Is a spyder closed bolt.....inquery

[Commissar_Loki]

Well I know, technically yes, they are open bolt, however if you think about the operations of the thing. Where is the bolt when the hammer hits the vlave? Why closed or very close to closed, since their attached. Hammer AND bolt moves forward together, thus the bolt should be closed or very close to. Maybe I'm way off, I'm no airsmith, but it seems to me that my logic is sound (go figure). Anyway, would anyone be so kind as to clear this up for me or comment? Thanks in advance.

[bleachit]

I believe a "true" closed bolt marker, has the bolt in the forward position before the trigger is pulled. Since the spyder is in the back when the trigger is pulled, it is considered an open bolt.

[Evil Bob]

No, the spyder is an "open bolt" marker. "Open bolt" and "closed bolt" refer to the state of the bolt position BEFORE the trigger is pulled. Dont let SmartParts confuse you with their BS marketing tactics.

Closed bolt historically has a slight accuracy advantage over open bolt systems simply due to the fact that there is zero wait time for round on target and the action does not need to move in order to chamber a round for firing. The firing sequence for closed bolt is "pull trigger, fire, rechamber next round", the firing sequence for an open bolt is "pull trigger, chamber round, fire". This chambering action prior to firing, its raw intertia of the parts moving and the delay in firing the round itself, can cause your point of aim to change enough that you miss the target or allow your target to leave the impact area before the firing sequence is completed. This is quite true in real world firearms whos those parts have a substantial weight and inertia to them being constructed from heavy metals to withstand the high chamber pressures necessary to propel the round through the barrel. Fortunately, in paintball, it is mostly a moot point since we can use light weight plastics and composites due to the fact that our operating chamber pressures are substantially lower then those used in weapons systems that rely upon the exploding gun powder to propel the round down the barrel. Since we use vastly lighter parts, there is very little inertia felt/present when the marker cycles, unless you happen to be firing a VM68, at which point you will feel the whole marker move when the bolt slams forward since the bolt itself weighs so much. Anyone who owns one will testify to this.

-Evil Bob

[tyrion2323]

There is no accuracy advantage to closed or open bolted paintball markers. While this is true in firearms, it is NOT true in paintball markers.

The only factors affecting the accuracy and range of a marker are:

paint-bore match
consistency of regulator

Don't believe the hype. Spyders are as accurate as cockers.

[GT]

all paintball guns fire in the closed bolt postion......:D

[thei3ug]

Originally posted by tyrion2323
There is no accuracy advantage to closed or open bolted paintball markers. While this is true in firearms, it is NOT true in paintball markers.

The only factors affecting the accuracy and range of a marker are:

paint-bore match
consistency of regulator

Don't believe the hype. Spyders are as accurate as cockers.

that's a bunch of bull caca and i'll tell you why.

Autocockers have about 40 grams moving 3/8" when you pull the trigger. the ball exits, and the gun cycles.

Spyders, especially the older fatty strikers, have what... over 100 grams under much stiffer spring tension, traveling over an inch BEFORE THE BALL EVEN ENTERS THE BARREL. You can "bench test" all you want, but the day you tie your marker to a mahogony desk and cart it around the field with you is the only day I'll say "sure, you were right." Heck, remember stainless barrels? everyone says they're so darned accurate. Sorry, but a tylenol gelcap traveling down a glorified sewer pipe is not going to be accurate. THE BARRELS WERE HEAVY!!! They stabilised the gun. That was the whole point! The spyder is not a stable firing platform in COMPARASIN to the autococker. And no, I'm not spyder bashing. I honestly could care less.

not only that, You're comparing a SPECIFIC MARKER to another SPECIFIC MARKER. Closed bolt or open bolt has nothing to do with it. The inherent qualities of an autococker give it the POTENTIAL to be more accurate, and with both tuned to perfection, the cocker will STILL have the potential to be more accurate.

Furthermore, with an open bolt, the paint to bore match is not as relevant, especially with shorter barrels. The matched bore origionally kept balls from rolling too far down the barrel, and causing bloopers. If the ball is only there for 5 milliseconds, what difference does it make? There are a few swings in consistancy with an unmatched barrel, but the shorter it is, the less significant those swings are. ONLY CERTAIN CONDITIONS AND CERTAIN BARRELS allow the barrel to make a difference in accuracy.

and if you want to claim the air system is to blame for inaccuracy, then you're going to have to include the use of teflon tape, the cupseal you're using, the valve springing of certain markers, whether or not it's clean inside...

