Is this what Tom "really" thinks of AO?

[luke]

Here is a quote of Toms from another thread, I figure the topic is worthy of it's own.....


Originally posted by AGD

If someone told me to make a gun for me I would make a millisecond reacting valve system that could take 4500 psi directly into the chamber to recharge.

If I had to make a gun for all of you I would make an electro pneumatic with a really nice body.

AGD


This is not fair!

To assume this, rubs me wrong. Many of us have stuck with you for longer than you may know. From the beginning, threw the hype of the "new" electro era, and here we are today.

You've been dropping hints about your ideas for a new gun/valve, but assume no one is interested. It bugs me that it bothers you that people want a cool looking gun. Why can't we have both? You sold us one the RT valve now your pissed because people want choices when it comes to bodies and grip frames. We have performance, naturally looks would come next.

Perhaps YOU HAVE BRAIN WASHED US with hype on the RT valve, perhaps you've convinced us that nothing else can top the RT, so ask your self who's fault is it, yours or ours? Can the RT valve be put to shame? If it can, go for it, I don't see how it could go wrong.

I get the feeling that you are becoming more and more calloused when it comes to us (AO). It seems you are grouping AO more and more with the hype followers in the industry. You have made up your mind that we wouldn't want you to build this gun before you even bothered to ask.

I say, if you have a new idea, GO FOR IT! Most of the players in the industry are waiting (have been for years) for something brand new from AGD. (weather something new was warranted or not)

[JEDI]

Hmm, interesting to say the least. I'd love to see something new. I'd have to say I agree.

[shartley]

New, whether warranted or not, is what drives every industry. There is a saying… if you are not going forward, you are falling behind. And perception drives the marketplace as much as reality.

I think the best thing to happen to AGD in the past couple years are the new body/rail styles and LX (for those who NEED it)… NOT the X-Valve, or anything else. It is the ability to have a marker that LOOKS different than all the other Mags out there. It is the ability to customize your marker to make it truly a one of a kind.

It is also what helps put Mags on the same visual scale as the other markers out there…. well, at least for a while. We now see the other companies (look at what Manike has been doing for one example) taking their visuals a step further.

Looks ARE important. It is what helps us pick our mates, our homes, our cars, our clothes, and just about everything else we buy… to include the food we EAT (because of packaging).

This does not mean that AGD has to ignore quality if they put more effort into the other things consumers WANT. Nor does it mean that by focusing on other aspects of the overall design of their markers does it mean that the marker will be any less reliable or standard of quality as it was before. It does not have to be one or the other.

I for one would LOVE to see a new mid range marker from AGD that is not dependent on HPA. I would like a setup that works just a well with both CO2 and HPA. While HPA is becoming more and more available, it still is lacking in many areas…. And more so for those who have their own private fields. Sure folks can get scuba setups, or invest in a compressor, but CO2 is still FAR easier to get fills for and the tanks cost virtually nothing when compared to good HPA tanks.

[robdamanii]

For some reason I believe that what Tom is saying is that today a lot of the reason people buy markers is for the "cool factor".

"Dude, I got a Lasoya Timmy."
"Dude, I got a Naughty Dogs Cocker."
"Dude, I got a dynasty shocker."
"Dude, I got a (insert marker here)."

This is what I think Tom means. He wants to sell something he KNOWS will be a quality product, and also sell well beyond the borders of AO, because let's face it, there are a lot more players out there than just the ones here on AO.

Only he knows for sure what he means.

[thecavemankevin]

i don't know what thread this came from and would like to see it, that way i can make a better judgment for myself as the the context of AGD's response.

However, from what i have seen in the past, i think Tom is getting a little frustrated. Afterall, he does his best to produce a marker that he hopes/thinks and gets great response about (if you haven't figured it out i am speeking of the xmag). He has also produced a great deal of new products over the past year or two, with things like ULE bodies, ULT, LX, y-grip and so on. I think his frustration comes when people (including long AGD supporters) start crying because they don't like something.

afterall, if you can recall a year or two ago people where yelling up to high heaven that they wanted the zgrip back. But Tom was smart and knew that it still would not catch on very well like it didn't the first time through. And now more than ever people are switching to electro which would decrease the demand for it even more. He instead went with the y-grip which he must have felt was a happy medium which was not too drastic and caustic looking like the z. However, that still hasn't caught on all that great, primarily due to everyone and their mother wanting electro.

Tom might not be a marketing genious, but he is smart enough to know that the markets are crying for high end, high bps, low pressure, great looking markers. He is just trying to give the market what they want. And who can blame him if he gets frustrated when the market b***es right back at him for it.

Now i think it would be nice if he asked us if we were interested in his new design, but at the same time he gets such mixed signals from everyone here on AO, it can be hard to read what we want. So if he did introduce something new based on what people here on Ao saying they would deffinatly buy it, yet it didn't catch on at all. It could sink AGD (don't forget, they are still a very small company when compared to the likes of SP, Delta, WGP and so on).

Tom is an inovator plan and simple. But it can be very difficult (and frustrating) for an inovator to survive in a followeres world. Afterall, how would you like it if you poured your heart and soul into something YOU KNEW was better than all the rest, but no one would listen to you. You would certainly be frustrated

[Miscue]

I don't think you're understanding what he's talking about... it doesn't mean anything bad. People get more excited over flash than a marker that gets the job done. You'll notice that paintball players have a preoccupation with, and place a priority on guns that look cool, low-pressure, etc. etc... and various things that have no bearing upon how well the marker functions.

My gun is pimped out yo! Da SHizzle ma DiZzle!

vs.

My marker's regulator recharges nearly instantaneously.

[shartley]

Originally posted by robdamanii
For some reason I believe that what Tom is saying is that today a lot of the reason people buy markers is for the "cool factor".

"Dude, I got a Lasoya Timmy."
"Dude, I got a Naughty Dogs Cocker."
"Dude, I got a dynasty shocker."
"Dude, I got a (insert marker here)."

This is what I think Tom means. He wants to sell something he KNOWS will be a quality product, and also sell well beyond the borders of AO, because let's face it, there are a lot more players out there than just the ones here on AO.

Only he knows for sure what he means.
I agree…. But for one factor….

You don’t have to have one or the other. And if you WANT a marker to sell well outside the borders of AO you need to do what is proven to SELL outside of AO. ;) Making a marker “cool” or look good, does not mean you can’t have a quality product.

I personally have seen Tom resist change time and again. All you have to do is look back to his comments on aluminum bodies, aluminum valves, fancy designs, etc. His first reactions to change, or requests for change, have been to lash out at the customer or try to demean them in some way for wanting more than what he is giving. I don’t say this to be rude, but to be honest.

Then when Tom does change, it seems to work out just fine for the most part.

Originally posted by Miscue
I don't think you're understanding what he's talking about... it doesn't mean anything bad. People get more excited over flash than a marker that gets the job done. You'll notice that paintball players have a preoccupation with, and place a priority on guns that look cool, low-pressure, etc. etc... and various things that have no bearing upon how well the marker functions.

My gun is pimped out yo! Da SHizzle ma DiZzle!

vs.

My marker's regulator recharges nearly instantaneously.
Again, but why can’t you have BOTH? There is no logical explanation that would say you can’t.

Plus let’s be totally honest about things, ALL markers now days tend to be more than is actually NEEDED. The base level of quality and performance has risen to a level that big deals are now being made over what I consider relatively insignificant “advances” as they pertain to actually USING the markers. And the most important aspect as I see it now days is not recharge rate, or even CPS/BPS, it is LOADER abilities, since markers now days seem to be able to far outshoot the loading systems anyways.

I guess it is a matter of whether you are a number’s person, or a “reality” person. Myself… I am a reality person. If my marker can already outshoot my hopper, what good does it do ME to have a marker that has the capability to recharge faster or SHOOT faster? So what do I do? I look at the OTHER aspects of the marker, price, looks, comfort, etc.

But then again… I may be the ONLY one who does this… but I doubt it.

[Miscue]

You could have both, it just costs more to make. :p

But, if I had to choose one over the other... I'd side with performance. The kiddies want the shiny gun with sparkles.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Miscue
You could have both, it just costs more to make. :p

But, if I had to choose one over the other... I'd side with performance. The kiddies want the shiny gun with sparkles.
LOL I agree! But like I stated, performance is ALREADY there. ;) You don’t have to take a step backwards in performance to take a few steps forward with shine and sparkles. ;):D

[Hexis]

There are still some geeks in paintball that value performance over looks. I'm one of them. This does not mean I don't appreaciate a good looking gun. But I use a ULE Emag. I like the clean lines and outright performance of it. I think that in general the folks that are not driven by hype will find AGD a nice option. Those folks are a minority of the players.

[JEDI]

Originally posted by shartley
There is a saying… if you are not going forward, you are falling behind.And perception drives the marketplace as much as reality.


This is sooo true. The second part even more so.Tom needs to realize how important perception is. His biggest accomplishment would be to forever burry the "mags s*ck" opinion of many a baller.

[Patron God of Pirates]

Could you post a link to the other thread? I'd like to see Toms comment in context.

That said, if your assertion is true, is it so hard to understand why Tom might get a little frustrated? For years AGD has been one of very few companies creating meaningful innovations (since the beginning really). And it has not brought AGD back to the top. People jump all over looks and buzz words and somehow basic functionality; switching between manual and electro, never chopping, grip frames that adhere to how paintball is played, get overlooked.

We sit here and say the problem is marketing, or looks. But seriously, can either of those explain the success of the Viking!? That was a grass roots thing. Can you get anymore grass roots than AO?

Building a better mouse trap does not work. What you need to do is find the guy in charge of "the next buzz word" and kill him.

Before LX it was "Mags are blenders" Buzzword: Chop

Before ULE it was "Mags are heavy" Buzzword: Weight

Now it's "Mags are gas hogs" Buzzword: Efficiency / Low Pressure

Now if he can find a way to change the buzzword to "Recharge".....

Anyhow, I would love to have a valve that would recharge in 1 millisecond and take 4500 PSI straight.

[Bolter]

its like when the X valves had the writing a little skew and Tom was like "hey if you send em back i'll change it for a new valve" and everyone was going mad over this and sending in their valves.

I kept mine. Whats the difference? If it works 100% then cool surely? I mean yeah if it comes to you all scratched up then exchange, but seriously, cause the writing was off by millimeters, AGD lost out on loads of money.

I was just having a conversation with someone today on a similar subject. I sent him a picture of Cphils new dealer bits gun. And they said wow thats the first mag thats looked decent, but it ain't nothin over the DM4 or A4. I commented that blenders look nice but the mag/Emag/Xmag will out perform anything out there and STILL not chop paint. It should be about performance, over looks anyday.

[epterry]

I do not post all that much on AO, but I read almost everything. From my observation AO has more and more people who think that low presser /(insert stupid rap sounding stuff) makes your marker/gat:rolleyes: better. This may be because the number of members has gone up and those people have the most time/shout the loudest but I really do not know. Tom also realizes that the market does not want a scientifically proven design they just want purple. Therefore, if he were to make a marker he would make one that would sell. Btw Tom how heavy would a valve be that could take 4500 psi?:cool:

[luke]

Original thread>>>
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125753

qoute shartly
"New, whether warranted or not, is what drives every industry. There is a saying… if you are not going forward, you are falling behind. And perception drives the marketplace as much as reality."

:) YES! You nailed it. I agree completely. (I was speaking from Toms perspective.)

[luke]

Originally posted by Miscue
You could have both, it just costs more to make. :p

But, if I had to choose one over the other... I'd side with performance. The kiddies want the shiny gun with sparkles.

You got it bro! This is the point of my post exactly! I get the feeling that Tom thinks AO is slipping into the world of hype. I disagree, some maybe, but not the majority.

[Joni]

Originally posted by epterry
Btw Tom how heavy would a valve be that could take 4500 psi?:cool:

Just look at any preset system...not all that heavy, eh =)

[luke]

Originally posted by shartley

LOL I agree! But like I stated, performance is ALREADY there. ;) You don’t have to take a step backwards in performance to take a few steps forward with shine and sparkles. ;):D

;) You got it. Toms has told us it gets no better than the Rt, now all we need is something "purty".

BUT, recently he's dangling this carrot in our face saying he can build a better performing valve, but wont because of marketing hype on low pressure guns. That's not fair, he is assuming all of the market would ignore him. I disagree....

[Barfly]

well isn't the pressure that mags shoot low pressure? that is the way I understand it, it might not be like 60psi. It just takes a higher input pressure into the marker to help it recharge faster.

[gibby]

For me, my main focus in upgrading my mag was performance performance performance!!! With each new upgrade, my mag has evolved into something that out performed a lot of the "pretty" markers out there. The need to compete forced me to jump on the electro bandwagon. So...I got my first emag. Now that I've done everything I can to make my emag perform to the best of its ability...I look back and say...what more can I do to it to make it perform better? The answer...nothing for right now.

With that said, I do have pride in what I have and how it works. Others have seen how it works and they've been more than impressed. More like surprised that "it's a mag."

Well now, I sit back again and ask...what else? The next step is to make it look unique, to make it look nice as it's a reflection of the pride I have in my markers, the need to show people...you can have performance as good as it looks.

Is that so wrong? I don't think so. I think this all happens through change...and boy, has my mag changed since I first got it! And it keeps on changing today...(to be continued):D

[robdamanii]

Originally posted by shartley

I agree…. But for one factor….

You don’t have to have one or the other. And if you WANT a marker to sell well outside the borders of AO you need to do what is proven to SELL outside of AO. ;) Making a marker “cool” or look good, does not mean you can’t have a quality product.

I personally have seen Tom resist change time and again. All you have to do is look back to his comments on aluminum bodies, aluminum valves, fancy designs, etc. His first reactions to change, or requests for change, have been to lash out at the customer or try to demean them in some way for wanting more than what he is giving. I don’t say this to be rude, but to be honest.

Then when Tom does change, it seems to work out just fine for the most part.


That's what I meant from my post; Tom wants to make a product that HE himself is proud to know is a very high quality product. But he's also saying that to sell volumes of it, it would have to look the part as well as perform well.

Personally, I've had my mag called ugly, I've had it called crap, but I can always counter "Hey, it may not look hot like your snazzy impulse, but it will still not chop, put ball on ball on ball, and have a hell of a lower profile. Oh yeah, and not to mention I've got the best reg on the market built into my valve. What's that about your maxflow now?"

I think Toms on the right track here. The karta bodies for example...if he did something like that for his electro (if that's indeed what he would do), there would be a lot of interest I think in the marker. Something like a logic framed electro with a slick body that could do big BPS and look the part doing it would put AGD right into the forefront of the market, IMO.

[epterry]

On a valve that took 4500psi how hard would the trigger pull be? Also what kind of hose would you use? :cool:

[SlartyBartFast]

I'm with those that say it's not unreasonable to expect both.

If TK wants to concentrate on function and not form, let him. But, he should open his horizons a little when it comes to marketing and sales. Make a plain, fully functional marker that can then be modified by anyone.

Look at how many versions of the Timmie, Matrix, etc are out there. The same COULD be done with AGD products. But, you'd have to have a product where the function critical tolererances were buried inside. So far we've had teh AGDE X-mag and the SFL EMag.

I think AGDs current approach with the custom RT-pro is great. But if they want to really expand their horizons, they should push sales of raw components to custom shops. TK has repeatedly complained about the thin profit margin on these high-end custom guns, so I don't see why he wouldn't embrace dropping AGD involvement in the final product. AGD could concentrate of the higher profit area of raw components and internals for custom shops and basic setups for the retail distributors.

[Quickling]

Also what kind of hose would you use?

Um.... can't you use the same steel braided that puts that 4500psi in your tank?:confused:

[tyrion2323]

I don't think that mags need anything extra.

xMags and karta/chord2 eMags are, simply put, the most attractive markers on the market. They outperform almost anything, they don't chop, and if Tom offered one to me, I'd drop my Omen (which I LOVE) and I'd proudly shoot AGD.

There's all these people b*tching and complaining about looks/weight/whatever. GET OVER IT.

Edit: In fact, I just got off the phone with my man Chris Corcino at Hybrid - he's hella cool - and he was saying that he wished that there were more mags around him so that Hybrid could warrant making 'mag parts. Tom - maybe you should talk to him...

I think that a viable solution could be:

Tom, if you're reading, I'd be willing to do some labor for you if you need. I don't know what that would mean, but I could assemble markers for free in my spare time, etc.... I'd do it all for FREE.

Jacob

[AGD]

GREAT THREAD!!! :)

Yes I dropped that line seeing if it would get a reaction and AO comes through once again. By "you" I don't mean AO I mean the collective paintball community that judges paintball products.

I have ALWAYS had the utmost respect for the people on this forum thats why I post virtually every day. If I am here all the time you get my good with my bad. I am super happy that everyone really likes the Tac-one even if they are not scenario guys. I am super frustrated by the paintball communitys (larger not AO) lack of interest in the big politics going on inside the industry.

Ballers are ALWAYS asking for something new, looks, performace, specs, price etc. Even though they may be completely oposite like more performance for less price they ask anyway as they should.

You want stuff and thats great, myself as a manufacturer and to stay in business, should move in the direction YOU desire. In the old days this was true, now this isn't and let me explain. If "you" ask for a hopper I can't give it to you because the patents are all locked up. If "you" ask for an electronic gun I can't give it to you because I could go to court. If "you" want high performance I can't convince you its good unless a pro team uses it and I don't own one.

So what we have here is a disfunctional family. Everyone wants to interact with the people they think can make them happy but the industry dynamics are blocking the connections. Many, many players see this as "just the way it is". Perhaps this is the way of the future, if so I don't see where I can help you get something you want besides just making stuff LOOK different.

The only way out of this mess is to make a huge leap (of faith?) in a new direction that gets away from all the politics. The problem is no one wants to jump. Not the manfuacturers OR the players. As you have pointed out above the majority of comments on new products are on the looks and nothing else (well maybe weight).

So there we have it, the heard is standing on one side of the river, the lions are chewing them up one at a time because "thats the way it is". A few are saying "hey why don't we swim for it?" The rest of the heard is bellowing "no that's lame no one does that" and so time continues to march on.

AGD

[Patron God of Pirates]

Classic post.

I for one am standing on the opposite side of the river watching the action and eating popcorn.

If you are talking about heading in a more mechanical direction, I'm all for it. I'm still waiting for the mechs only tourny.

[Cryer]

/me is chillin in a lawn chair on the opposite side of the river throwing rocks and laughing at the cows.

How come when I started a thread similar to this, it didnt get much attention?:( I feel cheated:( ;) :p

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by AGD
If "you" ask for a hopper I can't give it to you because the patents are all locked up. AGD

I'm with you all the way here. In fact most people I talk to (that means with my voice not my fingers) don't have any idea what's going on industry wise and absolutely have no idea how that's slowing things down.


Now, to pick one issue...why wont companies buy licenses to use their technology from the patent holders? Will they not sell them? Are they charging too much to make a new product feasible?

[hardr0ck68]

completely off topic, when i was playing in Haveblues list of Pat's i found saw for a hopper from you AGD, any reason why it never was?

But yeah i agree 90% of the crap out there is exactly the same, hell WGP just released their first innovative autococker since....ever

The Angel is the same gun as it was in 98 with more gadgets hot-glued to it (oh look dear, my marker says their is a sever weather warning in the indo-china)

And everyone and their mom has a ram opperated electro, actually i think my mom is making her own Timmy, to be released next month. (has anyone noticed bobby and kingman have the same marketing? make a new one every week hype it as new and improved?)

Mags have a design more reliable than most, as consistant as most, less conplicated than most, less choppable than most, as smooth as most....so why doesnt it sell like the timmy? (lord knows its not a profile debate) or at least at the level of cockers!! Hell we had swing triggers before swing triggers were cool!

[Quickling]

And everyone and their mom has a ram opperated electro, actually i think my mom is making her own Timmy, to be released next month. (has anyone noticed bobby and kingman have the same marketing? make a new one every week hype it as new and improved?)

yeah but soon they will run out of colors of the rainbow.. then they will be screwed for 'new' markers.

Look its blue therefore it must be a different marker than the green one! Lets give it a new name!

one week later:

dooD! I so gotta sell this leet blue sPyDeR! BuY iT soz I can pwn wit da noo gr33n 1!

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by AGD


Yes I dropped that line seeing if it would get a reaction and AO comes through once again. By "you" I don't mean AO I mean the collective paintball community that judges paintball products.

Great cover! ;)

Ballers are ALWAYS asking for something new, looks, performace, specs, price etc. Even though they may be completely oposite like more performance for less price they ask anyway as they should.

I think they are like this in every industry. Look at the Camaro. It had better performance numbers and was cheaper then the Mustang GT. However the Mustang outsod it 3 times over.

*Disclaimer: I am a Mustang Guy! Go figure.

So what we have here is a disfunctional family. Everyone wants to interact with the people they think can make them happy but the industry dynamics are blocking the connections. Many, many players see this as "just the way it is". Perhaps this is the way of the future, if so I don't see where I can help you get something you want besides just making stuff LOOK different.

But if it looks different, you can add the bling bling to it! :rolleyes:

The only way out of this mess is to make a huge leap (of faith?) in a new direction that gets away from all the politics. The problem is no one wants to jump. Not the manfuacturers OR the players. As you have pointed out above the majority of comments on new products are on the looks and nothing else (well maybe weight).
So there we have it, the heard is standing on one side of the river, the lions are chewing them up one at a time because "thats the way it is". A few are saying "hey why don't we swim for it?" The rest of the heard is bellowing "no that's lame no one does that" and so time continues to march on.
AGD

That is the crux of the problem. Who will lead and who will get chewed up?

[Plazmic]

I'm fairly new to AGD products, but I LOVE my 68 classic. I've done most of the upgrades, like the LX, Intelliframe, etc., short of the X-valve. I can't afford the X-valve.

What confuses me is why people will spend more money on a marker that is not as good as a Mag. Personally, I think the sleek 68 looks awesome! It's simple, clean, and it performs beautifully. I have some other really nice looking guns, but I shoot this mag because it is just flat-out better. As a matter of fact, now that I have a mag, the other guys in my group are secretly asking me to find them a deal on one, too. It's funny because they come to me when the others aren't around so they can sneak one first and surprise the others.

There has got to be a way to market the Automag as simply a better marker, rather than focusing on looks alone. I wonder if there's any chance of AGD building a less expensive mid-range marker that really rips but doesn't cost as much as the top-end stuff. Or perhaps just lowering the base price of the 68 or minimag and then just taking in the extra with the upgrades. If more people own a 68 or minimag, then more people will buy the upgrades. I think all you'd need there would be some nice color on the 68 and have it pre-packaged with the LX (preset working) and you'd have a hot seller again. Push it towards the new but not first time players. Get them to buy a Mag as their first upgrade and you'll have a Mag owner for life. I mean...why change brands if you trust the one you have?

That's the way I'd like to see it, anyway.

[FutureMagOwner]

meh you wanna know why everyone wants a friggen impulse and not a bushmaster despite the fact they cost basically the same and the impulse is a crappier gun?

take a look at their catalog they have a list and pictures and links to the websites where you can get like 20 different custom impulses.

now this is only a small piece of the puzzle but a way to produce something similar is to get custom emags, rt pros, etc that simply look badass in one way or another and advertise these various combinations. combine this with a catch phrase for mags thats the equivilant to "agg gat" or "muppet killer" (btw those only a dumbass would think is cool, yet alot of people think it is so let that be an indication of who your selling to ;) ) and state the simple facts such as its proven to do yatta bps, the weight of that specific gun, and make a little chart or something that compares a mag efficiency to a viking, a 03 shocker, a cocker, a matrix, an impulse, etc.

i dunno but when i was uneducated i bought stupid crap just because they stated stuff like this (it wasnt true but it worked) and if you put the numbers out there, point out who won skyball last year, who kicked dynasty's behind in europe (i forget but didnt storm slap them around a couple times).

i think the product is already out there you just gotta prove it.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Plazmic
I'm fairly new to AGD products, but I LOVE my 98 classic. I've done most of the upgrades, like the LX, Intelliframe, etc., short of the X-valve. I can't afford the X-valve.

What confuses me is why people will spend more money on a marker that is not as good as a Mag. Personally, I think the sleek 98 looks awesome! It's simple, clean, and it performs beautifully. I have some other really nice looking guns, but I shoot this mag because it is just flat-out better. As a matter of fact, now that I have a mag, the other guys in my group are secretly asking me to find them a deal on one, too. It's funny because they come to me when the others aren't around so they can sneak one first and surprise the others.

There has got to be a way to market the Automag as simply a better marker, rather than focusing on looks alone. I wonder if there's any chance of AGD building a less expensive mid-range marker that really rips but doesn't cost as much as the top-end stuff. Or perhaps just lowering the base price of the 98 or minimag and then just taking in the extra with the upgrades. If more people own a 98 or minimag, then more people will buy the upgrades. I think all you'd need there would be some nice color on the 98 and have it pre-packaged with the LX (preset working) and you'd have a hot seller again. Push it towards the new but not first time players. Get them to buy a Mag as their first upgrade and you'll have a Mag owner for life. I mean...why change brands if you trust the one you have?

That's the way I'd like to see it, anyway.

Do you mean the 68 Classic by AGD or the 98 Custom by Tippman?:confused:

[Plazmic]

oooohh...typo! See what happens when I do too many things at once? :rolleyes:

I fixed my first post. Thanks for pointing that out. I was talking about the AGD 68 Classic. Best I can figure is that my Classic was MADE in 98, so I was trying to verify that elsewhere while I was reading this thread and I got the numbers swapped in my head...you know how it is.

[Gunga]

Originally posted by epterry
On a valve that took 4500psi how hard would the trigger pull be? Also what kind of hose would you use? :cool:

I was thinking the same thing (about the hose and fittings). I'm sure many of the 'bling bling' crowd would complain about not being able to use micro/macroline. Also, brass/aluminum elbows would be definitely out (they're rated at about 850 psi, AFAIK). Also, no QD's or proconnects.

[Lee]

tom: how about a vert hp reg based on current valve designs?

since mag valves convert 850psi or so to 400psi at the on/off and dump chamber and to 60psi behind the ball, it would make a great hp reg for the low pressure crowd. think of all the agd vert regs on all those timmies and etc.

adjust the input just like a valve or flatline. shouldn't take too much tweaking.

the only catch is i get one for thinking of it :D

[Sir_Brass]

Originally posted by Plazmic
I'm fairly new to AGD products, but I LOVE my 68 classic. I've done most of the upgrades, like the LX, Intelliframe, etc., short of the X-valve. I can't afford the X-valve.

What confuses me is why people will spend more money on a marker that is not as good as a Mag. Personally, I think the sleek 68 looks awesome! It's simple, clean, and it performs beautifully. I have some other really nice looking guns, but I shoot this mag because it is just flat-out better. As a matter of fact, now that I have a mag, the other guys in my group are secretly asking me to find them a deal on one, too. It's funny because they come to me when the others aren't around so they can sneak one first and surprise the others.

There has got to be a way to market the Automag as simply a better marker, rather than focusing on looks alone. I wonder if there's any chance of AGD building a less expensive mid-range marker that really rips but doesn't cost as much as the top-end stuff. Or perhaps just lowering the base price of the 68 or minimag and then just taking in the extra with the upgrades. If more people own a 68 or minimag, then more people will buy the upgrades. I think all you'd need there would be some nice color on the 68 and have it pre-packaged with the LX (preset working) and you'd have a hot seller again. Push it towards the new but not first time players. Get them to buy a Mag as their first upgrade and you'll have a Mag owner for life. I mean...why change brands if you trust the one you have?

That's the way I'd like to see it, anyway.

AGD has already done the midrange thing. Take a look at the ULE-RTP. You get a flippin ULE, Lx, x-valved, intelli or y-framed 2 piece MAG for just a little over $500! Midrange, HECK YEAH that's MIDRANGE :D. I know I'd LOVE one of those if only I could afford to justify the spending (my gun whoring days are over).

[luke]

To get back on track, are we interested in seeing AGD take it to the next level?

That's what this is all about. I'm not sure that everyone has caught on to the fact that Tom has an idea for a new gun, one that does not reflect the mind set of the rest of the industry, and defiantly not the mind set of the hype following players.

My first question is, will it be necessary for the gun to be electronic? If so, I doubt we will ever see it, bummer! If not these are exciting times or could be!

[Koosh]

One of the image "problems" with AGD is the fact that there are NO upgrades...

I mean, I love AGD's philosophy... if you spend more then $800 on ANY GUN it should come in perfect working order, no upgrades needed.

But that is one of the reasons why you see so many custom impulses, timmies, and matrices...

They release a BROKEN gun from the factory, let different companies upagrade it, then mill a different body and its all of the sudden a completley new gun.

AGD doesnt do that, you take it out of the box, you air it up, tweek LX and your good to go... forever. Maybe a custom sluggo, but there isn't a whole lot you can do after that...

Of course this only applies to E/X/RT Pro's... Classic mags have a great upgrade path... that turn them into RT Pro's...

[luke]

Here is a post from several weeks ago, for those who may have missed it......

AGD
President of AGD (really)
Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4747

Well if everyone were to suddenly give up their preconcieved notions of what is good and bad about a paintgun then this is what we could do NOW.

Run guns at much HIGHER pressures so you could make all the internal components smaller and more compact. This would lead to overall smaller guns with better efficiency.

Better efficiency means smaller tanks making the guns lighter and smaller overall.

Built in crono's that maintain your velocity at exactly what you set it to even when your tank starts running below your working pressure. This would mean that even though you we shooting a "high pressure" marker you would use it to the bottom of the tank. In order to do this you would have to have a fixed barrel but since everyone has to waist money on replacable barrels this thinking would have to change.

Trigger systems that would accomodate ALL of your fingers for "4 finger walking" pushing the fire power into the 30 BPS range.

Pre-load bolt systems that chamber the next round while you are firing the first elliminating ball feed lag.

Pressure feeding loaders that feed balls from anywhere into your flamethrower. OOPS we already have that, Warp Feeds....

Electronically timed millisecond on/off valves that would completely eliminate regulators. Lets see, we can take off the tank reg, then the vert reg and oh yea the LPR too. You would have to be ready to put all those manufacturers out of business.

Very high speed two shot bursts where the 2nd ball would draft close behind the first ball for greater accuracy. The first ball would disrupt the air column and leave behind a turbulent wake. The turbulence would disrupt the laminar flow that leads to vortex shedding on the 2nd ball. Disrupt the vortex and improve the accuracy.

No real gun with any state of the art firepower shoots from a clip. Clips are so 1900's. Real guns in all the worlds militaries use a belt feed from a huge magazine. We still love our cute little pods and hoppers and fashion matched pod belts so we look good when we are posing on the field. Maybe someday we will get with the program and use a backpack that could shoot a case of paint non stop. Oh yea, we have that right now too but no one wants it.

And last but not lease an electronically timed, high pressure marker without regulators could plug into a laptop, test itself and tell you exactly what's wrong with it.

This is just one possible reality, most likely not to be part of any of your futures. Have fun with your pods.

AGD


Here is the link to the original>>>>>
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=124336

[Plazmic]

Well, those are fantastic ideas, but what would the cost be? If it's the same or less than current (could be with no regs and such) then I'm all over it!

If Tom is some hyped up on the possibilities, why doesn't he build a prototype and blow some folks minds with it. Face it; many of us are geeks, and geeks LOVE technology!

Why would that not become the new AGD top line marker? It would obviously kick some serious butt! It's easy to talk.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by TheFlamingKoosh
They release a BROKEN gun from the factory, let different companies upagrade it, then mill a different body and its all of the sudden a completley new gun.


Have to disagree to a large extent with that statement.

In many cases the guns work fine from the factory. It's the players who are easily separated from their money for "upgrades" of little value other than hype or ego.

[SlartyBartFast]

Run guns at much HIGHER pressures so you could make all the internal components smaller and more compact.
So prove it. Build one. Demonstrate it’s better.
Built in crono's that maintain your velocity at exactly what you set it to even when your tank starts running below your working pressure. This would mean that even though you we shooting a "high pressure" marker you would use it to the bottom of the tank. In order to do this you would have to have a fixed barrel but since everyone has to waist money on replacable barrels this thinking would have to change.
So prove it. Build one. Demonstrate it’s better.
Trigger systems that would accomodate ALL of your fingers for "4 finger walking" pushing the fire power into the 30 BPS range.
I see that someone’s tongue is firmly places in-cheek. :rolleyes:
So prove it. Build one. Demonstrate it works, get it past the tournament rules.
Pre-load bolt systems that chamber the next round while you are firing the first elliminating ball feed lag.
So prove it. Build one. Demonstrate it works.
Pressure feeding loaders that feed balls from anywhere into your flamethrower. OOPS we already have that, Warp Feeds....
Good idea, fair execution, bad marketing, no sponsorship, bad public perception. Tough bannanas, markets are like that.
Electronically timed millisecond on/off valves that would completely eliminate regulators. Lets see, we can take off the tank reg, then the vert reg and oh yea the LPR too. You would have to be ready to put all those manufacturers out of business.
So prove it. Build one. Demonstrate it works. I’m sure that if you could do it the pneumatics automation people would beat a path to your door.
Very high speed two shot bursts where the 2nd ball would draft close behind the first ball for greater accuracy.
So prove it. Build one. Demonstrate it works.
No real gun with any state of the art firepower shoots from a clip. Clips are so 1900's. Real guns in all the worlds militaries use a belt feed from a huge magazine. We still love our cute little pods and hoppers and fashion matched pod belts so we look good when we are posing on the field. Maybe someday we will get with the program and use a backpack that could shoot a case of paint non stop. Oh yea, we have that right now too but no one wants it.
Hmm. Ya right. :rolleyes:
AGD has SAID that warps could do this. But has anyone ever tried?
So prove it. Build one. Demonstrate it works. Sponser a team with it and see if it sells.
You can talk about the revolutionary products and possibilities all you want. ANYONE can do that. The six pack revolutionised the game (game moved to ‘CA’, making itself obsolete at the same time).
The Warp could have done the same thing, but for whatever combination of failures and market forces, didn’t. If the Q-loader can build up so much hype and exposure, why couldn’t AGD?

[UThomas]

So prove it. Build one. Demonstrate it works. Sponser a team with it and see if it sells.

I'm guessing the cost of research and development makes the cost of failure too great for them to just build things and throw them out there and see how they do. They must make calculated decisions, and it would seem that they have calculated that the market (us) will not embrace this technology enough to get a good return on their R&D $$$$.

[Koosh]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


Have to disagree to a large extent with that statement.

In many cases the guns work fine from the factory. It's the players who are easily separated from their money for "upgrades" of little value other than hype or ego.

Yeah, I guess your right...

But everyone knows your impy SUCKS if it doesnt have an LPR, new bolt, hammer, ram, and gripframe. I mean, come on, why would they build aftermarket parts if they don't work? :rolleyes:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
So prove it. Build one. Demonstrate it works.

I'm sure as soon as you invest the 100,000's of dollars it would take to do everything you want AGD will get right on it.

You do understand that building something and proving it will work does not directly translate into return on investment. That's the whole point of the thread.

Tom's saying that it's not worth it to AGD to build it and proove it will work because no-one will buy it anyway do to the guns not being "Low Pressure" and the rest being too far from the norm for the sheep to except.

[Kaiser Bob]

If I were rich to the point of philanthropy, Id give Tom a million dollars without blinking to see what he could come up with. Ballers are slow to accept something different, but something truly radical especially something drastically contrary in EVERY way from the norm will turn heads no matter what, guarenteed.

[spantol]

I said it in the last thread, and I'll say it again here: The only way to fight these and other popular notions is through marketing. Complaining about it on your message board accomplishes little.

The technology Tom describes could very well be another inflection point in paintball, similar to the introductions of constaint air, semi-auto markers, and electronically-actuated firing cycles. Perhaps unfortunately, the market has changed dramatically in recent years. Previous potentially game-altering technologies could succeed or fail largely on their own merits. Now, a new product doesn't just compete with established products, it competes with marketing budgets as well.

Today, it's not enough to out perform the competition; you have to out market them, too.


Originally posted by TheTramp
Tom's saying that it's not worth it to AGD to build it and proove it will work because no-one will buy it anyway do to the guns not being "Low Pressure" and the rest being too far from the norm for the sheep to except.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Kaiser Bob
something truly radical especially something drastically contrary in EVERY way from the norm will turn heads no matter what, guarenteed.

I agree with this to a point but like you inply, how many of us have the $ and are willing to gamble it on the paintball public?

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I'm sure as soon as you invest the 100,000's of dollars it would take to do everything you want AGD will get right on it.

BUT TK keeps complaining he COULD do it if only the community would somehow embrace it.

Well, I say phooey. He's the one making the claims and whining (sorry can't think of a politer word) that the community would never buy it. So really, either build it and amaze us all. Or keep quiet.

TK is essentially complaining he COULD innovate and blow the competition away but he's being held back.

Well, if AGD hadn't sat on their laurels for so long and refused to review their product line (or concentrate on non-paintball activities, fn303, palentology, ...) or market in any organised fashion, who's to blame?

The paintball community for not buying the products that didn't meet their wants or the company that refused to look into what the community wanted and modify their marker?

AGD has FINALLY rationalised their product line and now you can build the marker YOU want and they've adopted some new parts/styles that meet current expectations. Now they need to market, hype, sell, and get the volume up.

But, AGD is going to have to revisit it's production strategy if they want the volume. Can't have X-mag or 4500psi Flatline production type problems if you want to grab market share.

AGD seems to be a bit like Apple computers. Great company, but they'd make more money and get more of the market if they'd let just a little of the production out of their hands.

[AGD]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
Pre-load bolt systems---elliminating ball feed lag.
So prove it. Build one. Demonstrate it works.
Pressure feeding ---, Warp Feeds....
Good idea, fair execution, bad marketing, no sponsorship, bad public perception. Tough bannanas, markets are like that.
[/B]

This represents my point EXACTLY! The first request from the public is "prove you can do it", once you DO then refuse to use it because of bad marketing. It makes more sense to skip right to the marketing part and forget the inovation because good marketing sells it anyway. Believe me I am all for the marketing these days.


AGD

[teufelhunden]

Originally posted by AGD

Believe me I am all for the marketing these days.


AGD

So prove it- market a product, sell it big. Use the revenue from the mass sale of AGD products to put towards the R&D for something, so that way even if it does flop, it's not going to destroy the company.

I think PB is more accepting to new ideas than you give it credit for- Semi-auto, electros, CA, that sort of thing.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by AGD
This represents my point EXACTLY! The first request from the public is "prove you can do it", once you DO then refuse to use it because of bad marketing. It makes more sense to skip right to the marketing part and forget the inovation because good marketing sells it anyway. Believe me I am all for the marketing these days.
AGD

But that's a basic premise to every product ever made and every market.

To REALLY beat everyone else you have to market AND innovate.

Look, if you came out with a marker that was truly tiny and operated direct of 4500psi AND hit the market hyping it to the max you WOULD sell.

But, you have to have sufficient production to meet the initial demand or the consumers will lose interest quickly.

I'd say that's the downfall of flatline tanks.

Once they've lost interest, it's near impossible to get them back.

[JuggaloDave]

i would love to atleast see working prototypes of some of this stuff, just cause i love looking at stuff that is all crazy, new and innovative. granted i would also love to see agd make a cocker lol(r/t cocker?! i can dream), cause i am a cocker guy. also, with the whole marketing thing, sell the base rt at 399 and make it the R/T am, ad then the full ule rt with the works for 510 as the r/t pro; then again, everyone knows what the next person should do, we just cannot figure out how to do for ourselves at times.

[Brophog]

That logic is so skewed, I don't know where to start.


AGD seems to be a bit like Apple computers. Great company, but they'd make more money and get more of the market if they'd let just a little of the production out of their hands.

How does this apply? Apple screwed themselves over with that proprietary software crap in the 1980's. I kinda see how that applies, considering that AGD is kinda on its own flank here, however, its not been due to innovation that has kept AGD in that spot. AGD helped innovate constant air, semi auto markers, high pressure air, and force feed hopper technology. Those are the four biggest factors in the way the game is played today.


AGD has FINALLY rationalised their product line and now you can build the marker YOU want and they've adopted some new parts/styles that meet current expectations. Now they need to market, hype, sell, and get the volume up.

Again, not AGD's fault here. I agree that they don't have the marketing department of the large volume guys, name me a small volume company that does? WDP, WGP, and Smart Parts, just to name 3 have huge marketing divisions, but are they pulling in the money to justify such expenditures.

However, its not for lack of materials that has kept AGD "down". High pressure, stainless steel bodies, and slip fit barrels are all BETTER than what the competition is oozing out. The problem is the consumer is ill informed, and due to the "herd nature" of the average paintballer (teenager) you get consumers who don't care what they buy.

Stainless steel is SO much nicer when it comes to durability and threading. Sure it weighs a bit more, but this is offset by the other factors.

High Pressure air IS more efficient, and allows for smaller components. High pressure = low volume. Low volume = smaller. Low pressure air is nothing more than hype! This crap about it being "easier on balls" and more efficient is wrong. Tuning your marker correctly, and attaining LP as a side effect is more efficient, but the LP itself is not.

This isn't what the consumer wants though. That's why this quote doesn't work:


BUT TK keeps complaining he COULD do it if only the community would somehow embrace it.

At this point in time, if he puts down $200,000 to build a marker, he has to know that he can get a return on his investment. It takes a lot of money to change your production to something else, not counting material/labor cost. You can't just say "build it" and expect people to accept it. You can't invest that kind of money just because the product is "better". People have to buy it.

Paintball is the ulitimate hype industry. More lies are passed as truth in this industry than in any other that I can think of. I respect Tom because he doesn't cater to everyone's whims. He builds a solid product, with quality workmanship, and excellent service. He's not about volume and gimmicks.

[AGD]

Originally posted by teufelhunden

I think PB is more accepting to new ideas than you give it credit for- Semi-auto, electros, CA, that sort of thing.

Ahh Contrare! Semi-autos were trashed when they first came out. Tournament players didn't even use them! The editor of APG said "there will never be a semi as good as a pump". Do you remember who originally introduced the Angel? It was Brass Eagle who then dropped it due to lack of interest. Con Air? The industry said it was dangerous and should be outlawed, it took YEARS to make it from when we first ran prototypes to general use. That was a long time ago before the marketing really took hold.

AGD

[punkncat]

Originally posted by AGD


This represents my point EXACTLY! The first request from the public is "prove you can do it", once you DO then refuse to use it because of bad marketing. It makes more sense to skip right to the marketing part and forget the inovation because good marketing sells it anyway. Believe me I am all for the marketing these days.


AGD


Beat down by da man! Another victim of the system.

It is truly a shame that you are not a endlessly wealthy man , and able to pour funding into making reality out of the ideas you have.It would be really nice to see someone rock the boat in spite of loosing their @ss due to disintrest in the marketplace..... oh well.(sigh)

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by AGD


This represents my point EXACTLY! The first request from the public is "prove you can do it", once you DO then refuse to use it because of bad marketing. It makes more sense to skip right to the marketing part and forget the inovation because good marketing sells it anyway. Believe me I am all for the marketing these days.


AGD


Let me pause before the statement, and note as I did in the other thread that spawned this that I have a great amount of respect for you TK, and for the mag design.

Now, having said this, think back. Nitro, would anyone have accepted it if you did not use it (and win) first. No, in fact, even when you were winning with it everyone was complaining, you even have some very top people (Palmer) saying CO2 is a better choice still. Look around at nitro, its there - you brought it, and yuo didn't ask first. You knew it was good, you supported it, you pushed it, you innovated it, it caught on.

Lets look at the known "failures". Perfectly round paintballs. I cannot begin to tell you why this didn't work, but how much testing did you do, or did you buy into the hype first? and then make it. Were you wrong, would I have done otherwise? NO. A good share of the respect I have for you, comes from this error - and your admitting it was an error. Too many companies would have stated all the reasons why a perfectly round painbtall must be better, and sold them at whatever cost it took to make a profit. The PB community, those following hype, would have bought into it. I would have bought into it and I dont normally buy hype, it just makes sense. We, the players, owe you more than we could imagine for not forcing this onto the market.

Tell me my two piece barrel system is no good - then build me a better performing barrel, show me it in tests, tell me it is better, and I will buy it. Don't tell me its the Crown Point (or whatever) barrel out there now. If what I have is not what is good, tell me, put your name on it, and offer it - your name is the reason I have an e-mag and not something else. Show me this one piece barrel, made to tournament grade, and sell me the thing. Or tell me who does. It seems intuitive to me that paint to barrel match is important, thats why I use a kit. Show me it isnt, tell me what the barrel to buy is, and I will buy it. By the way, I hated my custom products one piece barrel, it did nto shoot straight, and it did not clean itself.

The Z-grip, marketed to the tourney crowd who had compacted their markers to nearly turning their tanks around. Was this the best answer to the problems, or were shorter drops? Good idea, but I think the shorter drops give more advantages, added stability for me. BTW, you let the hype try to sell this.

The warp? I don't know, I have not seen a backpack warp offered - it exists in theory but show me where I can buy one. BTW - I don't like the idea, you would have to show me that the hose would nto catch, same as the remote air systems.

The point is, your greatest successes have come from making an innovation - putting it out there, showing us it worked as you said it did, and pushing it against the hype others would have against it. Make this better marker, take the risk, and show us. BTW learn from the past and patent the hell out of every moving part and every theory that makes it work. Share these patents with who you choose. If these marker innovations are so great, then push forward, you know they work, you know that you have some following, and AGD could well be at the top again. You started as nothing once, made the top. It is attainable again, you have a better followign then you did in the 90s, will it be harder, yes there is more competition, the tournament teams now play for $$. Is it impossible? No. Is it possible to beat SP, WDP, and the others in their own game, with hype? Sure... but I think your morals are too high to do it.


Show me the marker, tell me it is better, tell me why, and I will start saving my coins for it. Why didnt I buy an X-mag rather than an E-mag, well for all the money difference, noone could tell me the performance advantage.

Edit: Its not my name on the building, its not my name on the product, it is not my years of work that built AGD into what it is. All the decisions ultimately come down to what you want, and noone can blame you for them. But it seems to me, like you are frustrated and need a long vactation, or to relook at what got you to where you were. It was not following the hype - if it was we would have closed bolt mags by now.

[teufelhunden]

Originally posted by AGD


Ahh Contrare! Semi-autos were trashed when they first came out. Tournament players didn't even use them! The editor of APG said "there will never be a semi as good as a pump". Do you remember who originally introduced the Angel? It was Brass Eagle who then dropped it due to lack of interest. Con Air? The industry said it was dangerous and should be outlawed, it took YEARS to make it from when we first ran prototypes to general use. That was a long time ago before the marketing really took hold.

AGD

Yet we're all using them today. They caught on, not instantly, but they're still around and have dominated the market. People need to have it proven to them that an innovation is really worth it, and not by a company, by other players. That takes time. Get that right and the world gets nice and big ;)

[AGD]

Just as a point of levity here guys I think this is a very good debate, lively, thoughtfull and entertaining. It represents the best of AO even if I do have to throw a little gas on the fire.

AGD

[AGD]

Lohman446,

You are certainly correct, AGD has had a history of inovation and development does drive most industries. But once again I have to point out that most of the inovation avenues in paintball are locked up for one reason or another at this point. Once inovation is blocked for some and not for others marketing inevitably becomes higher profile.

The point becomes what to do if you can't.

AGD

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by AGD
Just as a point of levity here guys I think this is a very good debate, lively, thoughtfull and entertaining. It represents the best of AO even if I do have to throw a little gas on the fire.

AGD

Allright! Who pulled Tom's finger?:eek:

:p ;)

[spantol]

Sounds like you've answered your own rhetorical question there, Tom. If you can't innovate, you market, and if you can't do either, you lose market share to those that can.




Originally posted by AGD
Lohman446,

You are certainly correct, AGD has had a history of inovation and development does drive most industries. But once again I have to point out that most of the inovation avenues in paintball are locked up for one reason or another at this point. Once inovation is blocked for some and not for others marketing inevitably becomes higher profile.

The point becomes what to do if you can't.

AGD

[Rope a Dope]

Someday Tom... Someday.

You'll just say screw it, take a Spyder and replace the hammer and spring with a ram, throw on some sorta board that buffers shots and has a noisy microswitch for the trigger and mill in a picture of Fred Durst from Limp Bizkit on the side and you'll make millions!!!

You'll have your own pimp cup with your name on it.

http://www.icedoutgear.com/images/Belt%20Buckles/pc3.jpg

:D

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by AGD


The point becomes what to do if you can't.

AGD

Understand, that the technical ideas you floated out here are far beyond my understanding(and forgive me for the ones I screw up on, I have only a vague idea of what you are discussing) about a new bolt loading system, a 4500PSI valve (or higher), the warp sysem, lets even say a new hopper.

There is a leap of faith that has to be taken - and if you read my posts about the SP issue that leap should have taken. There should have been a multi-manufacturer stand against SP to derail that patent, or find a way around it. It sounds like optic triggers?? wtf is this, the emag trigger, and some other ideas get around it possibly.

Need use of a patent to build a better hopper, can you build a better hopper? Than do it with Oddysey or whatever company holds that patent you need. Share ideas whatever it takes.

It just seems to me, like some of the ideas you are teasing out here, are so innovative, that there cannot be existing patents on them. Are we discussing a smaller, higher pressure AIR valve type design? I mean it sounds to be like we may be able to do entirely away with electronics if we do? I could be wrong. This bolt thing about loading... I have the vaguest idea of what you mean, and if I am right the idea strikes me as... well not only patentable, but so desirable as to be hard for otehrs to follow.

We know now, patent the hell out of anything you innovate, before anyone else can, if its even a passing idea, build one, patent the SOB.

My point here is, that innovation canot be closed off, is it harder, sure it is. Is it impossible? Never, not as innovative as you have proven to be in the past.

Is this the best short term business model? No - hype, marketing a cheap product will gain you short term profit. The question is, how long before your name is destroyed, and then what do you do? Enron was looked at as the greatest business success story at one time. Be you, be what got you here, yes now you will need partners, other names, others to get further, but Tom, show me teh company in the industry that would pass up the chance to work wtih AGD. You are in a strong position to continue to lead the game forward, should you decide that is what you want to do.

[Digits]

Originally posted by Bolter
its like when the X valves had the writing a little skew and Tom was like "hey if you send em back i'll change it for a new valve" and everyone was going mad over this and sending in their valves.

I kept mine. Whats the difference? If it works 100% then cool surely? I mean yeah if it comes to you all scratched up then exchange, but seriously, cause the writing was off by millimeters, AGD lost out on loads of money.

I was just having a conversation with someone today on a similar subject. I sent him a picture of Cphils new dealer bits gun. And they said wow thats the first mag thats looked decent, but it ain't nothin over the DM4 or A4. I commented that blenders look nice but the mag/Emag/Xmag will out perform anything out there and STILL not chop paint. It should be about performance, over looks anyday.

I don't know if i'm right forsure.. But i'm pretty sure AGD didn't loose any money on this, they just sold the valves seperate or with the RTP customs.. Just because the X-mag body, and some of the custom bodies are the only ones that even go over the valve.. So it's not like they had to throw all those valves away..

[Athius]

I THINK ILL GET FLAMED BY SAYIN' THIS.

Why doesnt AGD redesign completely the E-Mag like Smart Parts did with the old shocker?

I know that there's the X-mag but it is the same thing as any emag but with ACE, interchangeble breaches and aluminum.

