Idea for a Budget Mag Package, AGD Please Read...

[mjs1217]

Recently I have been thinking alot about an idea that I think AGD should consider...
I noticed that lately you guys have been more focused towards building the best, fastest, lightest gun out there, some examples being the X-Mag, and the new RT-Pro. But, while you have the high-end markers covered nicely, you lack a marker catering to beginners. But, my concept could definitly be a profitable endeaver for you because of the ever-growing number of new players to the sport.

While it could be said that the Automag can be used by a new player, it isn't what new players want. New players don't want to modify their gun right away, they just want it to look nice and shoot immediatly. They don't want to need a barrel and gas lines in addition to paying the $240 pricetag if they can buy a Spyder with all that for half the price. If you were to include a decent barrel on the Automag, put on a Vert ASA, add a few colors, and then lower the price to about 200 (retail price that is), then it would make for a great starter gun.
Now there is more to this than meets the eye. If you get new players intrested in AGD products, they will return to you for their next gun. Also, they will start to spread the word about how much they love their AGD Automag, and how much easier it is to clean than this person's Autococker, or how much more reliable it is than that person's Spyder, just to give some examples.

So, I believe that the name "AGD" can be as widely known as the word "Tippmann" or "Spyder" through the use of my idea. Please tell me what you guys think, but keep the flaming to a minimum.

Thanks,
-mjs

[personman]

I dont think that would be very possible for AGD to do it and make very much money. I dont think the automag style of gun can be produced for that cheap. What may be a possibility, is like they make a on/off that can be run strait at 800 psi or whatever, and a bolt and sear that can handle it, and then take off the regulator. That would reduce cost a bit but I think it might not work, you would have a heavy trigger pull.. its not very practical. AGD could make a spyder clone I think :p But thats pretty common. Maybe if they came up with some revolutionary design? I dont know, but I think they have alot on their hands right now.

[punkncat]

Thats a hard one.
The mag is such a good marker , and is really priced well for what you are getting.I would like to see a barrel and bottomline come with.But everyone always replaces the stock barrel anyway.

Its also nice that the classic can be built up to compete with the best.

[mjs1217]

Ah, but you see, AGD doesn't need to make a huge profit off of the marker described in my post. They will make alot more money when those people come back to AGD to buy their next gun, or buy upgrades from AGD like a new valve or bolt.

[OysterBoy]

bump for the creative kid.

[Athius]

Another thing is To forget about stainless steel bodies!!!! Make all classic mags with ule bodies!!

[mjs1217]

I don't know about all ULE bodies, because that might cause the price of the marker to go up. However, I still feel that they should come in colors.

[AGD]

We are going to be cleaning out of all the stainless stuff in the next few months and it will go cheap. The cost for most guns from China today is about 50 bucks wholesale. If you paid more than that for an import you paid for advertising and profit. We can't make our valve for 50 bucks.

AGD

[OysterBoy]

Originally posted by AGD
We are going to be cleaning out of all the stainless stuff in the next few months and it will go cheap. The cost for most guns from China today is about 50 bucks wholesale. If you paid more than that for an import you paid for advertising and profit. We can't make our valve for 50 bucks.

AGD

Can someone make some sense of that for me?
Thanks

[Rather]

It means you may find SS parts on a slight discount I do believe. If so, you can build an awesome SS-RT mag for less than making a ULE-X mag for a good chunk more.

Correct me if im wrong.

[mjs1217]

I had to get someone to explain it to me to, but:
Tom is referring to Kingman. He brings up a good point in that labor there is cheaper than here. That is why they can make guns at such a cheap price. Also, we (my friend who explained it to me and I) think that hes also talking about how Automags can't be sold much cheaper than they currently are sold for.

[GT]

Originally posted by AGD
We are going to be cleaning out of all the stainless stuff in the next few months and it will go cheap.

SS is for real men! Not any of these girly man Al mags ;)

[11_Mile_TMaster]

Also...

Keep in mind, as I think I may or may not have said before, Think of what you have in an Automag Valve... Bolt, Trigger system (essentially), AND a Regulator.

Half the Regulators out there alone are almost the size of an AIR Valve. :) Look at a Spyder Bolt, And look at a Spyder Hammer and valve. Consider the SIZE of everything.

I know you're all saying, What's your point, 11 Mile?Besides, you're some Freak CSC Student, not an engineer.

Yeah, I'm a CSC Student only because I can't do Diff EQ to save my life. I am good at EE, and know enough ME to know this:

Well, when you deal with less compact-ness, you can have a LOT of slop. You don't need to precision machine parts. You can just slop slop slop. Hence the wonders of things like trigger jobs, And the need for things like aftermarket Bolts/Valves for such guns. If things were made to the sort of tolerances AGD does, Upgrades would be unnecessary, because if you're going to do the tolerances that high, Obviously those high tolerances are going to be used to produce Precisely High Quality Parts, not precisely low quality parts.

Also. Let's go back to that Automag Classic Video. Remember When Tom talks about all the work that went into a Stainless Mainbody? Precision Welding (And even then, the minor lack of precision required such things as PT Spacer kits, If I understand...) Multiple Welds, and Powdercoating.

Spyder Body: Take a block of aluminum. Drill Two Holes out. Make a cut down the center of the back. Make a cut at the bottom. Drill a hole at the top. Lots of slop is enabled by the design... All the extra length the bolt can travel doesn't even really require the Feed Tube and Valve to be a very precise distance from each-other. Hell, I should start making em for fun.


THAT is why a timmy is much more expensive. Tolerances are tighter than a Regular Spyder ;) (j/k)

Aaaanyway, I ranted again, didn't I? In any case, Yeah, It would not be possible to decrease the cost of the Automag without redesigning it to allow for slop.

[tyrion2323]

I think that it could be done...

SS No-Rise body
Classic Valve w/ L10
Intelliframe
Foregrip


AGD might have to manufacture a barrel kit to fit the twist-lock, but other than that....

Jacob

[mjs1217]

I think that perhaps I didn't explain it well enough. The point of this marker is to be more affordable then the other AGD markers, which would mean NO Intelliframe, or Xvalve, or LX, or any of that, because new players don't need that.

[Blennidae]

My interpretation of Tom's post is:

Its not in AGD's best interest to build a beginner gun based on the Automag design. The competetion in that market segment costs $50 to manufacture. The classic valve alone cost more than $50 to produce. So its pretty obvious the competition can spend more of its money on marketing their product, and maintain their profit.

However, since AGD is phasing out the SS stuff, you may be able to build an Automag using the older parts for a decent price.

[ChucktheMAGician]

Originally posted by mjs1217
I think that perhaps I didn't explain it well enough. The point of this marker is to be more affordable then the other AGD markers, which would mean NO Intelliframe, or Xvalve, or LX, or any of that, because new players don't need that.
Isn't that what they used to make? Standard RF mags w/ a classic valve and carbon fiber frame. If selling those would have been good enough they would keep doing it. Advancements were made because they were needed. As Tom inferred, he can't make a whole mag and sell it for that cheap and still make money. Losing money would suck just to satisfy the few people who want a cheapo mag.

[Brophog]

Why does this topic keep coming up?

Tom obviously knows that there is a big difference between "selling" and "profit". You can go about making a profit in any number of ways, but the two terms are far from correlative.

If you want a cheap marker, Kingman and Brass Eagle will certainly hook you up. If you want a top quality marker, look to AGD.

[Lohman446]

Besides.. sometimes discounting will hurt you more than help you. Porsche is learning this and practicing

Go into a Porsche dealer, look at the sticker price - look at some of the adds - NO DISCOUNT. You will pay this price. Porsche will not allow their dealers to discount below that price. Sometimes its better to keep the price in the market range of the product you produce (think, the aluminum X-valve, ULE body are cheaper to produce than the stainless were)

[OysterBoy]

Hey tom, since your phasing out all the SS stuff, would we be able to trade in our SS bodies?? DOesnt seem too fair to have a gun heavier then one the same, only released a little after. I mean I just bought mine, but can already see how aluminum would be better.
So, whats the deal?

[Cort95]

Seems a shame to see SS going out with the twist lock, but I understand times change. Personally, I still find the stainless mainbody one of the most attractive features of the Automag, so it seems I'm one of the lucky ones who will clean up when AGD dumps their inventory. Tax refund's on the way, Tom; hurry up and drop the prices on those black powerfeed babies :)

[Brophog]

I agree, the stainless steel bodies are nice.

[OysterBoy]

Well, I'll trade a blast classic right feed for an allumium.

ANy takers?

[Cort95]

Hmm don't remember clicking submit twice...

[OysterBoy]

...didnt u just say that.......

[mjs1217]

Originally posted by AGD
We are going to be cleaning out of all the stainless stuff in the next few months and it will go cheap.

Wait a minute...Does this mean that all the current Classic Mags (that are made otu of stainless steel) will be going for cheaper?

[StickFigurSicide]

what is AGD doing with all the standard AIR valves that people are turning in when they buy X valves?

Would it be possible to put those, the old stainless bodies (which, if they accept trade-ins, would be cheap), a stock minimag barrel, carbon fiber frame, and an expansion chamber (noobs will probably be running Co2)and throw them all on a stock rail? a new minimag cost around $230 if i remember correctly, and if your using traded in (refurbished) parts this price can be significantly lowered, right? I think AGD should look into having an entry level marker (especially since it would also be highly customizable will all of their current upgrades).

Oh well just my $0.25

[11_Mile_TMaster]

Originally posted by StickFigurSicide
what is AGD doing with all the standard AIR valves that people are turning in when they buy X valves?

Would it be possible to put those, the old stainless bodies (which, if they accept trade-ins, would be cheap), a stock minimag barrel, carbon fiber frame, and an expansion chamber (noobs will probably be running Co2)and throw them all on a stock rail? a new minimag cost around $230 if i remember correctly, and if your using traded in (refurbished) parts this price can be significantly lowered, right? I think AGD should look into having an entry level marker (especially since it would also be highly customizable will all of their current upgrades).

Oh well just my $0.25

1: I Don't know where a Mini Retails for that price
2: Refurbished markers would probably have to be sold for SIGNFICANT discounts.
3: IF AGD is truly planning to move to all aluminum parts and Cocker threads, the last thing you would want to do is tick off a bunch of newbies by making a gun that would require them to buy a whole new mainbody to get a barrel (Perhaps I'm a bit, well, stretching, but, All the newer Kits are Not avalilable in Mag Threads. And as an Aside, Pipes look Sweet on Y-Gripped RT Pros.)
4: X-Valve is the future of AGD, at least for now. Let's put it this way; If AGD is lucky enough that they win the SP lawsuit, they would then be able to, in theory, be able to make a Sear tripper without fear. BUT, Everything I've seen indicates that a Sear-Tripper depends on a ULT. And that, once again, is X-Valve. (I know, ULT And Classic can be done. But not without a LOT more setup than a n00b would want.

So basically, you want to sell Newbies into a company with a bunch of dead-end items. Wow, what a great Customer Relations move!

Now, don't get me wrong, I like my classic valve. Hell, it seems to chop less than my RT Pro... although I've no clue why. But, well, A duck's a duck.

[AcemanPB]

Which is cheaper for AGD to make, aluminum ULE bodies, or stainless steel bodies. It seems like the ULE bodies would be cheaper to produce. So maybe in the future we will see a cheaper "classic mag" with ULE body? Maybe once Tom gets rid of the SS bodies we will see a price drop in the ULE ones as well?

[street1356]

YAY!! Cheap stuff!! YAY!!


i love sales


werent those old no rise bodies ss??

[nerobro]

Sacrilage time...

Why not have an offshore MFG make AIR valves? Short of the short term backlash. The taiwaneese mfgs manage to build a reg, valve, gun, good barrel (albit it's .692), and even an electroframe for $200 retail..

the AIR is mostly lathe work. Could it be done overseas for cheaper?

[Brophog]

Do you work overseas Nero? Neither do I. That's why.

Quality means something, don't you guys get this. What is this fascination with price? Have we gone so far down hill that our favorite store is Walmart, and our favorite restaurant McDonalds. Do you people not appreciate anything anymore.

Sorry for the rant. In my opinion, with paintball markers being so similiar, my money goes with top notch quality and top notch customer service. That's AGD. You can get a hold of Tom at a moment's notice for anything you need. To me, that is worth $200 more.

[nerobro]

IIRC worr isn't making their bodies here anymore. You can get some seriously high quality items from the east. they're completely cappable of building automags. I'm not saying AGD should move... but... It could be a move that would make an ubercheap mag possiable.

From my understanding the true cost of the mag, is the stack of tolerances between the sear pivot, and the valve. You have several bits in there that are curved surfaces that you need to keep accurate to the .001 or less. Or else you fudge up the timing of the gun.

I think I'd like to see how AGD does it. or what tools/setups they have their MFG shop use to get the tolerances right.

and like I said. Sacrilage for even suggesting it.

[Brophog]

I didn't mean for that to come out harsh, just kinda tired of the repeated suggestions for some cheap product out of AGD. Some people think that Kingman and Brass Eagle are the epitome of paintball and that for some reason we should attempt to delve into their level. Yet some of these same people want something with more quality than a spyder or talon. I just don't get it.

I don't see anyone asking Earon Carter or Glenn Palmer for some toned down versions of their fine markers. Its kinda sad that some are asking Tom for cheap knockoffs of his.

As for the overseas comment, I'm a big supporter of trying to make as much stuff here as possible. Some is a quality aspect, but most of that is from a job aspect. The biggest problem with our economy is the lack of worthwhile jobs, many of which are manufacturing jobs that have headed overseas to save a buck. We need to find some common ground where companies can afford to put out a good product at a decent price, yet be able to pay workers a decent salary. There has to be a middle ground between $30/hr and cheap foreign labor.

[Gabriel]

I agree with brogphrog. Although our economy is really not that bad. I do however agree with supporting american workers.

P.S. For those that want to discuss our economy, I will just say one thing: I am in germany. The unemployment in my state is 24%. People earn less, and with the euro being $o.80, I think they are entitled to gripe, not us.

[Cort95]

Uh oh, looks like we got something started here. Did anyone read that old interview with Tom someone posted recently? One thing he mentioned, and I think still applies, is that there is a lot of percieved value in the paintball market, and if nothing else, AGD wants to go down knowing they provided real value. I have to admit, back in the early Level 7 days, I thought mag toters were a bunch of elitists for paying 400 bucks for a paintball gun. Once I tore through 4 or 5 100-200 dollar guns, I was lucky enough to rediscover AGD's products. Now, I would never disrespect my friends who choose another marker, people that play paintball still have to eat, and so do the Taiwanese. But I am not exaggerating or kissing butt when I say that AGD made me believe in American worksmanship again, and I hope that is something that doesn't change for as long as people play paintball. I'm getting all misty eyed now :p

[mjs1217]

I totally agree with alot of the points that have been brought up. I admit that my plan wasn't completely thought through, and I think that it's really up to Tom Kaye, who has said that it isn't feasable. So, I suppose it is best that AGD continue to make high-end markers and be known for doing that extremely well, rather than doing that pretty good and making low-end markers semi-descently.


-mjs

[nerobro]

AGD is one of those companys that cares ;-)

Wow, this thread has really changed direction. You're right, there does need to be a middle ground. $30 an hour is rediculous for what a lot of people do. People get $25 an hour for driving a dumptruck, they they don't own or have to maintain.

People get $30 an hour for shuffling paper too....

Hmm... You guys still have me thinking about how to make a cheaper mag. Right now despite being lathe work, it's not simple lathe work. maybe it could be made more simple?

Say a single piston regulator? Versus the many part design that's beign run now.

Hmm... And then there's the whole massive stockpile of (what are effectively) $100 AIR's sitting around the AGD factory ;-) I can't wait to see what gun those get delivered on.

[Cort95]

I'm pretty sure the old valves are being destroyed, it seems I heard that when the "go retro" program started. It makes sense, it's just like microsoft (sorry AGD, no offense) discontinuing support for older systems. Once AGD phases out the old stainless level 7's, their support costs should drop somewhat, which hopefully will mean even greater things to come...

[OysterBoy]

Hey I have a side-bar question.

Can you still buy an RT valvE??? I havent been able to find it on the site. I dunno if I have enough for an X-valve, so Id just want an RT.

Any help?

[cockermongol]

Really I think the transfer of jobs overseas can be attributed to several factors.

1) Tarrifs are too low, so it is beneficial to import.
2) Manufacturers have to pay their workers a certain amount (say, $30/hour) plus benefits, or the worker's unions will strike. Overseas, wages are low and there aren't any unions to halt production and force the prices up.

So, it would seem, the U.S. should either:
1) become isolationists and force American companies to stay in America,
or 2) set a national regulation on the amount workers are allowed to be payed (socialism)

The beauty is we have a capitalist economy. In this type of economy, unions will drive wages up until businesses leave, and if there is no protective tariff raised (to halt the flow of businesses out of the country) then Americans will lose jobs. When Americans lose their jobs they quit the unions that failed them and are then willing to take new jobs that pay less. Usually, by this time, the economy is so bad the U.S. government finally implements a tariff and businesses come back to the U.S. where there is an abundant supply of workers willing to work for cheap (Gilded Age).

It's all a big cycle. This is why a college education is such a big deal. Most of the time skilled jobs (jobs requiring a college education or some type of additional schooling) are harder to move out of the country. Eventually something will have to halt the outward flow of businesses from the country, but right now low tarrifs and overbearing unions make a move very desirable.

[ChucktheMAGician]

Originally posted by OysterBoy
Can you still buy an RT valvE??? I havent been able to find it on the site. I dunno if I have enough for an X-valve, so Id just want an RT.
Nope, just x-valves. If you want a Retro pick up a used one from someone wanting to get an X.