AGD E-guns R&D?

[GT]

Just getting AO's thoughts, Tom if this isn’t appropriate feel free to move this thread to the 'round' file; do you think we will see any new E-guns from AGD? Or will they wait until the SP issue is settled?

A few of my thoughts, I am not sure if waiting for SP is a wise move. The litigation could take YEARS. So could it possibly take years for AGD to produce the next gen E/X mag? If they do hear from SP will they drop the E line all together? With all of this talk of the ULT and the fact AGD could use a smaller solenoid combined with all of the ULE stuff, I think we could see a low to mid 2lbs electro from AGD.

[AGD]

Well the cost to buy the first inventory for a new electronic gun is at least 500,000 dollars. If you thought you were gonig to be in court any time soon over them would you spend that money up front?

AGD

[RRfireblade]

This is just completely off the top of my head but.....

Why does it seem that it costs AGD like 10X more than anyone else to produce a product.I'm not trying to be a wise guy,I'm just noticing that product seems to come from many other sources at higher volume in faster time and for less overall cost than the figures Tom keeps giving out.

Why should it cost 1/2 a mil to produce a product with a $500 retail? I could understand if your starting from scratch with no facility or anything,but we're talking about an idea,some aluminum and under $100 in electrical parts and your at prototype stage.......or not?

[Mindflux]

You just said it

Higher Volume = Less per part.

for starters.

Faster to get to sale = No product laying around losing value.

In case you haven't noticed, agd isn't high volume or very fast with new products.

[RRfireblade]

That's purely for full production.

It's got nothing to do with designing and building a prototype.After that there is always preorders and such to defray the costs.

No one says you have to design and build 1000 markers and then try and sell 'em.

[Remington]

Originally posted by RRfireblade
This is just completely off the top of my head but.....

Why does it seem that it costs AGD like 10X more than anyone else to produce a product.

Because AGD puts more time and effort into its R&D, which in turn produces a better quality product. Companies that just pump out product after product will start running into flaws after the product has already been released to the consumer, whereas AGD takes its time to ensure its products are done right the first time.

Take all the time you need Tom, we'll still be here when you're done! ;)

[Muzikman]

You also have to remember that AGD does not have a production machine shop. They farm everything out?

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by Remington


Because AGD puts more time and effort into its R&D, which in turn produces a better quality product. Companies that just pump out product after product will start running into flaws after the product has already been released to the consumer, whereas AGD takes its time to ensure its products it are done right the first time.


Oh,I forgot,AGD never released a product that ended up having issues.:rolleyes:

[nerobro]

Have you looked at how long it takes SP or other companys to get it right? AGD... you might see a revision or two. And those are usually free. (think superbolt to LX, you paid what was effectively the difference in price between the two)

Smart Parts is on the sixth or seventh generation of impulse. And they still don't have it down right. (WDP, AKA, and Indian Creek all got it right, right away..)

They worked on the shocker for... oh... 8 years? And in the end scrapped the design becuase they could never get it fast enough. Yet we the consumers paid for their prototype guns.

WGP took more than five years to get the cocker fully sorted out. 94-99. 1999 is the first year I would have taken a stock cocker out on a tourny field without being nervous.

The level 7 valve has been in production, in it's current form since.... 94? No revisions that I've seen. and then the only substantial change was valve chamber size.

The retrovalve, hasn't changed. Period. The RT regulator, is unchanged from the day it came out in the original RT. You still use the same parts kits. You use the same pistons. Same on/off's.

This is the difference between AGD and "the other guys" AGD releases guns that work. And are a final design. Without KNOWING we're doing it. We do not pay for prototypes. (we KNEW the superbolt, and superbolt 2 early releases were prototypes. You can't be angry when a prototype part doesn't work.)

It takes money to properly develop and test guns. You should see the prototype AIR's that I've seen. And the prototype bolts. And the bodies. The ULE bodies have existed for a few years. But testing and development was being done, so they weren't released. (I saw aluminum, cocker threaded mag bodies at the supertour.) And as you can all see, the ULE bodies are flawless.

RRfireblade: Preorders are a bad bad practice. Using preorder money for development is effectively turning customers into investors. There's no garuntee they will get a good working product in the end. If you want a good example of this. Look at the Shelby Series 1.

[Kevmaster]

sure R&D is expensive and they have lots of expensive tools, but i am with RR on this, 500G seems excessive. shoot..you could buy a NICE 5-axis CnC machine, pay two people 40hours/week for one year for half that

[GT]

Originally posted by AGD
Well the cost to buy the first inventory for a new electronic gun is at least 500,000 dollars. If you thought you were gonig to be in court any time soon over them would you spend that money up front?

AGD

You have 3 choices

1. Not make any E line ever again
2. pay the stupid sp fee
3. fight them dollar for dollar in court.

1 and 3 will possibly hurt your fan base. Little time and money spent in R&D can cause users to become unintrested in the product line, i.e. we need stuff to buy or dream about to be loyal AGD fans. Or we could simply pay the [er gun fee and go on, but never forget. I am sure this oversimplfies the problem. I wish I could chat with you in person as I am sure there are many angles of this issue I dont see.....

[Bolter]

i think agd and indeed many other pball companys are caught between a rock and a hard place.

[nerobro]

Originally posted by Kevmaster
sure R&D is expensive and they have lots of expensive tools, but i am with RR on this, 500G seems excessive. shoot..you could buy a NICE 5-axis CnC machine, pay two people 40hours/week for one year for half that

There are a few other things to think of as well. Count the cost of "some" advertizing. If you want to sell parts, you need hype to go with it.

Count the costs of the first run of parts.

And the costs for jigs.

And the costs for broken tooling.

And the costs for raw material.

The first run of boards, will cost about $30 a gun, without displays if they decide to go that way. You'll need to pay a programmer. And an engineer to design the board.

I could see $500k being eaten up really easily.

And... if we wait. The SP thing will be defeated.

Gtrsi: The "stupid" SP fee is evidently large enough to put many paintball buisnesses out of buisness.

[GT]

Originally posted by nerobro
Gtrsi: The "stupid" SP fee is evidently large enough to put many paintball buisnesses out of buisness.

who and how much?

[C_22]

nerobro, I'm with you on this. AGD = guns that work. Period.

[nerobro]

Originally posted by gtrsi


who and how much?

ICD merged with NPS? Or was it PMI? To avoid the licencing fees. They're just starting on AKA. We'll see where this goes.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by nerobro
There are a few other things to think of as well. Count the cost of "some" advertizing. If you want to sell parts, you need hype to go with it.

Actually, I've never seen AGD advertise. All of the advertising is done through word of mouth and it's fanbase. I've never seen AGD hype either...


Originally posted by nerobro
Gtrsi: The "stupid" SP fee is evidently large enough to put many paintball buisnesses out of buisness.

Perhaps I just haven't paid any attention, but I haven't heard of a single business going under because of the SP patent, let alone many.

Personally, I think there's a medium that needs to be reached. Do I think *any* business should rush products? Of course not. You end up with things such as the Impulse which still don't always work the way they should. But does that mean you should dump tons of money into R&D and spend years making the perfect marker? No. I know the process for AGD markers is strict and they can take quite a beating and keep going... but is it necessary that they go nuts with it to make sure it can take an hour in the rain and 10 cases of begin fired before needing to be relubed (</sarcasm>)? No.

[Lohman446]

The thing is, lets say that AGD can develop a new gun for even 100K (not possible from what I have seen stated). How is it going to be better than what we have now? What problem is AGD going to fix with the mag now? What is the goal of this new gun?

[speedyejl]

Personally aside from advertising I think people are starting to see AGD's problem to lie in lack of diversity and innovation.

For the most part if not completely all of the last upgrades from AGD (ULE, LX, ULT) have been to dispel popular hype and keep their markers competitive with other markers already in the market.

How come we don't see a new milling style ever year? etc, It doesn't bother me so much but this is sorta just coming from Destructive Custom's thread on PBN and merging it into this one.

Relisitcally there wouldn't be that much R&D involved. We already know a solenoid pulling the sear assy powered by a 9v works and effectively with a ULT. Just work from there, throw a WAS/Egi style board in with the noid and I don't see where theres much more to work on.

Roll out some new bodies and rails made from extrusions as apose to tubes to have some intresting milling going on in addition to puting break beam eyes in.

Performance+Price+Good Looks+ thrown in with some decent advertising and hype from AOers and AGD could have a marker that could really take over the market around $800.

I'm betting we won't see this happen though, it seems that everything being rolled out as of late from AGD is an answer to something.

[Remington]

Originally posted by RRfireblade


Oh,I forgot,AGD never released a product that ended up having issues.:rolleyes:

I never said they didn't. ;)

[Cryer]

Originally posted by Lohman446
The thing is, lets say that AGD can develop a new gun for even 100K (not possible from what I have seen stated). How is it going to be better than what we have now? What problem is AGD going to fix with the mag now? What is the goal of this new gun?

You know, I'm all about AGD. I think they have a very reliable marker base in the mag, however (and I'm not flaming you, here, so please try not to take offense), that viewpoint is ignorant. There is always something to be improved upon. There is always something that can be done.

Functionally and stucturally, I feel the Emag has a ways to go yet. Cosmetically, well... lets just say who else has six holes drilled into the side of their marker (among other things...)?

With a little bit (or alot:confused: ) of money, the emag can be made much smaller, lighter and a lot more stylish. I think in the future, one might very likely see an Emag with a 9-volt battery in the *vert* grip frame, a much smaller sollenoid, a one-piece body (no more rail), total weight being around 1.6 lbs... However, as has been stated, that investment would be foolish in AGD's current circumstances. Regardless of how long the SP litigations go on, or how large a market we see, ultimately it comes down to the fact that Tom sees more about this situation than any of us can, and has done the math. We're just gonna have to wait patiently (or impatiently, whatever:p) on this one, guys.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by Cryer



Functionally and stucturally, I feel the Emag has a ways to go yet. Cosmetically, well... lets just say who else has six holes drilled into the side of their marker (among other things...)?

With a little bit (or alot:confused: ) of money, the emag can be made much smaller, lighter and a lot more stylish. I think in the future, one might very likely see an Emag with a 9-volt battery in the *vert* grip frame, a much smaller sollenoid, a one-piece body (no more rail), total weight being around 1.6 lbs... However, as has been stated, that investment would be foolish in AGD's current circumstances. Regardless of how long the SP litigations go on, or how large a market we see, ultimately it comes down to the fact that Tom sees more about this situation than any of us can, and has done the math. We're just gonna have to wait patiently (or impatiently, whatever:p) on this one, guys.

My viewpoint here is short sighted, let me say that. I am not saying that there are no improvements, it would just be hard for me to name them.

I disagree, I don't think you can gain much functionally or structurally. Part of the ugly type design is strength. Cosmetically, yes they can gain, but I like have a function over form simplicity - I like the looks. I will admit you can have fucntion and form, and that my view on form is in teh minority.

9V - maybe. The battery we have now though was selected based on solid engineering ideas and I don't mind it. Not cheap but I will not go to the extreme of stating that a 9V is a better choice.

Weight... I think we are about to see the bottom of weight be found. The lighter the gun, the tank, the rig, the more prone to recoil it is. I think that guns in the 2-3lb category are where it is going to be ultimately at. I may be wrong.

I agree, something new is coming, something new that will take us by storm, and I beleive in the uber gun Tom has playing in his mind - but I do nto beleive the next big idea is a marker. However, I begin to wonder, how will it be better. BTW, this is stated with a current beleif that we have reached the limits of accuracy with a .68 round projectile, are near the limits of speed (though I do give in to the idea that lower 30s may be attainable - though SPs new patent may prove me very very wrong when (not when not if) its made tournament legal), and weight and efficiency are just numbers that most do not actually care about.

[FooTemps]

E-gun r&d is expensive...

I'm working on a little something and I'm planning on getting 2 different prototypes built. I've designed and written code for each part that needs to be made and have gone around to local mill shops looking for the correct services... Okay, well... bottom line, I can't afford to make 2 prototypes and 1st run of 5 products. I started out with about $1000 and all of that is going to be burned up building the 2 prototypes and 1 test product.

I think I'll probably end up going to a tech college and having a friend mill my prototypes for me using their facilities. That seems like the only possible way for me right now to afford getting past the prototype stage and onto testing.

[speedyejl]

Most people don't care about weight and efficiency? People are snatching up 03 Shockers because their so small, why not get a Matrix that performs better for a cheaper price? Because their big and bulky

Efficiency? Bolt kits are probably the most popular upgrade for Matrices, because they improve efficiency. Not to mention how many people buy aftermarket valves for different markers to make them more efficient or bother to match their paint to their barrel.

A Mag based off a 9v battery would be cheaper by a decent margin than the current design. 9vs are easier to use and it would make the gun much lighter and remove the battery pack stigma.

While their at it an effective break beam ACE system would be nice in addition to a micro switch trigger.

Something that will take paintball by storm? Sounds pretty naive any major changes to the industry would be very slow to take place and most likely be rejected very quickly. Limitations of accuracy? On my NYX the balls are like a laser, ball on ball I couldn't ask for anything more from our current technology accuracy wise because it isn't possible.

[Lohman446]

Please note, my post is not intended to be rude or argumentative, if it is, it was in error


Originally posted by speedyejl
Most people don't care about weight and efficiency? People are snatching up 03 Shockers because their so small, why not get a Matrix that performs better for a cheaper price? Because their big and bulky

But the 03 Shocker is not efficient at all, so efficiency is not the end all be all. Size, wonderful size, what again does it have on the mag? How much smaller can you get? Weight... I think people will eventually realize that there is a trade off to less weight, more recoil. Your right though, we have not yet reached that point, I think we are very very close though.

