RT pro = Ram Air Trans Am / 2001 vert feed autococker = Honda Civic

[t2m6c1]

This analogy is how I describe the mag vs cocker debate. You have to dump a ton of money into a cocker(Honda Civic)to get it to perform anywhere near the level of a stock Rt PRO (Trans Am).

[Cha0tic]

i think your analogy needs a little fixing.

a stock cocker cocsts somewhere in the 300's. a stock rt pro costs somwhere around 600, right? you just cannot compare the 2. now take an rt pro and compare it to an black magic or STO and it will be a little different.

[lonelymag]

well the vert feed are going for about 500, but thats just the feeding and its like 100+ more.

[Major Ho]

Hey Hey now... I resent having a cocker being compared to a civic. I hate civics but love my cocker. I love my retro too but its not fair going around calling ppls guns Rice Burners :(

[t2m6c1]

You need to check your prices again. You can get a rt pro for $585.00, vert feed autococker $460.00, black magic run $820.00 and sto around $780.00.

The point I was making is that you have to pour a bunch of money into a stock cocker to make it perform anywhere near that of a stock pro. Autocoker owners say they like there gun because they can personalize it. Say they can buy this and that to make their gun outperform all others. Just like all these hooped up imports running around.

All cocker owners are doing is making a overpriced suped up (Civics) that cant perform above a stock RT Pro(Trans Am).

:cool:

[Deadpool3]

i couldn't agree more :)

[DRAGONSLAYER]

I think your analogy is right on. Remember, a $50,000 Civic is still a Civic.:D

[Major Ho]

Originally posted by t2m6c1
All cocker owners are doing is making a overpriced suped up (Civics) that cant perform above a stock RT Pro(Trans Am).

Whoa whoa whoa there buddy...Lets not count our horses before they...Dang i forgot the saying... :D
I seriously beg to differ on a decked out cocker or a stock RT. Also it comes down to personal preference...Some people like to tinker and upgrade/personalize this and that. Another thing is that teh mag cocker debate is nearly non existant or possibly even dead now a days. MANY MAG owners own COCKERS or vice versa. So Please, end this annoying debate before it turns into a huge flame.

Add on: You know what would end this debate? To find out if Mr. Kaye has a cocker! I wonder...

[Fritzy]

I seem to remember Tom stating he owns several Cockers. When either he or Budd are asked which gun is better they usually respond "buy both", which is what I have done several times.

I always seem to stick with my Mags, though. Right now my Emag is far and away my main gun. Prior to that it was my RT, aside from a short stint with an Angel. I feel the Emag is the perfect match of incredible performance and supernatural durability (laying it on a bit thick, huh).

Anyway, I haven't had a Cocker for almost 2 years, but just picked up a 2001 vert a week ago. They seem to have really improved on the stock gun. Right now I am just going to replace the 3-way (stock one is a bit too leaky, nothing a Quickswitch can't cure)and of course the barrel. Cycles really well, though. I must say, there is just something really cool about a well timed Cocker. I am excited to play with one again.

Of course, in a money game give me my Emag every time!

[Tubby_Ninja]

You can't compare a Cocker to a Civic! A Civic always works!:)

[mac2k4]

a stock cocker is as good as a stock RT pro.
if cockers all so bad why r they the 2nd most shot guns on the circuit?
Even for the people who can't afford to much still could set up a cocker in under 200
think about it...

[t2m6c1]

I dont understand why anyone buys a stock cocker. After all the upgrades the only thing stock left on the gun is the body(if you dont get it milled or anodized) and the cocking rod.

Why not build a gun from scratch and save $350 to $500? Everone and thier brother sells cocker upgrades are the stock guns that bad? :cool:

[Mag89]

Hey, hey now people just calm down. I like both cockers and mags. And I don't understand why mag owner's hate cockers sooooooooooooo much it just dosen't make any sense. Have any of you that hate cockers even shot one before??????? If you haven't shot a cocker then you have almost no reason to hate cockers.

[Zumina]

$585 for RT Pro power feed, $338 2K1 Cocker vertical feed, $619 2K1 STO, and $700 Black Magic.

