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ForgedSpeed
02-06-2004, 01:56 PM
Whats the big deal with the quest for super light weight markers? Since when were paintball guns(or gun/tank/hopper setups) HEAVY.

I guess I am really an outsider looking in, but really dont get why people strive to have super light guns, or why I hear it talked about so much.

I see no real performance advantage, or have noticed any, in using lightweight guns. It is not like in football where you wear pounds of protective gear, and the lighter the gear means the faster you can run. We are concering ourselves with a couple pounds.

Anyway, hope no one takes this the wrong way, please enlighten me, maybe it is beneficial in some areas.

RoadDawg
02-06-2004, 02:04 PM
Lighter markers = longer play w/o the fatigue on your arm. I used to not complain about the weight of mags (pre ULE) but it wasn't til I started going ULE that I realized how much easier it is to carry and run with a lighter mag (2.6lb roughly) then say a 5.5lb mag. Less weight means less drag. By the way do you think a couple pounds isn't much look into auto racing. The lighter the vehicle the faster the take off speed. A couple pounds can make a small difference. Especially in a long day of playing.

Vendetta
02-06-2004, 02:06 PM
But doesn't lighter mean more recoil?

ForgedSpeed
02-06-2004, 02:09 PM
I see where you are coming from, I just find it ironic that some people playing the sport will apparently to great legnths to avoid just getting in better shape.

ForgedSpeed
02-06-2004, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Vendetta
But doesn't lighter mean more recoil?

I second this :D

shartley
02-06-2004, 02:19 PM
Yes, lighter means less fatigue, but honestly, games are not that darn long anyways. And scenarios tend to be the longest, but you find the heaviest marker/setups. LOL

And if folks want to bring up the down time (between games) as wearing you down, then put the marker on a sling or in a stand. Problem solved.

Some may also say it is easier to snap shoot with a lighter marker, but I argue that most markers are within close enough weight ranges that it does not matter. And then factor in that the weight with FULL hopper, vs weight with almost empty hopper there will be a difference…. And it is the SAME marker and setup.

So… what I say is that weight only really matters for those who don’t want to get themselves in shape, or bragging rights on who has the lightest marker. The advantages that a couple ounces, or even a full LB or two will not make the huge difference that people claim it does…. Unless you are a featherweight wimp (no insult intended, since I am sure we have NONE of those here on AO).

Paintball is a sport with many contradictions, and weight of markers is one of them IMHO. With the rough and tough, go get em, will kick anyone’s rear, paintball Gods all over the place, I find that THEY tend to worry the most about weight….. isn’t that ironic? ;) If you are that good, and that much of an “athlete”, then a couple ounces or even a few pounds should not matter.

Well…. that is just how I see it… I could be wrong.

Cryer
02-06-2004, 02:26 PM
on a mag, recoil is not prevalent enough to notice a difference. There's almost no recoil anyways.

For me, I just like lighter markers. Its like some people go for the fancy milling, hyper bps, or crazy anno jobs in some case, just user preferance.

I heard someone say "its like a horsepower junkie trying to squeeze that extra .25 HP out of their engine..." In the long run, .25 hp gets you nothing... except .25 hp more than the other guys.

Of course, there are some benifits, i guess. I used to have an amazingly light mech mag, now I have an Emag. The lighter one felt so much more comfortable and easier to snap shoot with.

I'm actually toying with the notion of trading my emag and getting another ULE mech mag and slapping on a Hyperframe.

mark_426
02-06-2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Vendetta
But doesn't lighter mean more recoil?

I thought about this too, with my angel. I had it hooked to a remote with the stock barrel (lighter than my ss) and no hopper, dryfiring, I had no rise whatsoever as I was shooting it, just a slight backwards movement. When I would sweetspot my RTP I would feel it lift some, but this was with an egg (weight is further backward) or revvy, and a halo nearly elminated it(more weight forward).

I would assume, not 100% sure on it though, but when you lighten all the parts on the inside (delron, lx bolt, etc), there isn't as much weight moving around, and voila, a proportional(less weight on outside) amount of recoil.

