Smart Parts E-Marker Workaround?

[homis]

Although I am by no means an attorney, I do have some experience in utility patents and IP (intellectual property). My question regarding the SP legal issue on electronic markers is this -> while SP apparently can squeeze other electronic marker makers for patent licensing, my understanding is that it would be extremely difficult (and very much cost prohibitive) for SP to prosecute the individual player that owns an electronic marker.

As such, does there exist the ability for a marker manufacturer to produce and market a marker that is capable of being operated electronically, but to do so requires some additional parts and installation? As such, what if AGD (as an excellent example) continued to manufacture e-mags sans solenoid, board, etc. Since they are capable of being fired mechanically, they are a fully saleable product. However, purchasing and installing the requisite parts necessary to convert the marker to electronic operation from other companies would be relatively easily accomplished.

Since the end user (consumer) who purchased the gun made the modifications and is not profiting/selling the now electronic marker, I'm don't think SP would have much of a case. I couldn't imagine that there would be an issue with providing warranty support to these modified markers, as AGD doesn't profit from the conversion. Comments?

[FalconGuy016]

I sincerely hope it never gets to that, but it sounds like a good alternative to me. But there are many E markers that arent mechanical (if any besides EmaG?), and I dont know how they could be without some serious modifications. But I guess if it came to that, thats a possibility.

[paint magnet]

I say make it easier than requiring installation of a solenoid and board, etc.

Perhaps just selling the battery seperately would be enough to get around patent technicalities?

[homis]

paint magnet,

Nope. Won't work - you can't have patented technology in the product when sold that isn't licensed. You can't sell the top of an eMag separate from the bottom either -> too direct a correlation. Think the Intelliframe to Warp -> all the mounting brackets are there, your just need to buy the switch and wire it up.

Buy a solenoid, a battery pack (or "hollow fore grip"), rail, frame. Everything flows smoothly until you get to the board itself -> because the software is designed to receive a signal and fire a solenoid, the board would be marketed as a "fish tank valve controller" or some other unrelated product. The fact that it drops perfectly into a grip frame and readily plugs into the other parts is coincidence.

What's really interesting is in effect, the next logical concept is having a shop/other company purchase the parts, assemble them and sell the marker to you. Can't do that -> that company is infringing by selling a now converted e-Marker. You really can't get away with buying the parts yourself, giving them to a shop/individual and having them put it together either.

However, (this seems logical) you could have paid technical workshops where you bring the parts in and the workshop consists of supervised assembly of the marker. Since you the end user are installing/modifying, the only thing you are paying for is knowledge as it pertains to basic assembly, which isn't covered under the patent. And believe me, if the difference in cost of purchasing a marker was $300 if it took me a half hour in a supervised environment to assemble the product versus outright purchase, you bet I would do it. This is not as far fetched as it seems, and might be a saving grace for the companies that are up the proverbial creek as we speak. Plus, I'm sure the companies in dire straits would love to send a little "<B>*Cronk*</B> You" to SP.

<B>*Warning: No Cussing*</B> -Miscue

[hitech]

Originally posted by homis
This is not as far fetched as it seems...
You're right. I believe that technically it would all be legal. The only possible issue would be the emag sear. Since the only purpose of the extra attachment point and linkage is to attach a solenoid, it could be a problem. Then again, if you could make an argument that it’s purpose is to attach a pneumatic solenoid...

Bottom line is that it would most likely skirt the legal issues. However, I just can’t see it happening. But you never know…

[fearc7]

look what evil did, pretty smart:

The Evil P.I.M.P. Kit. It is basically a new gun (like an impulse) but the only thing it needs is an impulse sollinoid. They avoided Smart Parts by doing this because its called an "impulse upgrade kit", and because they use a Smart Parts sollinoid they can't be touched. It is also very doubtful SP can monitor where the sollinoids go.

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by homis
paint magnet,

Nope. Won't work - you can't have patented technology in the product when sold that isn't licensed. You can't sell the top of an eMag separate from the bottom either -> too direct a correlation. Think the Intelliframe to Warp -> all the mounting brackets are there, your just need to buy the switch and wire it up.

Buy a solenoid, a battery pack (or "hollow fore grip"), rail, frame. Everything flows smoothly until you get to the board itself -> because the software is designed to receive a signal and fire a solenoid, the board would be marketed as a "fish tank valve controller" or some other unrelated product. The fact that it drops perfectly into a grip frame and readily plugs into the other parts is coincidence.

What's really interesting is in effect, the next logical concept is having a shop/other company purchase the parts, assemble them and sell the marker to you. Can't do that -> that company is infringing by selling a now converted e-Marker. You really can't get away with buying the parts yourself, giving them to a shop/individual and having them put it together either.

However, (this seems logical) you could have paid technical workshops where you bring the parts in and the workshop consists of supervised assembly of the marker. Since you the end user are installing/modifying, the only thing you are paying for is knowledge as it pertains to basic assembly, which isn't covered under the patent. And believe me, if the difference in cost of purchasing a marker was $300 if it took me a half hour in a supervised environment to assemble the product versus outright purchase, you bet I would do it. This is not as far fetched as it seems, and might be a saving grace for the companies that are up the proverbial creek as we speak. Plus, I'm sure the companies in dire straits would love to send a little "F*** You" to SP. What about the people who live in east bumpuck that live no where near a tech or smith?

[Butterfingers]

Smart Parts can kiss my butt... I just finished sanding the Smart Parts Logos off my halo... and I am chastizing myself for not having enough foresight not to buy a SP halo 2 years ago.

Im not sure if that would work... thats an obvious attempt to bypass a patent.

I think if the time comes we should fight for what we think is an unfair patent.

[WARPED1]

As I've said, legally they've done nothing wrong. They just had the foresight to do something. Wether it's right or wrong is moot, no point now that the patent has passed. And from a business standpoint, it was a smart thing to do. But, considering paintball is such a close knit group, it was not a good thing to do for image. But they're making money. Even if you buy no SP guns, but decide to buy a Bushmaster, Matrix, or Intimidator, you are still giving SP money as these companies have signed agreements out of court with SP.

[dinger]

no comprende

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by WARPED1
As I've said, legally they've done nothing wrong. They just had the foresight to do something. Wether it's right or wrong is moot, no point now that the patent has passed. And from a business standpoint, it was a smart thing to do. But, considering paintball is such a close knit group, it was not a good thing to do for image. But they're making money. Even if you buy no SP guns, but decide to buy a Bushmaster, Matrix, or Intimidator, you are still giving SP money as these companies have signed agreements out of court with SP.


Actually they have done somthing wrong and If it were actually fought it court they would have a hard time... They are just trying to make it as expensive as possible for thier competitors so they will settle out of court.

The original patent was for the Penu Ventures shocker which was a specific patent. It specificly detailed the operation of the marker...

SP tried to file for an electonic switch activated PB gun but the patent was initally denied, it was too broad...

THEN...

As electros became popular other manufacurers made other electros NOT VIOLATING the patent because the design concept was completely diffrent...

Not too long ago smart parts being who they are... they filed for an EXPANSION of the original patent AFTER all these companies had been established.

Basicly the expansion patented what they had been denied in a seperate patent. Just because it was an addition to an existing patent it was granted.


So they basicly in one feldswoop stole the intelectual property of others by modifying a preexisting patent.


Its kinda like a person editing a post to thier own benefit after people had already replied to it. All of the sudden all the posts become irrelevant.

Its a dirty trick...

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

how about if a company were to sell say a sticker for whatever price the gun was, and they happen to have a deal for if you buy this uber expensive sticker you get a free pb gun

[paint magnet]

MayAMonkeybeyourPinata - That's kind of like scalpers selling tickets on ebay...you buy a $400 Bic pen and receive a pair of tickets for free :)

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

Originally posted by paint magnet
MayAMonkeybeyourPinata - That's kind of like scalpers selling tickets on ebay...you buy a $400 Bic pen and receive a pair of tickets for free :)

and your point is.....:D

[tony3]

homis please change your sig to the normal sig demensions

[homis]

Hey Tony,

My sig is the normal size - all of the graphics are well under the size limit (and load quite quickly). The rest of it (ie the black) is html and resizes with the page.

Now, to move away from my signature (which was pretty inappropriate and should have been addressed in a PM or by a moderator) and back to the topic of the thread...

WARPED1,

Interesting (and valid) point regarding if you live in a rural area. My only idea would be elegantly simple in execution. What sport do we play? Paintball. Where do we play it? At a field. Who else congregates at paintball fields? Paintball players. Thus, have a "tech session" at your field.

In general,

Although Smart Parts has gained some pretty serious initial revenue from out of court settlements, I am pretty sure that a large majority of regular players are aware of what they are doing and how it will affect the cost of the sport. Thus, I can only imagine that as it drags on, the awareness and anger of players will only increase, thus causing SP losses in potential revenue. The beauty of having an 'upgrade yourself' gun is that by skirting the issue of selling a fully assembled electronic gun, they can effectively avoid paying both the initial license and the per-gun license (and companies who have yet to be targeted and forced to pay), which dries up the revenue stream Smart Parts was counting on to make up for lost consumer revenue. If no one buys SP, and they can't generate revenue from the licensing, then they could (fingers crossed) ended up screwing themselves.

[NoFearPaintballer]

hold up.... dont other companys have a patent on their electro equipment? doesnt AGD have a patent on the electro part of the E/Xmag?

[paint magnet]

Originally posted by MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata


and your point is.....:D

While authorities and other government people with nothing better to do generally don't care about one person doing it, it's not likely they'd let a large company get away with it :(

[NoFearPaintballer]

then have a company sell it on ebay with a pen. no problem there

[Garrum]

What about abandoning the electronic operation, and design an air powered sear operator. Some sort of RT adaptation that trips the sear instead of pushing the trigger back out. Or has that been tried before?

Or, maybe the best option, stop using electronic guns altogether. Let SP drown in a sea of unused solenoids and boards. And mercilessly hound any team that still uses E guns for an edge over others. Punk them at every opportunity. Ignore them off the field, and treat them cruelly on the field. Make it known that anyone who supports the enemy ( SP ) is an enemy themselves.

Of course, I don't for one second believe that paint ball players have the will to band together like that, any more than I believe that a politician can be truthful twice in a row. It is a sport filled with immature players, looking only to have the next greatest 'thing', and concerned only with winning, even at the cost of the community as a whole.

Even though I have an E-grip on my A5, it wouldn't bother me too much if mechanical was all we could use.

[NoFearPaintballer]

put a patent on the trigger system and sue SP then we go back to having electros and we all are happy