[Twiek]

I have owned both. I like my new cocker a lot, though. Mabey if I had the money to fling around more paint, I'd go back to a mag or angel, but when I can play all day using 1/2 the paint and 1/4 the air.....

[rt_81]

im sorry but thread titles such as this one are just plain ignorant. anone who has played the game for more than a few months and has done a minor amount of talking to people who know about guns/reading the ao forums knows that the autococker is truly a quality gun. my first tournament level gun was a mag clasic. then i threw down 1000 bucks on a cocker and air system and i havent regreted it for a second. i love the gun and to be quite honest im not going back to a mag. while i do love the simplicity, quietness, and easy matinence of the automag i havre found the pros of the cocker outweigh them for me.

i did have the chance to shoot an emag a few weeks ago and was very impressed. one of the problems i have with the cocker is the rate of fire, im not fast with it at all. but i could sure rip off the rounds with the emag. so ill wait till the new emags come out this winter and go from there.

so, do your homework mr. t2m6c1, and you will find that there are great pros and cons for each marker.

RT

[Mag89]

Originally posted by DRAGONSLAYER
I think your analogy is right on. Remember, a $50,000 Civic is still a Civic.:D

Yeah you are correct that a $50,000 civic is still a civic but it is a better civic though.

[Magoo]

You should tell the people at my field that the cocker/mag debate is over. They never stop buggin me about having a mag. They say all the stuff about cockers shoot further, more accurate,ect., ect. They say mags chop paint but I only chop paint when I'm not really paying attention and short-stroke. I've had a cocker and shot quite a few. My friends all have cockers (almost) one has a Dark which is nice, but I like mags better. I think most tourney players like cockers more then mags because either
A.) They've never shot a mag
B.) They buy into all the hype about cockers
C.) Just like to tinker/upgrade alot

If I ever get enough money I'll finish upgrading my mag and then probably buy a cocker. Well, acually buy a Blazer first(had one also. I havent decided if the blazer is better then the mag) because I like them more. Then a cocker.

[C¥borg]

Trans Am, you could have said something better than that. I personally don't like civics, but I have seen some really nice ones (who hasn't on west coast?) that can keep up with just about any car out there.

OK I like cockers, I like mags, they both have there upsides and down sides, when compairing the two I have to say they are on equal ground (except for e-mag it's in it's own class) Let's look at it this way, they are the only high end guns out there that aren't electro, you can short stroke both, and they both work better on Compressed Air. I think people should completly end the Mag/Cocker debate and turn it into a manual vs electro debate, personally I prefer a manual trigger. Mag and cockers users should unite!

[OldSchoolMag]

Yeah, I'd have to say that the cocker/automag debate will end up with most if not almost all using BOTH. Also, I think I've said this about a million times, or at least once, but I'll say it again - there are THREE main types of play - Scenario, Tourny, and Rec ball.

Scenario users get down and dirty - water proofing is as usefull as a hopper. Tinkering is for the airsmith - BEFORE the game. When I play scenarios, I pick up a 'mag - as do most of my friends (cocker owners included) just because they know they can put it down for a year and pick it back up, run a hundred balls through it and it'll shoot like it had been shot and tuned every weekend. It's the less hassle kinda 'gun.

Tourny players want every millimeter they can get over the opposing team. That means tinkering. LOTS OF TINKERING. I've seen people spend weeks preparing their 'guns to perfection. It's an art, a religion, a perfection. Autocockers are the fine choice for most tournys - completely customizable, if you can handle these guns and get used to the cons it comes with (just like the 'mag has cons...) it can be one good piece of machinery. Most tourny players (and the main people that have PICTURES which is why you hear "Well, everyone I see uses a 'cocker!") use these, but not all. It's all opinion and time-schedule oriented.

Rec players use anything. 'Mag, 'Cockers, everything. No way to classify these guys.

Also, the best analogy I can think of for this situation is RT Pro = RT Pro/ Autococker = Autococker. Play with what you like. My motto - If it shoots, use it. Skill determines who wins in the end. Skill in tuning your gun, getting behind bunkers, aim, etc. Any long term player can tell you that. To tell you all the truth, this debate is no longer interesting for me. I remember down at the field when we'd spend HOURS arguing. In the end, I think we made a deal - we bought the other 'guns. And to this day, we own BOTH. If you haven't OWNED either one - I mean tuned, shot, sung songs to it - don't slam it. Try it.