If worst comes to worse, hold on tighter;).

krafty
02-06-2004, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Cryer
I heard someone say "its like a horsepower junkie trying to squeeze that extra .25 HP out of their engine..." In the long run, .25 hp gets you nothing... except .25 hp more than the other guys
And just like those performance car guys, it sometimes costs you LOTS of money for a little bit of gain. I've seen people spend 3 grand on performance parts for a 5% power boost. Same goes for paintball. People can go crazy spending money to shave a couple of ounces off their gun. Is the weight difference between my BlackVCG-milled emag rail and an AGD ULE rail worth the extra 60 bucks? I don't think so, but some might.

Thordic
02-06-2004, 02:33 PM
Its all about snapshooting to me. My ULE RT is extremely light, and I can snap-shoot with it MUCH better than I can with a heavier gun.

The more maneuverable your hands are with the gun, the faster you can snap shoot, and the faster you can go from one side of your bunker to the other.

If someone is coming to bunker you and your gun is facing the wrong way, a pound in weight may make the difference between you getting bunkered and you eliminated the guy trying to bunker you as you swing your gun around.

It makes all the difference.

JuggaloDave
02-06-2004, 02:34 PM
i would much rather have a lighter gun, but it wont make the choice between guns. the lighter guns just feel better to me personly, dunno why, but they do to me. and i dont think that getting a lighter gun to avoid working out is a stupid comment. i mean what? the heavyest gun i've seen is maybe like what? 5 lbs? one of my cats comes in at 21lbs, i will loan it to you if you wanna try bench pressing her.

gibby
02-06-2004, 02:34 PM
My thoughts on this...It's all about preferences. Long drops, no drops. Mechanical, electro. Heavy, light markers. It's what the player feels is comfortable for him or her.

But tell you this...I certainly don't mind the lighter marker. :) As for recoil...well, stick in a level 10 bolt and you shouldn't have to worry much. ;)

-=Squid=-
02-06-2004, 02:37 PM
I always thought this too (yes my setup is heavy, rail + viking + halo ) but lightweight guns like mags help A LOT. Grab a talon and go running around, then take your gun setup and try. Big difference.

shartley
02-06-2004, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by -=Squid=-
I always thought this too (yes my setup is heavy, rail + viking + halo ) but lightweight guns like mags help A LOT. Grab a talon and go running around, then take your gun setup and try. Big difference.
Want to borrow my Stroker? ;)

Brophog
02-06-2004, 02:41 PM
It doesn't make much difference on small weight differentials, but it certainly does on large ones.

For instance, I know a guy whose marker weights over 12 pounds fully loaded. That includes Full Hopper, Red Dot, Aftermarket Regulators, and 88/4500 Tank.

No way am I using that 12 pound marker for any length of time. It is way too cumbersome for me. He's fine with it though, because he's massive, and he doesn't tend to move much.

I on the other hand, am not massive, and tend to move around a whole lot. Why would I want to take away my natural agility/speed advantage away by using that heavy marker setup.

If we're arguing a pound difference, or even less, then I agree your not gaining anything. However, if it becomes 5 or even 10 pounds of difference, then there is a really big difference.

-=Squid=-
02-06-2004, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by shartley

Want to borrow my Stroker? ;) Want to GIVE me your stroker?


P.S. Lemme borrow it for a tourney sometimes! :cool: (Seriously :))

Torbo
02-06-2004, 02:43 PM
it does make a difference. Probably biggest place i notice it is off the break. Its way easier to accelerate with a lighter gun. When playing snake for example, people often superman dive. Its reallu awkward to do this with a heavy gun. It tends to hit the ground. Lighter markers are easier to swing around, easier to handle etc.

shartley
02-06-2004, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Want to GIVE me your stroker?


P.S. Lemme borrow it for a tourney sometimes! :cool: (Seriously :))
LOL Yeah, right. But if we are ever at an event or field together, you are more than welcome to borrow it. :)

-=Squid=-
02-06-2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by shartley

LOL Yeah, right. But if we are ever at an event or field together, you are more than welcome to borrow it. :) You better come to the memphis indoor next year. :mad:

Butterfingers
02-06-2004, 02:51 PM
I dont buy into it...

I have just finished making the heaviest mag EVAR!!!

Greater than 60 percent of my gun is made from Stainless steel!!!

shartley
02-06-2004, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by -=Squid=-
You better come to the memphis indoor next year. :mad:
I will have to see. I know I am traveling farther than that this year, so as long as I can plan for it, it is possible.

To make sure, just remind me well in advance next time, okay?

-=Squid=-
02-06-2004, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by shartley

I will have to see. I know I am traveling farther than that this year, so as long as I can plan for it, it is possible.

To make sure, just remind me well in advance next time, okay? Agreed... its the only BIG tournement within driving distance for us. Were looking at bigger events, but were to poor to fly... were gonna try to work something out.

LeatherPants
02-06-2004, 02:53 PM
As far as light markers go I'm all for it. Not saying that I'm out or shape or lack the drive to get in shape either. I'm in the gym 5 days a week and at 5'8" 155lbs can more than double my weight on the bench.

BUT. I will be the first to agree that at the end of the day a lighter marker is nice. I play back and my marker almost never comes down during a game. Yea in the end it's not THAT much weight but try holding a 10 lb plate in front of you for an extended period of time. You get tired.

So in the end if I can shave weight off my marker with milling, lighter tank etc I will.

Wc Keep
02-06-2004, 02:57 PM
the only time that a lightweight gun is needed is when you are snapshooting/going from one side to the other. thordic hit it on the head. off the break i notice no difference but when im actually in my bunker and have to start snapping out thats where a lighter gun makes a difference.

dinger
02-06-2004, 03:18 PM
recoil/blowback isn't that bad in some cases...

for example, my friends eblade freeflow has more kick than a bull, and because of this you can sweetspot the thing and make it keep shooting :D but its kinda hard to do it

yet, it also shakes like a bloody machine gun and the barrel is twitching like someone having a seizure

ForgedSpeed
02-06-2004, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Torbo
it does make a difference. Probably biggest place i notice it is off the break. Its way easier to accelerate with a lighter gun. When playing snake for example, people often superman dive. Its reallu awkward to do this with a heavy gun. It tends to hit the ground. Lighter markers are easier to swing around, easier to handle etc.

So you would run considerably slower if I attached two 1 pound weights to your ankles? Thats about the difference between a heavy and light gun. I can not comment on the superman dive personally, but i would image it is awkward because they do not have enough practice with heavy setups.


Thanks guys

mark_426
02-06-2004, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by ForgedSpeed


So you would run considerably slower if I attached two 1 pound weights to your ankles? Thats about the difference between a heavy and light gun. I can not comment on the superman dive personally, but i would image it is awkward because they do not have enough practice with heavy setups.


Thanks guys

I would assume that he means speed in bringing the gun up...and the superman dive would definetally be harder, can you lay down on a bench (since you apparantly work out so much, and flame us for not) and with your arm(s) outstreched, hold a 15 pound weight as long or comfortably as a 5 or 10? Can you stand and hold a 10 or 15 up in front of you as easily as a 5 or 7.5?

Load SM5
02-06-2004, 03:42 PM
Your football analogy is a tad off since the extra weight is pretty evenly distributed over the entire person. when it's all down hanging from one hand you'd be suprised how much different a 6 ounces can make. Especially in todays X-Ball games where you're out there for 20 minutes matches.

For the front guys slinging the extra weight around can slow a guy down and make quick movements more awkward. Instead of attaching those 2 pounds weight to your ankles, try attaching them to the wrist of your right hand and try a zig zag run down the field. It can throw you off, since it's unevenly distributed.

For back guys who are constantly guns up stopping only for a few seconds to reload the extra weight could keep fatigue down and make switching sides easier and faster. And lets face it, if you had the option of a lighter gun, then why not?

It's not that players are lazy, it's that players like to eek every bit of edge out of their equipment possible. Less weight is an edge.

Recoil is rarely a problem since lower pressure guns and smaller lighter bolts are evolving along with marker technology.

ForgedSpeed
02-06-2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by mark_426


I would assume that he means speed in bringing the gun up...and the superman dive would definetally be harder, can you lay down on a bench (since you apparantly work out so much, and flame us for not) and with your arm(s) outstreched, hold a 15 pound weight as long or comfortably as a 5 or 10? Can you stand and hold a 10 or 15 up in front of you as easily as a 5 or 7.5?

Common man, im didnt mean to flame and whatnot, so if I did - my apologies.

I have never preformed a superman dive, maybe I should try sometime, but it seems to me that if you could do it with a 5 pound gun, then with some practice you can do it with a 10. But maybe i have no idea what im talkin about

ForgedSpeed
02-06-2004, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Load SM5
It's not that players are lazy, it's that players like to eek every bit of edge out of their equipment possible. Less weight is an edge.


I understand this, in the same way that people want 50 more shots per tank, 2 more bps, ect.

The reason why I posted this topic and asked was because it seemed to me, a person that has read paintball forums daily for 2 years, that in the past couple months weight have become the biggest issue, maybe this is because of the ULE thing, but it appears to be the same trend over at pbnation.com for example.

Anyway, thanks guys.

Load SM5
02-06-2004, 03:54 PM
Well weight has been a bigger issue here because that was one of the big stinks that non-mag users have been raising about mags along with the whole chopping thing. So Tom is trying to shake the whole stigma by coming out with a really light non-chopping gun.

TheTramp
02-06-2004, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by ForgedSpeed


Common man, im didnt mean to flame and whatnot, so if I did - my apologies.


You wern't flaming IMHO. He's just being touchy because he spent $1000 making his gun set-up 5oz lighter. :D ;) j/k

mark_426
02-06-2004, 04:04 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean to call it a flame (I didn't take it against me or anything), but I was just saying, it isn't that we are lazy, I personally go to a weightroom 2 times a week, and have a home throwers program to do the other 3 days.
I'm just saying that if you have to work out to use your equiptment, why not lighten it now, and as you use it more, you will gain the endurance, and it will become even more comfortable and easier to use.


edit: thetramp.. thats just hilarious.. I actually had more in the mags than in my current guns

Sir_Brass
02-06-2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by shartley

Want to borrow my Stroker? ;)


Yes, but I don't garuntee that you'll ever see her again :p. j/k

ForgedSpeed
02-06-2004, 04:09 PM
...or we could all play games where you limited to 400 paintballs, that would reduce weight too.

...and use pumps....only pumps.

mask are kinda heavy too...none of those needed....

and only use 12 gram c02 bottles.

I'm Brilliant :D ;) :)

shartley
02-06-2004, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Sir_Brass

Yes, but I don't garuntee that you'll ever see her again :p. j/k
LOL Come to the CPPA Gathering and you can borrow it. And I CAN guarantee I will see her again. ;) You coming?

Python14
02-06-2004, 04:29 PM
To expand on Loads post, having a light gun for a front player makes running easier. Being able to pump your arms as you run improves your speed. Having a 6 lb gun in one hand does not help improve this. However, if you can change that 6 lb gun to a 4.5 lb gun, you might be able to shave a second or two off your run to the 50....all because you could pump your arms better.

Thordic
02-06-2004, 04:33 PM
Also, think of this.

If you can do something well with a 5 lb gun, and you train yourself to do it well with a 10 lb gun, then you'd probably be twice as good at doing it with the 5 lb gun.

Being stronger doesn't mean you should carry a heavier gun just because you can. No matter how strong you are, you'll still move a lighter gun quicker.

logamus
02-06-2004, 04:37 PM
im not going to make up a pretty excuse, i like light guns because im too lazy to work out.


i also like cookies.

Dryden
02-06-2004, 05:09 PM
From my experience a weight difference of merely two pounds can be significant after only 20 to 30 minutes of woodsball action. Three to four pounds of gear can amount to whether one is able to stand after a second consecutive 6-hour day playing scenario or collapses from heat stroke. Granted, this is tailored to particular playing styles, field conditions, etc, but in my area, where all-terrain woodsball reigns - you can't shave enough pounds anywhere you can get it.

My using nothing other than a Mag over the past 6 years has less to do with the function of the marker than the fact that my previous semi, a PMI-3 (original model with all stainless internals), felt like a ton of bricks at the end of a long day - and had about enough recoil to dislocate a thumb. Of course, I learned to appreciate the Mag for a lot of other reasons later on (it's never failed me ONCE in 6 years - stock valve/bolt/body), but I was originally drawn to the MiniMag for the simple reason it was compact, light, and I could easily tote it around for two consecutive 95 degree+ summer days.

I don't imagine that I'd care much about weight if I played more indoor, speedball, etc, but everytime I play outdoor and climb a steep hill, I give praise to Tom Kaye that I don't have to carry my old PMI-3.

- Rich B

phantomhitman
02-06-2004, 06:02 PM
i will have to agree with people saying it is less cumbersome. it is much easier using a lightweight marker for snap shooting, and for me running and sliding. i have noticed a great decrease in weight and a huge increase in mobility when i got my xvalve and had my flatline on.

the_next_guy_
02-06-2004, 06:11 PM
I use a old shocker 4x4 with a 300rnd viewloader and a 114ci steel tank. Now look at me!
http://www.robertuniverse.com/danishstudy/images/bodybuilder.jpg

bunkermaster10
02-06-2004, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by ForgedSpeed
It is not like in football where you wear pounds of protective gear

People do wear lighter pads in football like WRs. U know the WR from the Broncos the white one.... he wears really small pads because he will be quicker etc.



EDIT: Forgot his name he might have retired....lol

Brophog
02-06-2004, 06:16 PM
It all comes down to marketing and product improvement.

Manufacturers need to distinguish their markers from other manufacturers markers and from last years marker. Most marker manufacturers can't make much money unless you keep buying markers, and to do that they need to make new markers often, regardless of how small the improvements might be.

Two of the easist ways of distinguishing markers is by weight and by speed. They're simple numbers that are easy to market. If WDP shaves 5 grams off of this years marker from last years, they can market it is the lightest marker, and people will buy it. If they can squeeze out 1 BPS, then people will buy it.

Hence, the same reason for all the weight/bps threads. People are justifying why they have marker X vs marker Y.

f3rr3+
02-06-2004, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by ForgedSpeed


I understand this, in the same way that people want 50 more shots per tank, 2 more bps, ect.

The reason why I posted this topic and asked was because it seemed to me, a person that has read paintball forums daily for 2 years, that in the past couple months weight have become the biggest issue, maybe this is because of the ULE thing, but it appears to be the same trend over at pbnation.com for example.

Anyway, thanks guys.

its because thats the only thing that isnt nearly to the peak of perfection, with the speed of guns who can outshoot em? with the efficency now does it make that much difference? and now its about comfort/weight and cosmetics.

badinfo
02-06-2004, 07:03 PM
Well, in the army i carried 50-60 pounds of gear. 15 years or more of reenacting I toted 12 pound muskets along o the other junk on my back. All paintguns seem light to me :D
My AT4 runs about 5 pounds, I like the weight. Feels solid, anything lighter would feel toylike to me. Of course I dont do speedball with it ;)

Fixion
02-06-2004, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by RoadDawg
Lighter markers = longer play w/o the fatigue on your arm. I used to not complain about the weight of mags (pre ULE) but it wasn't til I started going ULE that I realized how much easier it is to carry and run with a lighter mag (2.6lb roughly) then say a 5.5lb mag. Less weight means less drag. By the way do you think a couple pounds isn't much look into auto racing. The lighter the vehicle the faster the take off speed. A couple pounds can make a small difference. Especially in a long day of playing.

I don't have any problem carrying my heavy gun (cocer with giant 114 tank) all day. My arm doesn't get tired. So I don't care much about the weight of my marker. But then again, I'm not a small guy. :)

Digits
02-06-2004, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by mark_426


I would assume that he means speed in bringing the gun up...and the superman dive would definetally be harder, can you lay down on a bench (since you apparantly work out so much, and flame us for not) and with your arm(s) outstreched, hold a 15 pound weight as long or comfortably as a 5 or 10? Can you stand and hold a 10 or 15 up in front of you as easily as a 5 or 7.5?

I concur.. And i've strapped 5lb weightes to make ankles.. And you can easilly tell a difference, harder to jump, walk, everything.. So to the guy that said strap 1 pound.. It would make you run slower and such, not ALOT slower, but you would still be slower

Mag_SEAL-6
02-07-2004, 12:56 AM
would assume, not 100% sure on it though, but when you lighten all the parts on the inside (delron, lx bolt, etc), there isn't as much weight moving around, and voila, a proportional(less weight on outside) amount of recoil.

Not necessarily. Recoil is caused by the blowback (the air ricocheting of of the paintball). The air expands and rises. Your hand just acts as a pivot point, therefore slightly lifting the front of your gun.

felony
02-07-2004, 01:00 AM
wowha..

how much can we shave off an mag goin all ULE?

did i read 3 pounds somewhere? 5.5 lbs to 2.6?

I may be missing something but

body, rail, batt pack, frame.. just under a pound reduced off of each.,

I must be missing something or maybe you were comparing a mech to emag..

dan

Sir_Brass
02-07-2004, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by shartley

LOL Come to the CPPA Gathering and you can borrow it. And I CAN guarantee I will see her again. ;) You coming?

Most likely, if I have a job for the summer, I will.

Oh, and of course you knew I was kidding about not giving back the stroker. I wouldn't be able to let myself steal it ;).

breg
02-07-2004, 01:57 AM
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I prefer heavier guns to lighter ones. I held a Dye Ultra Light Cocker once and felt like I was going to break it. How did that go... "Heavy is good, is sign of reliability. If it does not work, you could always hit him with it." Sorry, I just like the quote. Personally, if 1.3 lbs. makes that much of a difference in your game, then you need do get a little stronger.
In all honesty, I truly believe that the obsession with the weight of a paintball gun is directly related to marketing. If company X uses weight for a marketing point, then company Y has to show that thiers is not only lower pressure, faster, but lighter as well. Then we, as the consumers, naturally assume the lighter means better. Then after a couple of years, wieght becomes such a factor in marker preformance, that no one will look favorably at a marker if it does not weigh as little as possible.
The funny thing is that I've found that a heavier marker is better for me on the field than a lighter gun. I've actually managed to use the inertia of the gun to get it to go into the desiered firing position quicker and with less effort on my part.

Just my thoughts,

Breg

SpecialBlend2786
02-07-2004, 04:14 AM
Originally posted by logamus
im not going to make up a pretty excuse, i like light guns because im too lazy to work out.


i also like cookies.

hahaha, sounds about right.

No sKiLLz
02-07-2004, 05:49 AM
Recoil will always be an issue for lighter markers. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, so more weight and proper leverage will reduce the amount of force needed to keep the muzzle steady.

But snapshooting and run/dive off the break is certainly easier with a lighter marker. Also something that hasn't been brought up is that a lightweight marker usually has a slimmer profile and doesn't obscure your field of vision as much when you peer around the bunker.

shartley
02-07-2004, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by Sir_Brass
Most likely, if I have a job for the summer, I will.

Oh, and of course you knew I was kidding about not giving back the stroker. I wouldn't be able to let myself steal it ;).
Fantastic! We just did some finance figuring the other day and it looks more and more like I am locked in for that event. I now need to decide if I will come with a full booth or not. :)

Originally posted by breg
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I prefer heavier guns to lighter ones. I held a Dye Ultra Light Cocker once and felt like I was going to break it. How did that go... "Heavy is good, is sign of reliability. If it does not work, you could always hit him with it." Sorry, I just like the quote. Personally, if 1.3 lbs. makes that much of a difference in your game, then you need do get a little stronger.
In all honesty, I truly believe that the obsession with the weight of a paintball gun is directly related to marketing. If company X uses weight for a marketing point, then company Y has to show that thiers is not only lower pressure, faster, but lighter as well. Then we, as the consumers, naturally assume the lighter means better. Then after a couple of years, wieght becomes such a factor in marker preformance, that no one will look favorably at a marker if it does not weigh as little as possible.
The funny thing is that I've found that a heavier marker is better for me on the field than a lighter gun. I've actually managed to use the inertia of the gun to get it to go into the desiered firing position quicker and with less effort on my part.

Just my thoughts,

Breg
You are not alone. I too prefer heavier markers.

