Woman killed by paintball marker tank

[Rope a Dope]

http://fox40.trb.com/news/ktxl-021604paintball,0,2057805.story?coll=ktxl-news-1

PLACERVILLE -- A woman was killed Monday when she was struck in the head with a cartridge from a paintball gun, according to the El Dorado County Sheriff's Dept.

The freak accident happened in the area of Mosquito Road in El Dorado County. Sheriff's Dept. officials tell FOX40 News someone was using a paintball gun and the cartirdge on the back of the gun somehow malfunctioned. It popped off the gun and became a projectile, flying through the air and striking a woman who was walking nearby. She was hit in the head and died.

There's no word yet on any potential charges against the person using the paintball gun.

This is pretty close to where I am located. No more info yet.. don't know if it was HPA or CO2.

:(

[shartley]

I would like to know more about this….

The use of the word “cartridge” brings doubt to my mind since the ONLY thing (even to someone who knows NOTHING about paintball) that looks like a cartridge would be a 12gram. Everything else looks like a bottle or a tank.

And I doubt ANY charges would be filed over a freak accident of this type… not even manslaughter.

To say this is simply bad reporting would be putting it mildly. Do reporters actually RESEARCH what they write any more, or do they just want to fill space? :rolleyes:

[11_Mile_TMaster]

Probably a 12 gram. those things are frikking evil when they're flying through the air.

And shartley, here's some food for thought.

No news is good news?
or good news is no news?

Basically, Sensationalist reporting is what the media feels the public craves. Unless there is a scandal, a scapegoat, or SOMETHING for people to get angry about, it's not a story.

[Kevmaster]

i see a lawsuit against crossman and brass eagle coming...

[Quickling]

Or a banning of 12gram powered markers.

Already I have been asked not to use them indoors so that no one trips/slides on a spent cartridge.

[Spaceman613]

why dont we wait and see some details before naming companies?

cartridge could mean a consdtant air tank. Reporters dont use the same terminology as we do. I can think of a few different ways to make tanks (all sizes) to become projectiles.

I also would find it hard to believe that a 12 gram would be enough mass to cause a fatal head wound (but anything is possible).


And to finish it off, I heard this SAME story months ago. it was on pbnation almost verbatim probably 3 or 4 months ago.

[Rope a Dope]

Heres a thread from a local paintball message board:

http://www.sacpaintball.com/cgi-bin/java/YaBB.cgi?board=stuff&action=display&num=1076989775&start=0

[dansim]

just a quick warning about the language in the link above

[shartley]

After reading that thread, it looks to be USER ERROR, not a tank defect. But I will hold off until I know the facts.

How many people die because of user error while driving their cars?

This is indeed unfortunate, but I am sure we can find freak accidents for just about any equipment, or object.

[845]

IT sounds like the bottle got unscrewed from the reg and the bottle shot out. Damn and I just had aproblem with my nitroduck tank unscrewing from the reg when I tried to remove it from my intimidator.

[*captain_cox*37]

Originally posted by shartley
To say this is simply bad reporting would be putting it mildly. Do reporters actually RESEARCH what they write any more, or do they just want to fill space? :rolleyes:

Yeah especially Fox. They are notorious for not making good reports and there "Facts" being total bs.

Anything can happen at anytime. I mean a couple years back this lady was actually decapitated by a flying pig. It was some car accident and the pig flew off the back of a truck and into her front windshield. True story, happened in my hometown and new the lady it happened too. But yeah I could actually see a lawsuit over this. If a person can make money they will usually do it by any means possible. :(

[GT]

Originally posted by shartley
How many people die because of user error while driving their cars?


Difference is society believes that bieng mobile is more important than the level of risk taken while driving..

[shartley]

Originally posted by gtrsi


Difference is society believes that bieng mobile is more important than the level of risk taken while driving..
Only because society in general has not realized how important paintball is. ;)

[845]

Originally posted by shartley

Only because society in general has not realized how important paintball is. ;)

Yeah it definately is. It even keeps kids off drugs.

http://www.members.cox.net/cky0105/myantidrug.jpg



Original Thread: http://pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=417038

[Siress]

I think it was probably a cheap blowback from wally world that someone was stretching the spring on and the plastic velocity adjuster snapped, propelling out of the marker by the air and spring, and unfortunately hitting the woman in a sensitive area.

We can't give the media any credit for knowing what a cartridge is. If the striker came out they would have called it a bullet.

Maybe now there will be more quality controle on the wal-mart markers. Personaly, I would like to never see another talon or balde in my life. I say that only Model 98's and A SINGLE TYPE of decent blow back, and when PGP's come back sell them in wal-mart too.

[Renegade_Azzy]

Anyone else think it was one of those disposable 4 oz things? Iff you got your basic blowback, it starts burping, so you take the tank off. That small tank, still has 600 or so PSI of CO2 in it, and that I can see could kill someone.

[mbyankee10]

the tank was unscrewed from the reg or one of those 4 oz diposible tanks. Doubt it was a twelve gram i have made co2 cars in college the only burst for like 2 seconds not enough force there.

Who ever said they are going to ban 12 grams paintball guns come on grow up and think before you talk. they havent banned cars yet and they kill alot more people.

[deathstalker]

Originally posted by Siress
I think it was probably a cheap blowback from wally world that someone was stretching the spring on and the plastic velocity adjuster snapped, propelling out of the marker by the air and spring, and unfortunately hitting the woman in a sensitive area.

Maybe now there will be more quality controle on the wal-mart markers. Personaly, I would like to never see another talon or balde in my life. I say that only Model 98's and A SINGLE TYPE of decent blow back, and when PGP's come back sell them in wal-mart too.
Why don't you wait until you know the facts before you start making claims about a RETAILER'S practice of selling a MANUFACTURER'S products. Then wait until you know all the facts about what happened, and see if you can logically link the two.

Your standard blowback's velocity adjuster has spring tension on it, not air pressure. Good luck trying to make one fly out the back of a marker with enough force that someone would die from being struck by it.

I dare you to find one instance in which any level of quality control was determined to be the cause of someone's death. I then double-dare you to find Wal-Mart (or ANY other retailer) to be at fault.

The SAME markers found in Wal-Mart can be purchased at your local shop. PROVE to me that buying at one location has any bearing on the quality of the product you receive.

Stop making the asinine claims that mass retailers, and manufacturers who sell their products there, are the cause of any problems simply because they co-exist.

[Siress]

I'm not one to spend my day posting on forums so I will simplize this for you. Get a reality check, take an economics course, re-read my post, and stay away from the caffeine.

Do you own a wal-mart or something!? I use them for the stereotype! GROW UP!

Now walk away from the topic you stated and tell yourself you were right, I was wrong. Go show all your buddies, e-mail it to your family pet, get your jollies and go away.

*ddiiilet
done

[Quickling]

Who ever said they are going to ban 12 grams paintball guns come on grow up and think before you talk. they havent banned cars yet and they kill alot more people.

Perhaps you should read before you talk. As I continued in my post, I noted that a local field had banned them already for reasons noted... mostly due to already high insurance costs, and the field not wanting ANY incidents... and they felt they saw a possible accident waiting to happen with 12grams.

I was merely hoping it was not a 12gram *which I do not see how it is possible* because I did not want more people to follow my local field.

[Brophog]

If I were to purely speculate based on the information provided, I'd say this may have been a blade, or similiar marker.

Why? They use a single 12 gram in the back of the marker, right behind the valve, at head level. Secondly, they have a very cheap plastic retaining "bucket" with only a couple of course threads.

I could definitely see that bucket flying off and/or shattering, thereby ejecting the 12 gram cartridge back at you.

Its the most logical option. Most tanks are not only threaded onto the ASA, but the valves are generally threaded and loctited onto the cylinder. Its certainly possible one could come flying off, but not as likely.

Most other markers that accept 12 grams will use some kind of metal bucket changer or dropout of some kind. Not as easy to come undone, plus you'd have the weight of the bucket to potentially deal with, thereby lessening the effective energy of the spent 12 gram.

Just a hunch. There really isn't a lot of data to assume much of anything.

P.S. If you've ever tried one, Blades are kinda fun. If they're effective velocity was over 200 fps, they really wouldnt be that bad of markers, for what you pay.

[f3rr3+]

about a month ago a guy i know was filling a armagedon air system and the tank ruptured and swung around in a big semi circle and left a big a... bottom... hole in the wall... compressed anything is some scary sh... stuff. :eek:


**this is just my interpretation of a 2nd hand account, if anyone more directly involved wants to fill any holes, or misconceptions go right ahead**

[Eatem Alive]

It was a 20oz co2 tank. I watched the news report and one of the law enforcement officers demonstrated what the kid reported he was doing, just unscrewing the tank from the a.s.a. attached to the bottom of the grip. they really didn't say exactly what happened except that the tank shot off like a rocket and hit the kid's mother in the head. to me it sounded like the tank unscrewed from the valve which possibly had the safety hole (if it had one) clogged with something. On a sad note it was the kid's birthday who was unscrewing the tank and who's mother was killed. that's one cool mom who would do a paintball birthday for her son and actually stay for it.

[Brophog]

Definitely something fishy with that setup. We have pin valves and ASA relief holes just to stop that sort of thing from happening.

Thanks for the information. We can stop hypothesizing now!

[Abermose]

You can watch a video report where they show the gun and the tank and everything here:
http://www.thekcrachannel.com/news/2854345/detail.html

[Skoad]

to me it looked like he unscrewed the tank from the reg.

[cledford]

I saw this on the 10pm FOX news last night - IT IS FOR REAL. They showed the field, the marker, the bottle, and had video footage of the marker sitting on the trunk of a car in 2 separate parts -gun with asa and pin valve connected and c02 bottle.

It appears to have been a green annoed blow-back style, K-mart special. I couldn't tell the actual manufacturer - but then again they all look the same to me.

Anyhow, they showed the setup and the pin valve (and anti-siphon tube) was still screwed into the bottom line ASA. I bet bottom dollar that what happened what that who ever assembled the bottle (either the manufacture or a store that "upgraded" it to anti-siphon) did not use loc-tite for threads. The kid was probably unscrewing the bottle to get it filled and instead of the pin valve unscrewing from the ASA, it unscrewed from the bottle.

This is going to have HUGE implications for the sport. The safety level for the power source for our markers (C02 bad, HPA worse) is VERY poor. It was only a matter of time before mass produced systems, made in 3rd world nations, or some 13 y/o working at a store killed or got killed by HPA.

I can't imagine the impact this is going to have - paintball might even be shut down over night. I know it is alarmist - but think about it. Virtually EVERY field is insured by the SAME company (I've heard several times there is only one that will provide the coverage). *IF* that is true, as soon as they determine what caused the issue, and realize that it could be lurking on ANY NUMBER of systems out there, they could temporarily pull the "coverage plug" - any field owner with any sense would CEASE business until it all got worked out.

This looks REAL bad.

-Calvin

[Dryden]

OK, I've heard conflicting advice regarding Loc-Tite on the reg/valve. Should you or should you not use it? The argument for is that it holds the two together, the argument against is that it will seal the bleed-off hole in the reg that will vent air if the two begin to come apart.

Second, wouldn't the pressure in the tank be enough to hold the bottle and reg together alone?

You would either have to apply a tremendous amount of force to unscrew a pressurized bottle from the reg, or have a bottle that has severely damaged threads.

RE: the reports of the accident; is there any information yet regarding the date and manufacture of the tank? I don't want to forward speculation regarding the general safety procedures that were or were not followed at this field (there's plenty of that commentary in the linked thread above), but I've read in one report that the equipment was rental, in another that it was not. Whose tank was it, and was it DOT approved and in hydro?

I could easily imagine a recreational field owner not having tanks hydroed every 3 or 5 years. Many field owners (like players) have no clue it's even required.

[FutureMagOwner]

just a thought but why dont they have the tank reg and bottle threading the other way around (i forget the name of it) so when you unscrew the bottle from the gun it would only get tighter not the other way around? (and of course make sure that you cant strip the threads also)

this is why i was thinking of picking up an adjustable tank since the risk of doing such a thing gets much lower

[The-Z-Man]

From the looks of the gun and the tank it seemed as if the tank should just screw right into the gun. But why is there a copper tube comming from the gun?

[FutureMagOwner]

anti syphon tube i do believe it is.

[Smoke]

While this is unfortunate Calvin, I don't forsee this as being the death of our sport.

People didn't stop buying SUV's and Firestone tires when people started dying (rollovers, crap tires, etc.), nor were either banned. I agree that quality in marker tanks is very important, and after this hopefully manufacturers will get the hint that they need to increase their safety.

Like I said, unfortunate as it may be, paintball will live on.

[Beemer]

Kinda like a thread a while back about torque specs on regs and tanks
What I heard is "it dont matter just tighten as tight as you can with wrench" the pressure will keep the tank from unscrewing from the reg.[ya right]

An uneducated uninformed consumer is a companies best friend.
An uneducated uninformed player is the games worst nightmare.



just a thought but why dont they have the tank reg and bottle threading the other way around

Reverse thread what a concept

[Jack & Coke]

very tragic... I'm sad and I feel sorry for the kid and his family. R.I.P.

http://redbox.liquidev.com/~jwigum/Paintball/Valvepic.bmp

[Mindflux]

I dont see any remnants of loctite on that at all :|

[Jack & Coke]

Glenn Palmer over at POG (http://www.paintmagazine.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.pl?forum=8) writes:


Originally posted by GP@PPS


Just as a point of information...

DOT specs do not require "loktite".

Torque spec is 50 ft pounds dry or 35 ft pounds of torque with thread locker sealant.

My guess is that someone did the anti-siphon and scewed the valve into the tank only hand tight.

[riooso]

I saw a news report and the bottle was sitting in the table with very clean threads. You could see how the bottle had been unscrewed from the pin valve assembly. It is unfortunate that this had to happen.

R

[Mindflux]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Glenn Palmer over at POG (http://www.paintmagazine.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.pl?forum=8) writes:



Interesting.

Well I installed an anti-syphon on my bottle the other week, I used Blue 252 on it and wrenched the valve back on. People need to use their brain.

[Jack & Coke]

from: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4297031

http://images.ibsys.com/2004/0218/2854458_200X150.jpg




...An El Dorado County mother throwing a birthday party for her son and a friend has been killed by a malfunctioning paintball gun, according to authorities.


Investigators said a 16-year-old began disassembling his paintball gun at the paintball complex north of Placerville as Monday's birthday party was wrapping up. In an instant, the brass safety fitting that secures the high-pressure air canister to the gun malfunctioned, shooting the air canister toward Colette Controis, according to investigators.

"When it was launched, it was like a torpedo. And it struck the woman in the back of the head as she stood about 8 feet away. She died instantly," said El Dorado County Sheriff's Department spokesman Lt. Kevin House.

Controis' death was witnessed by over 30 children and parents.


The owner of the Placerville paintball store affiliated with the paintball complex said he had never heard of such a malfunction ever happening before. And he said the malfunctioning canister did not come from his store.

El Dorado County Sheriff's investigators are calling the death a clear accident, and no criminal conduct is suspected from anyone involved...



http://images.ibsys.com/2004/0218/2854460_200X150.jpg

[nerobro]

Well.... You guys are missing somethign else. Pin valves are supposed to be foolproof. They have a vent in them. About 1/4 to 1/3 the way down the threads. So that there's suddenly a 1/16" hole int he tank when you try to unscrew it. The tank should have vented almost imediately. I dont' see evidance of that hole. Without that hole, stuff like this can happen.