I know it says in my signature that I'm an "AGD user for life" (or it should, I think) and it's true - I'll always own and AGD product - but that doesn't mean I'm not a WGP user too...

[0100010]

I disagree with that analogy, somewhat. Because I own an RT with ZGrip, N2 and Warp Feed, but I also own a 2K1 Civic. Love the mboth, and it's hard to decide which one to spend money on.

[DRAGONSLAYER]

Mag89, true,true.

:D

[DryIce]

trans ams smell
where do you get off even bringing them into the equation :)

[DarkRipper]

Sorry, I can't help but laugh at the people that compare RTs to cockers.

There are negatives and positives to both. I won't ever own an RT, for instance.... I don't like the trigger. I can't stop chopping paint at high ROFs.

Conversely, I won't own a stock cocker. It's stock, for one thing.

You are comparing apples to oranges, and the comparison falls on its face.

Thanks for playing!

DR

[MyCockerIs4U2NV]

Dr. Why must you stray over here from the great PBC? That is a no no! LoL..

I think that going with the price of a stock vert feed cocker is now 339, and Rt Pro's are now around 500, that you could make a cocker equal if not better (in my opinion) than a stock Rt Pro. I dont like the feel of the Rt's trigger anyways.

[Ninja B0Y]

I got my STO for $650 out the door and even if it was the stock cocker, it doesn't need anything to perform as the same as the RT. It's got a reg, the front pneus work fine, and it shoots fast.

[Arturus]

Originally posted by mac2k4
a stock cocker is as good as a stock RT pro.
if cockers all so bad why r they the 2nd most shot guns on the circuit?
Even for the people who can't afford to much still could set up a cocker in under 200
think about it...

Uh... Stock cocker is as good as a stock RT Pro?

Umm.. No. :)

Oh and I like both type of markers. Just the preference for a Mag has a little edge over the two. But a stock of the cocker being good as the stock of an RT Pro.. Nope.

:cool:

[MyCockerIs4U2NV]

Uh.... Yep... :D

[Arturus]

Originally posted by MyCockerIs4U2NV
Uh.... Yep... :D

Hey now, don't be a copy cat. Curt and unintelligent responses like that are my trademark. :p

*grins* And umm.. No, they're not.

lol - STO's and Black Magic's might be a different story, but plain old 'stock' cockers by many users and reviewers of markers, in general take it for a given that it's not as good a 'stock' Mag.

Sure it's a 'decent' marker as a stock, but it's generally accepted that once you buy a stock cocker, you upgrade or add certain aftermarket parts to it.

Oh and I'm not one to get into cocker vs mag debates, but by your name I can already take a hint and say that even if we did debate this, you have a slight bias towards cockers; more so than I would towards a mag. So I give up.

To me it's all about preference which marker to use in the end, but let's not spread false info out there.

Stock cocker comparable to a Stock RT? Sure in preference, but in terms of sheer performance... Uh... No. :D

[MyCockerIs4U2NV]

Have you looked at the new cockers? Sure back in 97-98, when you got a stock cocker, the 3 way sucked, the internals were crappy, along with everything else. But now everything on a stock cocker is pretty much great. Honestly, all a STO is is a stock vert feed cocker milled, and annoed. Then they chrome plate the front pnue's (brass -*shudders*) and slap an ergo reg and a aftermarket frame on there. And it gets a J&J barrel, if you count that. That is it.. So if you mean it looks better then a stock cocker. Then yes. But if you mean it preforms better, then no....:D

[Arturus]

Originally posted by MyCockerIs4U2NV
Have you looked at the new cockers? Sure back in 97-98, when you got a stock cocker, the 3 way sucked, the internals were crappy, along with everything else. But now everything on a stock cocker is pretty much great. Honestly, all a STO is is a stock vert feed cocker milled, and annoed. Then they chrome plate the front pnue's (brass -*shudders*) and slap an ergo reg and a aftermarket frame on there. And it gets a J&J barrel, if you count that. That is it.. So if you mean it looks better then a stock cocker. Then yes. But if you mean it preforms better, then no....:D

Hey! We both agreed! 'No' being the keyword there. :p

hehe Well, sooner or later I'll be running into cockers and I'll need to get some technical knowledge of them; beyond the basics. So I'll take your word for now, and when I get the chance, do a follow up and brush up on cockers.

