along?? ohhh yah.. when $ is involved, nothing can be peaceful... unless that $ is going towards T&A... whoo hooo...

[Thordic]

I don't really see what needs to be changed. If you make them too flashy you lose the sense of community that is the whole point in the first place.

The more you add, the more you take away.

The first NJ AO Day, which had the smallest attendance (about 25 guys) was also one of the most fun. We hung out for hours after play was done, cooking up burgers, drinking beer, shootin the breeze, and firing potatos into the stratosphere. I don't see how you can improve on that.

The following AO days were bigger, and more problems just arose. Gripes about not enough games, problems with supplying air, problems with whatever.

I'm not saying the bigger AO Days arent good, it opens it up to more people. But it also increases the problems. I think right now, with a large AO day turning up around 150 people, you are at a point where if you try to take things to the next level you will lose a lot of what AO Days are all about, which is community, and friendship. In its place you pick up commericalism, flashyness, and organizing headaches.

I don't think AO should be about being flashy, being commercialized, and being hyped up. It should be about paintball. It should be about playing paintball with your friends, whether they are from England, Canada, or even Australia. It should be about feeling comfortable among people you can trust. Being able to leave your car open all day because you know the people around you will watch out for your stuff.

The more things you add into the mix, the more you force out the old things that made AO Days truly special.

AO Days shouldn't be loaded with media coverage, cheerleaders, and blimps overhead. All you need is some paint, some burgers, and some good friends.

Thats just my two cents, anyway.

[PsychoBaller]

well said Thor

[Carbon]

Thordic: I agree with ya. To me AO day is all about paintball. The vibe i get doin ao days is that it is inclusive, ao member or not, when you participate you gonna have fun. What i found during the NORCAL/SOCAL day is that paintballer, epecially AOers, overcome and adapt.

AO day in SLO made a ripple in California no doubt and as is always the case, it becomes a foundation of greater things to come. I as surprised to find out the local paper and local hip hop station was attending. For the most part it is my belief, that your average AOer realizes that paintball is bigger than what gun you shoot, what you wear, even bigger than AO itself.

Yes, undoubtedly the more you gain, the more you loose. But i can for certain know AO Days will never loose its "heart".

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by abarnhar
Really to diversify a AO day, the only feasible tact is to thematize it. Of course, then you are in quasi-senario land.

Good point and definitely well taken.

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by Muzikman
If you are thinking about changing up the event, then that is fine, and I think that TexBall is doing just that. But I think no matter how hard you try, you will not remove the party and good time aspect of the event. This is the sole reason I come to these events, as I don't think I have played at any of the AO Days or gatherings.

Keeping this component is not only a 'must'....it is a requisite.

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by cphilip
hehehe.... I have some long term plans. Already have slowly introduce just a few of them each year, starting with the first one here in Clemson and then I added a few more of them to this last one... but I am keeping them for the SE event. Each one is bigger than that last in activities and scope. Culminating in something really big in a few years. Each baby step if it works begats the next one. Each theme a bit different and more extravigant than the last. And most of them are site specific and "my" resources specific so they wouldn't really transition well to elsewhere. But big stuff planned! That's all I can say...

Phil, U DA MAN!!!!

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by cphilip
We need a few more key individuals on the technical end of it to fall into line!!!!!! Temporary Netting suppliers and experts actually....but... we are talking AO ARENA BALL....Yes. Indoor heated Arena with great steep seating for viewing. Soft surface. Two airball fields and plenty of camping area around the facility and all. Nice facility. Thats the big plan.

And of course free beer and diet Pepsi. Its tradition! :D

When you're ready, LMK. I may have a wealth of information that you may want to take advantage of.

[Beemer]

Originally posted by PissedGodzilla


you are right phil, I apologize... that was kinda stupid of me, I should have just kept it to myself, I only thought it was funny.... Riotz, my bad, sorry. I was just being sarcastic. To be honest I could care less about the stupid arguments, I was just having a little fun. I apologize.:(

Thats class


Well said Thordic

Havent made one yet but plan on it.

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by InexactMelissa
I had a thought, but it kinda puts competition into the mix and that might kill the fun aspect a bit,.... Really, it could be something goofy (as in sure, Miss America's responsibilities are real tough!) so it wouldn't all have to be about winning a tournament and we could keep it fun.

We're bound together by the love for a sport that's predicated on COMPETITION and I don't think there's anything wrong with that....but I love the 'goofy' factor.

[JEDI]

Holy self absorbed/self gratifying batman! I've never read a more politically based compilation of double meaning bull crap in my entire life. Your average thread of flaming and blatant mud slinging would have been closed hours ago. Phil, you really seem undermined here. What special interest lies within this thread? May I contribute? - "My blank is bigger than your blank"-

Thank God I'm a baller concerned with one thing, and one thing only... POOF!putting my paint where it counts. Win at all costs - Talk not the talk, but walk the walk.






Deadcell baby... my cocker owns your mag.

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by Ronin 23
There is no other owner's group community like AO...and that's a fact.

Just reiterating the obvious. :cool:


Originally posted by Ronin 23
But as a community, it behooves us to stay on the cutting edge not only to show the rest of the paintball community who we are but also create marketing opportunities for AGD.

Why do we loyally stick with a company that the paintball industry has unfairly marginalize? What other company ENGINEERS products to last and perform and support it with a level of passion not seen elsewhere in paintball? Where else in this industry can you find a company's employee willing to drive 16 hours in a snow storm just because he needed to deliver products to a customer?

AGD is a company with a payroll and costs that needs to be met even before profits can be counted. Well wishes and good intentions won't do it. Helping promote their products to those who may not know of or seen just what kind of company AGD is.....well, that's one of the purposes of this endeavor.


Originally posted by Ronin 23
To many outside our community, the concept of AO Days has gotten stale and corny. Keeping it constantly fresh and dynamic is the goal of this totally inclussionary brain-storming effort. NO ONE PARTICULAR PERSON CAN OR SHOULD TAKE CREDIT for the creation of this concept. This is purely a cooperative effort by AOers and for AOers worldwide.

I have the opportunity to meet paintballers all day everyday! From the newbie who just caught the bug to the hard-core "3-times-a-week-gotta-get-my-paintball-fix" player. Speaking to them and getting their feedback has been one of the reasons for the creation of this thread.

When we're in the AO world, we have the opportunity to see and talk to other members of the 'choir'. THE PURPOSE OF WHATEVER IT IS THAT WE CAN ALL COLLECTIVELY CREATE HERE IS NOT TO PREACH TO THE CHOIR BUT RATHER TO RECRUIT NEW MEMBERS FOR THE CHOIR. So I urge everyone to try to step out of the AO box and put yourselves in the shoes of those who aren't AO'ers.