I think it's time to sue the valve manufacturer.

[hitech]

BTW, this is not the first time someone has been hit by a CO2 bottle being unscrewed from the pin valve. The other time (that I know of) it "only" removed the bottom jaw of the person standing behind the bottle. At the very next tournament EVERYONE had to have their bottles loctited before they were allowed to use them.

Now, this is a MUCH bigger deal. Someone died. However, unscrewing of a bottle has happened before. :(

[hitech]

Originally posted by nerobro
Well....They have a vent in them. About 1/4 to 1/3 the way down the threads. So that there's suddenly a 1/16" hole in the tank when you try to unscrew it.

I have some old pin valves that do not have the hole. I'm assuming they added those after the first accident. I wonder if that hole is a requirement?

[Tom Sparkman]

Originally posted by Dryden
Second, wouldn't the pressure in the tank be enough to hold the bottle and reg together alone?

You would either have to apply a tremendous amount of force to unscrew a pressurized bottle from the reg, or have a bottle that has severely damaged threads.

Since it's a CO2 bottle, the pressure in the bottle is the same as the pressure in the gun - what holds it on is the type of threads and how much it is torqued on.

Tom

[Dryden]

Originally posted by hitech
I have some old pin valves that do not have the hole. I'm assuming they added those after the first accident. I wonder if that hole is a requirement? Yes. I've got 7oz tanks going back 15 years that don't have the blow-off hole in them. The problem though is that this has been pretty standard for about 6 or 7 years now (the other accident mentioned occured 10 years ago). Which means, if the valve didn't have this fail safe, it should not have been in service, since the serviceable life had passed by DOT guidelines.

I think the field owner could be in for a battle if it's found that he filled a faulty, outdated tank.

The problem here, I think, isn't an issue with paintball at all - I don't think the game is in ANY danger by this one tragic occurance. The problem lies in the lack of a DOT regulation that allows consumers to purchase and install aftermarket valves and regulators themselves.

This is something that should only be done by qualified persons.

I think a solution could be to have a specific type of tamper-proof tape that is affixed across the seam after assembly. The tape could have something to the effect of

"Warning: if this label is torn or removed ... yada yada yada"

The real issue here is the lack of information available to new players. A warning label wouldn't solve the problem (God knows we don't need any more warning labels either), but clearly new players need some avenue for education.

[FutureMagOwner]

Originally posted by Beemer
Reverse thread what a concept


just curious because its hard to tell are you being condecending/sarcastic to that or saying thats a good idea, yatta yatta :confused: ;)

yeah while stuff like this is rare it is definantly preventable. simple education can prevent this kinda accident, it'd be nice if when stores sell tanks and guns they explain the dangers seriously and how to identify them and and seriously and heavily note stuff like this at your local fields and such (like when you give the orientation speech would be a good time, maybe even tell people to have more experience players do that kinda stuff for them since it only takes like 2 seconds to unscrew a tank)

[Tyger]

I do know of a story from the "early days" of C/A use of a kid getting his jaw shattered in a similar incident. a 7 ounce tank unscrewed from the valve, shot out of the player's hand, and hit his friend in the jaw.

No new news here, unfortunately. This is why you gotta be CAREFUL when you unscrew your tanks. I've seen CO2 tanks START to unscrew from the valve. Only thing you can do at the field is stop, then get out the wrench. to unscrew it by the valve. Players tend to forget how dangerous our equipment really is.

-Tyger

[Rope a Dope]

I got sick and tired of every message board I go to and read about this story filled with "the hole on the ASA wouldn't prevent this" or people simply having no idea about the bleed holes on valves. So here is a picture of it:

http://home.pacbell.net/zoraks/pinvalve.jpg

Hopefully you'll understand now.

No the tank didn't need loctite, it needed to be torqued on at the proper foot pound spec to start with, and it may or may not of had a bleed hole on the threads which would have prevented what had happened.

It could be possible that the fitting for the anti-siphon tube plugged the hole from the inside or it could not have had one. Although I have taken A LOT of tanks apart at the shop I use to work at and they ALL had this hole on the valve, new and old.

[CoolHand]

I agree with Rope A Dope on this one.

One need not be a rocket scientist to properly assemble valve/tank combo, just enough common sense realize that you must respect the power contained inside there (gonna be ~800 psi inside the tank when you use it).

That said, there does NOT need to be a law governing how you assemble a damned CO2 tank.

For cying out loud people, why bother living your life if you need a situation by situation run down of what to do and what not to do, provided by the government.

Now don't get me wrong, no little kid deserves to watch his mom get killed, nor did the mom deserve to be killed, but I can guarantee you that more laws are not the answer.

If you want to enact a law (not that we need any more mind you), make it mandatory for every person to understand how something functions, before they can use it/buy it. That would stop so many stupid fatalities in every walk of life.

[Bucky]

I saw the report, and talked to an officer later on who told me he was there. he plays paintball, and he believes that it the problem was from the anti siphon not being put on right. like everyone has said previously, it most likely needed to be locktighted, and wasn't.