Like I said, I actually like other type of markers beyond my Mag. Just a slight preference towards it.

[SIGSays]

final conlusion:

we compare the RT Pro = $600 (Acura Integra Type R) damn fast and tight Honda

to a

2k1 sto autococker = $620 (Ford Tempo)

notice the capatilization sto and RT Pro ever the crap car got capatilized :)

[Ball Buster]

Originally posted by C¥borg
Trans Am, you could have said something better than that. I personally don't like civics, but I have seen some really nice ones (who hasn't on west coast?) that can keep up with just about any car out there.



Boy those ricers sure have alot of people fooled. :) There aren't too many STREET LEGAL civics that can break 12 seconds in the Quarter mile... My car will do that stock. :) Albeit, a 12.9X but it'll do it.. :)

[blnk162]

Well guys....i have a 95 honda civic ex.....and yes i spent some money on it to make fast and it will beat pretty much any class b car on the road....ive even beat a trans am with ram air.....and ive had an rt and a v feed cocker before and i like both.....its presonal preferance and if u like one over the other...who is someone to tell you that you shouldnt buy a certain gun or car

[Mag89]

I am with Cybourg. Mag and cocker users should unite against electro users.

[Sandmankc]

Originally posted by Ball Buster


Boy those ricers sure have alot of people fooled. :) There aren't too many STREET LEGAL civics that can break 12 seconds in the Quarter mile... My car will do that stock. :) Albeit, a 12.9X but it'll do it.. :)

You are very naive my friend. I'm seen plenty of street legal civics and tegs run 12's. That seems to be the general consensus of a lot of domestic car owners and the same thing with some marker owners. Being very close minded and thinking that whatever they have is gold and whatever anyone else has is crap.

Shaun

[Ball Buster]

Originally posted by blnk162
Well guys....i have a 95 honda civic ex.....and yes i spent some money on it to make fast and it will beat pretty much any class b car on the road....ive even beat a trans am with ram air.....and ive had an rt and a v feed cocker before and i like both.....its presonal preferance and if u like one over the other...who is someone to tell you that you shouldnt buy a certain gun or car

Hmm... I hate to do this.. but I gotta wave the BS flag.. you must have spent quite alot on that civic.. Like in terms of 4-zero's...ala' 20k or so... Even if your running NOS you still wouldn't be able to hang with alot of stuff ie. Vettes, T/A's, SS's, Cobra's or nice GT's..etc... I'm not real sure what you class a "b" Car on the road... But you haven't "BEAT" a WS6... Two things had to happen.. either A.)He was screwing with you or B.) It was a V6.. I could see you hanging with and beating a sixer..

I'm not sure what you have, but I've ran a 2K VTEC Lude with DC header, Mugen Exhaust, cam and gears, AEM Cold Air and a few other mods, which I would argue would be some what quicker than your Civic, I could be wrong but for some reason he couldn't hang... He's a really good friend of mine and he would have loved to eat me, but he couldn't.. I drive a Y2K Ram Air (which, by the way really means nothing other than "better gas mileage" and very little performance over the stock T/A's, although better than the Camaro SS's) Trans Am.. 5.7L WIth Mac Headers, GMMG Exhaust, LS1 Motorsports Lid, Yank ST3500 Converter...

I'm not tryin to dis on your car.. I'm also not an "import hater".. Just calling you on what you said.. I find it hard to believe you waxed a 1997-up Ram Air without dropping MAD money into your car.. Like LOTS of money.. I used to drive a Stealth RT/TT and wanted to get another "import" but there's nothing quite like the rumble of the V8..

Anyway... Keep bustin balls. :)

[Ball Buster]

Originally posted by Sandmankc


You are very naive my friend. I'm seen plenty of street legal civics and tegs run 12's. That seems to be the general consensus of a lot of domestic car owners and the same thing with some marker owners. Being very close minded and thinking that whatever they have is gold and whatever anyone else has is crap.

