mag efficiency? What is all the crying about?

[GT]

SO I was running through other marker forums of pbn trying to get a realistic number of effiency on other markers running a 68/4500. So throwing out the outliars this I what I came up with, keep in mind these are averages Please dont post about how "your boyz" get like 2 cases on an old shocker running a 47ci

Mag LVLX: about 1200-1500
Timmy: 1200-1500
New shocker: 1000-1200 (have read evolve will get you 15-1700 but I want to compare stock to stock)
Old school shocker: 1000-1200
Cyborg: 1700-2000 (still to few threads to confidantly put that number down)
Viking/excall: 1600-1800
Cocker: stock '03 1200-1400
ICD: 1200-1500
Spyder: stock 1000-1400
Blazer: 1000-1300
Impy: 100-1700 (had trouble finding a number here, forum is full of morons that could get like 2 cases off of a 47/3k ;))
Tippy M98: 1000-1300
Any angel: 1000-1300
Matrix LCD: 900-1300

Now stock I see a few guns that may give a mag a run for its money; excall/viking, cyborg, and impy(?). moded (ie bolt kits or other crap you have to buy to get the gun to work like it should have) makes the list alittle larger; Matrix, cockers', excall/viking, cyborg, and impy's. To me it seems that the difference, even in moded high eff markers, the difference is only a few hundred balls.

Do you guys honestly think mags are that inefficient?

[Havoc_online]

What is all the crying about?

Amen brother.

[hAppy]

maybe the scene where the gun stops functioning reliable at 800 psi gets them

i never knew i could get that many shots off any of those guns... i never really pay attention

but it sure feels like im out of air faster w/ my mag

[Brophog]

Efficiency anymore is just something for people to compare.

If your going through so much paint that you can't get a big enough HPA tank to suffice, then you'd better start re-evaluating your playing style.

[Lethargic]

Finally, someone comes out with some real numbers...

Mad props to you, brotha (note the cool slang usage):D

[GT]

Originally posted by Lethargic
Finally, someone comes out with some real numbers...

Mad props to you, brotha (note the cool slang usage):D

I had to get something togther that was semi-concrete on what gun used X amount or propelent. I think I am getting to the point that I would like to spend some big money on a NEW rig. Trust me when I say I make very informed decisions and I needed all the data infront of me. I think I need to call AGD on monday and get the skinny on ordering an X.

GT

[Dayspring]

Amen to that!


Originally posted by Brophog
Efficiency anymore is just something for people to compare.

If your going through so much paint that you can't get a big enough HPA tank to suffice, then you'd better start re-evaluating your playing style.

[Havoc_online]

a big thing when measuring effiency is to know that shooting with paint and dry-firing makes a BIG difference(as does your barrel/paint, etc).

These should be your average numbers on a RT/Emag valve with a tuned level 10 on a 4500psi tank.

45ci leads to around 800 shots
which is a revy and a little over 4 pods.

68ci should give you about 1,200 shots
that's a revy and a little over 7 pods. that's pretty darn good for a 68/4500. Most mid/front players dont take more than 7 pods out on the field.

back players do and back players dont use 68ci tanks.

88ci leads to around 1550 shots
which is a revy and almost 9 pods.

114ci leads to around 2000 shots
which is a revy and almost 13 pods.

[Ov3rmind]

Ay ya, I know most Mag owners would buy an efficiency upgrade in a flash if it was made by AGD. It would be just like that whole "Mags don't chop" mentality everyone had before; but when Lvl 10 came out everyone and their parakete got one. That and Mag owners seem to be the only group who think efficiency doesn't matter. Not to rag on anyone, but the simple fact of the matter is that efficiency is a weak point for the Mag. A lot of people would prefer to not be refilling their tank often (especially those of us who don't have any all day air fields close by).

A few of those numbers seem to be conveniently lowered as far as other guns go as well.

[Phil]

My LX E-mag only got 700 off of a 68/3k. My gun was well maintained and in good working order. My non-LX RT got similarly dismal efficiency.

[FooTemps]

wow, that effiency is sad... only 700? I got 550 with my old classic on a 45/3000... maybe i'm just lucky

[GT]

Originally posted by Phil
My LX E-mag only got 700 off of a 68/3k. My gun was well maintained and in good working order. My non-LX RT got similarly dismal efficiency.

which is about 1050 on a 4.5k assuming you were not getting hot fils. There are a multitude of reasons why some get crappy eff and others are insanly high eff. Heck I read a thread today where a guy got an emag to run right at 1800rnds/68/4500.

Alot of it is in the tunning, oiling, and keep those o'rings fresh.


A few of those numbers seem to be conveniently lowered as far as other guns go as well.

ok,
so can we agree that they are with in 10%? I dont think I am order of magnitudes off in those numbers, although they are rather conserative. I checked as many threads as I could from guys who were actually using the guns, 10% is about +/- 100-150rnds. like I said, to me, and extra 200-250rnds isnt going to make or break me.

[GT]

Originally posted by Ov3rmind
(especially those of us who don't have any all day air fields close by).

I have seen guys reply in this same response more than a few times. IF some of you guys cant get good fills close by maybe running a n2 rig isnt something that is very feasible. Its kinda like driving a ferrari in arakasas, you feel real cool until you begin to search for an authorized dealer to service your ride. At some point it just becomes to much of a PITA to make it worth your while.

[Ov3rmind]

Originally posted by gtrsi


I have seen guys reply in this same response more than a few times. IF some of you guys cant get good fills close by maybe running a n2 rig isnt something that is very feasible. Its kinda like driving a ferrari in arakasas, you feel real cool until you begin to search for an authorized dealer to service your ride. At some point it just becomes to much of a PITA to make it worth your while.
Or you can just shoot a gun that gets good efficiency and be content with compressed air.:)

[FlameboyC11]

I find it kinda odd that you are comparing guns that vary greatly in price. Most of the sub $300 guns, when upgraded to x-mag prices, could probabily get better efficency. Put $700 into a cocker, and you are going to end up with a very nice efficency #, which, odds are, is going to be higher than a mag. As for efficency itself, who cares? It's not like fields charge extra if you re-fill after every game or so, and if you are shooting more than your tank can hold in one round, that's alot of paint which means you can waste some cash on a bigger tank imo...

[Brophog]

Originally posted by FlameboyC11
It's not like fields charge extra if you re-fill after every game or so

Perhaps YOUR field doesnt. There are still several fields out there that charge either per fill, per oz, or per pressure.

[FlameboyC11]

That's surprising to me, huh. All the fields in my area have unlimited field/air fees only.

[AGD]

In theory there should be an upper absolute limit to the shots you get from a tank because it takes X amount of energy to shoot a ball. I am not surprised that in reality all the markers are generally close. I agree that efficiency is the latest thing to quote.

AGD

[GT]

Originally posted by FlameboyC11
Most of the sub $300 guns, when upgraded to x-mag prices, could probabily get better efficency.

Maybe I shouldnt compare them to any gun? All I did was setup a simple table and ask you guys what you thought. Who said I was comparing to an xmag? I was simply stating what a "mag" got per tank?

Price >300's
Timmy: 1200-1500
New shocker: 1000-1200 (have read evolve will get you 15-1700 but I want to compare stock to stock)
Old school shocker: 1000-1200
Cyborg: 1700-2000 (still to few threads to confidantly put that number down)
Viking/excall: 1600-1800
ICD: 1200-1500
Blazer: 1000-1300
Impy: 100-1700 (had trouble finding a number here, forum is full of morons that could get like 2 cases off of a 47/3k )
Any angel: 1000-1300
Matrix LCD: 900-1300

<300 priced guns
Tippy M98: 1000-1300
Cocker: stock '03 1200-1400
Spyder: stock 1000-1400
Mag LVLX: about 1200-1500


I find it kinda odd that you are comparing guns that vary greatly in price.

Why is that odd? I am looking at desirble markers that a number of folks use and compare daily.


Put $700 into a cocker, and you are going to end up with a very nice efficency #, which, odds are, is going to be higher than a mag

Well you sure as hell better get something for 700 bucks! You do realize that you had taken a once 300 dollar gun and dropped 700 into to make it atleast 1k spent. Lets be honest and say that a mag gets 1300 shots per fill and this cocker gets 2000, a very very well tuned cocker that 99.9% of cocker owners cant seem to figure out.

Now lets say your local field charges 1 per 1kpsi. If on average you shoot a case a weekend you will spend an extra $2.90 per day to play with a mag. so lets see 65 bucks a case, 15.oo feild fee, lets say 5 bucks in gass for a total of 85 dollars, less your air charge. Ok so to play with a mag over a super eff. cocker you are looking at an increase in total daily pb cost of about 2.8%.

BTW, I can build you mag with an X valve for about the same price as a 2k3 STOCK cocker(meaning it will be about as eff. as a mag). That also means a mag, that is in the mid 2lbs and will never ever chop a ball. Once you play a few games and chop a ball or 2 you will wish you droped that extra $2.90 for a mag that day....

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by gtrsi


I have seen guys reply in this same response more than a few times. IF some of you guys cant get good fills close by maybe running a n2 rig isnt something that is very feasible. Its kinda like driving a ferrari in arakasas, you feel real cool until you begin to search for an authorized dealer to service your ride. At some point it just becomes to much of a PITA to make it worth your while.

What's wrong with arkansas? :(

Please, this is a retorical question, we dont need a response. (for my fellow arkansans: Shhhh. Be vewy, vewy qwiet. We'uh hunting wabbits.)

Gabe

[cgrieves]

As a tournament player, I've never had a problem with 'Mag efficiency. I'm not sure how refills work at US tourneys but over here you refill your tank after each and every game if you've fired more than 50 shots. It's so quick and easy that it makes no sense not to. The marker has to shoot the hopperfull I start a game with, and the pots on my back (normally a 4+3), which it does. I couldn't care less how much air is left in my tank once it's done that.

At the very few recball days I've played with my X I've also never had a problem when using an 88ci 4500 tank, but then again I tend to get up front and have fun rather than sit 50 yards away and empty hoppers at every bush that moves (I'd rather play a tourney than recball any day of the week though).

Personally I see the X as the ultimate tournament marker- if it happens to make a great recball marker too, then that's a bonus. Your mileage and opinion may vary.

Besides, whatever marker we've sunk thousands of pounds/dollars into, we're bound to hail it's benefits and play down it's weaknesses, so these threads don't really serve much of a purpose other than to kick up a fuss about nothing.

[breg]

Ok, then is there a difference between input pressure and operating pressure?

[shartley]

For me, efficiency really only comes into play if playing on my own field where I don’t yet have a scuba fill setup. For my Co2 markers I have enough tanks to last a full day of really hard playing. I just have to watch my HPA use, but can go pretty much all day playing conservatively.

When at a standard field, it isn’t an issue at all, since like another posted I can get filled up after every game if need be. And I have yet to shoot a marker (aside from those using 12grams) that could not last a whole game on a single fill.

But nice to see the numbers posted… even if just rough ones.

[Branchvillian]

Not sure where some of those numbers came from, but my mag gets no where near 1000 shots off a 68/4500.

[tony3]

Mags could get good efficency, but the fact is that once I got below 800 on my mag I would have half feeds, every other shot would fire etc. On my impulse I could get pretty much to the bottom of my tank before I ran out of air. I used to get only about 600 reliable shots off my 68/3000, on my imp 800-900.

[Lethargic]

Branch. I can drop a hopper and 7 pods in a single game with my 70/4500. Whats more, I have done so on multiple occasions, and my mag will shoot all that paint EVERY TIME. SO lets see here: Egg (around 200) + 7 pods (150 Each) = 1250 balls, give or take a few.

I have never understood exactly why people bash on mag efficiency. The ONLY reason I can find stems to a comment Tom made wayyyy back when level 10 was being beta tested that went along the lines of "Using this upgrade will take a littel bit off of your efficiency." Somehow, this has become translated to mean thatmags are incapable of getting over a thousand shots on a fill, or that LX takes several pods off of one's efficiency. This problem is compounded by thousands of people who claim that their (insert random gun here) can get (obscenely high number of shots/fill here) with no supporting evidence.

I will continue to commend gtrsi for actually going out and finding some real numbers, and then posting them, even when they go against the current beliefs here on AO. And remember people, this is an AVERAGE, so having a few guns that get more, and a few that get less is a normal occurence.

[Creative Mayhem]

gtrsi, thanks for the info. Great to know that in reality mags arent that bad on air. However, I have a question about one of your numbers.. you say that old shockers get 1000-1200 shots, is that Air or CO2, cause every old school shocker I shot while coming up during the electro revolution(thanks for the term Albinonewt ;)) were gas hogs, and everyone would shoot CO2 on them due to poor air efficiency. Now, I'm not saying your numbers are wrong, but it seems a little high from what I have experienced. Can you/anyone shed some light?

[tobz]

One thing I would like to point out...

If you get 700 off of a 68/3k tank with a level x mag...

that IS NOT EQUAL TO ABOUT 1050 shots off a 68/4.5k..

Since your mag is only using approximately the top 2k psi of the tank.. that is more like 1200-1300 shots per 68/4.5k.. since only ~2k psi of the original 3k can be used, but all of the extra 1.5k can be used from the 4.5k tank..
I hope that made sense...

[Lohman446]

Squid, I think thats postwhoring, getting two posts for one... but then again

[RRfireblade]

Without reading the whole thread I'd say that efficiency numbers on the internet are similar to BPS numbers. :rolleyes:

I'll also just say this,the LX Mag is not "Bad" but any mostly stock Cocker I've ever had kills it.My Imps have been a tad worse,Vikings and Trix in the old days(when I had them)were much worse and most others are/were a fair bit better.

For what ever it's worth.

If your a hardcore Mag owner,the only real improvement left is better efficiency,pus that's the big fad right now so what else is there to whine about?;)

Jay.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by Lohman446
Squid, I think thats postwhoring, getting two posts for one... but then again lol, im not postwhoring. I dont even post to much anymore :)

But ill delete my other post, and just say it. I get 2350 shots on my viking with a 68/45 fill. Dont believe me? Ill make a video sometimes :) And no, I didnt just make the numbers up. ;)

[Brophog]

Were we born in a cave? No, I don't believe any marker shooting at 280FPS will get 2350 shots on a 68/45K tank.

[GT]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
I get 2350 shots on my viking with a 68/45 fill. Dont believe me? Ill make a video sometimes :) And no, I didnt just make the numbers up. ;)

I would love to see it! I had a viking and got nowhere near a full case. there were times I could pull maybe 1800 out of it..


Without reading the whole thread I'd say that efficiency numbers on the internet are similar to BPS numbers.

Yea, I agree that is why i searched more than a few threads lastnight to try and wade through the BS and trust me in those other forums there is tons of it!


have a question about one of your numbers.. you say that old shockers get 1000-1200 shots, is that Air or CO2,

Problem here is that most shockers became ever so more efficient as they past through the years. My eclipse would push right around 1k on a 68/4500 cold, full, fill. also keep in mind that my shockers were all in super shape. I do agree it is alittle high on the 1k+ side, but again I read alot of posts and gave it the benifit of a doubt. its pretty hard to find n2 info on a gun that 90% of its owners use co2 for. Also take into consideration that those true hard core old school shocker owners that ran n2 probally tore thier guns done alot to keep them in tip top shape.

EDIT: also consider that the shocker 'noids always leaked! so keep your gas source off bewteen games if you wanted to get the biggest bang for your compressed ait buck..

[-=Squid=-]

Thats why I Wasnt planning on posting it :) I didnt figgure people would believe me. At practice I will tell murph to bring a camera and try to vid. I bought a case at practice, shot all of it, and still had air leftover. Used wicked calculator skills and figgured up about 2350 shots.

In fact, AKA guaruntees more than 2000 shots on a 68/45 fill... they even say it on video. They claim, if your not getting over 2000 shots on that fill the marker is "broken."

EDIT: ok, me and gtrsi are talking on aim. I refiggured, and it was 2250, not 2350. Still good. We then figgured the issue of shootdown past 450psi (output of tank) so im REALLY getting roughly 2025-2125 shots. Still good enough, and definitely above average.

[Ov3rmind]

Originally posted by RRfireblade
Vikings and Trix in the old days(when I had them)were much worse and most others are/were a fair bit better.
I don't remember the Vikings ever getting "bad efficiency." The only internal difference between the 03s and and first ones that made a difference on air comsumption were the new noids (which only made them slightly more efficient). Little has changed with the Viking internally, most older ones perform just like the 04s (aside from electronics).

[RRfireblade]

No,I shouldn't have said it like that.I meant trix,far worse and the Vike was a fair bit better.Typed to fast.;)

[hardr0ck68]

yeah i HATE people claiming mags eat air. First off any gun can me set up to gain ~100-200 balls just by tuning and using the right barrle (i would think form all i have read that 10 inch unpotred and sized nicly to the paint would be BEST on air if not a bit loud) Next is the fact WHO COUNTS PAINT? If you spill half a pod when loading do you subtract that 20 from your count? Then of course you ALWAYS get idiots with inflated numbers. I honsetly KNOW i get ~800 shots with my 45 45, and i dont bother to tune my gun nicly nor do i have a barrle kit, i also have leaky slide checks and fittings and whatnot (overnight 2 nights or so all my air will sneak out of my set up) And in the end, if you chose your marker based on air consumption then you have an issue because their are factors that ACTUALLY effect your game (profile, weight, RELIABILITY, consistancy, and so on) if you put efficancy over reliability i think your a fool. A SERIOUS player takes the time to fill between games, takes the time to prepare between every game and is as ready for his 5th game as he/she was for their FIRST of the day. So in closing, SPINTER BOYS IF ARE TO LAZY TO STAND IN THE FILL LINE PLEASE CRY SOMEWHERE ELSE! and if your feild charges for more than one fill buy a scuba or two, or FIND A NEW FEILD cause their takin you up the pooper (its generally $5 to fill a scuba...)

[Lohman446]

Until they get to the point in efficiency that you can use a 12G and fire off 1000 rounds I will be happy where I am. When they get to teh point that I can reliably play a whole tournament game on a single twelve gram (or equally as small nitro source, you know what I mean) stuffed in the handle or similarly out of the way place I will be happy with mags.

[Mindflux]

The one thing I wish is that the mag had a lower operating pressure. My mag starts acting up when my tank hits ~1000 PSI left in it, I wish I could shoot deeper into the tank. That means my 68/3k I can only use 2/3 of the tank...

Shrug.

[Trauma]

is the reason that we have our tank input 800 psi for the xvalves are for the reactivity right? well since we have ULE triggers now and the reactivity isn't really there anymore, a tad but it was reduced, doesn't this mean that we can lower our input to maybe 500 psi or so, and get more shots out of our tank?

[Havoc_online]

Yes, the valve likes a high input pressure, but it uses less air per shot.

Markers that have a lower operating pressure use MORE air per shot.

It's not so one-sided.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by FlameboyC11
I find it kinda odd that you are comparing guns that vary greatly in price. Most of the sub $300 guns, when upgraded to x-mag prices, could probabily get better efficency. Put $700 into a cocker, and you are going to end up with a very nice efficency #, which, odds are, is going to be higher than a mag.

This actually makes no sense at all... What $700 upgrade are you putting into a cocker to increase the efficiency on a cocker?! An EBlade isn't going to increase your efficiency, neither is a new frontblock or inline reg. An $8 spring set is all you need.... $8 friggin dollars.

[Dayspring]

No. The minimum input pressure of a mag is ~600psi. The internal operating pressure is ~450psi. To be safe, you want to put about a 200psi gradient between the input pressure and the minimum pressure. That makes it an ~800psi input.

If you lower the input pressure on the gun- an RT without the ULT, you reduce the kick, correct. If you do it on a ULT equipped gun, it won't cycle reliably b/c of the reduced return force of the ULT combined with the lowered input pressure on the pin. (Same reason you don't use a ULT in an Emag- it doesn't have enough UMPH to push the heavy solenoid plunger/sear)



Originally posted by Trauma
is the reason that we have our tank input 800 psi for the xvalves are for the reactivity right? well since we have ULE triggers now and the reactivity isn't really there anymore, a tad but it was reduced, doesn't this mean that we can lower our input to maybe 500 psi or so, and get more shots out of our tank?

[GT]

Originally posted by FallNAngel
An $8 spring set is all you need.... $8 friggin dollars.

how many shots do you get out of your cocker?

I have a works on the bench right now in pieces as well as a new madmann spring set.... so we will see..


The minimum input pressure of a mag is ~600psi. The internal operating pressure is ~450psi. To be safe, you want to put about a 200psi gradient between the input pressure and the minimum pressure

I am sure this is a case by case deal, but I have run my emag at 615-625 with no problems. Heck I didnt even know there pressure was that low until I was packing my gear up at the end of the day..

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by gtrsi

how many shots do you get out of your cocker?


I will usually play a game or 2 of rec ball on the air that's left in the tank after any of my L10 Mags quit shooting.;)

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by Havoc_online
Yes, the valve likes a high input pressure, but it uses less air per shot.

Markers that have a lower operating pressure use MORE air per shot.

It's not so one-sided.

Technically, it shouldn't matter either way... The same amount of energy is needed in both setups to accelerate the ball to the desired velocity.


Originally posted by gtrsi
how many shots do you get out of your cocker?

Honestly, I don't know. I haven't counted to find out. I got an EBlade, but never got a chance to play with it long enough to put numbers on the counter.

[Interceptor]

On my old minimag, with ANS charger, bolt, and Reactor valve, and a Lapco Bigshot, I got around 900-1000 on a 68/3000.

[Smoke]

Hmmm....I don't know why some people are saying that they can't run their mags down past 800 and still be reliable. I keep my mags very well maintained, and I can usually run them all the way to the bottom of the bottle. I've never had any issues with crappy performance below 800.

[Magluvr]

Originally posted by automagfreek
Hmmm....I don't know why some people are saying that they can't run their mags down past 800 and still be reliable. I keep my mags very well maintained, and I can usually run them all the way to the bottom of the bottle. I've never had any issues with crappy performance below 800.

No joke.

I normally run my mini all the way down to 350. That is right 350!!! I tried switching my bottle over to my brother's cocker to see if it would shoot anymore (since you can't really trust the mini guages. Well, he wasn't able to get any shots out of the tank either. So, maybe both are guns are odd ducks!

[Smoke]

Originally posted by Magluvr


So, maybe both are guns are odd ducks!

From all the time I've spent working on mags, I will admit that mags do have "personalities". Some mags are really easy to get working right, some are just stubborn.

It's those GD elves man.....:p

[Havoc_online]

Originally posted by FallNAngel


Technically, it shouldn't matter either way... The same amount of energy is needed in both setups to accelerate the ball to the desired velocity.



So I guess you didnt notice that was my point? :confused: :rolleyes:

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by automagfreek
Hmmm....I don't know why some people are saying that they can't run their mags down past 800 and still be reliable. I keep my mags very well maintained, and I can usually run them all the way to the bottom of the bottle. I've never had any issues with crappy performance below 800.

Your saying an L10 mag shoots down to the bottom of the bottle? I'm gonna have to say, no way. L7 down to 300-400 yeah,L10's at least 200-300psi higher than that.More so if it's set up for maximum softness.