Apache's are shipping!

[GT]

http://www.ricochet2k.com/News.htm

[magman007]

wtf is the apache??

[lord1234]

bought one.

[yeahthatsme]

its a force-fed ricochet...

[magman007]

cool, although, it looks mighty tall.. i cant wait to see how these turn out. If they make em a little less tall, in any way, then id prolly get one. im really holding out to see the reviews of the new vl system

[FalconGuy016]

I remember reading the previews on warpig about them, it seems like it might be a hit :) if what they say is true

[sneakyhacker420]

i may pick up a green one once they're available in colors

hopefully they make them in translucent green like the 2k's rather than the opaque green on the AK's

[Rather]

Hmm, finnaly came out, eh? I think I remember putting up a post about this when it was first on warpig....Speaking of which....Edwierd never lookied into it for us. :p

Oh well.

[sneakyhacker420]

heres some info on the apache if you don't know yet:

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/loaders/apache/index.shtml

[sneakyhacker420]

Originally posted by lord1234
bought one. as soon as you get it, send me a pic of it on your x-mag... i really want to get one for my X as long as its not 6 feet tall on the gun

if you could do that, that would be awesome! :)

[billmi]

Originally posted by sneakyhacker420
i really want to get one for my X as long as its not 6 feet tall on the gun

How does a Ricochet 2K look on your gun. That's how the Apache will look.

From a distance, they look nearly identical. They have the same overall shape and size.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[fire1811]

bill where you impressed with it?
any negatives?

its good to see that they lowered there price from what was originally stated.

[personman]

Originally posted by yeahthatsme
its a force-fed ricochet...

WRONG! Read before you speak.
The Ricochet Apache is a gravity feed (motorized) loader that is planned to do like 17-19 bps. I want one, but who needs it with a warp feed? :p

[Ov3rmind]

It looks lighter and thinner than an Egg or a Halo, I might just pick one up.

[fire1811]

i will also probably pick one up i loved my first rico



could the people who bought the Apache's please give us a review when you get it in. I am very interested in how it performs

[sneakyhacker420]

temptation was too great... i'm ordering one tomorrow :D

[SpecialBlend2786]

nice! but i'm gonna wait for a review before i buy one. my AK still hasn't let me down anyway...

[sneakyhacker420]

just ordered a smoke apache after school today, i'll reveiw it on friday or saturday when i play :cool:

[logamus]

holy hell that place is really proud to sell ricos. i think i will wait to pick up a used one.

[dinger]

i dont want one

id rather have a TSA...

[sneakyhacker420]

you'd rather feed 14bps with a TSA instead of 18 with an Apache?

[dinger]

Originally posted by sneakyhacker420
you'd rather feed 14bps with a TSA instead of 18 with an Apache?
15bps ;)

i musta missed the part somewhere that apaches are 18bps... http://www.genmay.com/images/smilies/allnighte.gif

since those are 90$ now id REALLY, REALLY rather have an egg :o

[sneakyhacker420]

Originally posted by dinger

15bps ;)

i musta missed the part somewhere that apaches are 18bps... http://www.genmay.com/images/smilies/allnighte.gif

since those are 90$ now id REALLY, REALLY rather have an egg :o the 18bps is on the warpig reveiw of the prototype Apache

and the apache is factory rated to 18-19bps :p


and an egg... you'd rather have something made of crappy plastic, has the worst lid ever, a neck that you have to sand, a battery door that breaks... and when it stops working... BE refuses to fix it/replace it?

Ricochet Deveopement, Inc. has better customer service than AGD for the love of god

before the o-ring shells, they would replace your rico shells simply if you oversanded your feedneck! :eek:

and when my rico motor burnt out, i emailed rico customer service, and they had a new one in the mail for me the next morning... i didnt even have to send my burnt motor back for them to inspect it :eek:


ps: the o-ring rico shells are the greatest invention EVER - no sanding... just a switch of o-rings

[kenndogg]

I would get one but damn those things are ugly.

[jtoothman25]

I emailed that company about my Ricochet AK once... I simply said that I wish to order the new version shells with the Orings, and all I got was a reply saying, "whats your address?" Two days later, I got my shells free. With about 15 orings free. I will never forget that. Would BE do that? NO. My lid broke on my Egg, and they said I have to pay for it. Sure its only 5 bucks, but its their fault in poor engineering. I will buy one of the new Ricochets because of their service to me.

[sneakyhacker420]

Originally posted by jtoothman25
I emailed that company about my Ricochet AK once... I simply said that I wish to order the new version shells with the Orings, and all I got was a reply saying, "whats your address?" Two days later, I got my shells free. With about 15 orings free. I will never forget that. Would BE do that? NO. My lid broke on my Egg, and they said I have to pay for it. Sure its only 5 bucks, but its their fault in poor engineering. I will buy one of the new Ricochets because of their service to me. exactly... sure its $90, but that $90 will provide you with not only a loader, but infinite parts for that loader with wonderful service

[fire1811]

Originally posted by jtoothman25
I emailed that company about my Ricochet AK once... I simply said that I wish to order the new version shells with the Orings, and all I got was a reply saying, "whats your address?" Two days later, I got my shells free. With about 15 orings free. I will never forget that. Would BE do that? NO. My lid broke on my Egg, and they said I have to pay for it. Sure its only 5 bucks, but its their fault in poor engineering. I will buy one of the new Ricochets because of their service to me.

that is exactly the same thing that happend to me

great people them rico makers

[sneakyhacker420]

on-gun profile
http://www.fragtek.com/sneaky/apache1.JPG

LCD screen w/ game timer
http://www.fragtek.com/sneaky/apache2.JPG

new propellor - different from prototype (that warpig had) - flexible like an evo2's propellor
http://www.fragtek.com/sneaky/apache3.JPG



i tested it out with some Draxxus Blaze and it emptied a completely full hopper (with pressure on paint) in 10 seconds... with some half-arsed batteries that the LCD was reading 'low battery' with

it also has a new spring loaded lid instead of the plain old flip top ones w/o the spring to keep it open



definitely has my approval :Dhttp://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif - was worth every cent of the $90 that i paid for it

i'll reveiw it after in-game testing tonight and saturday night, you'll get a reveiw on sunday

[fire1811]

awesome thanks
i have been waiting for this review
let me know how it works tonight

[SlartyBartFast]

From WARPIG:
"The Apache is not however, a force feed loader, it is still an agitating design. "

And 18-19 bps?!? How?

The WARPIG hopper test (http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/loaders/lineup/index.shtml) conclusively showed that anything relying on gravity tops out at 13bps and is really only reliable to 11.5bps.

Or is Apache going to borrow the WAS marketing claim of on-chip AI and being able to 'bounce' the paint with the paddles?

I don't know which is more pathetic. None of the regular paintball information sites testing ALL hoppers the same way, none of the manufacturers showing the same type of test (HALO could disprove everyone), or the fact paintballs are so quick to swallow any hype fed to them (manufacturers impossible claims of 18-19bps) and even invent some themselves (thinking this new hopper is force fed) to justify their rush to incinerate their cash as quickly as possible.
:rolleyes:

Agitating hoppers (original revy) were proven by WARPIG to be WORSE than a tube feed. All the software and fancy hype just barely allow them to OCCASIONALY go faster than a tube feed (the occasional 13 bps compared to reliable 11.5 bps).

[fire1811]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
From WARPIG:
"The Apache is not however, a force feed loader, it is still an agitating design. "

And 18-19 bps?!? How?

The WARPIG hopper test (http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/loaders/lineup/index.shtml) conclusively showed that anything relying on gravity tops out at 13bps and is really only reliable to 11.5bps.

Or is Apache going to borrow the WAS marketing claim of on-chip AI and being able to 'bounce' the paint with the paddles?

I don't know which is more pathetic. None of the regular paintball information sites testing ALL hoppers the same way, none of the manufacturers showing the same type of test (HALO could disprove everyone), or the fact paintballs are so quick to swallow any hype fed to them (manufacturers impossible claims of 18-19bps) and even invent some themselves (thinking this new hopper is force fed) to justify their rush to incinerate their cash as quickly as possible.
:rolleyes:

Agitating hoppers (original revy) were proven by WARPIG to be WORSE than a tube feed. All the software and fancy hype just barely allow them to OCCASIONALY go faster than a tube feed (the occasional 13 bps compared to reliable 11.5 bps).

so you have used and tested it??

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by fire1811
so you have used and tested it??

Don't need to. Physics and the proof of previous testing shows the claims are garbage.

The absolute best any gravity feed agitating hopper can do is 11.5 bps reliably and occasionally 13.5bps with jams, burps, or chops.:rolleyes:

About the only great advantage this new hopper might have is it may be able to feed more reliably from completely full (as noted in the WARPIG article).

Even the WARPIG hopper test is far from extensive and could do with more data. For instance it would be interesting to see the results of hoppers being emptied from various capacities and continuous rate of fire. Then the performance could be better compared between them all. But I figure it wouldn't really be worth it because the results are fairly easy to guess.

Full, some will jam and feed unreliably at any speed.
Midfill, all except the HALO will just keep up with or barely surpass a tube feed. Some may even have trouble keeping up with the tube feed.
Empty, all except the halo will have difficulty keeping up with a tube feed.

Add a Warp to any hopper and get bursts upto 16.6bps (or more if you modify it).

[Fixion]

Among other things I just installed Apache 1.3.29 on a new server.

[Python14]

Finally, I faster Rico. I have been wanting a faster rico for ages because I hate the look of Eggys, Revys, and Halos.

[barrel break]

Originally posted by yeahthatsme
its a force-fed ricochet...
um, no, its still an agitation fed loader

[fire1811]

Originally posted by barrel break

um, no, its still an agitation fed loader

yes that has been said 3 times now

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Python14
Finally, I faster Rico. I have been wanting a faster rico for ages because I hate the look of Eggys, Revys, and Halos.

What could possibly make anyone think this will feed faster?

The only thing it's guarenteed to do faster is part you from your cash.:rolleyes:

[Mossman]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


What could possibly make anyone think this will feed faster?

The only thing it's guarenteed to do faster is part you from your cash.:rolleyes:

slarty, are you being serious? The eggo2 isn't "force fed" because it isn't putting constant pressure on the balls, but it does sort out 6 balls and can deliver them all in 1 full turn of the impellar. The impellar does not take half a second to spin once.

Have you ever used an eggo2? I'm not saying it's the fastest thing under the sun, but they do feed 15-16bps and it is faster than gravity.

Sneaky hacker dumped the whole hopper worth in 10 seconds he said, does the hopper hold less than 130 balls? I doubt it.

Just step off this issue, it's not the end of the world.

It's OBVIOUS to me why this would feed faster. The apache doesn't merely bat balls around so they have a better chance of falling into a hole, it pushes balls down the hole. Simple.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Mossman
It's OBVIOUS to me why this would feed faster. The apache doesn't merely bat balls around so they have a better chance of falling into a hole, it pushes balls down the hole. Simple.

That's not obvious from the pics on WARPIG. It's just an agitating hopper with a catch cup at the bottom.

The only obvious advantage IMO of the design is that it might be less likely to jam when the loader is full.

As for the egg, well I'd like to see it perform in the WARPIG test. People made all kinds of claims about Turborevs. Reality is that if it depends on gravity for the drop into the bore, it's only your imagination that your feeding faster.

[FutureMagOwner]

hmmm to me it look almost exactly the same in how it feeds as the egg does except the egg does it at an angle but the rico drops straight down.

[sneakyhacker420]

since this argument is on going... i just thought that i'd add my reveiw of the Apache after two days of testing


its significantly lighter than an eggo, and especially a HALO, the shells refuse to break - i dropped it on the ground in the deadbox - the same deadbox where i cracked the neck off of my POS BE revvy :rolleyes:

i had it on my x-mag for the mostpart, with my friend borrowing it for his shortblock

i was never able to outshoot the Apache no matter how hard i ripped - and trust me, i can EASILY hit some nice 19-20bps strings in the chrono range, apache had no problem keeping up

and overally, through the weekend, i saw no slowing of feeding because of batteries that wore out, which i'll usually see in a revvy, halo, or eggy

a few people thought it was funny that i had a rico on my gun, until i pointed out the apache logo on the side and the new paddle design - i convinced a couple people that it might be a good switch from their current loader







and all about the gravity stuff and warpig's tests - that specifies that an UNORGANIZED jumble of paintballs in a loader cannot drop faster than 13 bps or whatever - in a complete stacked tube of 100 balls - like a long arse 10-round tube, it was TESTED, RE-TESTED, and PROVEN that an ORGANIZED stack of balls can fall in excess of 56 BPS

revvy's and normal ricos, along with TSA's and the similar simply adgitate the balls to keep the flow partially continious, but does nothing towards the designation of organizing the balls before they enter the feedneck

the Evo II's and Apache's use a catch cup or line up a series of balls - or what would be called organizing balls, and the paddle pushes them into the feedneck

having the catch cup of pre-organized balls gives a larger reserve of balls that can feed at a higher rate

its basically when you're looking for your closet for something

pretend that the feedneck is the designated item, and the paintball is you rummaging through your closet

if all the shelves were organized in your closet, it would be easy to find what you're looking for, but flip-flop that, and say that your closet was a complete mess - in that case, you'd have a harder time finding what you needed

thats basically how it works

when the balls are organized, they can 'find' the feeneck faster and simply drop through, instead of being in a jumble and fighting for which one is gonna fall down the feedneck first

apply that for once, sure the closet thing may be cheezy, but it explains one large factor in this argument - that you're wrong :o

[FragTek]

Get a Z'd Egg :) Sneaky is a boner... rofl.

[sneakyhacker420]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


That's not obvious from the pics on WARPIG. It's just an agitating hopper with a catch cup at the bottom.

The only obvious advantage IMO of the design is that it might be less likely to jam when the loader is full.
i just noticed this post from you... if you saw my damned pictures with the new production propellor, you'd see that its not as flexible as a standard rico propellor, and is able to put more pressure on the balls, but still flex, and as i said before, it doesn't adgitate, it organizes

and as far as jamming goes, i crammed paint in there like i would with a pod - let a few extra balls stay on top and cram them in - had no problem feeding... it didnt even have to 'unjam' it simply fed as it was supposed to, once again because it organizes the balls at the bottom, instead of just pushing them around

[The Deacon]

Sneaky, what are the dimensions on that bad boy? Top to the bottom of the feedneck, length and width, please.

I've been using ricos for a year now and loving them, but they're too slow and my egg2 keeps pissing me off. I just don't want a even bigger blimp hanging off of my gun. ;)

Also, how many balls can you cram in there, and then how fast does it dump 'em on fresh batteries? That'll clear up all the bps arguments. Thanks in advance.

[sneakyhacker420]

7" tall from bottom of feedneck to the highest point on the lid

and

10 1/4" long from side of LCD screen to the tip

and

~4" the widest point


as far as ball capacity and the feed rate, i'll do that on my lunch break around 1 or 2 today

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by sneakyhacker420
and all about the gravity stuff and warpig's tests - that specifies that an UNORGANIZED jumble of paintballs in a loader cannot drop faster than 13 bps or whatever - in a complete stacked tube of 100 balls - like a long arse 10-round tube, it was TESTED, RE-TESTED, and PROVEN that an ORGANIZED stack of balls can fall in excess of 56 BPS


Where did you get this "proof"? WARPIG says nothing about 56bps.

The only way a tube is going to get 56bps is if it's just emptying itself. Fed one by one, you'll never get better than 11.5bps.

[Mossman]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast



Where did you get this "proof"? WARPIG says nothing about 56bps.

The only way a tube is going to get 56bps is if it's just emptying itself. Fed one by one, you'll never get better than 11.5bps.

slarty what is the fastest you think any hopper (other than the halo or Q loader) can feed?

Just gimme a # and i'll grab a video camera, my eggo and ebladed freeflow and prove you wrong

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Mossman
slarty what is the fastest you think any hopper (other than the halo or Q loader) can feed?

Just gimme a # and i'll grab a video camera, my eggo and ebladed freeflow and prove you wrong

Don't see why I'd have to give you a number. If you can prove it, go ahead. SO far the only vidoe that's been clear shooting paint is the various HALO demonstrations with automatic Automags.

Other than that, the WARPIG numbers are the only tested numbers.

Why is it people get so irritated when you challenge claims and ask for proof?:rolleyes:

My manhood doesn't depend on this, and I'll happily admit I'm wrong. IF you can point me to some proof. I have submitted the WARPIG hopper comparison test as a benchmark. No one has challenged the method used or the numbers produced. If you want to, go ahead. But you better be prepared to have provable backing to show how WARPIG is wrong.

WARPIG proves a stacked tube will feed a paintball marker consistently at 11.5 bps. It has been claimed here that the rediculous number of 56 bps can be acheived. Seems people are pretty worked up about their beliefs if a simple request for proof or backing generates such vehemence.:rolleyes:

As a side note, I guess the 56 bps is from the completely pointless exercise of allowing the tube to empty. The same tests with HALOs, Q-loaders, and others are also virtually worthless. It proves that the loader can feed smoothly without jamming but nothing more. It does not indicate how fast the loader will feed a marker. The reason is that a marker causes the ball stack to stop and start. Allowing a loader to empty does not require the loader to overcome the inertial of the stopped balls for each shot. This is particularily exacerbated in stacked tubes or the Qloader. The HALO also exhibits this behaviour but not necessarily to the same extent as not all the balls in the hopper are under force, only those in contact with the feed wheel. As all the balls are under constant force (gravity for the tube, a spring for the Q-loader) they are continuously accelerating. The exit speed of the last ball is MUCH greater than the exit speed of the first. In real life use on a marker, the only speed that is important is the speed of the first ball. As, after the first ball is loaded and fired, the next ball will start from rest to load the marker.

[Mossman]

So if i shot 13 balls a second with a marker with an eggo2 on top, that'd be disproving your claim?

[FragTek]

All I know or care to add to this conversation is that when I had my Z boarded Eggy I could rip my lcd trix at 23bps w/o it skipping a ball.

That should be proof enough.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Mossman
So if i shot 13 balls a second with a marker with an eggo2 on top, that'd be disproving your claim?

If you can document it, sure.

But you wouldn't be disproving my claim. You'd be proving yours.;)

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by FragTek
All I know or care to add to this conversation is that when I had my Z boarded Eggy I could rip my lcd trix at 23bps w/o it skipping a ball.

That should be proof enough.

Sorry, but I have no reason to believe you.

If we were to beleive people's word in paintball, we'd all beleive that spiral porting in barrels caused paintballs to spin. Wouldn't we.:p

[FragTek]

Wow, some people really are blind to the truth... Everyone raise your hand if you think your egg only feeds 11.5bps.

/me does not raise his hand.

Mossman, shoot that video so we can shut this fool up.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by FragTek
Wow, some people really are blind to the truth... Everyone raise your hand if you think your egg only feeds 11.5bps.

/me does not raise his hand.

Mossman, shoot that video so we can shut this fool up.

I'm a fool because I don't beleive the hype from a manufacturer or a bunch of paintballers that don't have a clue what BPS they're REALLY shooting?

I remember in similar threads people making the same claims for Revys with WAS boards.

WARPIG proved them wrong. Unless (once again) you can show how the WARPIG testing is flawed or why Bill Mills shouldn't be trusted. The only complaint I have against WARPIG is that they don't test all hoppers the same way. But I bet the hopper manufacturers wouldn't like it if they did.

People STILL claim they're firing 16+ bps with revys. So how?

I'd rather be a fool refusing to blindly follow hype than be a fool who spent a load of cash on something I just blindly accepted the manufacturers claims for.

999.9999 time out of a hundred, when a paintballer is talking about BPS, the "P" is silent. :D)

[FragTek]

A claim of 16+ on a revvy is definately a bogus statement.

A revvy is a true gravity drop feed system. In a scenario such as the Egg or Apache the balls are propelled at a faster rate than gravity would usually pull them once the initially lined up ball stack has been depleted.

That is where the technology of the recessed tray comes into play where the balls are sorted and then shot down the raceways hole (using an Egg as an example, can't speak on the Apache's behalf) by force of the impeller in an orderly fashion.

These feed rates just are not capable in a setup like the Revvy's. Each ball has to fight to get to the feed hole by aid of an agitation device. This is definately not a high feed rate design by any means.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by FragTek
In a scenario such as the Egg or Apache the balls are propelled at a faster rate than gravity would usually pull them once the initially lined up ball stack has been depleted.

Which makes sense only if the hopper is emptying to air. If it's feeding a marker the limiting factor is the gravity feed ball stack.

Unless there is pressure being applied to the ball stack, when the bolt comes back and the breech opens, the only thing that moves the ball into the breech is gravity.

Now, the egg may indeed give some force to the balls. As it is holding the balls and spinning them. But the Apache is just four tines.

[FragTek]

Under very high rates of fire the ball never meets the top of the bolt and thus emulates as if the balls were being dropped to air and not into a breech. At the top of the hoppers fastest feed rate when the guns speed matches that rate it's basically a constant flow of paintballs with no stops all the way from the hopper and out the barrel of the gun.

However with the Z-Board there is a bit more pressure put behind the balls at all times, even when the guns firing rate is less than the maximum feed rate of the hopper. When I installed the Z board into my Egg that's when it really seemed to unlock the potential of the hopper as it seems to be "smart". It auto-adjusts the speed of the impeller and what have you. The technology behind it I am still a bit uncertain of, but it gets the job done very well and very quickly.

Edit: Again I can't really relate to the Apache because I haven't used one, but the design doesnt seem to be executed NEARLY as nicely as the Evo's system. I believe that the Egg's raceway system really helps the balls get to it's final destination faster.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by FragTek
I believe that the Egg's raceway system really helps the balls get to it's final destination faster.

For a quick look I'd agree. And indeed your explaination of the Egg holds some merit. It's certainly more logical than the excrement WAS gave about AI and 'slapping' the balls down the tube.

However, I still proclaim: "Give me proof!"

Anyone with an electro-cocker capable of automatic fire could copy the WARPIG test. Just remove the barrel, disconnect the cocking rod, and fire full auto.

It's the easiness of the test that makes me claim 'shenanigans' when the manufacturers make claims without backing them up.

[FragTek]

I'm hoping that Mossman will shoot a quick vid...

My cam doesn't record sound w/ vids and I don't have my egg anymore :( Plus my cocker is frameless right now.

I have a few *minor* setbacks, rofl.

[Mossman]

I've got a camera more than capable of doing it, and I believe I can hook up an external mic to get better sound. The only setback is air, I usually get my scuba filled at a dive place but I think the ocean is frozen over :) I can definately get it done in a week, I got practice next sunday and can get air then.

soon...soon :)

[FutureMagOwner]

i could try on my timmy but i dont know how to compress the video or anything like that and i dont really wanna undo my warpfeed adapter to put an egg on it to shoot the massive 30 balls or so that i have.