What is your favorite Legal & Illegal cheating technique?

[Tyger]

Now you clicked it. You're in trouble now.

But this is an extention to the last mega post (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=124257), but I'll keep this shorter. See, I'm noticing that players are REEALLY enjoying pushing hte rules up to, ten beyond, the breaking point. So, I figured I'd open a thread SPECIFICALLY to talk about that.

Now what I'm talking about are the "Legal" cheats, and the ones that are blatantly "Illegal". And I use "Favorite" with tongue deeply imbedded in cheek, eyes rolling to the heavens, and sarcasm meter off the scale. Please take as such.

Legal : Stuff that isn't against the rules, but is against the spirit and intent of what's in print.

My "favorites" include wearing a jersey specifically to match the fill color of the paint. Wearing a jerey made of MESH to hide hits. Wearing a jersey meant to fit me when you're supposed to be in a size "SMALL". Yeah, there's a lot of ways that clothing can be abused. I'm just thankful that the oversized knee and shin guard has fallen out of fashion.

But I think the most intresting is the "DYE" combo. You get one of the "DYE" undergarments with the padded chest and shoulders, and a DYE jersey with padded shoulders and forearms. I'm impressed that you can get away with it. It just reminds me that the first game of paintball was played with a clothing rule preventing "Excessive padding" like neoprene or FOAM...

I've got more pet peeves, but for now, I'll stick to these.

Illegal : Stuff the rule books say you can not do

Wiping isn't creative, but what I've seen some people do IS. I think the 360 barrel roll / superman slide is still the most impressive wipe ever. Full tilt sprint, he gets hit on the run. He supermans into the bunker, and while skidding he rolls his entire body, pretty much touching every surface along the ground as he did so. That took talent.

I also can 'appreciate' the guy who tries to beat the chrony. I remember one day when this guy had paintball slime in his barrel, loosened the barrel, carried a wrench ON him, AND put hte barrel behind hte chrony by 5 inches! There's a true "winner". Poor bloke had to re-chrony 10 times until I was satisfied he was done.

Share and Enjoy

-Tyger

PS : Thread intent is to get out into the open the stuff we "all" talk about, but nobody has ever really made a stand about. I'd like to see the world know about this stuff, so that we can all change the status quo as it is. That's kinda what AO is about, change the world, one bit at a time...

[badinfo]

LOL Tyger, you up early or just still up?
I dont cheat, but I learned how to shoot and think, and in some cases that can get ya accused of cheating :D

[Tyger]

Still up. Why? :)

Thing is that after this weekend, I'm sick and tired of the "Dirty little secrets" of paintball being swept under the rug. I hate it wehn some kids show up who think they know the "coolest underhanded secret" and try to use it against ME. And why? To win against a guy who's lived thorugh the evolution of the stunt?

Also it's an outlet for the rest of us to vent. It's rather theraputic, really.

Keep in mind I don't play with cheaters, and I've walked away from rec-games because of this fact. I'm mostly venting from this weekend. It really torqued me off. I mean REALLY torqued me off. It's not often I've told a field owner to his face that I would never enter his establishment again, then give an itemised list outlining WHY I would not come back.

It's time we the players took the game back from cheaters and other riff-raff...

-Tyger

[Jonesie]

"Legal"
I've always like the Turtle Wax on the gun, hopper, etc. Pam spray on the clothing - jersey, pants, etc. Rain-Ex on the Mask. All with the intention of making it easier to wipe... Pam is illegal in ANY organized football, why not specifically mention it in the Paintball Rule Books?

Otherwise, I like the running with the hand in front of the goggles, sliding off hits (not really illegal) - I'll explain if someone needs me to...

EDIT: I'm not saying I condone ony of these, just that I fond some of them humorous. I don't use Rain-Ex, TurtleWax or Pam personally. However, if I'm hit on the break, I'm not going to stop mid-run for a paintcheck. If I slide into my bunker and find no paint, I don't consider that cheating.

Later ~ Dave

[shartley]

This is an easy one. I do not cheat. I play the game for more than “winning”, so there is no need to cheat (there is actually NEVER a “need” to cheat, but that is another thread topic.. :D ).

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by Jonesie
Otherwise, I like the running with the hand in front of the goggles, sliding off hits (not really illegal) - I'll explain if someone needs me to...

I can see why running with your hand in front of your face might be considered legally illegal, but I don't see how sliding off a hit could be anything but illegal. I can understand if you're about to do a slide get hit, it's too late to stop so you never do actually know if it broke or not. I don't see how getting hit and then purposefully sliding to remove it is not illegal, same thing as if you wiped the hit.


Originally posted by Jonesie
EDIT: I'm not saying I condone ony of these, just that I fond some of them humorous. I don't use Rain-Ex, TurtleWax or Pam personally. However, if I'm hit on the break, I'm not going to stop mid-run for a paintcheck. If I slide into my bunker and find no paint, I don't consider that cheating.

Actually, I believe the rules allow you to get to your bunker before calling for a paintcheck. Now if you know it hit and are sliding to hope it's wiped away, then you're cheating (or attempting to). If what I said above about not really knowing if it broke or not as you're sliding, then I agree.

[Zumina]

Legal - Trigger "bounce". It's too gray of a term to enforce anyway.

Illegal - Overshooting. 1 for 1s suck, especially when you caught the guy off-guard/from behind. You need to let them know they've been eliminated.

[bryceeden]

I use pam on my pants(raven havok), but its so I can slide farther not so I can wipe.

My favorite illegal is trying to wipe a gogle shot by smearing your mask in the bunker, I have never done it, but I imagine it would severly impead your vision.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by Jonesie
"Legal"
I've always like the Turtle Wax on the gun, hopper, etc. Pam spray on the clothing - jersey, pants, etc. Rain-Ex on the Mask. All with the intention of making it easier to wipe... Pam is illegal in ANY organized football, why not specifically mention it in the Paintball Rule Books?

Otherwise, I like the running with the hand in front of the goggles, sliding off hits (not really illegal) - I'll explain if someone needs me to...

EDIT: I'm not saying I condone ony of these, just that I fond some of them humorous. I don't use Rain-Ex, TurtleWax or Pam personally. However, if I'm hit on the break, I'm not going to stop mid-run for a paintcheck. If I slide into my bunker and find no paint, I don't consider that cheating.

Later ~ Dave

Rain-X does have legitimate uses, specifically as an anti-fog solution. I play with glasses under my goggles and I sweat tons so on certain days no amount of fan will stop fogging. Thus I use Rain-X on the glasses. However, I have never heard of anyone using it (or Pam/Turtle Wax) to make wiping easier.

Ogre

[Jeffy-CanCon]

I am most amused/amazed by the cheats that take time to prepare in advance. The hidden extra padding, and Rain-Ex, for example.

I recall a long time ago (10 yrs) reading about a player in a big woodsball tourney who had hidden a change of camo on the field!

A tourney-playing friend shared a few old-school technical cheats with us a couple of years back, too. Drilling a second hole in your Autococker bolt, so you can chrony with one hole, then flip the bolt to play with the larger hole to get more velocity/range. And modifying the Z-lock on the Automag rail so you can push the AIR in to get an extra 10-15fps.

It's good to know this stuff for when you are reffing.

Personally, my favourite pball shirt is the Hawaiian beauty I am wearing in this pic:
http://www.canadiancontingent.com/calendars/events/photos/psbg02/004.jpg

- It is just about impossible to spot paint in that mass of colour, so I tend to call myself out on bouncers, just to be sure.

[CrimsonGhost]

The old Scotch Guard on the clothing trick (akin to the rain x waterproofing thing) Scotch Guard was the stuff though...a hit would run off you like water on a ducks back.

The Double Hopper covers trick is always amusing...take one hopper cover turn it inside out (so the seams are facing out acting like a frame) then put another cover onto it normaly....you have a nice little bounce cushion for your ever exposed loader.

Cutting a small thumb hole into the front of your jersey so when You make a run you pull the jersy out with your finger and make a bounce tent ( the new Evil Jerseys do this as well with the "hand pocket" they have)This worked better when you cut the seams on the sides of the jersey to allow more movement of the material.

Cocker bolt trick (tapping the extra hole in it ) Works on all removable bolt markers Bushys, Defiants , Timmys , Spuders...etc. Ok ..well all bolts that are easy to remove on the field.

[tribalman]

activities i see all the time are the running with the glove up, sliding to remove a hit, and the one that really pisses me of is when the hopper, gun, arm is hit get really close to the bunker so not to wipe it off, but add more paint and it looks like you weren't hit at all.

[abunkerer]

Overshooting is bad. Its funny to watch team players do it to eachother and laugh at eachother, but when some kid with an intimidator lights up a rental that is bad, or bunkering kids...what is the point?

[trains are bad]

running with the glove up,


Could someone please explain this?

[CrimsonGhost]

In theory its supposed to make the ball bounce off the hand /glove rather than the mask.
Ive seen this happen a few times but...most of the time is breaks on your hand anyway.

[Steelrat]

Here is what I think it means. You ever see guys running off the break, and while running they have their hand up in front of their face? They do that so that their hand takes the hit, and they can just wipe it by sliding into their bunker with their palms on the ground.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by CrimsonGhost
Ive seen this happen a few times but...most of the time is breaks on your hand anyway.

But then you grab your gun with your hand and the hit "disappears".;)

Didn't someone publish a list of the cheats for markers?

Many of the cheats for hiding/wipings hits (and the cause of much overshooting) is the inability of refs to call someone out without a 25 cent paint mark.

A rule change and adequately trained refs could make it possible to call people out for bounces and during bunkering moves. Calling people out at such times would then make enforcement of overshooting rules more palatable.

[skirts]

its easier to take a bounce off a padded, gloved hand then it is a on a hard mask...

i personally remove any hard plastic logos on my pants and gloves (paintballs seem to be attracted to the hard spots)

what about the bandana around the next to "pad" the collar bones while still being stylish ;)

peace from NOR-CAL

[Butterfingers]

Sometimes I can Get Away with using my RT at the field...

Then the refs get pissed that I pull out the "Im gonna rape your electro tactics" when they let timmies with a debounce of 1ms play on :rolleyes:

[Tyger]

Well, this isn't to mention stuff that companies manufactured in the past. I remember he "Soft" revvy shells. I mna you could SQUISH them in your hand. You'd get a bounce, but it'd wreck all the paint in the hopper.

I'm also convinced that the reason that they're making clothing the colors they are and out of the fabrics they do is to encourage wiping on slides. Like I said before, wiping is so passe, but a creative slide/wipe is at least impressive.

-Tyger

[ramenjames]

some legal moves (for recball)
turn your marker upside down and dry fire ...in hopes someone will try to rush you ..only to get shot on the rush

wave your swab/squegee in the air abouve the bunker ...in hopes the person will rush...shoot them out on the rush

hole your hands up in the air like your out but dont call yourself out or dont put your plug on condom on and when you get close to a guy shoot him out

[Skoad]

debounce is a big one.

playing until the ref notices the hit.

yelling at ref to paint check other player when you conciously know that you didn't hit them to get some sort of advantage

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

Originally posted by ramenjames


hole your hands up in the air like your out but dont call yourself out or dont put your plug on condom on and when you get close to a guy shoot him out

That is infact illegal.

And the best has to be running hard into a sup-air bunker with a person on the otherside.

[badinfo]

Hehe, looks like you keep hours like I do Tyger, I play in a band so I am up LATE alot.

Ya oughta import that list that TF posted on the PPIG forums over here. I was astounded.

[SyntaxError]

^^ done the "bunker bump" numerous times

*NOTE* I DO NOT CONDONE ANY OF THIS STUFF THAT I'M POSTING, I KNOW IT CUZ I'VE SEEN IT ALL AND BEEN TAUGHT IT ALL***

When you freight train players to sacrifice a guy to get another way up field. Another good one is distracting the refs with retarded calls that get them to the other side of the field so u can get a few more seconds or shots off before you leave.

Gogging refs so they can't see you get lit on a run is nice, so is arguing that you 1 for 1'd if you mess up a run. Wearing 2 sets of elbow/forearm pads is nice, as is taking a hit to the gogs and rubbing the bunker to smear it and make it look like rub.

Putting pods under bunkers pre game is a goodie, and so is the superman slide. Coordinating a ref distraction with an eliminated teammate is a fun one too, it lets you get someone some time to do something shady.

Wearing big jerseys is nice to promote bounces, its even better when the hits get hidden in the folds and you can wipe it without being seen as easily.

I got more but I gotta write a lab,
Peace Out

[krafty]

I've seen my share of people moving behind a ref as they're going for a paint check or to pull a player. Kinda turns them into a moving bunker. This also seems to work when players yell for a ref to check a specific player. As soon as the ref gets to the player others will move on him in hopes the ref will block the view of their movements. As long as the player isn't neutral, it's legal... but darn dirty pool!

[tony3]

I did that once at pbshooters Andy and a ref yelled at me:(

Whenever I ran I put my arm infront of my mask, just because my jersey is padded and it will most likely bounce off it, and if it doesnt nothing a superman slide can't fix;)

My other trick is if I get a side hopper hit, keep playing but rub my hopper into the part of the bunker with lots of paint so it looks like the paint just came from the bunker.

My one fault that I always do and I'm going to get called for wiping one day is I always get paint on the front of my barrel from moving bunkers and I don't want the paint dripping into the my barrel so I wipe it all off, it looks exactly like I'm wiping a hit.

[Jonesie]

Originally posted by FallNAngel


I can see why running with your hand in front of your face might be considered legally illegal, but I don't see how sliding off a hit could be anything but illegal. I can understand if you're about to do a slide get hit, it's too late to stop so you never do actually know if it broke or not. I don't see how getting hit and then purposefully sliding to remove it is not illegal, same thing as if you wiped the hit.

OK, allow me to clarify. I play front, so 99% of the games I play, I have to slide into my bunker. On top of that, over 90% of the time I take paint on the break, they bounce.

I don't slide to wipe a hit, I slide to make the bunker. If I were to get gogged, I wouldn't even bother sliding, I'd just keep running to the dead-box.

I don't cheat, it's not worth it. I don't want to be seen as that kind of player, period. If you ask anyone that I have played with or against, you'd hear'em all say that I'm a straight-up kind of player.

[punkncat]

Originally posted by Jeffy-CanCon

Personally, my favourite pball shirt is the Hawaiian beauty I am wearing in this pic:
http://www.canadiancontingent.com/calendars/events/photos/psbg02/004.jpg

- It is just about impossible to spot paint in that mass of colour, so I tend to call myself out on bouncers, just to be sure.

Me and several of my teammates also wear Hawaiian shirts to woodsball scenarios.
It REALLY throws people off when we walk right up on them in a shirt that SCREAMS for attention, and they never saw us.
Any 24hour game we go to , the second day is always Hawaiian shirt day.We have never lost a day when wearing them.

[TheDoveDecends]

Personally.. i try to never cheat. I try to keep the game as honest as possible.. because really, honesty is what the game is run on. Now if I dont feel it , such as on pack, theres nothing I can do about it.. and i hate it when people start yelling at me because "you can feel a pack hit!"

Now If i KNOW someone wiped.. and turns out they hit me.. i may wipe it if I feel the need they need a little lesson.. such as a bunkering with a few bonus balls :)

[Off Center]

As far as padding goes, I remember the first time I played, about 8 years ago. One gentleman came out of the bathroom and his buddy noticed that he had a wetsuit top on underneath his shirt. Everyone laughed at him and called him a puss. I was probably about 12 years old at the time and was proud to not be wearing padding that encouraged bounces. I still am.

I'd like to see a little more of that kind of socially enforced 'rule'. People are less likely to do something if they think othere people will laugh at them because of it than if it's merely against the rules. Next time you see someone with bounce-inducing padding, call 'em a puss and ask 'em if their scared a gettin' hit.

[Wierd-Guy]

My favorite borderline rule is insane trigger bounce. I love shooting a gun that I can shoot fast so I can load as I shoot.

I'm not sure if this is illigal but, if I'm playing a back bunker and I'm looking one way, then I feel tugs on my other side. I'd don't check them, I leave that for the refs. I tuck into the bunker and watch my zone, is that wrong? In the rules it says your not out until a ref pulls you but still...

[minimag187]

I just love it when Greenspan keeps yanking his arm away from the ref to get a couple shots off.

[tyrion2323]

I don't cheat, and I don't appreciate any forms of cheating. There are certainly some tricky moves, but cheaters are just 2nd hand players.

[tribalman]

Originally posted by minimag187
I just love it when Greenspan keeps yanking his arm away from the ref to get a couple shots off.

lol, u can't be out if the ref can't pull the arm band!
if i ever see that, it'll be funny. especially when the person is bonus balled a pod.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

Originally posted by tribalman


lol, u can't be out if the ref can't pull the arm band!
if i ever see that, it'll be funny. especially when the person is bonus balled a pod.

I guess the only for of legal cheating I do, or used to do, is when im "in the zone" during a tourney. ( you know what I mean) I wont take time to check hits that are hard to see. I just keep playing and let the refs do there job. Most of the time its bouncers any way.

In rec ball, i always take time to check and call myself out. Partially because its just recball and partially because Im usually DEAD tired. lol and that ice cold gatorade in my truck always sounds good.

[Brophog]

Originally posted by Wierd-Guy
I'm not sure if this is illigal but, if I'm playing a back bunker and I'm looking one way, then I feel tugs on my other side. I'd don't check them, I leave that for the refs. I tuck into the bunker and watch my zone, is that wrong? In the rules it says your not out until a ref pulls you but still...

According to the NPPL ruleset, I would have to say yes.

Rule 10.01. Obvious hits are those which impact and break on easily observable places on the body or
equipment being carried or those that have been felt by the player

Rule 10.04. Players, who are hit in obvious locations, which are easily verifiable, by such players may not
call for a paint check. Calling for a paint check under such circumstances constitutes continuing play.

Rule 10.06. Players with obvious hits in areas which are not easily verifiable, such as the back, may continue
to play, but must immediately call on a teammate who can easily verify whether or not the paintball
broke to indicate whether or not such player was eliminated. The teammate must respond immediately,
and if the hit player was eliminated, he must cease play, signal his elimination and exit the field pursuant
to the provisions of this Section 10.0. Failure to call on such teammate for verification or failure of such
teammate to respond immediately constitutes playing on by the hit player. If no such teammate is
available for verification, such player may continue to play, but must immediately call for a paint check
by a field judge. Failure to call for such a paint check immediately will constitute playing on by such
player.

Rule 10.13. Should a player with an unobvious hit become aware, through his own actions or through
information provided by teammates, that he has been validly marked, such hit at such time shall then be
deemed to constitute and shall constitute an obvious hit.

While I agree that most of these rules are not enforced, this is from the NPPL 2003 rules, and I would clearly think that you cheated through your actions. On a side note, I see absolutely nothing in the rules about:
In the rules it says your not out until a ref pulls you but still...

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Jonesie
On top of that, over 90% of the time I take paint on the break, they bounce.

And that's why honesty and integrity in paintball sucks and airsoft will never take off.

If you take hits 90% of the time on the break, 90% of the time you should never reach your first bunker. By the rules you have the obligation to call paintcheck, stop and check for a break. Calling paintcheck is supposed to make you neutral.

But, the interity, honesty and honor of tournament ball is virtually zero and the credo is 'keep going till they yank me'.

May as well just all stand on opposite ends of an open field and fire until one team is eliminated by breaks. Or perhaps even more fitting, just make it first team to flinch or run out of paint wins.

Because the attitude above shows that luck is far more important than skill or sportsmanship. Bounce or not, if you were hit off the break, your skills suck, you were beat, your opponnent is a better (maybe luckier) shot, and deserves to get an elimination.

The fact tournament instict is to continue and hope a legit hit disappears shows that the players are devoid of any concept of sportsmanship or honour.

The fact that such tactics and the teaching and practicing of such tactics is tolerated and virtually encouraged by opinion and lax enforcement shows the Sport is devoid of and uninterested in sportsmanship and honour.

[Garrum]

I read you loud and clear, SlartyBart. I can't really add anything to it, other than agree with you.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
And that's why honesty and integrity in paintball sucks and airsoft will never take off.

Because 90% of the hits he takes off the break bounce, that means he's dishonest and has no integrity? I'm not quite following you here...


Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
If you take hits 90% of the time on the break, 90% of the time you should never reach your first bunker. By the rules you have the obligation to call paintcheck, stop and check for a break. Calling paintcheck is supposed to make you neutral.

If 90% of the time he takes hits off the break are bounces, then he shouldn't be making it to his bunker 10% of the time. Also, the ref can decide whether to call you neutral or not, I'm pretty sure just calling for a paintcheck does not make you neutral.


Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
Because the attitude above shows that luck is far more important than skill or sportsmanship. Bounce or not, if you were hit off the break, your skills suck, you were beat, your opponnent is a better (maybe luckier) shot, and deserves to get an elimination.

Bounces don't get eliminations, breaks do. There's nothing wrong with continuing to play if a shot bounced. If you think just the fact that you were hit (break or not) should score an elinination, then go play airsoft. In paintball, only 1/4+ sized breaks count.

[Dryden]

Years ago, I got suckered out by two players on an opposing team. One hid in a bunker locked and loaded, while the other sat beside him puncturing 12 grams with a quick loader and letting them bleed.

I got my revenge on them a few weeks later by backing the 7oz bottle off my PMI-3, letting it make it's full-auto out-of-air sound, then giving it a quarter twist and laying into 'em in the open field.

[Fred]

My favorite method for cheating is using a pumpgun, which we all know shoots farther, and the next favorite is Aiming, which causes a lot more of my shots to hit my opponents and break... the fact they can't hit me when they're spraying proves that I'm cheating somehow.

:p

---Fred

[Brophog]

Fred, Shhhhh.....

We don't want to give away ALL our secrets....:)

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by FallNAngel
Because 90% of the hits he takes off the break bounce, that means he's dishonest and has no integrity? I'm not quite following you here...

In not immediately checking to see if there was a break, the player is immediately declaring they couldn’t care less if they are eliminated or not. They’re just going to play on regardless.


Originally posted by FallNAngel
If 90% of the time he takes hits off the break are bounces, then he shouldn't be making it to his bunker 10% of the time. Also, the ref can decide whether to call you neutral or not, I'm pretty sure just calling for a paintcheck does not make you neutral.

You’ve got me on the neutrality part. However, read rule 10.05.


2002 Official NPPL Rules/http://www.paintballrefs.com/nppl_rules_2002.html
10.05. Players who are in motion while hit in obvious locations, which are easily verifiable, will immediately turn their motion away from the opposition, and stop.

So as soon as you feel that hit off the break you are required, BY THE RULES, to immediately stop and check. So, every time you are hit off the break, you should turn, move away, and check the hit. Meaning in the admitted case above, 90% of the time you would not reach your bunker and the opposition would get much further up field.

Now, the rules are unclear about what to do about the multiple hits in the back you are likely to suffer as you are stopped..... :eek:

But, if a ref were to watch you and see any bounces, and you failed to stop and check, you are by definition of the rules cheating and playing on.


2002 Official NPPL Rules/http://www.paintballrefs.com/nppl_rules_2002.html
10.06. Players with obvious hits in areas which are not easily verifiable, such as the back, may continue to play, but must immediately call on a teammate who can easily verify whether or not the paintball broke to indicate whether or not such player was eliminated. The teammate must respond immediately, and if the hit player was eliminated, he must cease play, signal his elimination and exit the field pursuant to the provisions of this Section 10.0. Failure to call on such teammate for verification or failure of such teammate to respond immediately constitutes playing on by the hit player. If no such teammate is available for verification, such player may continue to play, but must immediately call for a paintcheck by a field judge. Failure to call for such a paintcheck immediately will constitute playing on by such player.

That quote is for all those that wait for the refs to call them out. Even in the case of unobvious hit and a bounce you are likely to feel, you can be called for playing on simply for not calling for a paintcheck.


Originally posted by FallNAngel
Bounces don't get eliminations, breaks do. There's nothing wrong with continuing to play if a shot bounced. If you think just the fact that you were hit (break or not) should score an elinination, then go play airsoft. In paintball, only 1/4+ sized breaks count.

A bounce may not be an elimination, but failure to stop and check a bounce, or to call a paintcheck for difficult to check hits IS playing-on and does/should equate to an elimination (two actually).

Paintball played between two upstanding teams familiar with the rules would be far different (and IMO far more interesting) event than the current ‘who can cheat the most and sling the most paint’ format.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
So as soon as you feel that hit off the break you are required, BY THE RULES, to immediately stop and check. So, in 90% of the time when you are hit off the break, you should turn, move away, and check the hit. Meaning 90% of the you would not reach your bunker and the opposition would get much further up field.

Good, now what constitutes an obvious hit? 10.01 states:


Obvious hits are those which impact and break on easily observable places on the body or equipemtn being carried or those that have been felt by the player. A judge will dtermine whether a player felt a hit by where that paintball impacted his body and whether he reacted upon being hit.

Just because he was hit does NOT mean he is required to stop and check. 10.02 - 10.06 deal with obvious hits which have broken. Just because you're hit with a paintball does not mean you have to stop to check it per


Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
Now, the rules are unclear about what to do about the multiple hits in the back you are likely to suffer as you are stopped..... :eek:

Well, as I said before, you wouldn't turn around and walk away just because you got a bounce. But if you did, those would be counted as an unobvious hit which is covered in 10.06 & 10.1


Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
But, if a ref were to watch you and see any bounces, and you failed to stop and check, you are by definition of the rules cheating and playing on.

Nope. Now if it broke and you continued playing, yes, you're playing on. There is nothing in the rules that I see that says you have to check.


Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
That quote is for all those that wait for the refs to call them out. Even in the case of unobvious hit and a bounce you are likely to feel, you can be called for playing on simply for not calling for a paintcheck.

I don't see where the rules say that you have to check a bounce.


Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
A bounce may not be an elimination, but failure to stop and check a bounce, or to call a paintcheck IS playing-on and does equate to an elimination (two actually).

Actually, it'll be a one-for-one unless it gives the offending player's team an advantage which which case it's a 2 for one.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by FallNAngel

Good, now what constitutes an obvious hit? 10.01 states:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by FallNAngel
[B]Just because he was hit does NOT mean he is required to stop and check. 10.02 - 10.06 deal with obvious hits which have broken. Just because you're hit with a paintball does not mean you have to stop to check it per

Once again, reread 10.05:

10.05. Players who are in motion while hit in obvious locations, which are easily verifiable, will immediately turn their motion away from the opposition, and stop.

Nothing about “Obvious Hits”. It says hit in an obvious location. Granted the interpretation of ‘hit’ as “hit and eliminated” or “hit but not yet determined if a bounce or not” is ambiguous. But the text does seem to consistently use:

“obvious hit”
“unobvious hit”
“hit in obvious location”
“hit in unobvious location”

Personally, as a technical writer by trade, I wouldn’t mind clarifying the rules a little. Except for the places where is says “obvious hit” referring to a break that should have been felt, or an “unobvious hit” which would be on a pack or other hard surface, “hit in obvious location” should probably be replaced by “impact in obvious location” and “hit in unobvious location” with “impact in unobvious location”.

Could make it even clearer by replacing all instances of “Hit” with either “Break” or “Impact”.
“Impact” would be a paintball hitting with or without a break.
“Break” would be a paintball impacting and leaving a quarter sized paint mark.


Originally posted by FallNAngel
Well, as I said before, you wouldn't turn around and walk away just because you got a bounce. But if you did, those would be counted as an unobvious hit which is covered in 10.06 & 10.1

No, not IMEEDIATELY calling for verification of an hit in an obvious location (you felt the impact) but difficult to check (like on the back) is covered in 10.06 and is clearly penalised as playing on. So if you feel an impact, you should immediately either stop and check it yourself, or call on a teammate or referee to check it.

Failure to do either as called for in 10.05 or 10.06 should result in a one-for-one.

Unless you interpret the rules to deliberately use the obfuscation to your advantage.


Originally posted by FallNAngel
Actually, it'll be a one-for-one unless it gives the offending player's team an advantage which which case it's a 2 for one.

Yup. A one-for-one would result in TWO eliminations (or an elimination and a flag hang if insufficient numbers of players are left). As I said. :) The player playing-on and another player chosen by the ref.

[ogre55]

My favorite method for cheating is using a pumpgun, which we all know shoots farther, and the next favorite is Aiming, which causes a lot more of my shots to hit my opponents and break... the fact they can't hit me when they're spraying proves that I'm cheating somehow.

---Fred

Fred, Shhhhh.....

We don't want to give away ALL our secrets....:)

Ok you two, stop teasing the semis

;) :p

Ogre

[Brophog]

Actually it does imply obvious hits. The way the rules are constructed is that sections 10.01 through 10.06 deal with obvious hits, while rules 10.11 through 10.13 deal with unobvious hits.

A technicality, sure, and something that needs to be more clarified.

[theraidenproject]

Let's just be realistic, if you feel a hit on the break, and you stop right there, you're going to get hit a lot more, and one of those WILL break, regardless if the initial hit was a bounce or not. So it's basically suicide. You get to the bunker, then you check. If you're hit you walk off. Whatever though, I play back, so I don't need to worry about it.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Brophog
A technicality, sure, and something that needs to be more clarified.

It's one of those glaring technicalities that should have been delt with a long time ago.

But it does seem obvioud IMO that 10.05, 10.06 are designed to rule on how to deal with determining at what point "hits in obvious locations" become "obvious hits".

But another glaring contradiction to the general behaviour of tournament palyers is the attitude of "I'm in till the ref pulls me" is not supported in the rules.

While poorly written and full badly defined terms, they do clearly point to the obligation of the player to check themselves and call themselves out. Waiting for a ref to do it and/or failing to check if an impact was a bounce or a break, seem to both point to penalties.

The only defensible position supported by the rules is the case of an "unobvious hit" in an "unobvious location". In that case the rules clearly point out that it is not considered to be cause for a penalty until it becomes an "ovious hit" by declaration of a teammate or a ref.

(Now that's a cheat I'd let go under my radar. In a game I would NOT yell to one of my teammates that they are hit on the back of their pack.)

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by theraidenproject
Let's just be realistic, if you feel a hit on the break, and you stop right there, you're going to get hit a lot more, and one of those WILL break, regardless if the initial hit was a bounce or not. So it's basically suicide. You get to the bunker, then you check. If you're hit you walk off. Whatever though, I play back, so I don't need to worry about it.

While it may be realistic, it could easily be written into the rules for some way for a player to exit to check and then re-enter from the flagstation.

But 10.05 does seem to written with this in mind. If you turn, move away from the opponent and stop, it is OBVIOUSLY not a defensive or regular game move. After checking for breaks, the player can reinsert in the game.

Now how they do that with a stream of paint flying at their back, I don't know. :D

If the player only gets eliminated once reaching the bunker, the game has been changed irrevocably since the paintball broke. One team will have been held further back and the other will have advanced further than they are entitled to.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
Personally, as a technical writer by trade, I wouldn?t mind clarifying the rules a little.

I agree. The rules should be clearer on the definition of hit, obvious hit, etc.


Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
No, not IMEEDIATELY calling for verification of an hit in an obvious location (you felt the impact) but difficult to check (like on the back) is covered in 10.06 and is clearly penalised as playing on. So if you feel an impact, you should immediately either stop and check it yourself, or call on a teammate or referee to check it.

You got me there. I was thinking it would be unobvious whether the paint broke or not, and thus fall into the unobvious category. Obvious and unobvious applies to where, not whether it broke.


Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
Yup. A one-for-one would result in TWO eliminations (or an elimination and a flag hang if insufficient numbers of players are left). As I said. :) The player playing-on and another player chosen by the ref.

I had thought you meant two eliminations on the same team, not total, which is why I responded how I did.


Honestly, I think they really need to get someone to rewrite the rules clearer. Some are just too vague to interpret.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by FallNAngel
Honestly, I think they really need to get someone to rewrite the rules clearer. Some are just too vague to interpret.

Looks like we have more points in common than when we started this talk, doesn't it.;)

But I still won't condone tournament players interpretations of the rules.:(

Unfortunately I'd even say it's three strikes:
- Bad Rules :mad:
- Bad refs :mad:
- Bad attitudes :mad:

Now, I will volunteer my services to do a re-write. Regardless it's about time someone did something. The game has evolved A LOT since the rules were written.

Heck, the formatting and numbering of the rules doesn't even make any sense in parts.

As for presentation, it's about time there was a bookmarked PDF and a decent HTML version somewhere.

[Wierd-Guy]

Originally posted by Brophog


According to the NPPL ruleset, I would have to say yes.

Rule 10.01. Obvious hits are those which impact and break on easily observable places on the body or
equipment being carried or those that have been felt by the player

Rule 10.04. Players, who are hit in obvious locations, which are easily verifiable, by such players may not
call for a paint check. Calling for a paint check under such circumstances constitutes continuing play.

Rule 10.06. Players with obvious hits in areas which are not easily verifiable, such as the back, may continue
to play, but must immediately call on a teammate who can easily verify whether or not the paintball
broke to indicate whether or not such player was eliminated. The teammate must respond immediately,
and if the hit player was eliminated, he must cease play, signal his elimination and exit the field pursuant
to the provisions of this Section 10.0. Failure to call on such teammate for verification or failure of such
teammate to respond immediately constitutes playing on by the hit player. If no such teammate is
available for verification, such player may continue to play, but must immediately call for a paint check
by a field judge. Failure to call for such a paint check immediately will constitute playing on by such
player.

Rule 10.13. Should a player with an unobvious hit become aware, through his own actions or through
information provided by teammates, that he has been validly marked, such hit at such time shall then be
deemed to constitute and shall constitute an obvious hit.

While I agree that most of these rules are not enforced, this is from the NPPL 2003 rules, and I would clearly think that you cheated through your actions. On a side note, I see absolutely nothing in the rules about:


Thanks for clearing that up for me but what happens if you call for a paint check and the refs woun't come to you?:eek: It used to happen all the time with me.

[bokraham]

this probably works only with a classic valve. While chronoing hold down the trigger right untill it is time to shoot. when you do shoot do it really quickly. Doing this makes your shots on the field go much faster. so far I have always been caught for this. so far...:rolleyes:

[Brophog]

Weird-Guy,

I don't know. While the spirit of the rules say that you should check yourself, ROF today makes it quite hazardous to your team for you to do so, without being shot again while checking yourself.

To me, if you call for the ref to come over and examine you, and he doesn't, I would think the responsibility would fall towards the ref. According to the rules though, the way they are currently written, it seems that you should check yourself, regardless of how hazardous that may be.

To me, this doesn't seem real possible in a tourney atmosphere though, considering the size of the bunkers, the size of the field, and the amount of paint in the air.

There's definitely room for changes in the rules and/or gameplay.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by bokraham
this probably works only with a classic valve. While chronoing hold down the trigger right untill it is time to shoot. when you do shoot do it really quickly. Doing this makes your shots on the field go much faster. so far I have always been caught for this. so far...:rolleyes:

I thought that was how you were supposed to crono the marker anyway?

[tribalman]

Now, I will volunteer my services to do a re-write. Regardless it's about time someone did something. The game has evolved A LOT since the rules were written.

Heck, the formatting and numbering of the rules doesn't even make any sense in parts.

As for presentation, it's about time there was a bookmarked PDF and a decent HTML version somewhere.
i think this would really help out the sport a lot if there weren't the loopholes there are now. its just a game even if it is a tournament, but it's a lot more fun if you don't have to shoot 10 shots just to make sure 1 of them breaks and the refs see it and call the person out. i'll help out with this, but i don't have a place to post it other than on my comp..

[bokraham]

Originally posted by FallNAngel


I thought that was how you were supposed to crono the marker anyway?

no way. doing that makes it so that your on/off is closed, so that no more air can get in. Doing this makes it so there is not much to fire your shot, making the ball's speed much slower.

[Lohman446]

Not an attempt to cheat, but it was LOL - not complaining about it just found it amusing

So, one tournament it was COLD and raining. Towards the end of the season, and one team signed up for Rookie thought Rookie meant rookie... you all know what I mean on that, this was their first time playing

It comes down to one guy wearing a goose down jacket (cold, he had reason to). I hit him four times on the side, no break. Behind him now just shooting - no pack, and i was trying to take it easy on the guy and not just unload - it finally came to him bolting owarsd the flag and my back player goggign him - but I hit his jacket with several, ro a dozen aimed shots would not break.

[FallNAngel]

That makes absolutely no sense bokraham. In your last post you said to hold the trigger back, then release and pull again quickly. That would cause the shot to fire faster. Now, you're saying it fires slower?! Honestly, I'm not familiar with all of the valves and their differences, but I do know for one of the valves, that *IS* how you're supposed to crono the marker.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Brophog
Weird-Guy,
I don't know. While the spirit of the rules say that you should check yourself, ROF today makes it quite hazardous to your team for you to do so, without being shot again while checking yourself.

I do agree that the rules were initially written during a much more laid back time. Pumps, 10-man teams, acres of woods to play in, long games.

But there’s a spirit to the rules that seems very sportsman like and honourable. You assume the ball did break. Sure checking yourself under intense fire is risky, AND while you check the opposing player may make a move. But YOU WERE HIT. In a fair and perfect world the ball SHOULD have broke and you WOULD be eliminated.

Depends where you put your priorities. Good sport and honour (assume first it broke, until proven otherwise), or who gets pissing rights (assume it bounced, and absolve yourself of responsibility).


Originally posted by Brophog
To me, if you call for the ref to come over and examine you, and he doesn't, I would think the responsibility would fall towards the ref. According to the rules though, the way they are currently written, it seems that you should check yourself, regardless of how hazardous that may be.

Well, it’s your responsibility to call the check on hits in unobvious locations. But, by the rules it’s a teammate that should be first to respond. Not a ref. Your responsibility is to call. If you don’t you’re playing on. If your teammate doesn’t respond when they could, that’s a penalty. If no team member can check you, the ref must. The ref SHOULD also check to see that the teammate wasn’t lying if they call you clean.

But you’re not eliminated until the teammate or ref confirms a break.

But, if the impact is in an obvious location YOU are entirely responsible for checking it and calling yourself.


Originally posted by Brophog
To me, this doesn't seem real possible in a tourney atmosphere though, considering the size of the bunkers, the size of the field, and the amount of paint in the air.

It certainly isn’t easy. Particularly with the poor attitudes and lack of honour amongst tournament players (and paintball players in general, and indeed society as a whole). But those with honour and integrity are bound to at least try. Those that don’t want to make the effort or want to impede ANY changes only confirm their own lack of honour and integrity.

The biggest problem is that as paintball moved to the tight and fast play of airball from the more laid-back woodsball, it was moving towards a format that demanded more honour and integrity to work. Unfortunately the general trend of the players seems to have been in the opposite direction.


Originally posted by Brophog
There's definitely room for changes in the rules and/or gameplay.

Glad you think so. Do you play tournament paintball? At what level? I only ask because the usual response from uptight tournament players is “If you don’t like it, don’t play.”, “You’ll never stop the cheaters, and I’m not cheating if they are too.”, etc . . . See above for what I think of that attitude.

There’s room for change in every activity and sport. Times, technology, desires, all of societies changes need to be pondered and expressed for a rule set to be valid and respected.


Originally posted by tribalman
i think this would really help out the sport a lot if there weren't the loopholes there are now. its just a game even if it is a tournament, but it's a lot more fun if you don't have to shoot 10 shots just to make sure 1 of them breaks and the refs see it and call the person out.

There really aren’t that many loopholes. It really boils down to poor enforcement of the rules and whether players assume paintball bounce and play-on or assume they break and check first.

If you enforced playing-on with undue influence to a front players that arrived at their bunker with a hit (even occasionally) you’d see a quick readjustment of playing style. After all if you arrive with a hit, that means you played on after it broke (therefor the frontplayer and one other team member are eliminated). The frontplayer playing on and arriving at the bunker will have kept the opponents back and allowed his teammates to advance (therefor another teammate should be eliminated).

Apart from the initial histrionics that would be displayed by the eliminated players and losing team (which could be used to show all participants the refs REALLY mean business by penalising them to the maximum for language, behaviour, and arguing with a ref), teams would quickly be on their toes and studying up on the rules.

Side note: The 1 for 1, 2 for 1, 3 for 1, are the DUMBEST rule/penalty names I have ever heard. They are completely un-intuitive and often need explaining. They should more clearly and accurately be named ‘plus one’, ‘plus two’, ‘plus three’.


Originally posted by tribalman
i'll help out with this, but i don't have a place to post it other than on my comp..

Well, my home computer is dead. :( But I did already start reformatting the rules. I’ll start a new thread once I’ve completed them.

[Korrosion]

Originally posted by FallNAngel
That makes absolutely no sense bokraham. In your last post you said to hold the trigger back, then release and pull again quickly. That would cause the shot to fire faster. Now, you're saying it fires slower?! Honestly, I'm not familiar with all of the valves and their differences, but I do know for one of the valves, that *IS* how you're supposed to crono the marker.

RT and retro and x valves are chrono'ed by holding the trigger back. A classic valve should be chronoed like any regular gun.:p Remind me and I'll explain later.

[Brophog]

I agree with most everything you said SlartyBartFast.

The one thing I don't like is that you should not be penalized for playing honorably. If bounces don't count, and the only way for you to check yourself is it expose yourself, or stop firing, then you've been penalized for doing the right thing.

Its not just the rules, its the game structure that penalizes you. Its all about controlling lanes, and if someone has to stop shooting, for any reason, its a detriment to their team.

In a lot of ways, its a byproduct of the entire game. The high rate of fire, small fields, and small bunkers are not condusive to paintchecks, by ref or player. There is absolutely no way a teammate can come over and check you.

[doubletap]

While running to your bunker, shoot it several times and rub where you shot it. Just in case.

[SlartyBartFast]

Seems we’re having a parallel discussion in this thread, doesn’t it. These posts should all have moved to the Integrity thread (but that unfortunately degenerated into age-ism and petty bickering.)


Originally posted by Brophog
The one thing I don't like is that you should not be penalized for playing honorably. If bounces don't count, and the only way for you to check yourself is it expose yourself, or stop firing, then you've been penalized for doing the right thing.

Too true, taken for the view point of: “I got hit! Am I out? Got to check, no break! Damn I wasn’t out.”

But it’s not true taken form the standpoint of: “I got hit! Damn, I’m out? Got to check first, no break! I’m still in! Time to hustle and recover!”

One supposes the burden of proof for the skill or luck of the opponent’s shot lies with the opponent. So you feel cheated when there is no break because you took the burden on yourself and then believe that any advantage gained by the opponent in performing their duty for them is unfair.

The second supposes that the burden of proof is for you to prove you should stay in. That in all fairness, because you felt a hit, you should by all rights be sporting a paint splat and walking off field. Once you have checked yourself and you are clear, you are lucky not to have been eliminated and are ecstatic that you can continue playing. Any advantage gained by your opponent in the meantime is due to your slow response fulfilling your responsibility.

But a lot of the worrying over time lost checking is rather etheral and hypothetical. If you’re running with your hand out off the break you can continue firing and glance at your hand. If you take fire at any where else, it’s the same thing.

The stop, turn, check from the rule book certainly does seem like a bit much.

Enforce a 1 for 2 for a player arriving in a bunker with a hit and you’ll spend those split seconds checking bounces far more regularly.

It’s the same with all the other time that players try to get away with one or two more shots after being eliminated. Enforce the 1 for 2 for playing on and affecting the game or even just the 1 for 1, players would start coming in line fast enough. Takes knowledgeable, active refs with the gumption to use the power they’ve been granted.


Originally posted by Brophog
Its not just the rules, its the game structure that penalizes you. Its all about controlling lanes, and if someone has to stop shooting, for any reason, its a detriment to their team.

As I noted above, the perception of being penalised or rewarded by luck depends wholly on where you apportion and accept responsibilities.

It’s all starting to sound rather Zen isn’t it ...

PS: and sorry to those of whom we're interrupting the creative cheating ideas.;)

[Miscue]

One of the biggest deterrants for me... for getting into the tourny scene is the cheating. I figure it this way: Try hard, play fair, understand that a game could be won or lost because of cheating, and focus on having fun and playing as best as possible - winning is a bonus.

There's just so many ways to circumvent the rules w/o getting caught, that it should be expected... which kinda sucks.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Miscue
One of the biggest deterrents for me... for getting into the tourny scene is the cheating. I figure it this way: Try hard, play fair, understand that a game could be won or lost because of cheating, and focus on having fun and playing as best as possible - winning is a bonus.
A fine attitude. But with the cost of tournament play even at the local level, it’s difficult to write it off as just for fun.
If it’s just a little more than a day’s regular play and the grand prize is a trophy, ribbon, or certificate plus no more than say reimbursement for the tournament fees (and/or free participation in the next to defend your title), then great. I’m completely with you**. But when you have to pay hundreds of dollars and you know that you're helping to pay thousands of dollars to the cheating sons of dung beetles, plus they’re going to get thousands of dollars worth of goodies from sponsors ... :mad:
Well, my Zen calm just can’t make it past that. ;)

Originally posted by Miscue
There's just so many ways to circumvent the rules w/o getting caught, that it should be expected... which kinda sucks.
But there are also so many ways to enforce existing rules to force the cheater to have to be more creative. Or at least penalise cheating so that even if it was only caught once in a hundred times the sanction was so severe that the mere hesitation thinking of whether they’ll get caught either signals the refs or allows an advantage to the opposing team.
And so many of the existing rules, if enforced, would tip the balance in favour of upstanding teams (more “1 for 1” and “2 for 1” calls).

** Although even in rec play the little wankers with the in-your-face attitude get up my nose.:(

[Brophog]

Maybe a little off topic, but it was still a thought provoking conversation on competitive paintball.

[FutureMagOwner]

i have a warp feed on my gz intimidator and a qloader (when it ships to me) on my emag i consider them legal cheatings :D ;) :p