The accuracy thing has gone on long enough, and it's S T U P I D.


But this whole "AC vs mag vs spyder" thing is irrelevant. THE OPEN-BOLT CLOSED-BOLT ARGUMENT IS FUTILE IN THE MODERN TOURNAMENT ENVIRONMENT. Mags, shockers, Angels, Matrix markers... all of these have relatively low reciprocating mass during the action, ALL of them shoot at relatively the same pressure, and all of them chamber the ball before firing. They all come with regulators that for the most part put out a consistant pressure, and the valves for all are relatively consistant. the argument is dated, it is ignorant, it is from paintball's PAST, and should no longer be brought up.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by thei3ug
Sorry, but a tylenol gelcap traveling down a glorified sewer pipe is not going to be accurate.
...
The accuracy thing has gone on long enough, and it's S T U P I D.

Much of what you said is true. AND I love the quotes above.

But.....


It's all completely irrelevant in paintball. Whatever inaccuracy is induced by the movement of the marker due to reciprocating mass is negated by the inherrent inaccuracy of a paintball/sphere in flight.

Then add to it the rediculous unstable shooting position used by most/all players talking about acccuracy is absolutely pointless.

[thei3ug]

for those that don't know... i'm not really upset or pissy about it, I just like to goof off...

I understand what you're saying, but I do think marker stability comes in to play BECAUSE of how they hold it, rather than being negated by it. The contortions and weird positions that people go through nowadays IMO makes it more difficult to hold it stable, and though the ball itself is a knuckleball, i think a centimeter or 2 at the tip of the barrel will likely make some difference.

[tyrion2323]

The13ug,

as nice of a rant as that was, you proved my point, which was that accuracy is not based on whether a marker is open or closed.

You jumped on my comparison of a spyder and an autococker; however, you failed to take into consideration that Spyders can be tuned very well and upgraded to be great markers. Had I said autocockers vs....say intimidators or vikings, which both started off as spyders, i'm sure that the argument would have been different.

When you discount physics and actual testing in order to make a case for something which is inherently based within physics, you automatically disqualify your argument. Test have been done which prove that the nature of the bolt doesn't affect accuracy. I'd recommend that you read up before you go into an angry rant.

[J_Hoyt]

If you're going to talk about reciprocating mass, then absolute numbers are irrelevant. Shouldn't you be thinking about the ratio of moving mass to mass at rest? If a bolt weighs 3 lbs, it wont matter too much if the marker body weighs 7 and a half metric tons. Also a 3 gram bolt could really throw off a 6 gram gun. Yes, extreme exaggerations but you can plug in realistic numbers yourself. I'm not saying that reciprocating mass has anything to do with accuracy but if you're going to argue about moving mass, then also consider the mass that is at rest.

[Evil Bob]

Actually, the nature of the bolt is important, but only on the first shot, it's when we transition from single shot to rapid fire when the nature of the bolt becomes moot as the cyclic action of both systems will be identical.. cycle shoot cycle shoot cycle shoot, the inertia of the constantly moving mechanism overcomes any possible accuracy advantage they may have been between the two systems.

The fewer moving parts, especially ones with sufficient mass to affect the position of the end of the barrel relative to the target, the more stable the shooting platform, the better the initial accuracy on the first shot.

There are other factors that contribute to lower accuracy, one is the manner in which you pull the trigger, do you squeze it gently? Do you hammer on it? Do you fan it with your free hand? When I was in the US Army, we used a trigger squeezing drill to show people how your trigger squeeze affects your accuracy. A metal washer is balanced on the end of the barrel just before the muzzle break, the goal is to squeeze the trigger smoothly to prevent the washer from falling off. New soldiers would typically jerk the trigger, and the washer would fall off every time. Lots of practice and trial and error would teach them the correct method. The whole theory here is, that single milimeter of barrel movement during the triggering cycle is enough to throw off the bullet's trajectory by several feet at 100 meters.

Now some of you will slag this off saying "the paintball itself is highly inaccurate to begin with" but if your barrel is jerking all over the place while you're shooting, don't you think that it might be contributing to your overall loss of accuracy? A barrel that isn't moving all over the place has a higher percentage of chance to hit what it's aiming at, you will also have a smaller impact radius at the other end.