Shaun

Naive huh? I don't think there are that many "civic's and teg's" running around breaking the 12's without dropping quite a large amount of $$$$$ into them..

I'm not close minded in the least.. I came VERY close to buying a Civic SI or a Lude..Some of my best friends drive imports.. Two of my best friends drive Lude's.. I even used to drive a "hybrid" Import.. Dodge Stealth RT/TT... Mitsu engine, etc.. Dodge body.. I've seen alot of kids in Civic's at the track who have VERY VERY nice cars, great paint jobs etc, completely trick cars, looked mean, but they just weren't that fast..

I also don't think what I have is Gold and what everyone else has is crap... My best friend plays paintball with a JT Excellerator.. I have a tricked mag.. LOTS of people call his gun crap.. I love his gun... so that's not really the case.. It's more like calling someone on their BS.. I drive a Trans Am.. I've ran a highly tricked Civic SI running a small shot of juice versus me with all engine and I got him rather easily.. I've waxed my share.. But I've also been waxed.. I'm also not saying I've never been beat, I've had "it" handed to me by a BPU Supra rather badly.. I've also had it handed to me by other T/A's, hmm an Z06 Vette, 94 Turbo Vette, couple ground rattling 5.0's.. a 125hp shot of NOS or a Vortech 9# supercharger can be amazing... But I have yet had a Civic hand it to me.. LIke I said, i'm sure there's some out there that can, but if I had the money they spent on their car in mine.. I'd be running mid 8's...

Comparing a Civic to a TA is kinda like comparing a BE Stingray to maybe a Mag? I mean, well just think about it.. Isn't the Civic a 2.0L compared to a 5.7L? There's common knowledge among car enthusiasts (sp) whether it be Imports or Domestics that goes like this "There is no substitute for Cube's".. Nothing wrong with either gun/car really.. Just different league's... I'm sure there are Civic's out there that can roast me, but chances are they'll show up at the track on a trailer and I won't catch them on the streets...

anyway... I'll go ahead and slap a "please don't flame me, this is not meant as a flame, just my opinion" statement on here to try and keep that from happening me.. If you should choose to flame me, please keep it off the board and put it in my mailbox.. :)

[cphilip]

Originally posted by t2m6c1
Why not build a gun from scratch and save $350 to $500?

Oh here we go again. Some of you boys might not rememenr my analogy on this building a cocker from scratch so here it is again...

Building a Cocker from scratch is like being pecked to death by chickens.

:cool:

[MyCockerIs4U2NV]

And actually, if you built a cocker yourself, you would end up spending more money then if you bought a "factory custom". You would of course also have to time it yourself. But then again, you would have exactly what you want on it. You could get your own milling and anno done. Its all preference, and it just comes down to if you have the money or not. :D

[shartley]

LOL I just got through reading ALL of this Thread!

I was wondering where all this would go…

Would it end up being a FLAME War about Imports VS Domestics... Close, had a few diversions in that direction.

Would it end up being a FLAME War about Cockers VS Mags... Close, had a few diversions in that direction.

But actually, it went pretty much nowhere. LOL But I guess that is a good thing.

How do I feel about this? Have you ever seen a dog clean its privates on a lazy mid-summer afternoon? Now remember its expression when it noticed you watching it? Yah, that’s the one... where it looked as if it could care less about you watching, but you messed up his rhythm, and then it got back to cleaning.

This conversation is about the same. No matter how we all feel, the dog will simply go back to cleaning. It will never change people’s minds, people will always make analogies that just don’t match up (to prove whatever point they would like to make), and someone will probably end up getting insulted.

I say... Don’t watch the dog then! You keep YOURS clean, and he will keep his clean. ;)

Paintball Anyone? :D

[cphilip]

Well...as much as I am ashamed to admit it I cannot help but admire this gift God gave to Dogs. And a lot of other animals for that matter. However this gift was withheld from us Humans. Except of course for the very few extra nimble ones that I saw at a club in Florida once...but I digress...

Anyway, I think he must have given us opposing thumbs to compensate for this oversite. But then how do you explain why all the Great Apes got both? Is life fair? Should I be even thinking about this? Should Sahrtley have even noticed this? And why was he so intent on watching long enough to describe it so vividly? I dare not venture a guess...:eek: