General mag newb help plz!

[cjpaintball]

Hey. After totally ignoring mags, I looked up how they worked and am interested. I'm a big fan of mechanical simplicity, because it almost always translates to better all-around performance and reliability. This is why I always bash cockers, LOL . But the mag is definatly the most simple deisgn I've seen!

So I have a few general mag questions. First of all, considering the great mechanical simplicity, why is it that mags get bad efficiency? I hear around 1000 off a 68/45. I know that Vikings get 1800+ off the same tank. Considering the technical nature of the mag community, I'm that people have found out the reason- what is it? Are there plans to fix it?

Secondly, what are some good stores for mag stuff? Like I can go to pbgear.com and they carry a lot of stuff, but I dont know if they're carrying everything or if they have the best prices. For example, shootpaint.com carrys most everything for bushys at the best prices and EPBO carries pretty much everything for impulses at the best prices- is there a store like that for mags?

Also, what are the best electro-trigger frames for mags? Will they all fit on every mag? What is the best place to buy them? Are there any really good ones that will let you get 20+bps speeds?

Besides looks, are there any advantages to getting an xmag over building a ULE mag from the ground up with a good electro frame? I know it might not get to use the "battery-failure, mechanical backup" features that the E and X-mag tout, but I really dont care. Modern electronics are reliable enough for me.

Finally, what regulator do people use? My favorite is the sidewinder, but it really doesnt work well with INPUT pressure over 500psi, much less a 800psi output like the mag requires... seriously, this issue is pretty big. HP preset tanks output at 850psi, which I guess is hardly even enough. I know that operating pressure has nothing to do with how "rough" the gun is on paint, but I also know that all the best (most consistant and fastest recharging) regulators are designed for lower pressures.... what do people use as far as regs and tanks?

Thanks for the help, I know its a lot of questions.

[Z-man]

Welcome to AO! I’ll answer what I can regarding your questions and feel free to ask more, that is what this place is for

Efficiency- the 1000 rounds off a 68/45 is a little low but you have the basic idea. On my MaxFlow 88/45 I can get up to 1600 rounds off a tank. Why is this? I cannot tell you to an extent that I think I know it well enough. I do know that the lvl10 bolt system drops efficiency a small amount as a tradeoff for the chop free system. Someone perhaps can elaborate on why the Mag is so middle of the road in air consumption.

Places to Buy Stuff PBGear.com does have a selection of Mag stuff but what I notice is that most of the cutting edge accessories and great parts are found here on the forum and on AGD’s online store (just click one of the banner ads).

People like Nicaad who makes different milled bodies for the Mag line. DataPimp who makes nice drops for tanks. RogueFactor who makes a complete line of ULE parts and services to make your Mag UBER light. Tunaman who can build you a complete mag just the way you want it and offers quality work across the board. There are others and that is half the fun of watching the forums for new stuff to pop up.

The other thing about the Mag community here on AO is that the company itself is on here actively talking to us and asking what we want out of the Mag.. Tom Kaye (president) can be found at all hours of the day along with the majority of the tech’s, software writers and other high profile figures. It’s quite unique to be able to read exactly what AGD plans to do or is thinking of doing right from the horses mouth.

Electronic Frames- Just in case you have some confusion over the issue, the electronic frames that the EMags and XMags use is more than just a screw on frame and is not something that you can really upgrade your mag to have. Also AGD as a company will not honor most of the after market grip frames made. However if you want to look into one you should look for “Hyper Frames”

As far as speed is concerned. All the RT/X valved mags are capable of shooting faster than any of the loading systems. If you want to do a bit of reading you can ream about the bounce on the mechanical RT on my rapid-fire post

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105646

Also as a little fun thing to see what the mechanical Mag can do you can check out my little videos.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98059

XMag vs ULE Mag This again is tied into the grip frame idea. You either go with that Hyper frame that as I understands voids your warranty or you get AGD’s electronic marker like the EMag or X. You really cannot get the AGD frame and build a Mag onto it.

Regulator Typically you dont want to run another regulator on your Mag. The valving of the Mag is itself a regular. So looking at a basic setup you have your tank reg that takes the pressure down to somewhere around 7-850psi and then you have the Mag’s reg that takes care of the rest. What people have found is that when you run a 3rd reg inline you start getting shoot down because you have so many regulators slowing the air flow down.

My rapid-fire thread addresses this input pressure issue as well but tanks are a pretty big factor as well. Ideally you would want an adjustable high flow tank setup on your Mag. Smart Part’s MaxFlow is a very well made system as well as the new Air America regulator that is in Europe. AGD’s 4500 FlatLine system is also highly rated. The best way to find out is to test several of the tanks you might like to see how they perform.

OK Ill stop for now. Hope this helps

[trevorjk]

zman is the man!!! nice post ... if you need anymore help please ask and welcome to AO


only question i have for you... when you say xmag vs ule mag... do you mean the full ule'd mech mag or the full ule'd emag?

[cjpaintball]

thanks a lot z-man!


Electronic Frames- Just in case you have some confusion over the issue, the electronic frames that the EMags and XMags use is more than just a screw on frame and is not something that you can really upgrade your mag to have. Also AGD as a company will not honor most of the after market grip frames made. However if you want to look into one you should look for “Hyper Frames”

Yes, I was talking about hyperframes and I thought that there might be more of similar products. I hear that they work well. I wonder why they void the AGD warranty? I mean, they are pretty much the same thing as an e-frame for a cocker... and if you can live without the full integration of all the mechanics like in an E/X-mag than I'd think that they'd be the perfect cost/performance choice.


XMag vs ULE Mag This again is tied into the grip frame idea. You either go with that Hyper frame that as I understands voids your warranty or you get AGD’s electronic marker like the EMag or X. You really cannot get the AGD frame and build a Mag onto it.

Yeah, I was basically talking about the differance between an X-mag and a hyperframed ULE mag. I guess I wrongly assumed that a lot of mag owners would have had their guns "electro framed" like cocker users have. I guess people who felt like they wanted that service just bought an E or X mag... lol I'm too cheap.


Regulator Typically you dont want to run another regulator on your Mag. The valving of the Mag is itself a regular. So looking at a basic setup you have your tank reg that takes the pressure down to somewhere around 7-850psi and then you have the Mag’s reg that takes care of the rest. What people have found is that when you run a 3rd reg inline you start getting shoot down because you have so many regulators slowing the air flow down.

I should have clarified- I read "triple regging a mg" is bad a lot on forums because everybody asks "where can I put a vertical reg?" Anyway, what I meant was "for people who buy hp preset tanks, what female or inline reg do they typically use in order to get the best consistancy and recharge rate with the high pressures required for mags?" Basically, I would be as cheap as possible and instead of spending $350+ on a nice regged tank I'd rather spend $200 on a nice hp preset and then $80 on a Palmer Stabilizer female or similar- will it get the same or better performance for a little savings? What other regs do people use in the same way?

Thanks a lot... again!

[Joni]

Originally posted by cjpaintball
I should have clarified- I read "triple regging a mg" is bad a lot on forums because everybody asks "where can I put a vertical reg?" Anyway, what I meant was "for people who buy hp preset tanks, what female or inline reg do they typically use in order to get the best consistancy and recharge rate with the high pressures required for mags?" Basically, I would be as cheap as possible and instead of spending $350+ on a nice regged tank I'd rather spend $200 on a nice hp preset and then $80 on a Palmer Stabilizer female or similar- will it get the same or better performance for a little savings? What other regs do people use in the same way?[/B]

You do not need an inline reg if you have a preset, nor should you use one. Having an inline reg is triple regging. I use my automag68 with preset just fine.

[trevorjk]

a crossfire preset works just fine im useing a 88ci 4500 psi 800 or 850 preset and it keeps up just fine

[cjpaintball]

You do not need an inline reg if you have a preset, nor should you use one. Having an inline reg is triple regging. I use my automag68 with preset just fine.


a crossfire preset works just fine im useing a 88ci 4500 psi 800 or 850 preset and it keeps up just fine

I never heard of someone considering a preset tank as regged... I'll take your word for it though. What kind of consistancy can be expected from a mag directly connected to a preset tank?

Also, does anyone know if there is a website devoted to electronic frames for the automag? I know that modders sometimes replace the boards in electronic frames for cockers with other electronic boards like Chaos, WAS, and Morlock boards, but I don't know where I'd find out whether ir worked and instructions on how to do it.

I probably wouldnt anyway if it voids your warranty... it must void it for a reason... eh, it doesnt seem like mags are worth it. Since the hyperframe obviously can damage the mag somehow, and the E and X-MAG are too expensive, I dont see the point.

Thanks for your help though, great community!

[trevorjk]

if hyper frames are mounted correctly they wont harm your gun... sure you may need to replace the on/off pin its self but thats maybe once a year from what ive heard and there only like 5$ to replace.

as far as consistancy i have yet to get any shoot downs unless i chuff a ball ( meaning a ball didnt get all the way into the breach and the level 10 kicked in and shot 2 balls my next shot )other then that situation its very consistant over the chrono... with mags with the lvl 10 the velocity is about +/- 5 for me after fine tuning and what not

and as for the electronic frames devoting stuff... look for threads here on AO search for hyper frame or something like that although i do not know of an actual website there is a small following of people that could easily explain everything you need to know about hyperframes and while on the hyperframes they dont damage the gun its self they just mushroom the top of your on off pin wich is very easily replaceable but like i said if set up correctly there shouldnt be any problems


and mags are definetly worth it you can pick up used emags for around 500-600 or so and and usually you wont have to fine to it... but if you do its only an hour at most to make that thing a beast mags will hold up against any other gun on the market in speed infact they can be better like zman said before look at his 22bps full auto video not one break hmmmm wheres all the other videos for others guns going that fast with no breaks? the only thing that holds and emag down is the fact that "mags are blenders" and there "very inefficient on air" both wich are untrue the lvl10 basically makes it impossible to break paint... while i get around 1400 -1600 shots off of my 88ci 4500psi tank wich isnt the best nor the worst infact when will you go through that much paint in a game anyways? unless your playing xball or something

well my fingers hurt now i hope your happy
;)

[Enemy]

hyper frames do there job as well as they can but because of the on/off system sometimes they end up chipping the bolt.. centerflag will fix it though..my problem with hyper frames is that there trigger is heavy and excessivly long like you get the click and then some travel its hard to walk these triggers.. plus my brother paid 350 for his so it wasnt cheap.. so put it this way you want a mag with an x-vavle for its performance if your looking for 20 bps which without full auto is hard with hypers so i would personally go the extra distance and get the emag and ule from there...just think its not the mechanical switch your paying for its the electro-magnetic trigger!!!.33mm...and yes the presets are a reg cuz without it you would be getting input pressures equal to whats left in your tank..oh and fyi the mags internal reg takes it down to 650psi it just needs the extra pressure to keep up the super high recharge rate!!! well thats enough

p.s. the only after market electronic frame ive been able to find is the hyper.. boyahh used to make one but theyve since gone out of business... centerflags web address is http://www.centerflagproducts.com

[Enemy]

to learn more about the hyper frame go to http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/etriggers/cflagmag/index.shtml if that link doesnt work its at warpig.com under the tech section on the side bar under modifications

[cjpaintball]

thanks for all the help, but I don't know. For me, the alternatives seem to be a better choice.

Basically I was also looking at a Viking, which would be a good amount cheaper than a ULEd E-Mag. It would be a little heavier and bigger, but its just as fast, never chops (with eyes), is more consistant (+/-1 or 2 after breakin), and is A LOT more efficient (~1800 off a 68/45).

The reason I ws looking into a Mag is because I though that you could get a nice ULE setup with a nice electro trigger for $800 or less all together. Apparently, the electro trigger isn't so great, the mag isn't that consistant, and then theres the efficiency problem.

In any case, I know that mags are still great guns. They're pretty much the smallest, lightest, and fastest things out there, as well as being high-quality and reliable. They just aren't for me.

Seriously thogh, you guys have been a lot of help. thanks.

[Joni]

Well, I guess you are right, although the consistency is no problem. With a nice preset an x-valved mag can be +/- 1-2 fps. A viking is still more efficient though, no doubt about it.

[Z-man]

Originally posted by cjpaintball
I never heard of someone considering a preset tank as regged... I'll take your word for it though. What kind of consistency can be expected from a mag directly connected to a preset tank?

Just to clarify the reg deal. All HP tanks are regulated. Whether you buy the cheapest $100 crossfire tank you can find or you buy the top end $500 Apocalypse tank they all are regulated.

The idea of a regulator is simply to take a high input pressure on one end and lower it down. A preset tank is just a regulator that is not adjustable (hence the "preset" name). Typically they are preset to 800-850psi, which covers any marker on the earth right now.

The adjustable regulators are more expensive because they give you the ability to adjust how high or low your output pressure is.

What I have noticed in general is 2 things.

First, if you had 2 preset tanks from the same company and one was a 4500psi system and the other a 3000psi system and they were both filled to 3000psi, the 4500 system would get more shots per tank.

Seems in general the regulators that are rated for the higher pressures (in general) perform better than do those rated for lower 3000 systems


Second Quality adjustable tanks (in general) outperform presets (usually by a few hundred extra shots pre tank, assuming the same sized tanks and guns). In general the adjustable tanks are better quality and do the job better.

Good luck in whatever direction you go. I do know that there are some very knowledgeable hyper frame and booyah grip frame people out there you just have to find them ;)