There was no statement made in the initial start of this thread that promotes the abolishment of the things that we hold dear...friendship, comraderie, shooting someone smack-center of their goggles. HELL! Those things are a must, don't you think?

If it is indeed true that we all collectively value all that AO has accomplished on a social level, then isn't it our collective concern to see to it that the entity that binds us all, AGD, has a long and profitable existence?

Part and parcel of increasing AGD's market share is for those unaware ballers out there to truly understand and appreciate not just the quality of the products they make but also the quality of the people behind it and those who support it.

BTW, I thought the word "INCLUSSIONARY" was self-explanatory. The paragraph directly quoted above was neither intended as a jab at someone nor is it a subtle mischiveous act. How it is interpreted is entirely dependent on one's mindset.....and that I have no control over.

If I would have known that this thread would have degenerated to the level that Phil had to intercede...I WOULD HAVE ASK PROCTER AND GAMBLE IF THEY WERE INTERESTED IN SELLING SOME SOAP.:D

This thread, although light-hearted in its original nature, is meant to be a serious discussion. If you have an ax to grind, THIS THREAD IS NOT YOUR GRINDING WHEEL.

So I ask you all again....let the suggestions begin.....

[Chojin Man]

Ok well if we want the AO day's to support and promote AGD then we will have to let the general public know. Right now the only people that really know about it are the people on AO. Invite media types to the AO day. Like what was done in CA with the radio station and paper(even though the paper didn't mention AGD or AO:mad:). Mabey have an AO banner with dates on it at a field we are schedualed(sp) to play at a month or two before hand. Try to get people who may have never played paintball before, and show them what AGD has to offer.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by JEDI
Holy self absorbed/self gratifying batman! I've never read a more politically based compilation of double meaning bull crap in my entire life. Your average thread of flaming and blatant mud slinging would have been closed hours ago. Phil, you really seem undermined here. What special interest lies within this thread? May I contribute? - "My blank is bigger than your blank"-

Thank God I'm a baller concerned with one thing, and one thing only... POOF!putting my paint where it counts. Win at all costs - Talk not the talk, but walk the walk.






Deadcell baby... my cocker owns your mag.

Well I never read anything so insulting and so... incoherant in my life. I just going to let that go. Because its obviously ignorant ranting. If you are not interested in someone working his behind off to show you a good time then don't come. No skin off my arse....

[wyn1370]

Originally posted by Thordic
AO Days shouldn't be loaded with media coverage, cheerleaders, and blimps overhead. All you need is some paint, some burgers, and some good friends.
Thor you're fired, you forgot BEER. You need BEER.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Thordic
AO Days shouldn't be loaded with media coverage, cheerleaders, and blimps overhead. All you need is some paint, some burgers, and some good friends.

The fact is those things are not mutualy exclusive as you seem to conclude. You can do all that and have Media coverage, cheeleaders (I hadn't thought of this but will incorporate :D) and blimps overhead. Keeping the family atmosphere does not mean you cannot do everything. We have successfully done it. Ask anyone that came down this past fall if it can be done. You just have to pay attention to detail is all and keep control in the hands of what AOers want. If you get 200+ AOer's together you can demand more and will attract more industry people catering to you whims. YOUR in charge then not them. There are strength in numbers. Nothing wrong with that at all. As long as organizers use that to AOers advantage and are AOers then its pretty easy to keep the atmosphere. AOers make thier own atmosphere. Where ever they go. And when someone makes sure its catered to them they appreciate it. So I disagree with that assessment to some degree. I don't think smaller is always better. I don't think bigger is always better. I think well organized and without someone trying to make money off of it is better. I think over commercializing it is bad for it. But using the numbers you gather to get commercial organizations to realize they MUST be there and its in their interest to contribute to them is good. If they feel they can reach out to a large group of people its an opportunity for them. And its worth something to them to be there. And AO organizers can use that to their advantage to keep the event cheap. It makes it cheaper for everyone. And certainly good publicity is good. For all of us. One thing builds on another.

[Thordic]

I'm sorry Phil, but I disagree. I don't see how turning AO Days into a circus is good for AO at all. I think we can leave the elephants and midgets at home.

Ok, on second thought, maybe some midgets :)

[cphilip]

Well Ok. You can disagree with what I say all you want. But your disagreeing with a conclusive statement that I didn't say nor even alude too. Circus? Thats your conclusion not mine...

If you want to play that game I will conclude from you statements you want to have an AO day where you invite just your friends and not people you don't like. Making it exclusive to just your buddies. Turn about is fair play! ;)

[Riotz]

Originally posted by cphilip


The fact is those things are not mutualy exclusive as you seem to conclude. You can do all that and have Media coverage, cheeleaders (I hadn't thought of this but will incorporate :D) and blimps overhead. Keeping the family atmosphere does not mean you cannot do everything. We have successfully done it. Ask anyone that came down this past fall if it can be done. You just have to pay attention to detail is all and keep control in the hands of what AOers want. If you get 200+ AOer's together you can demand more and will attract more industry people catering to you whims. YOUR in charge then not them. There are strength in numbers. Nothing wrong with that at all. As long as organizers use that to AOers advantage and are AOers then its pretty easy to keep the atmosphere. AOers make thier own atmosphere. Where ever they go. And when someone makes sure its catered to them they appreciate it. So I disagree with that assessment to some degree. I don't think smaller is always better. I don't think bigger is always better. I think well organized and without someone trying to make money off of it is better. I think over commercializing it is bad for it. But using the numbers you gather to get commercial organizations to realize they MUST be there and its in their interest to contribute to them is good. If they feel they can reach out to a large group of people its an opportunity for them. And its worth something to them to be there. And AO organizers can use that to their advantage to keep the event cheap. It makes it cheaper for everyone. And certainly good publicity is good. For all of us. One thing builds on another.


When a company runs an event it's all about profits.

When a team or player(s) run it, it's about fun. No money lines their pockets at the end of the day.

[cphilip]

I agree. Companies don't run them. So not sure why you quoted me. Your statement is contained within my quote if you chose to read it! Here I will assist you...

You just have to pay attention to detail is all and keep control in the hands of what AOers want.....I think well organized and without someone trying to make money off of it is better. I think over commercializing it is bad for it.

No company has ever run one. Nor has any company made any money off of it that I know of. Except the hotels and restraunts and bars! And with numbers even those can give back to the event. Cut rates and all... ;)

[shartley]

Of course that does not mean that all AO Days are organized out of purely selfless motives either.