[Rope a Dope]

Did you not see the picture above? Did you not read the post on another forum where Glenn Palmer stated that DOT does not recommend loctite?

A Co2 tank should NOT blast off if it is un-screwed from the valve, that what the hole on the threads is for.

Now for the tank un-screwing in the first place, the valve should have been torqued on to spec, not loctited. Every brand new tank that I have anti-siphoned did NOT have any loctite on the threads, it was however, torqued on to spec.

Next person that mentions loctite I'm gonna find them and loctite their *** cheeks together! http://www.valleythunder.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_mad.gif

[rdb123]

Originally posted by Siress
...I will simplize this for you....take an economics course...

Uhhhh, why would you randomly tell him to take an economics course?

[FutureMagOwner]

coolhand i dont think anyone here was suggesting making a law (that wouldnt make sense anyway in this situation) i think they should make sure that people respect what they are using before they buy it but things being such that probably wont happen

[RingOfScale]

does anyone know, was the woman there playing paintball, or did she just happen to be walking nearby ?

[sneakyhacker420]

Originally posted by nerobro
I think it's time to sue the valve manufacturer. or whoever installed the anti-siphon :(

[NoFearPaintballer]

www.pbstar.com they got it there fullcovereage . and people learn form this co2 sucks and watch your reg when unscrewing you tank i dont know ow many times my co2 tank screwedoff and not the reg last year.



*edit* WOOPS i didnt see the pics nor read

[riooso]

I have seen the hole in the valve a ways down the threads. If the dip tube is improperly installed (screwed in to far) it can cover the hole. Whether it is reccommended or not. Most shops put on some kind of sealant and I think it is a good idea!

Riooso

[Beemer]

very tragic... I'm sad and I feel sorry for the kid and his family. R.I.P.
Me too


just curious because its hard to tell are you being condecending/sarcastic to that or saying thats a good idea

Sorry, as in good idea.


Pin valves are supposed to be foolproof.

Not after a faulty mod. Can you say reverse thread?


The real issue here is the lack of information available to new players


Every brand new tank that I have anti-siphoned did NOT have any loctite on the threads, it was however, torqued on to spec.


No the tank didn't need loctite, it needed to be torqued on at the proper foot pound spec to start with,


(God knows we don't need any more warning labels either), but clearly new players need some avenue for education.



Originally posted by Mindflux


Interesting.

Well I installed an anti-syphon on my bottle the other week, I used Blue 252 on it and wrenched the valve back on. People need to use their brain.

And was this wrench a torque wrench of some type?????, and if not you know it was torqued to spec HOW?


Players tend to forget how dangerous our equipment really is.


i dont know ow many times my co2 tank screwedoff and not the reg last year.

And since you are informed and educated you have this fixed so it will not happen any more?

[Evil Bob]

The sad truth is this was easily a preventable accident simply by educating the owner of the marker to the potential problems his equipment may have and the owner paying close attention to what they were doing during disassembly.

Many of us have seen our tanks unscrew from the regs, but we usually go "hey, that isn't supposed to do that" and do the smart thing and screw it back on before something detrimental happens.

Odds are the teen involved was chatting with his friends when he was removing the bottle and simply wasn't paying attention.

-Evil Bob

[Crazy]

did i mentioned she got it good in the face?

[AGD]

The first guy to get hit in the head with an unscrewed tank loaned his gun to his friend who unscrewed it off the reg while the two were walking down the road. The guy got blashed by his own gun.

Lock tight IS NOT suposed to be used on tank threads, they are suposed to be TORQUED on with a special strap wrench. If you take a reg off and put it back on expect to get sued if it hurts someone.

No other industry in the world uses inline threads the way we do because of this very problem. They all use some form of 90 degree fitting. Why we do I will not get into because I have vented enough in other threads today.

The vent hole in the tank threads is a paintball industry inovation not found elsewhere. There is no standard on it so people just drill them where ever. Some were drilled too close to the oring and caused a weak spot and the valve would just break off. Do you have one of those?

Mounting the valve on a gun which is basically a two foot long lever and then diving into a bunker is an overall bad idea. Only ONE regulator on the market has a fail safe shut off if the reg breaks off. Three letters, starts with A, you can guess the rest.

AGD

[sneakyhacker420]

Originally posted by AGD
Mounting the valve on a gun which is basically a two foot long lever and then diving into a bunker is an overall bad idea. Only ONE regulator on the market has a fail safe shut off if the reg breaks off. Three letters, starts with A, you can guess the rest.

AGD /me gets up and hugs his 68/45 flatine :D


(and yes, i did just hug my tank)

[Rope a Dope]

Originally posted by AGD
Only ONE regulator on the market has a fail safe shut off if the reg breaks off. Three letters, starts with A, you can guess the rest.

AGD

Oooooh!!! So thats what the ball bearing does, huh?

I had my Flatline apart and I wanted to blast some air out of that hole cause I was cleaning it, I slowly and just barely opened the on/off, there was only about 700psi in the tank and that little ball bearing plugged the hole and only a tiny amount of air flowed through the hole on the sides.

Tom.. you seriously need to design the next mars lander for NASA, complete with robotic arm that can hold a Mag :)

[nerobro]

Originally posted by AGD
No other industry in the world uses inline threads the way we do because of this very problem. They all use some form of 90 degree fitting. Why we do I will not get into because I have vented enough in other threads today.

The vent hole in the tank threads is a paintball industry inovation not found elsewhere. There is no standard on it so people just drill them where ever. Some were drilled too close to the oring and caused a weak spot and the valve would just break off. Do you have one of those?

There are a lot of things that make me nervous in paintball. One reaons I avoid tanks with screw on regs is the failures I KNOW can happen. I've seen the top half of a PE reg unscrew from the bottom half. That leaves you with a 3000 or 4500psi rocket

I only used a screw in tank last friday becuase I don't have a SS adjustable reg available yet. :-) If you look at what's on my spyder, and my cocker. They both have SS regs.

I in fact do have a reg with some problems with the vent hole in the valve. The brass valve on my maxflow was severely overtorqued and streached out. I may still have it to show at the next AO meet. That tank is why I didn't have nitro at shatnerball.

An industry standard tank sealing system would be relitively easy to institute. The necesssary bits are cheap/easy to produce And the hardest bit woudl be convincing mfgs to be willing to make the threaded part on the reg longer.

I think all paintball valves should have that vent hole.... and the "sealing pin" that the flatline has...

Think, should be, and is, are all very different.

The flatline is the model for how n2 tanks should be made.

[FutureMagOwner]

another reason for me to buy a flat line! :D

EDIT: and curley i cant believe even you had the lack of brains to say something like that :mad: :(

[SeeK]

Originally posted by Dryden
Yes. I've got 7oz tanks going back 15 years that don't have the blow-off hole in them. The problem though is that this has been pretty standard for about 6 or 7 years now (the other accident mentioned occured 10 years ago). Which means, if the valve didn't have this fail safe, it should not have been in service, since the serviceable life had passed by DOT guidelines.

I think the field owner could be in for a battle if it's found that he filled a faulty, outdated tank.

The problem here, I think, isn't an issue with paintball at all - I don't think the game is in ANY danger by this one tragic occurance. The problem lies in the lack of a DOT regulation that allows consumers to purchase and install aftermarket valves and regulators themselves.

This is something that should only be done by qualified persons.

...

The real issue here is the lack of information available to new players. A warning label wouldn't solve the problem (God knows we don't need any more warning labels either), but clearly new players need some avenue for education.

Unless the valve was partially unscrewed there is no way for the filler to know if it was defective unless they tried to unscrew it by hand. Even this wouldn't be a good test since you probably won't be able to generate enough force against the remaining pressure.
A DOT reg won't really do much to solve the problem if you do it yourself.

Does anybody know the size of tank involved? Tanks under 2" in diameter are exempt from hydro testing.

[cledford]

It was a 20oz.

-Calvin

[robdamanii]

The marker was a Kingman Spyder Victor as well.

Sad story...I feel for them on this one. That airsmith is going to have his *** handed to him for the tank mishap.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by AGD
...Only ONE regulator on the market has a fail safe shut off if the reg breaks off...AGD

Might be inappropriate to make a funny here but here is a point we do not even bother to sell. And should.

"The Flatline high pressure air Paintball tank from AGD. Our tanks got balls!"

[Dryden]

Originally posted by SeeK
A DOT reg won't really do much to solve the problem if you do it yourself.Right. I wasn't trying to suggest that there needs to be new laws passed or DOT regulations - it was more like a stream of consciousness rambling. My feeling though is that there is a problem with the concept of the do-it-yourself reg.

I think it's a great idea if company X wants to market their Flatline, Max-Flo, or whatever. My concern though is that the valve/reg assembly is available separate from the tank.

If accidents such as this occur again (and they will, given the level of knowledge of the people I'm seeing in the sport today), then the government will eventually step in.

The industry needs to tackle this problem before some agency does it for them.

Frankly, I'm terrified everytime I see these young kids doing self fills from their SCUBA gear.

[lamby]

First I would like to say that I feel for the family in this time of loss. The Kid must be in hell right now knowing that he killed his own mother. This is very sad and tragic.

Second, let this be an eye opener to every baller out there. Look out for each other on the field. As you know a full HPA tank is a bomb and has the power to lift a semi off the ground. It will sever limbs, decapitate, or blow through walls. (we had safety tapes that we had to watch in high school shop class that showed the power of a full oxigen tank being both exploded and having a reg sheared off. Having the reg sheared off was amazing, the tank went through a conctete wall that was 1 foot thick.)Now granted our tanks are smaller, but they have more pressure and have alot of stored energy.

Let this tragidy have a positive effect. teach others about safety and let us not have another tank related injury.

I am the most anal person in the world when it comes to HPA. I know what it can do and I respect that power.

Gets off soap box.

[Beemer]

If accidents such as this occur again (and they will, given the level of knowledge of the people I'm seeing in the sport today), then the government will eventually step in.

The industry needs to tackle this problem before some agency does it for them.

Frankly, I'm terrified everytime I see these young kids doing self fills from their SCUBA gear.


I am the most anal person in the world when it comes to HPA

Me to but for over all SAFETY.


Gets off soap box.
Get back on and make some room for me

Players just arent educated or informed enough.

Dont need to change Gog lenses after close direct hits
Play with cracked lenses is ok
Dont need to follow torque specs on regs
Hair triggers arent dangerous.
ROF and safety arent related
ASTM standards dont really mean much
Industry agreements are made then broken
Is my Gun disabled and safe when I leave the field?

Not if the crap will hit the fan but WHEN. Just a matter of time.

[Rope a Dope]

http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/av?query=paintball&invocationType=avTab./aol/remote_form.jsp

[shartley]

Originally posted by Y-Grip
This could have been prevented if the kid with the marker had dry fired while unscrewing the tank. You don't just unscrew a tank off a marker with all that force inside of the system. At least of you are dry firing at the same time most of the gas will come out the barrel and not out of the ASA. There should have been enough Co2 pressure inside the tank to keep the valve from unscrewing itself.
This would not have worked in this case, sorry. I take it you have not read about how it actually happned? I have not read all of the posts on AO about it, but have read Glenn Palmer’s post about it. And he goes into how it happened. Also, there is a hole that should prevent this from happening between the tank and the valve, and that was filled with some “gunk” (I think that is what he called it). There were many things that were wrong with this setup and tank. And any one being correct could have prevented this… not simply degassing the marker by shooting it while unscrewing the tank.

[CoolHand]

I think the simpliest fix that people are missing here (other than the correct torque specs), is an On/Off Valve, in leau of the pin valve, or a pin valve with an On/Off ASA.

The tank valve type On/Off's work like champs, and I have them on every CO2 tank I own. Turn the knob, dry fire the marker until its degassed, disassemble.

Or, if you gotta use a pin valve (dunno why you would), you can use an On/Off ASA. Every one of them that I have owned/used has had a blowoff hole that opens up when you back the activation knob off enough, which vents the system prior to disassembly.

This safety debate is great, I am happy to see everyone paying attention to the hazards around us, and discussing ways to reduce the risk.

I just don't want people to overlook the proven solutions that are already out there.

[Jack & Coke]

- shooting the gun while unscewing the CO2 tank from your ASA is for saving your orings. Failing to shoot your gun while unscrewing the tank from the ASA will NOT turn your tank into a deadly rocket. Unscrewing your tank from it's valve will (if the vent hole is plugged).

- It doesn't matter if it was an on/off valve or a pin valve. If the tank is unscrewed from the valve (which it was), you are going to have the same dangerous problem (if the vent hole is plugged).

note: most of the time, this "gunk" which plugs up the vent hole is improperly applied locktite. It gets pooled into that spot as the the valve is re-installed back into the tank after an anti-syphon tube is installed.

[CoolHand]

You guys are totally missing the point.

The the tank unscrewed from the reg was because it was improperly torqued. The safety hole was plugged, so when it was done uscrewing, away it went. The reason that the kid was able to overcome the pressure in the tank, and twist it off the valve was due to the pressure being equal on both sides of the valve. What the fellow above was saying about dry firing the marker, and what I was saying about using On/Offs, greatly reduce the likelyhood of this ever happening, due to their ability to release the pressure in the mark side of the air system. This unbalances the forces on the valve, and allows you to unscrew a tank whos valve is only on hand tight, with no problems.

The pressure in the tank will keep the valve tight, unless you have some thing that is applying an equal or greater force to the valve to hold it stationary. When the marker is pressurized, its like having the valve in a vise, it provides leverage (in the form of the marker) to screw the tank off the valve. If you bleed the marker side of the air system before you try take anything apart, there is no force there to hold the valve stationary, so the pressure in the tank is applying the greater (by several orders of magnitude) force, and the tank/valve combo unscrews from the ASA.

Now, does that mean that the tank can never uncrew from the valve? Certainly not, but it does mean that very little force is need to remove the tank when the marker is degassed. If you have a hard time turning it, you know something is wrong, and you can check to see what it is.

I would suspect that the tank coming off the valve did not feel any different to that fellow, than unscrewing the tank/valve combo from a pressurized ASA, thus he didn't even know anything was wrong until it was WAY too late.

[Jack & Coke]

I wonder just how tight the valve is stuck in this ASA...

http://redbox.liquidev.com/~jwigum/Paintball/Valvepic.bmp

[Jack & Coke]

from:http://www.paintmagazine.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.pl?forum=8&thread=11406

Glenn Palmer writes (Posted Wednesday, Feb 25, 2004 @ 08:41 PM)


Originally posted by GP@PPS


Just for those waiting to know what I saw during the inspection of the equipment.

The only thing that I saw wrong with any of the hardware was: There were no signs that the valve had been tightened sufficiently into the tank and there was no sign of chemical bonding materials having been used at the last installation of the valve. However, the Safety vent hole in valve neck was plugged with an unknown substance.

Another contributing factor was that the anti-siphon tube was installed in such a way as to require that the tank/valve be tightened fully into the ASA to put the tube in the appropriate position.

IMHO, the hardware itself is not the issue but the handling of it is.

Apparently, the complete rig was bought off of the internet. As is.

Sherriff's dept. investigation not yet complete and there has bee no word about who may have done the anti-siphon modifcation.

That's about all I have on it at this time.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by CoolHand
The the tank unscrewed from the reg was because it was improperly torqued.

That’s correct.


Originally posted by CoolHand
The safety hole was plugged, so when it was done unscrewing, away it went.

As is that.


Originally posted by CoolHand
The reason that the kid was able to overcome the pressure in the tank, and twist it off the valve was due to the pressure being equal on both sides of the valve.

Now, I really don’t know what you’re talking about. Pressure in the bottle has NOTHING to do with whether the valve can be unscrewed or not. The valve assembly (whether it’s an on/off or a pin valve) is screwed into the tank and torqued. If you want to remove a valve assembly from a tank, you’ll find little difference in removing one from a pressurised tank or an empty one. That’s why you make sure the tank is unpressurised (in a controlled safe manner) before doing and work on the valve.

I think you've misunderstood exactly which piece unscerwed from what. Look at J&C's picture.

In fact, without removing/unscrewing the valve, and on/off equipped tank could do the same ‘fly-away’ if the equipment is not maintained properly. If the valve is left open and the safety hole in the ASA is blocked, the tank will take-off as soon as the valve is unscrewed from the ASA.

In some respects that makes a pin valve far safer. To vent pressure you have to push on the pin against tank pressure and the valve will naturally close when the pin is no longer depressed. An on/off can be opened without the tank being on the marker, which would result in an instant rocket.

[Jack & Coke]

From Glenn Palmer, who is helping with the investigation:

http://www.paintmagazine.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.pl?forum=8&thread=11406


Originally posted by GP@PPS on March 25, 2004

...I was interviewed again by local channel 13 news people today for a follow-up report (10 pm tonight) on what is being done. Their report is supposedly going out "on the wire" for national broadcast and it is being tied in to the CPSC report that was also published today.

I think the reporter is doing a good job in getting his info accurate and his focus seems to be in support of the husband of the victim that has been in DC lobbying for federal legislation to impose strick safety controls for our equipment. However, so far it seems that they are not coming down on Paintball equipment in general but trying to establish an awareness to the potential hazards of high pressure tanks.

Also, from conversation with the reporter, it appears that the young fellow that owned the equipment had in fact been doing some modifications on his own (including the anti-siphon) and not bought the equipment "as-is" over the internet, as he had originally claimed.

[FutureMagOwner]

and based on my local news paper the death toll has increased from 1 to 2 now...

[Beemer]

And what will the C.P.S.C. say when they find out alot of these e markers dont meet A.S.T.M. Safety standards-ie bad bounce,1 shot 1 pull.

Anybody know what happened to Lawn Darts{Jarts} back in the 70s and why?

How come tanks are mounted by the reg and not the tank.Glad to have a Safe FlatLine with a Fail safe if the reg breaks.

Plastic air line is safer then S.S. I want some

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Beemer
Plastic air line is safer then S.S. I want some

What?!? :eek:

I seriously hope you were being sarcastic.

One of these days paintball risks being SERIOUSLY regulated.

Only in paintball are individual users allowed to fill their tanks. With SCUBA or Firefighting SCBA, a trained person does the fill and the fill is done inside and explosion-proof container.

[madmatt151]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


What?!? :eek:

I seriously hope you were being sarcastic.

One of these days paintball risks being SERIOUSLY regulated.

Only in paintball are individual users allowed to fill their tanks. With SCUBA or Firefighting SCBA, a trained person does the fill and the fill is done inside and explosion-proof container.

I have to strongly agree with this statement. I can't tell you how scared I get everytime I go to Skirmish in PA and watch all the little 13 year olds filling thier own tanks, unsupervised! I mean there is this big button that you press and it fills your tank. I know there is probably some regulator that prevents mor than 4000 or so PSI going into your tank, but it still scares me. It is one of the reasons I don't go there very often. I am waitig for a similiar accident like this one to happen there one day, god forbid. There has to be rules regarding the filling of tanks etc. The local scuba shop by me can't believe that paintball fields do "fast" fills. Everytime my tank comes back and its hot because of the fast fill I wait to take it back from the guy who filled it. When he asks me why I am waiting I tell him just in case it is gonna explode, it can do it in his hands. That heat is NOT a good thing.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by madmatt151
I have to strongly agree with this statement. I can't tell you how scared I get everytime I go to Skirmish in PA and watch all the little 13 year olds filling thier own tanks, unsupervised!

Just look at the enclosures SCBA fills are done in.
And they fill them slow and cooled by water.

http://www.americanairworks.com/fill.html

I mean, paintballers are probably rougher on the equipment, inspect it less, hang the bottle by the regulator, and paintballers stand around doing fast fills right next to the tank! :eek:

If the pros use "fragmentation deflectors" it's because they've experienced a fragmentaion or two too many.

It's only a matter of time until some kid is turned into chutney while filling their tank.

At a minimum, the gun should be placed in a stand and the whole thing be covered by an enclosure while the tank is filling.

Holy !!:eek: I just read the whole of the page I linked to:

IMPORTANT!
During the last 5 years, approximately ten SCUBA, SCBA and DOT compressed air cylinders have exploded each year. 90% of these cylinders exploded while being refilled. ---- Bill High of PSI, Inc.

Percentage wise that's not a huge risk. But it IS happening.

Why ARE paintballers allowed to be so careless?