Garrum
02-07-2004, 02:07 PM
Lighter guns are all fine and dandy, if that is your thing. They can make it a little easier on you at the end of a day. But I think a lot of people that have trouble handling guns, ie; snap shooting, raising the gun quickly, changing targets quickly, have this problem because the trigger grip and the foregrip are too close together. It takes a little more effort to raise and move a gun when both of your hands are an inch apart on the back end of the gun. And it's harder to start and stop the gun when they are that close. Move your front hand out about six inches and you have much more control over the gun.

And as far as paintball guns 'kicking', I have shot light .22 rifles that recoil more than any paintball gun I've ever dealt with. Actually hold onto the gun, instead of just laying it on your arm, and that level of pseudo-recoil is not an issue anymore. And if you are holding onto the gun and it still bounces all over the place, throw the gun down and run to the nearest hospital, because you are either dead, or so wispy and frail that a stray breeze could blow you all the way to Singapore at any time.

TheTramp
02-07-2004, 02:16 PM
One thing that amuses me about the obsession with lightweight markers is the revulsion most paintballers have for true lightweight materials. God forbid you make anything out of carbon fiber or some other non-metal material.

IT'S GOT CHEAP PLASTIC PARTS IS MUST BE CRAP!:eek:

I know we know that the classic Mag frame is a great piece of equipment but do you think AGD even considered for a minute putting out the Intelliframe in carbon fiber? They knew no one would buy it if it were "cheap plastic."

Digits
02-07-2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
One thing that amuses me about the obsession with lightweight markers is the revulsion most paintballers have for true lightweight materials. God forbid you make anything out of carbon fiber or some other non-metal material.

IT'S GOT CHEAP PLASTIC PARTS IS MUST BE CRAP!:eek:

I know we know that the classic Mag frame is a great piece of equipment but do you think AGD even considered for a minute putting out the Intelliframe in carbon fiber? They knew no one would buy it if it were "cheap plastic."

The intelliframe is REALLY light already.. Seriouslly.. That is the lightest frame i've ever held, when it wasn't on my gun and no grips were on it it felt crushable.. I don't think they would save that much weight going carbon fibre..

-=Squid=-
02-07-2004, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Digits


The intelliframe is REALLY light already.. Seriouslly.. That is the lightest frame i've ever held, when it wasn't on my gun and no grips were on it it felt crushable.. I don't think they would save that much weight going carbon fibre.. Well, why not? Its just as strong as aluminum.

Digits
02-07-2004, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Well, why not? Its just as strong as aluminum.

Ya but it looks like crap.. And I bet the max you'd loose in weight would be like 1-2 ounces.. Intelliframes have like no metal in them so they are pretty much as light as they can be..

Not to mention the cost factor.. Who would want to pay more for a mech frame?

felony
02-07-2004, 03:06 PM
in RE to only loosing 1-2 oz..

i believe you may lose up to 3 OZ with the XVavle, and yet everyone wants those. That extra 1-2 oz off the gun will make them do everything faster :rolleyes:

With the ULE hype, people would buy buy buy

dan

Digits
02-07-2004, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by felony
in RE to only loosing 1-2 oz..

i believe you may lose up to 3 OZ with the XVavle, and yet everyone wants those. That extra 1-2 oz off the gun will make them do everything faster :rolleyes:

With the ULE hype, people would buy buy buy

dan

umm.. No.. The x-valve EASILLY, weighs half of the classic valve (i'm holding both right now, and there is no comparision.. The X-valve is WAAAAAY lighter)

Plus the x-valve has a faster recharge rate, so thats a performance issue to

felony
02-07-2004, 04:52 PM
ahh..

I believe it is only a 3oz difference. If not then I guess I am wrong. I know I just read that somewhere.

In RE to it being a performance issue, I thought they were the exact same thing? Maybe I am stupid but I thought the valves were the same except for one being lighter

guess not though

TheTramp
02-07-2004, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Digits


umm.. No.. The x-valve EASILLY, weighs half of the classic valve (i'm holding both right now, and there is no comparision.. The X-valve is WAAAAAY lighter)

Plus the x-valve has a faster recharge rate, so thats a performance issue to

Yes, the X-Valve is much lighter than the Classic and has a MUCH higher re-charge rate but that's not you should compare it to. The compairison is between the X-Valve and the Retro/E-Mag/RT-Pro valve. The recharge rate is exaxcty the same and since the rear of the Retro is already Al you only lose a small amount.

These small changes in weight are what we are talking about. 2-3oz here and 2-3oz there. If it was really that important why not use a material that's just as strong (I'm sure you've seen the picture of the single trigger Mag carbon fiber frame holding up the car) but weighs significantly less?

Here's your answer:

Originally posted by Digits
Ya but it looks like crap.. And I bet the max you'd loose in weight would be like 1-2 ounces..

I'm not going to pay $25 plus shipping to lose a few ounces off my rail but plenty of people do.

The fact that people do pay a lot to lose a few ounces but will not use carbon fiber just shows that it's not all about performance.

nuclear zombie
02-07-2004, 05:39 PM
If I can get a lighter gun with the same performace, and reliability then why not? Most people own an automag because they are minimalistic marker , they don't have crap they don't need and if I don't need more weight then I don't want it.

Also there are at least five gun types that can boast around 31bps,and can get at least 1000 shots off of a 68/45, so what seperates them , size and weight.

mark_426
02-08-2004, 12:36 AM
carbon fiber is lighter and stronger, and to say the least, i'd use it, but its so much more expensive (well, in barrels at least), for example, a stiffi is like 129 or something, and a dye ultralite is like 60-70? why pay twice as much unless its a kit?

if noone uses carbon fiber because it is cheap plastic, whats macro line? how about air tanks, how many people use steel ones? weight doesn't make that much difference for me, if it did, i wouldn't play back, i wouldn't use an egg, i'd have a ule mag with a conquest and stiffi. to a point, i've only got to say, why bother?

also, on x valves versus rt's, I'd take the retro, because I don't like screwing a SS fitting into an aluminum valve, because I'd strip it out after moving hoses around for the umpteenth time. That's one place (for me) where strength overtakes the weight

i dont know if i accomplished anything, i was just in the mountain for 2 hours trying to get an excursion un-stuck, but im done now

tyrion2323
02-08-2004, 12:52 AM
Where can I see this picture of a 'mag trigger holding up a car?

phantomhitman
02-08-2004, 12:55 AM
i jsut seen that pic like 30 minutes ago. it was on 247 paintball forums, but i got the link from here. when i went to 247 forums i didnt like it too much when i seen them bashing mags.

Tyger
02-08-2004, 01:59 AM
A little perspective :

http://www.tyger.us/pubimages/EXC68_1.JPG

This is an EXC-68, AKA "The Chaingun". As you see it here, it weighs in about 9 pounds, plus the weight of paint. It balances nice with a 20 oz. tank tho.

Remove the hopper, and the tank, it's a 6 pound paintgun. I've played with this gun, I've run through the woods with this gun. Yes, it's heavy stuff.

The tubes next to it are 140 pods, placed there for size reference. The mask is a JT Whipper Snapper. Yes, it's been played in too.

So when someone picks up my E-mag and says "Wow, this thing is heavy!" I smile, thank them for their opinion, and figure they wouldn't know what to do with the "Chaingun".

"Old School, New Tricks"

-Tyger

TheTramp
02-08-2004, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by mark_426
also, on x valves versus rt's, I'd take the retro, because I don't like screwing a SS fitting into an aluminum valve, because I'd strip it out after moving hoses around for the umpteenth time. That's one place (for me) where strength overtakes the weight


I agree with almost everything you said but....

The back half of the Retro valve is made out of Aluminum. It's just the front that's Stainless. :D

Cryer
02-08-2004, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp



I agree with almost everything you said but....

The back half of the Retro valve is made out of Aluminum. It's just the front that's Stainless. :D

I thought it was all SS. Just a matte finish on the back half...

mark_426
02-08-2004, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp

The back half of the Retro valve is made out of Aluminum. It's just the front that's Stainless. :D


I know the back half is aluminum, and the part with the air port (the front half) is stainless.

heres a visual:

http://neondawg.com/paintball/uploads/pb020031.jpg

TheTramp
02-08-2004, 04:21 PM
Ah yes...good point.:o