[AGD]

Innovation is overated (can you believe I would say that?:))

Let me throw out another point of view here for discussion. In a perfect world, innovation solves...a problem. That is the fundamental thing that makes it worthwhile to pursue. In the old days there were all kinds of problems like CO2, stick loaders and having to pump. Now virtually all of the guns on the market work pretty darn good (leaving out BE). There are not a lot of real fundamental problems. Mousetraps work really well so if you design a new one, people don't beat a path to your door contrary to the old addage.

So in order to innovate in paintball, we have to start with a problem, THEN innovate. Most problems like accuracy are at the end of the road. Even though you see it as a problem, there is no real fix or easy road too improvement. Simon and I both though the hopper on top of the gun wsa a problem buy you didn't think so.

So here I am talking to my customers daily waiting to see what the next big, real or perceived, problems will be. The thing is with every question you get a hundred answers. Clarity is not easy to come by around here.

AGD

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Athius
I THINK ILL GET FLAMED BY SAYIN' THIS.

Why doesnt AGD redesign completely the E-Mag like Smart Parts did with the old shocker?

I know that there's the X-mag but it is the same thing as any emag but with ACE, interchangeble breaches and aluminum.

I guess because the old Shocker was a huge Brick and the new one is a rip off of the Matrix. What should Tom redesign? Is there a faster valve out there then the R/T? Don't think so. Unless he can make it faster, why bother?

[camilion705]

To improve the emag you:

Put in a smaller battery so that you can use a foregrip instead. (The battery goes into a standard gas through grip...)

and a smaller grip frame that isn't so bulky. (Like the Logic maybe?)

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by AGD

So here I am talking to my customers daily waiting to see what the next big, real or perceived, problems will be. The thing is with every question you get a hundred answers. Clarity is not easy to come by around here.

AGD

You want to hear it, and it may be technically impossible, I have no idea really. Like I said, I am not good at the technical side of physics.

In my opinon - the next thing that people will pound on your door for involves efficiency, and nto the efficiency we are discussing now.

Either a totally electric type thing where movement of a piston compresses air to supply the marker (no thats not well thought out, you get my idea) or a new air supply system. Something that gets rid of that air tank that we are all dependent on (why did moving them to our backs nto work?? The same reason the warp meets with less than stunning success?? I dont know). The poitn is, uber efficiency, something unheard of or considered today, likely impossible with nitro, is what I feel is the next meaningful step in paintball. I have to agree, we haev likely hit the upper limits (or close) of accuracy and possible speed (though you hint we have not). BTW, your four fingered trigger system, patent the hell out of it, make one to satisfy that patent, double triggers were considered poor form for a long time.

Theres a problem, is it solvable?

[luke]

Tom, in regard to patents is the high-pressure gun you have in mind doable or not?

[Brophog]

Originally posted by AGD
In the old days there were all kinds of problems like CO2, stick loaders and having to pump.


Some of us wouldn't even go that far! ;)

But I agree with Tom here. That was one of the points I tried to diligently make in the BPS arguments; the fact that we don't need it anymore!

We're at the limit of effective speed.
We've discussed the limitations to accuracy.
Efficiency has just become a number.

Is there anything else to innovate? I liken this to the automotive industry. For years now, we've essentially done all that we're going to do with a combustion engine. Its been tweaked again and again.

But they have to put out new cars. So, we see cars coming out in new styles, with features like DVD players, navigation software, fancy looks.

Its still a car though. You still drive it the same, getting about the same fuel economy, at the same speeds.

Paintball is at this stage. What problem do we need to solve? I still play pump with CO2 (weather permitting) because I'm still able to eliminate those with Angels, Emags, and Timmy's. We haven't got to the point that the marker technology has changed enough for me to warrant an expensive purchase.

The question becomes, will it? I'm sure we'll see some speed increases, some new loaders come out, but does any of that really help you complete the task at hand: effectively eliminating you opposition.

What we will see, is even more team sponsorships. That's one of the few ways a manufacturer can get you to try his product over one of his competitors. If TEAM X shoots it, then people will buy it.

Is that what AGD needs to do? I don't think so. Why get back into the ratrace, when there are even more manufacturers than ever before, selling similiar products.

We've seen in this sport, that small time manufacturers with a loyal following can sustain themselves without marketing or reinventing the wheel. CCI is a great example. They don't put out a million phantoms a year, but they survived the decline of pumps by putting out a top notch product, with effective pricing, and brand loyalty. Their marketing came from users, not advertisements. Throw in a few markers to help support various pump tournaments, give people numerous custom options, and maintain hold of YOUR segment of the market. CCI survived the gravest period for pumps by doing these practices. Now, as the speed of markers goes even higher, we're seeing more and more pumps on the market, and more and more users giving them a try.

That's what I don't understand about users either wanting AGD to compete for either the upper eschelon, or for the entry level market. Those areas are full of companies who can't separate themselves from one another, whom must resort to high priced marketing and price slashing to compete. That's what happens when your not able to hold a technology advantage over competition. Marketing and price slashing will resort in more companies losing money in the end than it does in companies coming out on top.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by Brophog


Efficiency has just become a number.



Let me agree with everything you have said, and the probability that, given current technology, you are right here.

Bear with me though, for I am looking for the next problem to overcome. WHat if I could offer you (no not you, someone who likes semis hehe) a marker the size of a VSC phantom (or so) that had its own self contained air system or "mini compressor" system that could fire off, say 600 paintballs, or infinite (if its an electronically driven "mini compressor" system). Would you be interested?

PS - I have no such thing in the works, no technical ability to get it there, etc.

[robdamanii]

Originally posted by AGD

You want stuff and thats great, myself as a manufacturer and to stay in business, should move in the direction YOU desire. In the old days this was true, now this isn't and let me explain. If "you" ask for a hopper I can't give it to you because the patents are all locked up. If "you" ask for an electronic gun I can't give it to you because I could go to court. If "you" want high performance I can't convince you its good unless a pro team uses it and I don't own one.

The only way out of this mess is to make a huge leap (of faith?) in a new direction that gets away from all the politics. The problem is no one wants to jump. Not the manfuacturers OR the players. As you have pointed out above the majority of comments on new products are on the looks and nothing else (well maybe weight).


AGD

Tom, I don't necessarily think it's true that you have to have a pro team using something to make it popular. It helps, true, but prior to actually purchasing my mag, I'd heard how nice they were, and how reliable. I believed it, even though a lot of people told me "get a cocker, so much better", and I couldn't be happier with my mag. Hell, I want another one. The thing is, word of mouth is also a powerful tool for getting exposure, as are people who say "Here, you think it sucks? Shoot it and tell me it still sucks."

And Tom, as for that leap? I'd be behind you if you chose to make that leap. Why? Because I'm replying right now...you care enough about the people that shoot mags to be here, interacting with them on a personal level, not as a godly entity that is out of our reach as mere players. The mere fact that you choose to do business in this manner proves to me that you care what WE want, not just what the current industry hype is.

My $.02, for what it's worth.

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by robdamanii


Tom, I don't necessarily think it's true that you have to have a pro team using something to make it popular. It helps, true, but prior to actually purchasing my mag, I'd heard how nice they were, and how reliable. I believed it, even though a lot of people told me "get a cocker, so much better", and I couldn't be happier with my mag. Hell, I want another one. The thing is, word of mouth is also a powerful tool for getting exposure, as are people who say "Here, you think it sucks? Shoot it and tell me it still sucks."


You don't know how blindly people follow hype... I could give my ultylxrt pro to my teammate for a day and tell him to compare it to his stock orracle... and you know what he'd say? "My orracle is better." He blindly follows the cocker craze and he believes that a cocker could outperform any marker on the market. He's starting to make the electro jump and next he'll be saying his cocker sucked and there will be nothing better than a timmy, even when there is already something better out there. People in paintball are too arrogant to give a new product a chance.

For example, look at this thread:
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125899

Look at all the intial responses. Do you see "it's ugly", "it probably sucks", "it's ugly and looks like x marker so it probably sucks", "it looks like a ripoff of y marker", "it has ugly fittings so it probalby sucks and is low quality"? There's no proof that it sucks or that it's low quality. There's no proof that it's a ripoff. People assume that it sucks because it looks like it would be a ripoff of a bushy or a dragun marker. Woop dee freaking doo, who cares if it LOOKS like a crappy marker or a poor ripoff of a good midrange marker? Apparently more than half of the people who responded do. I know that AO's percentage of these types is less than what is compared to in real paintball. That means about 30% of paintballers would probably say something along the lines of "it sucks" and then another 40% would follow in that notion. Bam, instant rejection upon no proof at all. Paintball is full of lemmings.

[Brophog]

Originally posted by Lohman446




Bear with me though, for I am looking for the next problem to overcome. WHat if I could offer you (no not you, someone who likes semis hehe) a marker the size of a VSC phantom (or so) that had its own self contained air system or "mini compressor" system that could fire off, say 600 paintballs, or infinite (if its an electronically driven "mini compressor" system). Would you be interested?


Interesting question. I'll tackle it from the semi side of things.

If I'm a semi user, I must consider the infrastructure necessary to accomplish my task. That's why weight isn't important to me. As a pump user, I may only have on me 400 balls for a LARGE scenario game, a 9 oz tank, and maybe a cheap 100 round hopper. Weight is an issue to me as a pump user, because why take away a mobility advantage, when I'm already at a perceived firepower disadvantage? As a semi user, I'm gonna have no less than 1000 rounds on me, a tank capable of shooting that, and a loader capable of feeding that. Marker weight isnt an issue, because I'm gonna need a heavy harness to carry that paint, a large tank to shoot that paint, and a big, heavy agitated hopper to feed that paint. At that point, what is 8 ounces more or less on my marker?

As far as the air compressor idea, first of all, it has to be able to deliver me constant pressure, at a high enough volume to deliver those 1000 balls. We can do that already with the high pressure systems of today? My question then becomes to you, what problem are we solving.

I like the question though. This is the sort of hypotheticals we were discussing in the technology thread, before it died off.

[Lohman446]

Assume I can give you infinite, consistant pressure and get the tank, and its weight out of the way... does it make it worth it? I see what your saying though, the tank is a stock anyway, so almsot integral to the gun anyways. Is such a thing desirable, I would have considered an integral battery powered mini compressor awesome, no worrying about air fills, play anywhere anytime - even if you did not gain anything in teh size category, am I off base on this theory, or on the size theory?

[Meph]

Originally posted by AGD
The editor of APG said "there will never be a semi as good as a pump".

AGD

Yeah well he also allows a RamRod barrel testing to be published with the barrel getting great reviews DESPITE having no report on it's performance! APG have their head up their...

HEY HEY KIDS! (Krusty Laugh)


Tom you are kind of right on the "nobody wants to get into the politics" but at the same time when was the last time you saw CNN talking about paintball politics? And dear God how many teams would sacrifice their sponsorship to talk bad about the industry when they can just keep quiet and continue to get the free ride? And how many times do you see threads in a forum about the politics only to turn up 10 minutes later into a childish little bickering flame pit that eventually either gets ignored, or closed due to the immature posts being jacked back and forth?

It's kind of hard to talk about politics when really there isn't anywhere to talk about it! If you don't believe me then please, go to PBNation.com and make a thread about the SP lawsuit. You can use a stopwatch to time how fast it will be when it gets thrashed by dumb kids and eventually ruin the entire topic.

If you're serious about wanting politics talked about there's going to have to be a seperate website or forum devoted specifically to it. Where only certain people are allowed... aka people in the Industry. Would be like a Warpig.com interview of a player, only instead would be devoted to the hot topics of today.

Or maybe even a Crossfire session on WebDog Radio perhaps? C'mon, wouldn't you love to be videotapes having a debate/discussion across the table from the Gardners Tom? I bet people would pay money to see that!

[robdamanii]

Originally posted by TheFlamingKoosh


Yeah, I guess your right...

But everyone knows your impy SUCKS if it doesnt have an LPR, new bolt, hammer, ram, and gripframe. I mean, come on, why would they build aftermarket parts if they don't work? :rolleyes:

WAit, they don't suck then too?

I was never aware...;)

[FutureMagOwner]

hehe noticed what i posted though foo? :)


anyway tom what about the point i brought up it kinda has to do with what your basically saying (although not saying you should follow that path exactly)

[Brophog]

OK, lets assume that we do have a micro compressor able to continuously generate a reliable, constant air source. We add on a lightweight fabricated stock to give us the stability we had with a tank.

Potentially you could lose the weight of the tank. However, we would get the weight back in the weight of the compressor, plus we will need an energy source for this compressor. That will require either a separate battery or a much larger voltage than we currently generate.

At one time I would have said something like this would have been great for providing constant air. However, now a days, we don't see as much play on private lands, and much more on commercial fields. For most commercial fields, supplying air, in either CO2 or HPA, is not a problem.

[Meph]

Originally posted by AGD

So in order to innovate in paintball, we have to start with a problem, THEN innovate

AGD

Want some problems to work on innovation? Okay, I can think of a few things that contribute to being problematic for AGD....

1) Dealers/Availability. Sure banners on AO promote the Tac One body, but what good is that for outside AO? You need the dealers to know you support them, and in return to have them pushing your products hard.

2) Price. Obviously everybody wants the cheaper the better, which is why Kingman is in business still because they sell in such bulk volume and reduce costs drastically over the volume. But as well when you have your 'top of the line' markers such as the E-mag going for... what, about $800 or so? People talk themselves out of it by going the route of Matrix or 03Shocker or Impulse. Of course this is a hard obsticle to overcome when you're not exactly making Dragun Empire volume of mags!

3) Myths. Too many people still have the "it's a mag" mentality, despite anything you tell or show them. Because of this they'll never buy one and will continue to thrash them.

4) Efficiency. You know the latest craze now is that you must have 2000 shots off a 12gram, right? Gotta get that goin for ya!

5) Hype. Now I'm not sure everybody agrees, but I think there are 2 types of hype. There is bullarchy for a polite version! :) This is the "closed bolt" or "venturi bolt" or "seal forward technology" type of Hype. The myths and bull that are used to boost sales to ignant twibs. But I feel there's another type of hype. And companies are using it to their advantage, like AKA. 40cps hype, 2100 shots off a 68/4500 tank hype. Tippmann's A-5 fastest marker/feed system on the market hype. Dynasty Octane Naughty dogs Brimstone Effect edition hype. THIS type of hype, the stuff used to promote the bloody item. It's not lying, it's not pulling punches, it's not using 80's myths. It's telling the truth but in a fancy marketing take-advantage-of-twib kind of way.

6) The brown box! Sorry just had to mention it.

7) Manual. I'm not talking full out 40 page WDP manual, but at least something that's a few pages explaining everything. Troubleshooting and fixing. How it works. Stats. Parts breakdown. All that good jazz.

[Lord_Whoopass]

As far as the gun works you cant really innovate it... My AGD guns work great... heres a problem I have found with them and the "normal" paintball consumers however...
Efficiency... My frontman likes the feel of my mag but doesnt like having to carry around a 68/4500 to the fifty... He has a very happy trigger finger and just unloads paint for being a front... anyways I am sure you have already thought about this but if there is anyway you could innovate the valve to be more gas efficient I think it would be a great step for Mag Kind...

[Heebs]

Probably one of my biggest qulams with getting an AGD marker is the looks. I know that it can perform with the best of the best but it just looks plain. A perfect example that a great looking marker will sell is Deadly Wind's Karta bodies. Those things sell like hotcakes and you said it yourself that they "drip sex." The TAC-1 got a nice welcome which I believe is in part due to the fact that it looked the part. I drooled over the milling pattern of the X-mag (along with countless others).

I believe you also said that most markers now a days work pretty darn well. So what is left to really make one marker stand out from another? Customer support? AGD already has that down. Efficiency? I really wouldnt know the numbers for Mags. Weight? ULE options covers that. Speed? Mags already are fast. Anti Chop? Mags already have LVL 10 and ACE. Reliabilty? Mags are rock solid. Looks? Here is where guns are going to differ. The real difference between a DM4 and a Aced Emag (to me at least) is that one looks pretty cool and one looks rather plain.

So I suppose I am beating a dead horse with others saying that AGD design + a little sexy milling = greater sales. I would also bet that if AGD released the Warp Sluggo bodies so aftermarket bodies like the Karta could be produced then you would sell more Warp Feeds. I for one dont like the adaptor and a CF.

Heebs - Official PhOG poser.

[SirTim]

Speaking about marketing and sales, I think Heebs is dead on. Most of the high-end markers perform pretty good, the only thing that AGD lacks is look. There is some great posts making correlation on automobiles and paintball markers. One of the key elements people choose one markers over the other is more on looks than ever. If a marker looks great on the rack or on the field, it automatically attracts people ask questions about it. People will want to feel it, shoot it. It all started with the look, of course, you have to back it up with performance and quality to sell in quantity.

Personally, I think Mag looks are too plain with the exception of the XMag.

[DWill]

I would say a much larger percent of AO are more hypocritcal now then they were a few years ago. For example of you look at the thread where Tom asks on first impressions on the O3 Odessey a lot of them were negitive and based purely on looks alone.

I would say it is time for AO to wake up and stop saying things when they really don't mean it. If you get a new marker then don't go posting pictures up and saying it is good because it is all shiney...wow us with its performance.
In response to the people who are telling Tom to build new innovative ideas and saying we as a paintball community would buy it, I would say that this is totally false.

I have seen Tom release something new and unique, then get burned for it again and again because no one would by it because it was too far from the norm. AO has another tendacy to say that they will buy a certain item in huge quantities, then when the item is released barely any sales at all, look at the z-grip and the rolling trigger for examples. So I guess my message is thing about what you are saying before you say it, and make sure it is true....

[robdamanii]

I think you make a good point, but it's also true that in many cases, markers that perform nearly the same, the deciding factor is looks. I personally think Mags are a beautiful marker, but I know people who think they look like crap, and they shoot like crap.

The Z-Grip was ahead of it's time, that's how I see it.

With the X-mag and E-mag, I see AGD sitting on a higher level than it was several years ago. I think now would be the time to follow on the heels of that success and bring something new into the market.

[DWill]

I may of seem a little unreasonable in that last post...allow me to clarify.

I have no problems with people wanting their marker to look pretty...it is when people start judgeing the better marker purely on looks that makes me upset...and when people say they are judgeing on performace when they are really judgeing on looks that makes me even more upset. I think the X-mag is one of the best looking markers out there, and I would gladly own one if I had the cash (I am not a bum for nothing!)...just my .02 cents

[Heebs]

Heh, perhaps TK should market everything to us pump players, we seem to have an appreciation for things that arent "norm."

Heebs - Official PhOG Poser

[Bucky]

All of these ideas seem really great, but it seems sad to just talk about them instead of actually making it happen.

Tom, how large a sum of money does it take to create a new gun like this? And, (this part for the AO members) if we could convince you to do this, would people donate money to help research this not as an investment, but more like a leap of faith in the progression of the sport of paintball, so Tom would not have to take such a great hit to his bank account on something that might not take flight?

Just a few thoughts.

[luke]

HUMMMMM. I would have never expected this thread to end up going where it did. A bummer really. For the most part it looks like nobody is interested in evolution from Tom’s perspective......

Funny how everyone is always trying to tell Tom how to run his business, looks like he knows more than most people give him credit for. He nailed this one from the beginning. :(

[Plazmic]

In a little bit of a bad mood, there, loke? As I recall, having actually read this thread through, Tom asked for our ideas and, specifically, for ideas on what problem we see in paintball that might need a solution.

[AGD]

As an example of what it takes to develop really new technology, it took 5 engineers 8 months of full time work to fully develop the RT valve system. That 5x8= 40 man months if you were working alone or 3.3 YEARS. And the RT valve was an already functioning prototype from 1991.

In order to properly develop a completely new valve system that would be superior to everything out there we would allot somewhere between 2-300 thousand dollars over two years. That is the money you would gamble on development without knowing if would actually work or not.

AGD

[DWill]

Originally posted by luke
HUMMMMM. I would have never expected this thread to end up going where it did. A bummer really. For the most part it looks like nobody is interested in evolution from Tom’s perspective......

Funny how everyone is always trying to tell Tom how to run his business, looks like he knows more than most people give him credit for. He nailed this one from the beginning. :(

I agree...it is a real bummer to think that something so great that could of revolutionized paintball will not be devolped because of the paintball communitie's narrow-mindess as a whole, save for a few induviduals.

[Plazmic]

Originally posted by AGD
As an example of what it takes to develop really new technology, it took 5 engineers 8 months of full time work to fully develop the RT valve system. That 5x8= 40 man months if you were working alone or 3.3 YEARS. And the RT valve was an already functioning prototype from 1991.

In order to properly develop a completely new valve system that would be superior to everything out there we would allot somewhere between 2-300 thousand dollars over two years. That is the money you would gamble on development without knowing if would actually work or not.

AGD

That's not too bad from an R&D viewpoint, but from a company owner's viewpoint, that's harsh. Okay, I'll start buying as many parts as I can for my mag so you can develope a new valve for us. :D

Who else is in? If everyone buys just one new upgrade this month, maybe we give AGD a nice boost and Tom'll think about doing some really nice R&D for us. Yeah?

Edit: Uh, let's make that next month. There's only a few days left in this one. :p

[felony]

Originally posted by AGD
That is the money you would gamble on development without knowing if would actually work or not.

AGD

That is an awfully big gamble to take, and would never take it myself in position :cool: but if you know it could change the paintball world, maybe you should.

I totally agree with what someone said earlier. People are still gonna say its just a Mag. blah blah. I was @ the field today and watching people with those great new 03 shockers chopping ball after ball. my teamates matrix was have MEAN drop off. I saw another back player take his barrel off of his shocker to properly clean a chop or some junk like that. Let me think of some more problems. Uh the standard cocker not working, etc etc.

I talk with some of my friends and with some other players and ask them why not just use a mag? My emag shoots just as fast as thier markers. It is a fairly small profile. It doesnt chop. It is as accurate at those cockers out there :D . Most of the time they say, "well, its mag" or something extremly stupid like that.

Certain guns are for certain people. Some want a solid, performing, easy to work with marker. thats why i got an emag. i dont think it is terrible sexy.

If I wanted to spend 1000 on a matrix to sit @ the chrono fixing junk, I probably would have left paintball a long time ago.

I don't know Tom. It is even tough for me to decide what to do with your money :D :D :D . My current requests, as everyone elses have to do with efficiency, battery size(i like the batt pack, just not weight), and maybe a nice integrated rail/body, but none of these expand past he current user market.

good luck

dan

[breg]

My $.02:

One of the things that I think is wrong with paintball in generalis that people want form over function. It's a sad truth, but looks are the most important part in seclecting so many things.
The problem that Tom might have is that he is too much the engineer. While the regular folk will hear the specs and what not on his products, but people shop with eyes and not ears. While that is truly unfortunate, it is a fact. Not everyone is willing to put much research into buying a marker. They will listen to their friends and buy what they use, or they will buy what they see in the glossy pages of a given paintball magazine. Another problem is that there is so much marking hype that has been taken as paintball fact. There is little that can be done to teach people differently. Like when I tried to explain to someone once that all markers fire from a closed bolt; their only response was, "Let's see what my buddy Bud Orr has to say about that."

As for what i would like to see from AGD... well better availibility for the X Mags would be nice. As well as a custom E-mag package similar to the Custom RT/Pro. That would be a great!

[shartley]

What I see is that in paintball people don’t realize that they don’t NEED as much “function” as they want to think they do. The level of “function” has already reached the point where the markers can outshoot the feeding systems that are required to USE them. We have also reached the speeds that folks are seriously discussing reducing the speeds allowed, not their overall capabilities. The accuracy can not really be improved upon either because of all the factors we are dealing with there as well (and if you want the paintballs to remain affordable).

What does that leave? Efficiency. I think manufacturers need to focus on THAT. All the other issues… BAH, non-issues as they apply to the real world of real paintball use. It is like trying to increase the “function” of a black powder musket. There is just so much you can do before you simply don’t have a musket any more, or are not shooting the same ammunition.

Then you have to figure in cost effectiveness of any new changes. Not only to the manufacturer, but to the consumer as well. Is the added expense of any new changes worth the time, or money it would require? Some times you just have to honestly evaluate it and say NO. And the blame for that is not only put on the customer.

Yeah, it IS much easier to say “BAD consumers! You keep us from developing new things.” But that is hogwash. Manufacturers have always looked at what the consumer wanted, but most times they GIVE the consumers what they want the consumer to buy…. And they BUY it.

I would also not donate to any company so they can develop new things. Well, let me rephrase that… I would give to (and have) for cancer research, and similar things… but NOT a toy company. Development is part of the business, we all have to do it to some degree, and our actual sales (or personal investment) go to support that. We can either do it, or we can’t. Businesses of this type are not charities or simply out to “better the world”. They are businesses.

AGD can not blame the customers for AGD not doing any development that would be required for any new “advancements”. That would be like an auto manufacturer trying to blame its “fan club” for not coming out with new technology or parts used on/in their cars… LOL They have to determine if it is cost effective to do so, or even if it would be worth it to do so. They have to determine this by many factors, not just the whims of their customer base.

Geeeeee… I wonder how the other paintball companies do so well without such direct contact between customers and management (as AO has)? ;)

[luke]

Originally posted by Plazmic
In a little bit of a bad mood, there, loke? As I recall, having actually read this thread through, Tom asked for our ideas and, specifically, for ideas on what problem we see in paintball that might need a solution.

Not really in a bad mood, perhaps a little disappointed.

If I remember the quote you’re thinking of, Tom said he comes to AO looking to see what we are interested in. In this case Tom already has an idea. That is a more compact, lighter, air efficient, and faster valve, more so than anything else on the market. True evolution and at it best.

BUT, how can he justify spending $300,000 developing a new gun when it will likely be ignored by the majority of the players. The real point of this thread was to try and prove to Tom that people would be highly interested in this new idea.

After reading the thread I get the feeling that people really ARE NOT interested in this new idea. Honestly I did not expect AO to respond this way.......

(It's Luke BTW) ;)

[luke]

Originally posted by shartley

What does that leave? Efficiency. I think manufacturers need to focus on THAT.


AGD can not blame the customers for AGD not doing any development that would be required for any new “advancements”.



This is what most didn't catch on to. Your exactly right efficiency would be a true advancement, such as Tom has proposed with the new design, and to add to it he also proposed lighter weight and a more compact design.

In respect to the second part of the quote, you are right on again. But, nothing says he has to develop anything new for us either. ;)

:) I wouldn’t gamble that kind of time and money on a project if my main focus group didn’t seem remotely interested. Would you?

[sneakyhacker420]

i could care less about fancy aesthetics

i own 5 mags and think that they are the sexiest thing alive from top-of the line now, to top-of-the line in 1994

X-Mag to Classic RT, its all here, and i love them all


overall i love AGD, and will ALWAYS have atleast one Mag in my lineup :D



the ONLY thing that i would like to see from AGD is an interesting idea IMO, have a sluggo body that uses an internal aluminum sleeve, like the empire timmys

so you can ano the body and sleeve a different color, and have through-the-body milling that exposes the different colored sleeve inside... this is also an example of the adrenalin impulse's air chambers, aardvark matrices, texas storm timmy, ripper timmy, ironman timmy, and a bunch of others

[Meph]

Originally posted by DWill
AO has another tendacy to say that they will buy a certain item in huge quantities, then when the item is released barely any sales at all, look at the z-grip and the rolling trigger for examples.

Z-grip is a valid example, everybody knows that. But you don't remember the roller trigger if you put that in the same category as the Z-grip!

Remember the posts? Tom showed this tiny little circle in the E-mag trigger. People loved it, and people wanted it and even with a pre-order before Tom officially made production.

What happened? That tiny little circle just barely sticking out the double trigger 'bump'.... turned into this giant bolt-on drill and tap attachment. People actually had to have a drill and tap to put this on, it wasn't even close to the same thing Tom had pictures of. Yes it was a convenient idea to have 2 seperate bearings to slap on, but at the same time that wasn't what the AO people saw or wanted. They saw the modified trigger with the bearing, but got that.

Not saying the performance wasn't there. I'm sure it worked the same performance wise. But damn there are just times when if you can make the same thing but make it look sexy.... the sexy one will be more desired and sell.

Now had Tom just taken a large pile of E-mag triggers and modified them to put that piece in place, despite of course it being in the way of the magnet screw. We might be looking at a different story with the Roller triggers.

I mean look at the 03Shocker. A company already made a trigger with about 4 'bumps' on it to give that roller effect. So you can't tell me that there isn't 0 demand for it if that ugly thing is selling. But of course same time I'm glad Tom did do a pre-order as he should have. Paintball players in general, not just AO, tend to say "Yeah man I want this, I'd pay mad dough for it!" But once it's there reality suddenly they lack the funds for it!

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD
In order to properly develop a completely new valve system that would be superior to everything out there we would allot somewhere between 2-300 thousand dollars over two years.

Someone needs to win the lottery and invest in Tom's new valve idea. ;)

[Plazmic]

Luke,
I can understand your disappointment, but if the general Mag community is honestly saying they already love the current products and just want a better looking one, then what is the problem?

Personally, I don't have loads of extra cash to invest in the latest gadget or on the best top end marker out there. I shoot a 68 classic because it is a fantastic marker at a relatively low price. And if you ask me, stainless steel looks damn sexy out in the field, now, since every other gun is being made with so much ridiculous milling and miriad colors that it's hard to even focus your eyes on them. My 68 is simple, but damn fine shooting on the field. I've played at fields where people holding Cockers and Angels have come over to check out my Classic (especially since it's a stainless body and not grey).

Automags are awesome guns. The questoin is, how many people out there are building top-end guns these days? Now look around the fields and see how many of them are in regular use. Where are you going to make your money? Is a damn fine, customizable, R/T Pro or variant going to be the answer? I think it might be. It just won't be in my hands, though, because I can't afford it. I'll just keep adding nice little upgrades to my Classic, as I can spare the dough, and I'll always be happy with it.

[Digits]

Originally posted by felony


That is an awfully big gamble to take, and would never take it myself in position :cool: but if you know it could change the paintball world, maybe you should.

I totally agree with what someone said earlier. People are still gonna say its just a Mag. blah blah. I was @ the field today and watching people with those great new 03 shockers chopping ball after ball. my teamates matrix was have MEAN drop off. I saw another back player take his barrel off of his shocker to properly clean a chop or some junk like that. Let me think of some more problems. Uh the standard cocker not working, etc etc.

I talk with some of my friends and with some other players and ask them why not just use a mag? My emag shoots just as fast as thier markers. It is a fairly small profile. It doesnt chop. It is as accurate at those cockers out there :D . Most of the time they say, "well, its mag" or something extremly stupid like that.

Certain guns are for certain people. Some want a solid, performing, easy to work with marker. thats why i got an emag. i dont think it is terrible sexy.

If I wanted to spend 1000 on a matrix to sit @ the chrono fixing junk, I probably would have left paintball a long time ago.

I don't know Tom. It is even tough for me to decide what to do with your money :D :D :D . My current requests, as everyone elses have to do with efficiency, battery size(i like the batt pack, just not weight), and maybe a nice integrated rail/body, but none of these expand past he current user market.

good luck

dan

Matrix's are great guns, your friends probablly just don't know how to properly maintain them.. My friends matrix never gives him problems, and i've used it.. Easilly my favorite marker i've used to date..