And this does not mean that when companies run events they are “lining their pockets at the end of the day” either. I would bet that after all expenses are paid, a company could very well LOSE money at the end of the day. Events are not always about instant sales or instant money… they are often about exposure, and thus can take a loss for the day or event. It is the hopes of future sales that make this worth while.

That being said, it can be a similar motive for individual people or teams as well.

I don’t think a blanket statement can be said about any of it, but must be looked at honestly and rationally for each situation. And to think those that participate in the organizing of, or sponsoring of these events are doing so for purely selfless reasons (each and every time) is a bit of a stretch to say the least.

I say, have your AO Days. Have fun. But stop the politics and “I am doing it for better reasons than you are”. At the end of the day, what matters is whether folks had a good time or not.

[cphilip]

Well here is how I veiw it. If I as an AO member organise an AO day I have certain reponsiblities to take care of. I have to make sure that people have a place to stay and play. First and foremost. And if I know 100+ are coming I have an obligation to go to those places and use that number to drive a bargain with them. I can get them better pricing with that base of people. If AOers give me 200 I can drive a better bargain. And so on. As the organizer I can, with no money out of my pocket or the members pockets drive down the price of the whole thing so more people can afford to come. Now also knowing that in the past people come not just for paintball that day but to socialize... I have an obligation to try and keep them together and give them something collective to do. So now I have to get them all someplace to all sit down and eat and party that night and entertainment. That is cost effective for them all. No matter what thier income bracket is. And so it goes. I can use that attendance number to make that cheaper but I have arrange it and I have to take a chance on it. As has been established people want to stay as a group that night. This is not speculative. Its a fact. It's as important as anything to them for the event. And as has also been established when you go to any vendor and tell him I got 100+ people, do you want to help out by giving me some free stuff to give them and maybe coming out and selling them some stuff at cost so you get exposure? They look at the number and say heck yea! If its bigger then the bigger ones say "heck yea". And so the members benefit. If I have a vendor that wants his name there he does something to get it there. He does something to drive down the cost. And so it goes. And he often does so at cost or even a loss because he wants his name out there too. And if there is some kind of media coverage even more will take a deeper cut to be there. And more celebrities will come. Its cost effective. They look at the metrics and what its going to cost them and decide. They want to expose to a large group. That then puts us in the drivers seat as far as AO now can dictate to them the terms.

And I say to you that as an organizer of the event you would be negligent NOT to do this. All in the interest of who you represent and that is AO'ers. If you do not take advantage of the numbers that AOers present to you then as an organizer you are negigent in your responsibility to them. Thats their hard earned money your spending if you don't. And they deserve your effort to get the most bang for their buck. They travel a long ways for this. A lot of them do. It's not right to not get them all you can. Thats how I approach it.

[shartley]

Originally posted by cphilip
Well here is how I veiw it. If I as an AO member organise an AO day I have certain reponsiblities to take care of. I have to make sure that people have a place to stay and play. First and foremost. And if I know 100+ are coming I have an obligation to go to those places and use that number to drive a bargain with them. I can get them better pricing with that base of people. If AOers give me 200 I can drive a better bargain. And so on. As the organizer I can, with no money out of my pocket or the members pockets drive down the price of the whole thing so more people can afford to come. Now also knowing that in the past people come not just for paintball that day but to socialize... I have an obligation to try and keep them together and give them something collective to do. So now I have to get them all someplace to all sit down and eat and party that night and entertainment. That is cost effective for them all. No matter what thier income bracket is. And so it goes. I can use that attendance number to make that cheaper but I have arrange it and I have to take a chance on it. As has been established people want to stay as a group that night. This is not speculative. Its a fact. It's as important as anything to them for the event. And as has also been established when you go to any vendor and tell him I got 100+ people, do you want to help out by giving me some free stuff to give them and maybe coming out and selling them some stuff at cost so you get exposure? They look at the number and say heck yea! If its bigger then the bigger ones say "heck yea". And so the members benefit. If I have a vendor that wants his name there he does something to get it there. He does something to drive down the cost. And so it goes. And he often does so at cost or even a loss because he wants his name out there too. And if there is some kind of media coverage even more will take a deeper cut to be there. And more celebrities will come. Its cost effective. They look at the metrics and what its going to cost them and decide. They want to expose to a large group. That then puts us in the drivers seat as far as AO now can dictate to them the terms.

And I say to you that as an organizer of the event you would be negligent NOT to do this. All in the interest of who you represent and that is AO'ers. If you do not take advantage of the numbers that AOers present to you then as an organizer you are negigent in your responsibility to them. Thats their hard earned money your spending if you don't. And they deserve your effort to get the most bang for their buck. They travel a long ways for this. A lot of them do. It's not right to not get them all you can. Thats how I approach it.
I agree.

But I will also say that small get togethers, just for the sake of doing so, are great too. Both are fantastic. But they are also horses of a different color…. Not better than the other… just different.

[Riotz]

Phil, my reply was nothing against you. I don't know why you took it that way. I agree where you said companies should not over commercialize the event; hence why the quote.

I understand fully what you do with the event and how you run it. That's the way it should be and should have been here in NJ.

Yes, if companies drive down the price of the event they should get the promo. etc etc. However, companies should NOT try to control or run the events for themselves by using the AO community and AGD to promote their own products or fields.

I agree fully with you. Read all my other posts about your AO Day. They are all positive. You are setting good examples. Well done!


Shartley is right too. AO Days shouldn't be done because of politics or to out-do someone else. Although it looks like it is going that way. But eventually it will calm down.


Keep the fun in the event. Take out all the seriousness. There are plenty of serious tournaments out there to play.


Leave the AO Family events alone.

[Riotz]

Thordic's reply is the best to explain what AO Days are and should be. AO Days bring a community together to have a great time, the AO community.

Outsiders are welcome, but it's the AO family and friends we hold these events to show appreciation of a well-run well-made paintball company and products, which is Airgun Designs.

[Riotz]

Oh ya, one more thing. As Phil said, it's about getting the players money worth by getting the best deals for them. It's thier hard earned money you are spending. If a company runs an event, there is no way to get the BEST deal. Because it will be their deal or no deal.

Where as it is now, the promoters find the best deals for themselves by approaching companies and telling them "This is what I have, what is the best you can do?". Good points again Phil.

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by shartley
Of course that does not mean that all AO Days are organized out of purely selfless motives either.

And this does not mean that when companies run events they are “lining their pockets at the end of the day” either. I would bet that after all expenses are paid, a company could very well LOSE money at the end of the day. Events are not always about instant sales or instant money… they are often about exposure, and thus can take a loss for the day or event. It is the hopes of future sales that make this worth while.

That being said, it can be a similar motive for individual people or teams as well.