I've seen guys who can fan fast but can't hit the side of a barn. I've seen others to fire at under 10 bps and can put all their rounds into a 8" dinner plate. Then there are the rare individuals out there who can snap shoot at high speeds, and put their first 3 rounds dead on target every time.

Ask yourself... what are they doing right that I am not?

-Evil Bob

[Fred]

"Shut up! Make it stop! Make it stop! Shut Up! SHUT UP!"

[thei3ug]

accuracy is only based on physics once the ball leaves the barrel.

Before then, if the marker happens to JIGGLE AROUND while you're shooting it, then yah, it's gunna make a difference.

And it doesn't matter only on the first shot, that's assumning the jiggle is the same for every gun. if one gun jiggles more, the tip is gunna jiggle too, and if the tip is jiggling, then pooh on pooh.

And i don't know what point you were trying to make because I honestly don't care about the subject, and was ranting because I was bored. I don't know you, I saw "cocker" and "spyder" and decided to have fun.

You guys with your physics and model aeroplanes and tshirts that say "einstein was a patsy" can all just... erm...

[Gabriel]

I'll tell you what they are doing right that I am not... practicing. the resting bolt position has nothing to do with anything but the first shot. End of discussion. All guns rapid fire the same, that is chamber, shoot, chamber, shoot. And all guns, when fired, are in the closed bolt position.

gabe

[hardr0ck68]

dude dont listen to these goons, a cocker shoots farther and flatter than anyother gun, execpt a schocker which has heat seaking targeting. accuracy is decided by how low pressure you can make your marker run at! and its pressure in from the bottle, that matters not pressure after the regs, like a mag that runs with a pressure of ~750 in doesnt shoot as far as a schocker which takes like ~10 psi in those other regulaters are just there for looks and whatnot....yeah and remember spiral porting creats a vortex around the ball!! putting spin on it so you shoot people deader!! Man i RAWK!!

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by hardr0ck68
yeah and remember spiral porting creats a vortex around the ball!!

And you forgot that it releives the pressure in front of the ball and the vacuum behind!:D

Now why is it that ALL these claims are from SP?:p

[Gabriel]

sp sux

[skife]

I think thei3ug is a sniper!

[personman]

Originally posted by Evil Bob
The firing sequence for closed bolt is "pull trigger, fire, rechamber next round", the firing sequence for an open bolt is "pull trigger, chamber round, fire".
Eh? I'm pretty sure my balls are chambered in my mag before I pull the trigger.

[Tyril]

personman, actually no.


The mag's 'chamber' position is when the bolt is moved forward, creating a seal so that little/no gas escapes backwards when the shot is fired.

So in a mag, when you pull the trigger, the sear releases, the bolt moves forward 'chambering' the ball, then the gas is released through the bolt face, accelerating the ball down the barrel.



This is contrasted by the cocker's closed bolt position, where, when the gun is at rest, the bolt is forward and sealed.


hope this helps



-mike

[ramenjames]

i dont see why acc. is even important anymore.......i can just go buy and Angel speed or a ST bushy (66.6 bps capable) and shoot 450000000 paintballs at you......one of them is bound to hit and break:rolleyes:

[madmatt151]

Originally posted by ramenjames
i dont see why acc. is even important anymore.......i can just go buy and Angel speed or a ST bushy (66.6 bps capable) and shoot 450000000 paintballs at you......one of them is bound to hit and break:rolleyes:


Although this may be a joke I have to disagree. When I first started playing 10+ years ago, I was afraid when someone saw me because they were probably gonna hit me. Now I play on speedball fields, where guys are laying ropes of paint, and I am rarely getting hit. I mean 15-18 bps and SOMETIMES one or two hit me. And no I don't hide behind bunkers, heck most are too small for my 6' 275lb a$$.

Besides, everyone knows that when I use my pump I am more accurate than any sniper the US Military can find!!! :)

[Aleis]

If any of you want to see how much the mass enertia of parts really effects your gun close on eye and truely sight down the barrel while you pull the trigger, and see how much the tip of the barrel jumps thats whats important, i did this with my mag and it was minimal while i then tried it with an Omen and could even get close to holding the thing steady even firing one shot at a time. just remember that your target is a 30-100ft. away (mostly) so that little tiny jump the barrel tip makes is a lot bigger farther down the field.

[Gabriel]

Just when you thought it was safe... it's...



:eek: RESURRECTED!!! :eek: