Paintball article in the Chicago Tribune

[Gunga]

This article was in the Tuesday 2/10/04 issue of the Chicago Tribune. Unfortunately, it's about some idiots with paintball guns. However, the article isn't 'paintball is evil'.

Also, there's some info about the local laws in regards to paintball guns, for us Chicago area people.

To save you guys the trouble of creating an account at the Tribune, here's the article:

Paintball Weapons Take a Hit
Lake Forest law now bans guns


February 10, 2004

By Susan Berger
Special to the Tribune
Published February 10, 2004

Frustrated that a local law against air rifles and guns that shoot BBs and pellets didn't include paintball guns, Lake Forest aldermen have banned them after complaints of vandalism.

The action came after unsuccessful attempts to prosecute teens who shot paintballs at children and cars, city officials said.

"Although the teens went through the arrest procedure and day in court, they were given their paintball guns back" because the guns were not included in the law, Lake Forest Police Chief Michael Hosking said.

Amended last month, the ordinance makes it a misdemeanor to use a paintball gun within city limits and carries a fine of up to $750. But Hosking said it's unlikely that police would press charges if paintball guns were used on private property.

"It's one thing when paintball guns are used in a designated range with goggles and proper equipment or in someone's back yard versus being hit unexpectedly," Hosking said. "There is a time and place."

Northbrook and North Aurora have paintball bans, as does Chicago, where the fine for possession or use of a paintball gun is $100 to $500, officials said. A paintball facility in Chicago, where the guns could be legally rented, recently closed, officials said.

Glencoe might consider following Lake Forest's example, said Mikel Milks, Glencoe public safety director.

"It would be worthwhile to review because of the number of forest preserves here and nearby sporting goods sell paintball guns," Milks said. The use of paintball guns "is a trend that is sweeping through, and we need to consider that."

The guns can cost less than $100 and have attracted many people who gather for organized paintball events.

Critics say bans such as the one in Lake Forest are an overreaction to a problem that could be addressed under current laws.

Lake Forest officials "are taking the easy way out rather than deal with the issue," said Brendan Cardy, sporting goods manager at Bess Hardware in Glenview. "They are sticking their fingers in their ears and hoping it goes away rather than dealing with it.

"There are plenty of responsible paintball users who don't get in trouble with the police. A few bad apples spoiled the fun for others."

But Kent Baker, a Lake Forest resident whose mailbox in the 500 block of Golf Lane was splattered last summer with red and blue paint from a paintball gun, said he is pleased.

"Shooting paintballs is an easy thing for kids to do," Baker said. "It needs to be restricted to paintball fields."

Police could charge trigger-happy paintball enthusiasts with more serious crimes such as disorderly conduct or criminal damage to property, Hosking said. But it's good to be able to charge teens with a lesser offense, he said.

"We don't want to throw the book at someone by sending them to state court, where they would end up with a record," Hosking said. "That's not appropriate for a minor infraction. We felt amending the ordinance is the best way of dealing with this rather than trying to lump it in with something else."

The chief concern is to prevent injuries, Hosking said.

Emergency room visits related to paintball injuries increased from 1,652 in 1998 to 2,780 in 2000, the most recent year for which data are available, said Cathy Thorsen, consumer information officer for the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission.

Eye injuries increased from 545 to 1,234 during the same period, she said.

"Like anything else, with the proper equipment, I'm sure it's safe," Hosking said. "I don't want residents to incur injuries."

Copyright © 2004, Chicago Tribune

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

Doesn't seem all to outrageous it would be nice however, if they amended that law, to make it legal to shoot on provate property.

[raehl]

I say give them the state record. It's disappointing that law enforcement seems unwilling to treat misuse of paintball markers with the seriousness required. If you're firing a marker somewhere you shouldn't, they *SHOULD* haul you in front of the state court.

- Chris

[shartley]

Seems like people are actually thinking this time. I found the article and opinions stated to be fairly reasonable and balanced overall. It also sounds like there will be more discussions on the matter and I would wager that in the end it will be settled in a manner that is not detrimental to the sport or its players.

[Garrum]

This is the same song I hear about my firearms, just a different tune.

Individual X and individual Y both have item Z. Individual X is reckless and dangerous with item Z, but individual Y is careful and safe. The government says," This person used this item irresponsibly. So the obvious course of action is to ban this item, because as we all know, IT IS NEVER THE PERSON'S FAULT! THE ITEM IS TO BLAME FOR THIS FIASCO!"

The overwhelming desire to offload the blame of an act onto anything, even and espescially inanimate objects, is ruining this country.

[shartley]

Originally posted by raehl
I say give them the state record. It's disappointing that law enforcement seems unwilling to treat misuse of paintball markers with the seriousness required. If you're firing a marker somewhere you shouldn't, they *SHOULD* haul you in front of the state court.

- Chris

I hope when you say “Law Enforcement” that you are not talking about the police, but the system above them. It looked to me like the police did their job and it was the court that didn’t do theirs.

As a former police officer I can state with certainty that many things pinned on “law enforcement” is not the fault of the police, nor do the police agree with what happens.

[penguinpunk555]

I think this is a good article. If used on fields then good. Thats what we realy want guys.

[raehl]

Originally posted by Garrum
IT IS NEVER THE PERSON'S FAULT! THE ITEM IS TO BLAME FOR THIS FIASCO!

Actually, they're both to blame. People can't be shot if there are no guns to shoot them with. The question is, is having the item around worth the negative impact? The biggest non-natural killer of people in this country is automobile accidents. But, nobody would seriously suggest getting rid of cars to keep people from dying.

Is having paintball markers worth a few people losing their eyes each year? When 10 million people play every year, most of us would say 30-60 single eye injuries are worth it, especially when the majority of the injuries are due to people's own stupidity.

Are handguns worth thousands of people getting killed every year... by other people? Gun owners seem to think so, but there are plenty of people who would disagree.


Anyway, real point of this post is that I hate it when people try and pair paintball with guns. One has zilch to do with the other, and it's especially bad for us when pro-gun folks say "This argument is just as dumb for paintball as it is for guns!" because there are *MANY MANY* people out there who think it's a *GOOD* argument to get rid of guns.

That STILL doesn't make it a good argument to get rid of paintball markers, so do us a favor and please don't tell people it's the same argument. It isn't.


- Chris

[raehl]

Originally posted by shartley
I hope when you say “Law Enforcement” that you are not talking about the police, but the system above them.

I'm talking about whoever it is that's breaking the process. Could be the police, could be the DA, whoever. It's not one or the other in all situations.

- Chris

[ubooze]

Its situations like this that make me uneasy. I live in the Northern suburbs of Chicago, between Niles and Glenview which is 'technically' called Glenview Unincorparated. I am glad to hear this kind of law is passed, the people weren't using the guns how they were supposed to be used. But what does frighten me is that other cities may think an all out ban would be the right thing, and that sales would no longer be allowed, and even shooting on private property would be wrong. I know Niles and Morton Grove already have such laws. Its not fun to have to worry your butt off when you shoot in your backyard. I have no clue what law applies to me, supposedly its just general Cook County law.

Law-makers ought to take a good example of this situation. Ensure and enforce that paintball guns are used in the right area, that is, NOT in public. Privatre property or the feild is the only place your gun ought to leave its bag.

[Garrum]

Is having paintball markers worth a few people losing their eyes each year? When 10 million people play every year, most of us would say 30-60 single eye injuries are worth it, especially when the majority of the injuries are due to people's own stupidity.

Are handguns worth thousands of people getting killed every year... by other people? Gun owners seem to think so, but there are plenty of people who would disagree.

Lets see, we have ~30,000 deaths a year from firearms, including suicides, give or take 1000, and between 1.5 and 2.5 million people who use firearms in defense of themselves or others. Now, should we just throw those 1.5 to 2.5 million people to the wolves to save those 30,000?


Anyway, real point of this post is that I hate it when people try and pair paintball with guns. One has zilch to do with the other, and it's especially bad for us when pro-gun folks say "This argument is just as dumb for paintball as it is for guns!" because there are *MANY MANY* people out there who think it's a *GOOD* argument to get rid of guns.

That STILL doesn't make it a good argument to get rid of paintball markers, so do us a favor and please don't tell people it's the same argument. It isn't.

The same argument of 'if they can't get it, they can't use it' is the exact same argument being used in both the case of firearms and paintball guns. Both arguments ignore the positive benefits and uses of the item in question, and both arguments ignore the person's role in any misconduct using the item. Instead of punishing the bad person alone, they ban the item, punishing everyone.

Raehl, maybe I am misreading your post, but you sound like you are one of those 'many many' people who want to ban guns. Just remember, if you sell us out, we WILL sell you out after they ban our guns. We are in the same boat, whether you acknowledge that or not.

[bleachit]

"It's one thing when paintball guns are used in a designated range with goggles and proper equipment or in someone's back yard versus being hit unexpectedly," Hosking said. "There is a time and place."

:) distinguishing between actually play and morons running around. works for me.

[raehl]

Originally posted by Garrum

Raehl, maybe I am misreading your post, but you sound like you are one of those 'many many' people who want to ban guns. Just remember, if you sell us out, we WILL sell you out after they ban our guns. We are in the same boat, whether you acknowledge that or not.

No, I'm one of those people who want zero association between paintball markers and guns. We're not in the same boat at all.

There is zero correlation between sporting equipment that can hurt people when misused (hell, more people are seriously hurt by golf balls than paintball markers) and something that kills 30,000 people per year. IT IS NOT THE SAME THING. The last thing paintball needs is people who are hostile to guns thinking paintball markers should be in that same group.

- Chris

[Garrum]

Do you honestly think that they will stop if they get our firearms? Do you honestly think they will even think twice before banning a toy that looks like a gun, if they are willing to ban a legitimate tool that saves over a million lives a year? To them your paintball GUN is just as evil as my Glock 23 and my Remington 700. It represents combat and fighting. They don't care if it is fun to play paintball and that you handle your paintball gun properly, just like they don't care if I can't defend myself against a criminal trying to kill me. You are in their way of trying to make society what they want. And if we get beaten, then you are simply next in line.

[raehl]

If gun nuts like you stop trying to convince anti-gun nuts like "them" that paintball markers have anything to do with guns, yeah, I'd expect that they'd leave us alone.

- Chris

[Garrum]

We aren't trying to convince them that you use guns. They already know that you use guns. We are trying to convince you that you use guns. Calling your paintball gun a marker does not keep it from being a gun. It has a lock (trigger, sear), stock (the grip), and a barrel. The three base components of a gun. It fires projectiles at high speed, and is capable of causing severe injury and death. A paintball gun may not be a firearm, but it is still a gun.

But go ahead, and keep singing your song, "La la la it's not a gun". But you are on their hit list. Hopefully, we can beat them, and you won't have to lift a finger to save yourself. That is what I hope happens.

[raehl]

I also realize that people who don't like guns are not the same as people who don't like paintball guns. Yes, there are people out there who hate pretty much everything, including guns and paintball markers, but there are also lots of people out there who hate guns but have nothing against paintball guns.

I know it's convenient for you to say that it's all the same people, but it's not true.


- Chris

[tony3]

:o That article wasn't bad, they finally got the difference between stupid people shooting cars and people playing on real fields, not bad.

[ratmasta]

well that solves some problems

[Garrum]

They have nothing against paintball guns because they haven't gotten to them yet. Just like they have nothing against hunting rifles right now. But after they get rid of of those scary looking 'assault rifles' and handguns, guess what becomes the next big threat to the fabric of society? Sniper rifles. Also known as hunting rifles. I can hear the ads now. "They have the ability to kill from 1 mile away!" The public panics and hunting rifles are legislated out of existance.

Then they move on to shotguns. This is an easy one. Wheel out a side of freshly cut beef and proceed to shoot it with 12 ga. 000 buckshot, the same stuff that SWAT teams use in their entry shotguns. It does incredible damage to whatever it hits. Looks terrible. the public takes one look at the bloody mess it leaves on that side of beef, and that is all she wrote.

Then they move on to all of the lesser evils: BB guns, pellet guns, and paintball guns. A few videos showing a mock up of a human head getting shot in the eye by these monstrosities, with the eyes being completely demolished and driven back into the skull, and the public will demand that these 'Devil's playthings' be banned and crucifed. The horror! They were being marketed to children! We must save them!

It is never enough for those who hate freedom. They took our fully automatic guns years ago. They were never used in very many crimes. Didn't matter. But then they had to take our semi automatic rifles because they looked scary, looked like full auto weapons. Again, never used very much in crime. At the same time they took our full capacity magazines, because apparently Cops need more ammunition than us because they operate in groups, and we operate alone. They have been trying, and have been successful in many areas, to take our pistols from us, because only government employees should be able to defend themselves.

Logic does not deter those who hate guns. They hate ALL guns, regardless of flavor or shape. With the exception of the guns used to protect them from the victims of their social reengineering.

Look Raehl, I'm not arguing with you to simply win an argument. I'm trying to get you to see that our paintball guns are not safe unless we paintballers stand with those 'gun-nuts', as you called me. If paintballers just stand by and let bad people take away our tools of self defense, our toys as some might call them, then us 'gun nuts' won't have any incentive to help you save your toys.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore, because you have made your public stance. People rarely change their stance once they are challenged on it, especially in public. But I do ask you to re-read what I have said, this time without the defensive tone. Don't post any responses, just read it again to yourself. Think about it from the point of view of someone who hates anything that involves conflict or strife, someone who has no compunction about twisting reality to outlaw something because they don't like it. And remember that they wield power far beyond their numbers, because they can scare the general population into submission. Scared people tend to do what they are told.

[DWill]

I live right next to North Aurora so I hope that the law isn't picked up by Batavia, but then again I don't play anywhere but at a field.

[raehl]

You're right - they probably won't stop until all guns are gone. That's exactly why I want gun nuts to stop telling people that paintball guns are guns!

It's like your threatening us - if you don't protect guns, we're taking you with us!

*NOT* helping us after (or before) "they" ban guns is exactly what we want!

So, I promise not to get in the way of "them" taking away guns as long as you promise not to try to "help" us, deal?


Antigun nut: "We must ban guns!"
Gun Nut: "If you paintball people don't stop them from banning guns, they'll go after paintball guns too!"
Antigun Nut: "Hey, why are these gun nuts so friendly with these paintball people? We better ban those too!"

The LAST thing we want to do is VALIDATE such ridiculousness by allying ourselves with the gun lobby. We've spent 20 years trying to shake the image that paintball is played by a bunch of gun nuts in the woods. Why would we want to run back to that? Sorry, you're on your own.

- Chris

[Brophog]

Face it, its still a gun.

The only difference between a real firearm, a BB pellet, and a paintball gun is velocity. If I shot a paintball at 3000 fps, it'd be lethal too. If I stuck a lead ball in my paintball marker, and cranked up the velocity, its a gun. It wouldn't be hard to modify a paintball marker to accept a high enough pressure to shoot a solid object at lethal velocities.

This whole idea of getting out of the woods and calling guns 'markers' is ridiculous. Its the same game, with the same equipment. You've just changed woods to brightly colored bunkers, markers from black to pink, and camo to brightly colored jerseys.

Do you really think people are so dumb as to not recognize a sheep when they see one. Don't paint a sheep green and call it a squirrel.

This was not meant to insult you directly, but to drive home the point that its not the equipment you ban, its the people. However, its often easier to ban the equipment. That doesnt end the hate, the crime, or the want to kill by the individuals killing. If they don't have guns, they'll use knives, or swords, or slingshots. People were killing people long before guns came around. People will kill long after guns are banned.

On a side note, I have an uncle in the military over in Germany. As many of you know, they are very much anti-gun over there, to the point that many policemen in Europe don't carry firearms. Guess who does though....yep, the bad guys. Guns are rampant on the black market over there, and more and more criminals are getting a hold of illegal firearms.

[raehl]

Cops in Germany carry guns. Some cops in Germany carry VERY BIG guns. And Germany isn't "anti-gun" - it's *VERY* difficult to own a handgun, that's for sure, but it's not like people run around saying guns are evil. It's just a society where most people don't even want a gun.

And I don't have an uncle who lives in Germany - I lived there myself, for a year.

And I'm not saying paintball shouldn't be played in the woods, or with camou, or any other PC rubbish. I'm saying that it's taken us 20 years to get people who don't play paintball to understand that paintball is not primarily played by MILLITIA GUN NUTS in the woods.

A paintball marker isn't any more of a gun than a nail gun or slingshot. Or BB gun for that matter - which, btw, any adult is allowed to have anywhere in this country.

In fact, despite there being MANY MANY countries with very strict anti-gun laws, there are only two that are similarly harsh on paintball guns: Australia and Germany. Austrialia is LOOSENING its enforcement and laws regarding paintball guns, and Germany it's mainly a big import-stamp hassle and a ban against paintball markers that look too much like real guns.

Fact of the matter is, guns have been "banned" in plenty of places, and paintball guns were *NOT* banned shortly thereafter.


Any gun-lobby propoganda that we need to fight for guns or they'll take away paintball guns is just that - propoganda. Guns in the US are not going away, short of a constitutional amendment. What we don't want to do is make ourselves a target and possible casualty in the anti-gun-nut and gun-nut fight, because while real guns have nice constitutional protections, paintball guns do not. We should NOT be out there LOOKING for a fight just because gun nuts want to co-opt the sport for their gun-nut purposes.


So, might some paintball players REALLY CARE about their ability to own firearms? Sure. Does that mean paintball should fight for firearms? Absolutely not. Fighting for firearms is *NOT* in paintball's best interest. It may be in FIREARM OWNER's best interest, but not ours.


- Chris

[Brophog]

I didn't say cops in Germany, I said there are some in Europe. There is a difference.

I would have said the specific country, but as it is second hand knowledge, I wasn't going to pass it on for any more of a factual basis than what I knew.

[Brophog]

Your getting hostile for no reason here.

There are lots of people who still think we are militia nuts. We need to educate them, not hide things behind PC garbage.

I don't see your connections here. I'm certainly not fighting one way or another for firearms here. I'm not saying we back any kind of firearm policies or lobby for their use.

I'm saying you have to get real here and realize that paintball is only safe and legal because we have enforced rules to keep it that way. Paintball can be very dangerous otherwise.

I'm sorry, I think you were agitated by earlier posts. I do not see how my post caused you to run to such conclusions.

[raehl]

Supplemental paragraphs were not necessarily directed at your post in particular.

Agree that paintball only remains legal through proper rules and diligence.

- Chris

[Brophog]

And to prove my post of second hand knowledge of police and firearms was not totally off base:

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/12/30/uk.police/

I agree that we should be diligent in our use of paint markers. But they do have some validity in the correlation between guns/paintball. Afterall, was it not NYC that banned all guns, replica or not, to include water guns and paintball markers.

Whether we like it or not, the stereotype still remains that if you teach people to shoot other people with fake guns, you teach people to shoot people with real ones.

[raehl]

Maybe not off base, but also not representative: As the article says at the end, officers France, Italy and Germany all carry guns.

And NYC only thinks they banned paintball guns. ;)

- Chris

[Brophog]

Brittain is still in Europe though, right. I'd take that as atleast being factual of policemen in Europe not carrying guns.

We're arguing semantics at this point though.

[raehl]

Ok, I'm going to win this argument:

I'm going to sleep. Sleep good, I win. ;)

- Chris

[Brophog]

HAHAHAHA!

I proclaim you the victor!

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Brophog
Brittain is still in Europe though, right. I'd take that as atleast being factual of policemen in Europe not carrying guns

While your average policeman in the UK doesn't carry a gun. plenty do - I walk past half a dozen carrying Glocks every day. But then I do work 100yds from New Scotland Yard :)

Gun crime is on the rise over here, but still nowhere near the levels of the USA. I'm glad firearms (except small calibre target pistols and shotguns) are banned - it cuts off another potential source of supply to criminal elements and eliminates the "child kills brother with father's handgun" horror stories completely.

Fact is, having a weapon that can kill at distance with a pull of a trigger in the house means that there's a good chance someone is going to get hurt eventually......and it's statistically more likely to be the owner or a member of his/her family than it is a burglar.

[Garrum]

I may not be discussing anything with Raehl anymore, but I will correct you Gadget. Guns are statistically more likely to hurt owners, because in that statistic, they count suicides just like intentional or accidental shootings. It creates a grossly inflated number. Take out those, and you have a much less frightening number.

The same tactic is used when quailing about all of the children killed by guns. They count children as all the way up to eighteen yeards old. And they include gang and drug murders. Take out those false children and criminals, and you have more drowning in buckets and tubs each year, than die by guns.

[Gman63]

If you really look at the numbers broken down, somewhat less than 3 percent of all deaths accredated to firearms in the USA are committed with theuse of a REGERSTED firearm. This taking out all of the accedental deaths where Joe idiot left his revolver loaded under the pillow for little Johnny to pick up and play cowboys and indians. But enough of the rhetoric here. I have owned and shot pistols, rifles and shotguns competivly and enjoy the sport of paintball. Will the government ever take my firearms, What do you think, am I a gun nut, if beliving that it is my right to protect myself, my family and my home, you dang skippy I am. Another thing to think about is that look at the big city of Chicago, it is aganst the law to own a handgun and they are the murder capital of the US with about 600 murders a year. The state of New Hampshire has the lowest murder rates and it is a state where everyone is allowed to carry a conceled weapon. And call it a marker all you want, it is a Gun by the definition of a gun and the government if it decides to ban Guns will probablly not make acceptions. Your precious paintball GUN will be as illigal as any of my 1911 Colts, Shotguns or Rifles.