I don’t think a blanket statement can be said about any of it, but must be looked at honestly and rationally for each situation. And to think those that participate in the organizing of, or sponsoring of these events are doing so for purely selfless reasons (each and every time) is a bit of a stretch to say the least.

I say, have your AO Days. Have fun. But stop the politics and “I am doing it for better reasons than you are”. At the end of the day, what matters is whether folks had a good time or not.

By golly, I think he's got it;)

Again, the first AO meet that I know of was the AGD super tour. This was in Nov of 2001, and AONJ hadn't happened yet I don't think. AGD had setup a tech class, factory tour, dinner for two nights and an evening of play. This was all free to the perticipant (except any paint after the first 500 balls). AGD forked out a lot of money to do this and I know did not make it all back that weekend. I do know that after this weekend, although I had talked to Tom before, I had already owned AGD products for 9 years, I had more respect for the company and since that day suppored AGD more than before. Just as Steelrat came back from AOCA with more respect for AGD, I did the same in 2001.

Since this time I have made it to as many AO events as I could and not once have I been disapointed.

People say that others outside of AO think that the AO day idea is stale and corny. If this is true, why is there talk to have a similar type day for the oldest paintball owners group on the net (POG - Palmers Owners Group).

[MantisMag]

i had a long commentary on the situation typed out but i realized that it would only lead to people becoming defensive. to the people who are unaware of the subtext ignorance is bliss. for the people that do see it what i have to say won't be any great revelation. so i'm going to leave it at this:

as long as AO Days remain in the hands of people like phil, whose motives are firmly rooted in bringing people together and showing them a good time and not on promoting themselves or turning a profit, then i think everything will be ok.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Thordic
AO Days shouldn't be loaded with media coverage, cheerleaders, and blimps overhead. All you need is some paint, some burgers, and some good friends.


You would turn down cheerleaders?:eek:



This thread has more edits then "Showgirls" did on VH1!:D

[Dubstar112]

How about National AO day? Where everyone gets together in thier local AO group and we all party!

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Riotz

Shartley is right too. AO Days shouldn't be done because of politics or to out-do someone else. Although it looks like it is going that way. But eventually it will calm down.

*Thump*

1stDeadeye has just fallen out of his chair! Passed out cold!

;) :p

So Riotz,
Does this mean you'll come down south and play with us at Judgement Day?:D We are still awaiting more info from Mango.

[cphilip]

OK then I see we all agree that AO days should be run by AO. Regaurdless of size...it should be AO.

But now... How do we protect that? How do we make sure we maintain control? Should we elect a committee to approve of AO days sanctioning? The use of the name and coodinate dates and such? Or should AGD dictate this and people get permission from them? I mean they do indeed own AO. But I am certain they would not really want to Nazi this part. However I should think they would want some input and maybe even veto power. Shouldn't we make is so that we know who it is organizing or something so this can be assured its AOers that are being represented? And so that other AOers know they are not being taken for a ride or something? And perhaps so we can make sure they do not get overloaded or overdone in some areas so they are coordinated and not too much overlaping? Within reason that is!!! Well within reason. No dictators!!! Just councilors and advisors with some athority to bring people together for a compromise. A people person or persons. I wouldn't want anyone denying one if it's at all possible. Just someone coordinating them so they do not wreck each other's and attendance is good is all.

Just some ideas. Since its been brought up there is a concern for control that is. Maybe we should think about how to centralize and cooperate with them now.

[Riotz]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


*Thump*

1stDeadeye has just fallen out of his chair! Passed out cold!

;) :p

So Riotz,
Does this mean you'll come down south and play with us at Judgement Day?:D We are still awaiting more info from Mango.

Yep, I already told Mango that he has the support of Black Cell and myself to attend. Not sure if all the guys are going to make it or not, but we'll see as the days get closer.

[Thordic]

Phil - There was an idea floating around a couple years ago to do something like what you are saying, sorta, but I dunno if Tom is still planning on it, so I can't really say more. I think you know what Im talking about though.

[cphilip]

I think I do. I tell ya what... Let me talk to him about this and all. And see where he is coming from on it and what his wishes are. Maybe then we come back to this and do something a little more organizational for some of this.

What we talked about a while ago was more or less small start up ones should go on any time any place. Easy enough. Anyone can do one and more power too ya.

But... there should establish that the bigger ones should be pre-determined and "regionalized" and spaced out and coordinated to assist each other. And limited to one regional big event per year in each major region. "The big one" so to speak. And not to compete with each other. In fact to assist each other. Something sort along that lines was what we had discussed right? And I still feel that is best way to do it. I think Tom might agree with that as well. Let me see how he still feels about that. And then we bring this back up. Dealio? :D

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by cphilip
But now... How do we protect that? How do we make sure we maintain control?

We could always go the Smart Parts route and patent it. Then we could sue whoever uses it. We force a settlement and use the money to buy more beer for our AO days! ;)

Should we elect a committee to approve of AO days sanctioning? The use of the name and coodinate dates and such? Or should AGD dictate this and people get permission from them? I mean they do indeed own AO.

Tough to do. You really can't have elections on a forum. Also, an appointed council may appear to cliquish for some. Maybe we do it the way we are now. Someone makes a post and we see what happens. Tom puts his stamp on whichever ones he wants to by attending them.

My $0.02..

[cphilip]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1stdeadeye

We could always go the Smart Parts route and patent it. Then we could sue whoever uses it. We force a settlement and use the money to buy more beer for our AO days! ;)

hehe.... well.... :)

Tough to do. You really can't have elections on a forum. Also, an appointed council may appear to cliquish for some. Maybe we do it the way we are now. Someone makes a post and we see what happens. Tom puts his stamp on whichever ones he wants to by attending them.

My $0.02..

Yep. Tough to do. I don't got no easy answers. There are none. But the problem is becoming real. It's perhaps something we can ignore for a while longer. Rather than deal with it before it gets more complex. But even then the solutions are not perfect. Never will be...

[Suede]

Originally posted by Riotz
When a company runs an event it's all about profits.

When a team or player(s) run it, it's about fun. No money lines their pockets at the end of the day.
The whole purpose of having a company, a business, is to make money but I think there is a big difference in how companies are run. Is the company "all about profits" or are they trying to make money without trying to squeeze every drop of blood from a person until they are as transparent as Albinonewt. :p (Sorry Newt, couldn't help myself. Joke, NOT flame.) I think in your posts the 'company' you are alluding to is PBX and Mel in particular.

FOR THE RECORD:

PBX just recently opened it's new indoor field PBX Battlezone which has received an overwhelmingly positive response from players (rec, tourney and beginners--not to mention parents) because it gives people a chance to play without having to cry to the bank or have to explain to the wife that the new gun they just purchased was actually a surprise birthday gift for her. ;) (Not to be sexist here.) Unfortunately because of some of the ongoing personal issues which should have long been buried, the thread has now been closed. :( Paint and addmission prices at the new PBX facility charges about half of what SHOOTERS & LOOTERS charged while it owned and operated the nearest competitive indoor field. For example, $50-$60 for a case of USED paint vs. $40 for a case of NEW paint at PBX.

The rental fleet that PBX (Mel) decided to go with were level 10 mag classics with nitro systems which are rented out at the same cost at Battlezone as the Tippmanns at the other field. Do these cost more than the typical Tippmann 98? Absolutely. But some companies--and PBX is one of the VERY FEW companies that use these markers as standard rentals--believe that providing quality and performance to customers are important. Did AGD help PBX with a good deal? Ordering quantity always does, as does having a good business relationship. But AGD didn't give these guns away. AGD is also a company that is in business to make money. How else can it afford to allow Jon to travel in style in that boo-koo, me-love-you-long-time-mobile? But AGD is not out to squeeze blood either. I don't think anyone on this forum would dispute the fact that AGD has always valued performance and quality over the almighty dollar.

NJAO Day 2--This was the first NJAO event that PBX sponsored. ADG does not spend the kind of advertising dollars that other companies can and do. Mel had been in discussions with Dawn and Bill Mills of WARPIG to try to get them to attend the event. Dawn and Bill have very busy schedules and attend only big national events (regional sometimes only when it is in their backyard). So Mel took it upon himself to pay to have them flown in, paid for their hotel stay as well as giving them tickets to a Broadway show. This was money out of PBX's pocket and the costs were significantly more than the price of a couple of pounds of ground beef (in addition to all of the hard work and other expenses of preparing the field for the event). Although it was held at a PBX field it was promoted as an AGD event to introduce their new product: the Level 10 Breakout Party. I think it rather ironic sometimes when Riotz quotes Bill Mills as having said something to the effect "I've never seen so may mags on a field." because he would not have even been there had PBX not funded it. This is not meant as a plug but as a fact to counter some of the charges. This can be easily verified by contacting Dawn or Bill at www.warpig.com. If you read their article you can see that although they mention PBX it was primarily described as an AGD event. Did PBX make out like bandits? NO! PBX took a loss but you know what? It was a great day and everyone had a blast. And people respected the fact that PBX WAS'T ALL ABOUT MONEY.

As far as Riotz's comment about team or player-sponsored events being fun because they do not have ulterior motives and "money doesn't line their pockets" I would have to disagree that that is not always the case. Granted a player or team is not the same thing as a retail store (although most stores and fields are owned by them) but as Riotz himself has pointed out many times in this forum, he tries as all promoters do to get the BEST PRICES and the most FREE STUFF for the players. But DISCOUNTS and FREE STUFF comes out of SOMEONE's pockets and puts them into SOMEONE ELSE'S pockets and brings just praise to the person(s) who were able to BROKER A DEAL for the players. With the exception of SPAM, who doesn't like getting things for free? As a college student I remember going to the supermarket on weekends to sample FREE new products, morsels of green pigs-wrapped-in-a-blanket and the latest latte, half-caf samples of FREE coffee. A complete and hearty breakfast on a no-frills student budget. ;) The fact that Riotz takes AO Day as his own personal property that he takes pride in and credit for while not "lining his pockets" is a bit disingenuous. How does a team or player get better sponsorships and FREE STUFF as well as respect from others? By offering to plug products, stores, fields, etc. This is not to say it is a BAD thing. Paintball is an expensive sport and we are all looking for ways to get a better price. By promoting these events (AO Days, Shatnerball, Tex-Ball, etc.) or any event by a different name, it benefits EVERYONE. It is a win-win-win situation for the manufacturers, the retail operators and the players. It is just a matter of HOW it is done.

I agree that the mighty dollar should not be the end-all of an event or a business. I only think that before anyone starts pointing fingers and making accusations while claiming NOT to benefit that people should know ALL the facts.

[Riotz]

I'm done arguing about this now. Good luck with everything you do.

Best Wishes,

Jeff

[JEDI]

:rolleyes:
So what has come of all this arguing/conversation? Whats the fresh part?

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by Riotz
I'm done arguing about this now. Good luck with everything you do.

Best Wishes,

Jeff

Although you have repeatedly not done so...I hope that after Dayspring's revelation earlier today that YOU ARE INDEED OVER THIS ISSUE.

Your "well wishes" should also be extended to all the people who's names you have dragged through the mud and not just me.

NOW this thread is meant to be a creatively productive one whose purpose is to enhance AGD's image and marketing presence outside of AO. Any productive contributions that you may have would certainly be welcomed. But if you have another agenda (PLEASE SEE THE CLOSING OF "PBX BATTLEZONE-TOMS RIVER, NJ"), I think I can speak for the majority of people in this forum that we would rather not see it.

[Dayspring]

To see if we can get back on track- I think the main thought of this thread is to not stop AO days at all. Rather, it should be to make them a bit more thought out than just "Let's get together and play paintball."

While yes, that is fun- especially down in SC or NJ, there are different ways of doing it.

Havoc & Clare's TeXball idea is a perfect example. It's an AO day, but its theme is Xball. Suede had talked about the Midnight Mag-Ness idea. Also a great theme.

It's not a matter of getting rid of what's working, it's a matter of improving on what's working.

[Creative Mayhem]

Originally posted by Thordic
I don't really see what needs to be changed. If you make them too flashy you lose the sense of community that is the whole point in the first place.

The more you add, the more you take away.

The first NJ AO Day, which had the smallest attendance (about 25 guys) was also one of the most fun. We hung out for hours after play was done, cooking up burgers, drinking beer, shootin the breeze, and firing potatos into the stratosphere. I don't see how you can improve on that.

The following AO days were bigger, and more problems just arose. Gripes about not enough games, problems with supplying air, problems with whatever.

I'm not saying the bigger AO Days arent good, it opens it up to more people. But it also increases the problems. I think right now, with a large AO day turning up around 150 people, you are at a point where if you try to take things to the next level you will lose a lot of what AO Days are all about, which is community, and friendship. In its place you pick up commericalism, flashyness, and organizing headaches.

I don't think AO should be about being flashy, being commercialized, and being hyped up. It should be about paintball. It should be about playing paintball with your friends, whether they are from England, Canada, or even Australia. It should be about feeling comfortable among people you can trust. Being able to leave your car open all day because you know the people around you will watch out for your stuff.

The more things you add into the mix, the more you force out the old things that made AO Days truly special.

AO Days shouldn't be loaded with media coverage, cheerleaders, and blimps overhead. All you need is some paint, some burgers, and some good friends.

Thats just my two cents, anyway.



HERE HERE!! I didn't read any further, this post says EXACTLY why I go to AO days. Friends, food, beer and of course a little 'balling. :D

Tradeshows and the like are nice, but are they truly a nessecity? I do think there could be a place for vendors, but keep it small, vendors dont need to overwhelm the whole day. Vendors should be AOer's offering the same quality products that they do online. Of course this is just my .02

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Creative Mayhem




HERE HERE!! I didn't read any further, this post says EXACTLY why I go to AO days. Friends, food, beer and of course a little 'balling. :D

Tradeshows and the like are nice, but are they truly a nessecity? I do think there could be a place for vendors, but keep it small, vendors dont need to overwhelm the whole day. Vendors should be AOer's offering the same quality products that they do online. Of course this is just my .02

Exactly what we did and will continue to do... Why would a vendors tent offering you a place to stop by and look or for that matter not stop by and look overwelm you? Are you so easily distracted? Maybe you should read it all? ;)

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by cphilip


Exactly what we did and will continue to do... Why would a vendors tent offering you a place to stop by and look or for that matter not stop by and look overwelm you? Are you so easily distracted? Maybe you should read it all? ;)

Actually Phil, there is a reason why the vendor's tent is more crowded than the stands during a tournament:)

[cphilip]

So you want scantily clad womenz!

Not gonna happen I don't think. Data may be a pimp but he ain't that good a pimp! :D

I would like to point out what we ARE talking about here is as many AO vendors as we can along with some that would want to help out with costs and cater to AO peeps. Not some over commercialization. Just something to do between games and give you access to the people you use thier products. No reason you cannot multi task a little if you feel like it. Ya are not required to!

[JEDI]

Originally posted by Thordic
I don't really see what needs to be changed. If you make them too flashy you lose the sense of community that is the whole point in the first place.

The more you add, the more you take away.

The first NJ AO Day, which had the smallest attendance (about 25 guys) was also one of the most fun. We hung out for hours after play was done, cooking up burgers, drinking beer, shootin the breeze, and firing potatos into the stratosphere. I don't see how you can improve on that.

The following AO days were bigger, and more problems just arose. Gripes about not enough games, problems with supplying air, problems with whatever.

I'm not saying the bigger AO Days arent good, it opens it up to more people. But it also increases the problems. I think right now, with a large AO day turning up around 150 people, you are at a point where if you try to take things to the next level you will lose a lot of what AO Days are all about, which is community, and friendship. In its place you pick up commericalism, flashyness, and organizing headaches.

I don't think AO should be about being flashy, being commercialized, and being hyped up. It should be about paintball. It should be about playing paintball with your friends, whether they are from England, Canada, or even Australia. It should be about feeling comfortable among people you can trust. Being able to leave your car open all day because you know the people around you will watch out for your stuff.

The more things you add into the mix, the more you force out the old things that made AO Days truly special.

AO Days shouldn't be loaded with media coverage, cheerleaders, and blimps overhead. All you need is some paint, some burgers, and some good friends.

Thats just my two cents, anyway.
I'm gonna reitterate Thordics opinion too. I think its a good one. He's trying to convey a feeling. Saying that improving AO days, while still keeping the same atmosphere, may be infringing on this feeling.

The idea of "same but better" in itself may be the problem.
Some people may have liked the idea of sitting in the parking lot on an empty case of paint, talking with friends. I know none of you with good ideas are disagreeing with this. I know you're intentions are good, but many of us are content with the way they're done now.
No one side has the "right" opinion, but I like the "Thordic" view on how AO days should go.

[cphilip]

And no one ever disagreed with that....

Continualy restating it does not widen the gap of thought on that. Ya just can't make an issue outa nothing.

[JEDI]

WTF? No one is making an issue. I'm just stating that there seems to be two differing ideas of what AO days are. Why is voicing an opinion taken as "making an issue"?:)

[cphilip]

Well it seems to me like its being treated as one when it isn't. The parking lots and friends and empty cases of paint and your freedom to chose your activity is always there. Seems pointless to have to keep pointing that out UNLESS someone is trying to imply that is not the case? Maybe its just me but it seems to me that someone is trying to imply that there is something exclusive being proposed?

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by cphilip
So you want scantily clad womenz!


I do, I do!

*1DE raises hand violently!*:p

[cphilip]

Are you volunteering to bring some? :D

[1stdeadeye]

No, I just want to stare at them with the rest of the AOers!;)

[Muzikman]

Phil, I think the problem is people are getting defensive because of the first post. I think an evolving AO Day is a good thing and I think each one that I have been to has it's own unique aspects. I guess it's me, but I personally do not think that the current evolution of AO Days are stale or corny. Since I have not seen any ideas from the person who started this thread, it almost worries me that AO Days will turn into, as someone put it, a circus. I think AO Days are for the AO community, I can care less about the people outside this community. Members who have friends that come a long and end up having a good time and joining AO is a great thing, and I encourage this. But I do not think an AO Day should be used as a marketing tool for AGD or any other company. In my mind, these days are for the people, by the people;)

[cphilip]

I think your right Muz. Its maybe that sets the tone wrong and then they don't really see ALL the rest of the post where thats debated. I can see that but can't seem to do anything about it. But I was indeed hopeing that people would read it all after that point. Comes off wrong both ways if you don't. ah well...

[Z-man]

Having attended several small AO Days and now organized the first major one on the California Coast in a while I thought I would share some of my thoughts,

I like what Thordic wrote as many others do but I am going to go on a limb and make an observation.

AO Days differ from state to state like marker selection does. Illinois is Mag Country and I suspect that the AO Days are very different from California AO Days (the land of Timmys, Cockers and Angels)

Realizing that, I would say that the core ideas behind an AO Day are the following:

-Automag Owners coming together
-Some paintball games

Beyond that, I think that you have a huge amount of freedom. Us NoCal guys make it a monthly habit of meeting for "min" AO Days of 5-20 people at various fields. A day like that is not much more than any day of going out to play paintball but I feel it still retains the AO Day fun. I get to see people from AO that I know and don’t know and we can play together and still have a good turnout of Mags that we can brag about and show off tot he rest of the community.

Likewise, this NorCal SoCal Day we had a few weeks back was even better IMHO. We had around 150 people from all over playing on our own field like our own community. Even better was having ADG show up to the event.

So I personally have had a taste of the small and the large scale AO Day and I feel that both retain that special AO Day feel. The question I ask is, how far is too far?

