Integrity

[painball]

Has anyone else noticed that the integrity of the paintball community as a whole is very very low?

[tony3]

Welcome to last saturday, we have had about 100 threads on this.

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

and now we have 101

and in every sport there are cheaters

[painball]

:cool: I'm so e-Cool.

[kenndogg]

considering ths sport is made up of mostly teenagers, it doesn't surprise me one bit.

[magking1971]

Originally posted by kenndogg
considering ths sport is made up of mostly teenagers, it doesn't surprise me one bit.
You are right on the money with that one!

[Dryden]

Originally posted by kenndogg
considering ths sport is made up of mostly teenagers, it doesn't surprise me one bit. That may be true, and is probably more apparent through Internet message boards like this one, though from my experience there certainly is no shortage of adults who cheat and are prone to behaving badly too.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by kenndogg
considering ths sport is made up of mostly teenagers, it doesn't surprise me one bit. :rolleyes: Just pretend like I made that face at you and walked away.

[Jonesie]

Originally posted by Dryden
That may be true, and is probably more apparent through Internet message boards like this one, though from my experience there certainly is no shortage of adults who cheat and are prone to behaving badly too.

As someone in the middle (older than teenager, not quite an adult) it holds true on both ends.

[robdamanii]

Age =/= integrity or lack thereof.

Moral values, sportsmanship and honour all determine your integrity. Example is a young kid who knows the game, knows how to be a good sport, and calls himself out after an obvious hit, instead of wiping it.

[JEDI]

We invited a ton of teams to our new indoor. Some pretty big names too (which I won't mention), and by the end of the day, someone had stolen the feild owners gear bag right from his truck... And these weren't teen agers. Just dirtbags.

[GT]

agreed!

Although alot and I mean almost all of this could be cured by having good refs, not local punk kids reffing for paint. Most of these folks, adults and kiddos, dont act like this but at the feild.

Set a stardard guys and stick to it with everyone!

[kenndogg]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
:rolleyes: Just pretend like I made that face at you and walked away.

so your saying it doesn't happen? take a good look at what the pros do on the field and kids want to emulate that. I seen threads on how to cheat and ppl saying nothing is wrong with that. Lets face it when your young you tend to do stupid stuff. Hopefully they grow out of it, but some don't. I'm not saying all teens do it but alot do. As for the adults, they are even more pathetic.

[RoadDawg]

Ya the integrity is low. We can't change that though as cheaters feel they are gaining something. I for one am proud to play with some of the most honorable and honest people in AO SoCal. Many times we don't have a ref and we know/ and call ourselves out if we are hit.

As for a certain group it isn't fair to blame one side. Just cause a lot of teens play doesn't mean they cheat the most. It happens and it varies in age so to pin it on one is wrong.

[painball]

Pbnation isn't helping with stopping cheaters (or creating them) either. :rolleyes:
http://new.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=243653

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata
and in every sport there are cheaters

Sure, but in no other sport the continuous whining and justification of the cheaters isn't tolerated. :mad:

And at professional levels, serious infractions get you into serious trouble and jepordise your game, possibly even your career.

In paintball, even scum (Salm) that interfere with the game in an unquestionable manner have people who will defend them and they eventually get back into the sport.

[tony3]

What about baseball players clearing there benches and beating the crap out of eachother? Paintball players have got in fights and it wasn't like it was never going to happen. Paintball is probably the most intense game there is, and yes when people fight they do get suspened. Salm got banned from the whole 03 nppl season, I think that was a good punishment. What about layosa? He knocked a person out and got banned from Pan Am tournies. Personally, I think leagues need 1 ref per player, that would solve most cheating problems.

[ramenjames]

Originally posted by kenndogg
considering ths sport is made up of mostly teenagers, it doesn't surprise me one bit.

dude dont pigeon hole teens.....im a teenager and i have never once wiped or cheated in any way or any kind
i love this sport and do everything in my power to be an ambassador and positve represenative of it

[Bolter]

i think you lack integrity in thinking all teenagers are the same, and im 26 by the way.

[trains are bad]

Cheaters suck. The way to get rid of them is make it really not worth it to cheat. Which mean better reffing and way way harsher penalties for cheating. Doesn't hurt me since I don't cheat.

[Sir_Brass]

Too bad cheaters, for they have no honor, no ethics, no morals. if they do it on the field, then I bet they'd do it in their careers if there weren't serious consequences to their actions, and that sickens me.

Honor is extremely important to me. One of my non-biblical mantras is from the movie scarface:

"All I have is my honor and my balls, and I don't bust 'em for nobody."

I'm worthless if no one can take my word at face value b/c I have no honor. I'd rather call out on a bounce than keep playing on b/c the hit was unobvious.

The game eventually ends, and the prize $$ is eventually spent and no more, but the memories remain. Dishonor is a taint that is hard to get rid of, while the badge of honor is a strong memory, but not as strong as the memory of dishonor. Show yourself as dishonorable, and you'll spend the rest of your pballing days trying to erase that image and never quite succeed.

[tyrion2323]

who is this salm dude?

[Sir_Brass]

the biggest cheater to ever stain paintball.


the morning of a big tourney, he supposedly told his team that he was sick and couldn't play that day, so they got a replacement. during a game, however, one of the opposing team members was in the deadbox and wondering how he was eliminated since he was shot in teh back but hadn't been bunkered or fully flanked. He then turns around and sees in the woods a flash of blonde hair. without a warning, he sprints out of the play zone and tackels salm, who had been hiding in the woods in all black, and had been sniping opposing team members.

salm's team was forced to forfeit their games for that ONE tourney, and salm was kicked off the team and banned ONLY from the NPPL for 2 years. Now he's playing in another league and is team captain for another team. yeah, he got punished alright :rolleyes:

[kenndogg]

Originally posted by ramenjames


dude dont pigeon hole teens.....im a teenager and i have never once wiped or cheated in any way or any kind
i love this sport and do everything in my power to be an ambassador and positve represenative of it

well lets see here, what group makes up the majority of the paintball community? hmm...thats right teens. When you have a high number of a certain group(in this case teens) chances are those involved in incidents would be in that group. So statistically my comments were correct. I could also make a statment that paintball is a white dominate sport since the majority of players are white. Why is that? because statistics shows it.



Originally posted by Bolter

i think you lack integrity in thinking all teenagers are the same, and im 26 by the way.

care to explain why? did I ever say "ALL" teens? Use some common sense before you post please.

[JuggaloDave]

yeah, i do hafta agree with the teens kinda ruin things sometimes, SOOOMETIIMES, cause they tend to get noticed more when they act out. i am not going to say all, alot of the younger ppl on here i am sure stay true to their game, and i respect every last one of you, rather i like you or not, i respect you regaurdless. but it goes with the same reason ppl think all juggalos are poo stirers cause all the 12-16y/o kids calling themselves juggalos are the loudest ones when they start fights, vandalize stuff, and act like idiots, and act a damn fool in public places ppl notice it more then when 2 perfect stangers notice each other sporting a hatchet man belike "whut up ninja?" and then go about they way. now, i have played paintball seince i was 14/15, and played the majority of my teen years, and i am only 18, almost 19(woo woo) and i notice alot more stuff that the younger group of kids out there seem to be doing that looks bad. seems to be a rash of kids with bad attitudes, but it is alot worse with the ppl around 19-21 or a full adult even, going all out at rec ball, and screaming, telling ppl "get the f*** off my feild", so i dont know. i think more ppl just need better morals, young and old alike, there is way to much hate everywhere, from your gun to your dang jersey or tank gaurd. i mean shoot, i think i see more person intergety at a street race, cause at the end ppl usually still check out each others rides and shakes hands at the end.

[Garrum]

Finding integrity in the PB community is a bit like finding your soul-mate. If you look in the high profile locations, such as singles bars and NPPL tourneys, you will most likely be met with severe dissapointment.

The honor muscle has been neglected for a good long while, not just in paintball either. I'm talking about just about everything that has human finger prints on it. It has been replaced with the drive to win at all costs, even your good name.

And even the drive to win has been perverted. It is no longer enough to simply win, Oh no. Now you have to grind your opponent into the dirt, just to prove that you are the baddest Mike Foxtrot around. Do anything you can to try and gain an edge, to include deriding your opponent's equipment before the game, and generally insulting and threatening them to try and throw off their game. Ahhh, to bask in the warm glow of good sportsmanship.

And unfortunately, playing with honor has no real, tangible upside to it. Well, other than being known as the guy/gal who is the straightest dealer in the house. You are, simply put, hamstringing yourself when you go up against those who do not play with honor. If they are playing on unless the ref forces them off the field when hit, and you leave as soon as you are hit, before the ref says anything, then who has an advantage? If they are wiping and you are calling yourself out on heavy splatter, who has the advantage? It is a literal case of 'crime does pay'.

The only real way to combat this, that I see anyway, is something that isn't happening, at least not yet. The cheaters and benders must be ostracized by the PB community as a whole. If Franky Franklin, who plays on team Jiggly Wiggly out of Dolomite, Alaska, is caught wiping/playing on/shooting hot, whatever, then any time he and his team show up for a tourny, everyone else withdraws, unless he is prohibited from playing. If the tourny producers aren't willing to do this, then let team Jiggly Wiggly play against themselves, and win back their entrance fee.

And that is a non-offical solution. If the rule makers would actually crack down of cheaters, and impose actual harsh penalties for cheating, then it would be a much curbed practice. And by harsh, I mean in that in tournaments, for the first offense your team is ejected from the tourny. For the second offense you and your team are banned from the league for 1 year, and are fined $1000, and your name is passed on to all other leagues as a known cheater. For the third offense, you are banned for life, your team is disbanded permanently, and you must walk to your car with no escort. For Rec-play at an established field, first offense, your day is over. Second offense, banned for six months, and your name passed around to other fields. Third offense, banned for life. And honestly, these could actually be tougher. I'm going easy on them.

If we, as the paintball community as a whole, can crush the unsportsman like behavior, then we can proudly proclaim to the public at large, "Do you see the integrity that we display on the field? Can you feel the honor that we play the game by? Can you say the same of your other sports? How can you have anything negative to say about us, when our sport teaches the players that cheating is wrong and is not to be tolorated or excused? When it expels those who display unsportsman like habits?" Will this happen anytime soon? Probably not. It would be nice if I was wrong though.

[trains are bad]

And by harsh, I mean in that in tournaments, for the first offense your team is ejected from the tourny. For the second offense you and your team are banned from the league for 1 year, and are fined $1000, and your name is passed on to all other leagues as a known cheater. For the third offense, you are banned for life, your team is disbanded permanently, and you must walk to your car with no escort. For Rec-play at an established field, first offense, your day is over. Second offense, banned for six months, and your name passed around to other fields. Third offense, banned for life. And honestly, these could actually be tougher. I'm going easy on them.

Word up. Think it's harsh? Don't cheat. Hence the point.


Another thing if paintball gets big is they need more cameras. On Tv they can replay a call in baseball in slow motion over.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by trains are bad
Another thing if paintball gets big is they need more cameras.

I always wondered if this couldn't be accomplished fairly easily.

Allow for video evidence to be presented to head/ultimate refs during a given time frame after each match. Have specific cheating/penalties that can be assesed and specific after game penalties.

Then every team may just have a "video guy" on the roster. The finals would risk having several cameras on EACH player as all the teams that were beaten by each of the competing teams might have a grudge to settle.

Of course you'd need some kind of penalty/control to limit the number of spurious claims.

[GT]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
then every team may just have a "video guy" on the roster.

uhhh no,
we need unbiased reffing, which this is not.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by gtrsi
uhhh no,
we need unbiased reffing, which this is not.

But it would be completely unbiased. The tape would have to reviewed by an official before any penalty was asessed.

Unless of course someone comes to the field with a CGI video editing suite....:p

[SlartyBartFast]

Another enforcement idea I had really ties into the "Integrity" theme.

How about fining teams who are caught cheating at an event afterwards? Lots of people have said that they've seen evident cheating in nearly all the DVDs/Videos produced of major tournaments.

In all the Major Leagu sports, the commisioner can levy a fine on a player or team for "conduct unbecoming" or rule infractions that can't be or weren't dealt with during the game or even player or team conduct outside a game.

Do the same with paintball. If a team cheats during an event, whether they win or not, fine them for any and all incidents for with evidence surfaces after the event.

After all, the vidoes damage the integrity and reputation of the event/series.

Enforcing the fines could be simple. If the team (or even members of the team) want to participat in other events by the same organisation, they have to pay-up.

[Dryden]

Hmm, does anyone think that integrity and sportsmanship might be different today because of the purses associated with major tournaments?

Let me phrase it this way ...

My teammates and I have been playing paintball for well over ten years now. We began playing in high school, about '90 or '91, and of course, had to play outlaw since there weren't many facilities available back then. Speedball was just something we looked at in pages of APG or PSI, Airball/Xball wasn't being done - or if it was, few people knew of it.

Back then, you played mostly amongst your closest friends, and you played on the honor system. Without refs you had to play fair, otherwise the game just didn't work. Cheaters were dealt with inside the group, and the worst offenders were simply not ever invited back to play.

To add to this, most people (young and old) knew of the importance of the 'image' of the sport. You didn't use the marker for acts of vandalism - not just out of common sense, but because there was a very serious threat of paintball being litigated out of existence in the early days.

Most people who played were tinkerers and wannabe airsmiths ... probably all AutoCocker owners today ;)

Contrast with today.

Instead of getting started with a Splatmaster or a sub $75 second hand marker, people go straight for the $600+ e-markers, because the magazines tell them that ROF is king, and if it says Dye on it, you'll be a better player.

Instead of hitting the GI surplus store for $40 in old cammies, there is the $300 JT outfit with matching shoes, gloves, and overnight bag.

Forget the $25 Whipper Snappers ... a modest goggle system will set you back $75 - $175 after fans, reflective mirror lenses, and Motorola Talk-About.

Most players today have a budget well into the thousands of dollars dedicated to their paintball hobby, and that's just the entry level. After investing that kind of cash, while I don't think it's justifiable, I can at least empathize with why a person might decide to wipe their first hit when they've been eliminated 30 seconds into a game. For many, they just want to get their monies worth.

Owww man, my backup marker cost me $1200, and I didn't even get to pull the trigger on THIS one yet!

Now, add to this the change in what draws people into the sport. Ten years ago, it was, "Hey, my buddies and I play this game called paintball every other weekend, it's a lot of fun. Wanna play?"

Today, the conversation probably goes more like, "Man, last week we played in this tournament, it was cool. We only finished in fourth place, but at least that was good for free Halos! You want to join our team?"

The sport has fundamentally changed in the past five or six years. Money corrupts.

Yes, I recognize that big money tournaments were being run ten and even fifteen years ago. But those looked like a local Bowling League compared to the tournaments of today.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't think this problem descriminates between age or gender, though since mostly young male teens are taking up the sport, it just seems more apparent in that demographic.