I am planning next years NorCal AO Day and I KNOW I can make it better than the first. Much of the improvements will simple be better planning on my part but I am confident that it will be larger as well.

I know that a large portion of the people who show up for the AO Day don't shoot Mags and while we give them crap for it, I know that its not the issue, its the coming together from the forum to the field.

However I look at these other non-AO Day large events and I see all types of venders coming out. Dye, Kingman, Smart Parts etc.. Is that something that people would want in an AO Day? I mean in general at any level.

Since AGD is tired into the AO Day, having them show up is totally cool, but what happens if other companies (large or small) are invited? Is that something that could destroy the "AO" part of the event and make it like any other or does it transcend that?

I think I typed too long and now its time for spell check.

[Thordic]

That kinda hits the nail on the head. "To those outside the community, the idea of AO days is stale and corny." To that, I say, who cares? AO Days arent for those outside the community. They are for those inside the community, like those lame Saturn picnics they have every year. People who drive Honda's don't go to them or care about them.

Is everyone welcome at AO Days? Sure. But should we make a point of trying to attract people outside of AO a main selling point? I don't think so. If 50 AOers show up, and everyone brings a friend, thats 50 other people. Even if only half of them end up coming over to AO to visit, thats 25 new members. And it seems like a lot higher percentage than 50% actually sign up. Closer to 75%.

The general paintball public is free to think we are stale and corny. As long as we are still having fun.

[cphilip]

Now that I agree with!

Z I don't think anyone cares if vendors are there or not. But they do represent a source of revenue and sometimes are helpfull if they are there. As long as they are there to cater to AO no one really cares. And sometimes they can offer a source of amusement and distraction and even prizes for the attendee's. So I see no negatives as long as they are there because they want to cater to AO'ers. Thats the bottom line.

I wouldn't think of inviting another marker manufacturer to one though. I might however call up a distributor and see what he was willing to offer for a chance to be there. Cheaper paint, prizes and special pricing on Hoppers and such. And of course first thing would be to make sure I invited all the AO guys that make stuff. Its more like what can you do for us? than it is what can we do for them. Thats the attitude I always take. If they think I am being concieted then fine... don't come! Thats my attitude with them. Often they want to help out. Smaller ones more often than the big ones. Although we had National at this last one. Selling paint and even raffling off a marker as well as donated a bunch of prizes for the dinner raffle. Not only they did, but many AO vendors did as well. And of course AGD. Its all in the attitude you take in it really. They all have advertising budgets for stuff to give away. Why shouldn't AOers get some of that free stuff! If they going to detract from the event then don't ask them. If they going to do something for AOers then do ask. ;)

[Muzikman]

And if it is so stale and corney to people ouside the community, why is there talk from the oldest owners group out there to have a "POG Day" :)

http://www.paintmagazine.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.pl?forum=8&thread=9615

[Suede]

Originally posted by JEDI
I'm gonna reitterate Thordics opinion too. I think its a good one. He's trying to convey a feeling. Saying that improving AO days, while still keeping the same atmosphere, may be infringing on this feeling.

The idea of "same but better" in itself may be the problem.
Some people may have liked the idea of sitting in the parking lot on an empty case of paint, talking with friends. I know none of you with good ideas are disagreeing with this. I know you're intentions are good, but many of us are content with the way they're done now.
No one side has the "right" opinion, but I like the "Thordic" view on how AO days should go.
TASTES GREAT VS. LESS FILLING

As has been reiterated by numerous people already, I don't think anyone is trying to stop AO Days or the "feeling" of community of AO Days. But AO Days, as defined by Thordic, back to the days of Country Time and Kool-Aid (depending on the part of the country you live it) and backyard BBQ's can happen any time, any weekend or once a month just on PMs alone. Getting 15-25 people together is not that difficult. And these gatherings are fun.

I disagree with the "corny and stale" part of the original post as many of you also seem stuck on this issue as well. But in the hopes of moving forward and trying to make something constructive of the actual intent of this thread, can we then compromise and agree that AO Days should be defined by those smaller, more intimate get togethers and that perhaps larger events could be called by different names, more colorful names so that we can differentiate them? It will eventually get confusing when you ask someone, "Hey were you there for AO Day 35 or was it 42?" Even the Rocky movies had to stop at #5.

As for larger events of say 100+ or 150+ people, can we discuss the possibility of trying to do something new? I don't think having an event eventually of 5,000+ AOers from around the country or around the world would be a bad thing either. Just call it something other than AO Day.

Now, does having such a large event take away from the "feeling" of community of AO? I guess some people might say that, some might argue that you will get lost in the crowd. But I think it could also be viewed another way. How VALIDATING a feeling is it when you are SURROUNDED by so many who hold the same views, interests, and come from all over the world? Thordic wrote that it doesn't matter if the AOers are from Australia or Germany and I agree 100%. But REALISTICALLY speaking, people will not fly cross country let alone across the world to attend a simple BBQ--unless, that is, it's being held at someplace like the skating rink in Rockerfeller Center in which case it would be a destination/vacation unto itself. (Here's to hoping that might happen one day.)

And, yes, I think having vendors, sponsors and paintball (or non-paintball) celebs would and should be welcome to these larger events. It would help to draw more people as well as afford the attendants with more giveaways as well as discounts. If this was not the case, then why does everyone seem to clamor for Tom K or Jon C or Clare to attend their AO Day? Their presence boosts moral but it is also a way for promoters to advertise the event by being able to say, "Guess who's coming to paintball?"

[cphilip]

Excellent summation Suede! couldn't have put it better myself. VERY nice!

Yea... I missed what everyone was so agrieved about. I just sort of skimmed right over the comment about stale and corny. Until Muzik pointed out to me how people were taking that. Problem was I read that all differently. I read it more like "I heard we need to spice it up some from some people." That's what I read into it. And I took more as "Give me some ideas as to wether you agree with that and if so what would you do?" Thats how I took it. I didn't take offense to it because I just did not read it the same way as some of you seem to. But once someone hit me over the head with it that this is what people were thinking it ment it now all comes clear. Sorry I was so slow. However I think I was reading the Authors intent a little closer to what he ment than many of you were. But well... no matter.

[Thordic]

If there were ever an AO event that large, I doubt I'd bother attending. But maybe thats just me. I'd rather avoid the circus.

[shartley]

I will admit that I like both small and large events, but for different reasons.

If I want to sit back and watch people, I like large events. But if I want to interact with people, I like small events. I would rather sit down with 5 or 6 people and have a couple good games of paintball mixed with great conversations, than rush, rush, rush, bump elbows, and see lots of people but never get a chance to really MEET them.

[cphilip]

I'd like to see the regional big ones about 200 or maybe at most 250. Thats about all I would like to deal with...

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by Suede

But REALISTICALLY speaking, people will not fly cross country let alone across the world to attend a simple BBQ--unless, that is, it's being held at someplace like the skating rink in Rockerfeller Center in which case it would be a destination/vacation unto itself. (Here's to hoping that might happen one day.)


Well...no, I couldn't make it, but I had plane tickets to the AO NOCA / SOCA meet, Hitech came to AOSC, so yes, people will travel across the country to attend an "AO DAY" :)

[Suede]

Originally posted by Thordic
If there were ever an AO event that large, I doubt I'd bother attending. But maybe thats just me. I'd rather avoid the circus.
I think cphilip as well as many others addressed the issue of a "circus." I wrote earlier that HOW an event is run-- when done by a company--really depends on the individual company. This equally applies to teams and players.

Since you seem to enjoy the circus analogy, here is my response: circuses come in all different sizes. There are the Sigfreid and Roys (sp?), the Barnum and Bailey's, the Joe's Drive-Thru circus (complete with the world's most tatooed man), and of course there have even been flea circuses.

It has been my experience that sometimes the larger ones tend to be better run because they generate more revenue, can offer more visual feast for the spectators, and because of their liquidity are better able to provide for and protect their staff and the animals in their care.

Me? I like them all.

[Blazingace]

My head hurts. Owwwww...........Can I play paintball, please?










:(

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by shartley
I will admit that I like both small and large events, but for different reasons.

If I want to sit back and watch people, I like large events. But if I want to interact with people, I like small events. I would rather sit down with 5 or 6 people and have a couple good games of paintball mixed with great conversations, than rush, rush, rush, bump elbows, and see lots of people but never get a chance to really MEET them.

Something to ponder. What if we can get both done at the same time?

[shartley]

Originally posted by Ronin 23


Something to ponder. What if we can get both done at the same time?
That would be wonderful. I am sure it is possible to get a more intimate atmosphere at a larger gathering, but honestly, you still can’t get into great conversations with all those people or get to know them like you can in smaller groups. It is a matter of simple logistics. :(

[cphilip]

From my observations you see a rather good amount of group interaction at the evening thing than you do during the play day. During the day people tend to group up around thier base of operation. And clique more with thier surrounding neighbors. But in the evening that group gets larger. And even as a croud it stays rather large interactive group. What I learned from that is that you MUST plan the activities around a central place and you MUST keep the group together for the evening for that interaction to have a chance to occur. But no matter how many people are there they are going to concentrate into groups for some of it. Thats a human nature effect. It doesn't seem to matter how many people are there. They group up anyway at times. Just more groups. But when the event is organized to have a central activity then they readily come and form a group and enjoy that part as much as the play during the day. So the events AFTER the day of play are as key to the events success as the days play in group interaction.

[Thordic]

Originally posted by Suede
But REALISTICALLY speaking, people will not fly cross country let alone across the world to attend a simple BBQ--unless, that is, it's being held at someplace like the skating rink in Rockerfeller Center in which case it would be a destination/vacation unto itself.

Well, realistically, we had someone travel almost 30 hours by bus and car simply to attend NJ AO 3. TNS lives up in northern Ontario and it took him 29 hours to get to NJ on thursday/friday, he hung out friday night, played ball on saturday, hung out saturday night, and then it took him 27 hours to get home on sunday/monday.

FunkMunky and Potatoboy drove in front Detroit, which is a 9 hour drive.

Phil and Fatman drove up from SC for NJ AO 2, a 13 hour drive.

We've had groups drive from NJ to the SC meets on both occasions.

My point being, AO Days as they are now, people WILL travel long distances to attend. AO'er are dedicated to the events and willing to travel to attend them, even without lots of hype and flair and whatnot.

We had someone at NJAO from Australia, but he didn't come in just for the event he happened to be vacationing here at the time so I won't count him.

[cphilip]

Thord is right! They travel far and wide.

This past SE AO day we had Manike come in from England. Although he was coming over anyway he left in time to stop over for the 2 days and he chose to come into Atlanta rather than into New York where he was to end up so he could make it. Load drove all the way back to Atlanta to get him.

We had some from Canada, California, Michigan, Texas, Pittsburg Penn, Chicago, New Jersey, New York, Florida, Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia (and I might have forgotten a few states even) and of course our own SC residents as well.

They will travel to these larger events from far and wide. Not in huge numbers but they do.... NJ guys travel best and in sort of packs... :D

[shartley]

Okay…. So folks will travel…. Now I am making an announcement!!!!

AO Day NOW AT MY PLACE!!!! It is the AO Snow Removal Day!!!!! :D:D:D

(Seriously though, having snow dumped on you in the middle of the night can sure mess up your work schedule… I am now just taking a break. Grrrrrr Got a couple hours left to clear.)

But back on topic…. Yes, some folks are willing to travel great distances……. BUT I would say that is not the norm for AO Members. I believe most of us would only attend if it was within what we consider reasonable driving distances. And then you have scheduling issues.

So, the best way to solve those problems is to have AO days often, and all over! There, problem solved….. ;)

[cphilip]

Originally posted by shartley
But back on topic…. Yes, some folks are willing to travel great distances……. BUT I would say that is not the norm for AO Members. I believe most of us would only attend if it was within what we consider reasonable driving distances. And then you have scheduling issues.

So, the best way to solve those problems is to have AO days often, and all over! There, problem solved….. ;)

Get out the snow blower Sam! Enjoy! :D

Yep. The far travelers do not make up the entire lot. Perhaps 20% or so come from what you might consider far away. I think anything over 8 hours drive would meet that criteria. And they do so if it fits thier schedule.

And again... yep! Plenty of them shoudl happen! Because sometimes the large regional is out of someones reach or time constraints or even monetary constraints. So they need something local for them. So do em as they are the heart and soul of it all. So its possible for all to go to one and meet AOers. However the few larger ones, which I will call "Regionals" are were we can get the most diverse Celebs there. Because they cannot afford to go to all the little ones and I think thats obvious. Its like an opportunity for you to meet with them if you can but brought into an area that is reasonable driving distance once a year. So if you can then its available for you. So really you kind of need both. The smaller regular ones and a large regional one somewhat near you so you can visit with AGD and all. If you chose to and can.

[shartley]

Originally posted by cphilip


Get out the snow blower Sam! Enjoy! :D
LOL I DID get it out. I am now done with the largest parts. I got done quicker than I thought I would.

The cleanup around some edges and a couple paths will be left for Jay when he gets home from school! :D I would not want to deprive him of that. ;)