[RoadDawg]

Originally posted by JuggaloDave
yeah, i do hafta agree with the teens kinda ruin things sometimes, SOOOMETIIMES, cause they tend to get noticed more when they act out. i am not going to say all, alot of the younger ppl on here i am sure stay true to their game, and i respect every last one of you, rather i like you or not, i respect you regaurdless. but it goes with the same reason ppl think all juggalos are poo stirers cause all the 12-16y/o kids calling themselves juggalos are the loudest ones when they start fights, vandalize stuff, and act like idiots, and act a damn fool in public places ppl notice it more then when 2 perfect stangers notice each other sporting a hatchet man belike "whut up ninja?" and then go about they way. now, i have played paintball seince i was 14/15, and played the majority of my teen years, and i am only 18, almost 19(woo woo) and i notice alot more stuff that the younger group of kids out there seem to be doing that looks bad. seems to be a rash of kids with bad attitudes, but it is alot worse with the ppl around 19-21 or a full adult even, going all out at rec ball, and screaming, telling ppl "get the f*** off my feild", so i dont know. i think more ppl just need better morals, young and old alike, there is way to much hate everywhere, from your gun to your dang jersey or tank gaurd. i mean shoot, i think i see more person intergety at a street race, cause at the end ppl usually still check out each others rides and shakes hands at the end.

What up ninja! I know exactly what you feel cause I myself have been a juggalo for many years. I went through JrHigh and H.S being called various names because of a band I like. Now being 22 on my way to 23 people could care less. In fact I get more comments on my jersey then anything (Psychopathic BMX jersey). Back to the point.

Just cause one group dominates a sport doesn't necessarily mean they are the cheaters. In fact you say the sport is mostly white I wanna see those stats. Cause out here in SoCal the "Asian" decents are out in force. Get stats before you blame. No one group is more into cheating then the next. I've seen adults do it and I've seen kids do it. It's even steven if ya ask me. Just plain and simply we need to start being hard or cheaters and giving them punishments that aren't easily taken care of especially in a tourny scene. A ban of a season for wiping sounds good but for stuff like Salm then we need to be tougher. Just my 2 cents.

[Garrum]

You may be on to something Dryden. If there were no prizes and no money up for grabs, the incentive to cheat would be diminished, at least some. Have the products up for a raffle type contest, separate from the game. And just don't award money as a prize. Then the only thing at stake is your honor, and to be able to say that you won that one. More people will sell their honor for a $20000 check, than will for a Halo B, or an E-blade cocker.

And as far as trying to use the expense their $2500 gun and other gear to justify their cheating, that may be part of it as well. It seems that as the price of the gun goes up, the level of vanity increases exponentially. Sort of a "I paid X dollars for my gun. I deserve to still be in the game." Other than crushing cheaters under our collective boot, I don't see a way to stop that.

[trains are bad]

We have the same sig. Preach it brother!

[xmetal2001]

Originally posted by kenndogg
considering ths sport is made up of mostly teenagers, it doesn't surprise me one bit.

You obviously don't play at my local fields. Here, I see quite the opposite. As a ref, I dread reffing a group of adults, because they all think they know everything. Its the teenagers who actually realize they havent done everything.

[Garrum]

I think we can agree that teenagers and young ex-teenagers, as in 20-25, generally think that they can do no wrong. I am speaking from experience here. There are exceptions of course, but generally, they are arrogant, self centered, and vindictive.

This stems from the maturity level of the player. An immature 40 year old is going to be as bad or worse than an immature 18 year old. That said, a mature 40 year old might be even more fun to be around than a mature 18 year old, due to the amount of experience, both life experience and game experience, that they will have to draw on and share with you.

[kenndogg]

Originally posted by xmetal2001


You obviously don't play at my local fields. Here, I see quite the opposite. As a ref, I dread reffing a group of adults, because they all think they know everything. Its the teenagers who actually realize they havent done everything.
nope can't say I have, the only ppl from my field that has attitudes are those within the age group of 15-19. Are all of them bad apples? Certainly not but they do make up the majority of the bad apples.



Garrum

I think we can agree that teenagers and young ex-teenagers, as in 20-25, generally think that they can do no wrong. I am speaking from experience here. There are exceptions of course, but generally, they are arrogant, self centered, and vindictive.
I agree.