Efficiency? Bolt kits are probably the most popular upgrade for Matrices, because they improve efficiency. Not to mention how many people buy aftermarket valves for different markers to make them more efficient or bother to match their paint to their barrel.[/QUOTE]

True... to some degree. But most people could play off a 45/45 tank, yet still use 68 for sizing reasons. As people realize they like 68/45 tanks, what is the big deal about efficiency. A lot of markers are still sold on it, but its a number, what was the last marker you saw that could nt make it tthrough a game on the players tank? After that isnt efficiency a moot point.


A Mag based off a 9v battery would be cheaper by a decent margin than the current design. 9vs are easier to use and it would make the gun much lighter and remove the battery pack stigma. [/QUOTE]
But, is the 9V more desirable than what we have now? Honest question.

While their at it an effective break beam ACE system would be nice in addition to a micro switch trigger. [/QUOTE]
Current ACE systems are not effective (dont have one, dont know)? I see no realistic advantage to ACE over LX though I note that ACE may be quicker

Something that will take paintball by storm? Sounds pretty naive any major changes to the industry would be very slow to take place and most likely be rejected very quickly. Limitations of accuracy? On my NYX the balls are like a laser, ball on ball I couldn't ask for anything more from our current technology accuracy wise because it isn't possible. [/QUOTE]
THe pin valve, the six pack, constant air, nitro, the semi-automatic marker, the e-marker, full face masks, jerseys, paintball specific pants, dye stickies. Whats next? EDITED FOR ADDITIONAL EXAMPLES

As for limitations on accuracy... vortex shedding - there is a limit to accuracy and it has to do wtih the projectile and I think we are there for all useful purposes.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by Lohman446
But the 03 Shocker is not efficient at all, so efficiency is not the end all be all. Size, wonderful size, what again does it have on the mag? How much smaller can you get? Weight... I think people will eventually realize that there is a trade off to less weight, more recoil. Your right though, we have not yet reached that point, I think we are very very close though.

In either case, a lighter body will only create more recoil if the moving mass is not reduced with it.


Originally posted by Lohman446
True... to some degree. But most people could play off a 45/45 tank, yet still use 68 for sizing reasons. As people realize they like 68/45 tanks, what is the big deal about efficiency. A lot of markers are still sold on it, but its a number, what was the last marker you saw that could nt make it tthrough a game on the players tank? After that isnt efficiency a moot point.

There is supposedly a new bolt coming out that will increase efficiency on the '03 Shocker. Personally, I'd rather be able to go a few games *then* wait once in line to get a fill than to fill after every game.


Originally posted by Lohman446
But, is the 9V more desirable than what we have now? Honest question.

Depends on who you ask. Personally, I already have several rechargable batteries so I'd be fine for as long as it got more than a case off a battery (which it damn well better...)


Originally posted by Lohman446
Current ACE systems are not effective (dont have one, dont know)? I see no realistic advantage to ACE over LX though I note that ACE may be quicker

Quicker and IMO, more reliable. I've played with my friends X-Mag and chopped several times with the LX. Granted, I like the idea of pinching in addition to an eye (pref breakbeam) but if I have to set up the LX to work on a particular day or with particular paint.. why not just use an eye? Granted it's a great mech solution, but I don't think it's a great substitution.

[Kevmag]

Originally posted by speedyejl
Personally aside from advertising I think people are starting to see AGD's problem to lie in lack of diversity and innovation.

For the most part if not completely all of the last upgrades from AGD (ULE, LX, ULT) have been to dispel popular hype and keep their markers competitive with other markers already in the market.

How come we don't see a new milling style ever year? etc, It doesn't bother me so much but this is sorta just coming from Destructive Custom's thread on PBN and merging it into this one.

Relisitcally there wouldn't be that much R&D involved. We already know a solenoid pulling the sear assy powered by a 9v works and effectively with a ULT. Just work from there, throw a WAS/Egi style board in with the noid and I don't see where theres much more to work on.

Roll out some new bodies and rails made from extrusions as apose to tubes to have some intresting milling going on in addition to puting break beam eyes in.

Performance+Price+Good Looks+ thrown in with some decent advertising and hype from AOers and AGD could have a marker that could really take over the market around $800.

I'm betting we won't see this happen though, it seems that everything being rolled out as of late from AGD is an answer to something.

I'm guessing AGD doesn't not share the same views as you and others that feel cosmetic changes (milling, colors for example) are "innovations". Judging from how long it took for the ULE bodies and X-Mag to come out, I'd bet these type of requests bothers him a little.

From a couple other posts that he has started/responded, he would prefer to make a revolutionary marker. I'm guessing he doesn't want another "a solenoid pulling the sear assy powered by a 9v works and effectively with a ULT. Just work from there, throw a WAS/Egi style board in with the noid and I don't see where theres much more to work on."

My guess on why doesn't he make this revolutionary marker: There is no incentive right now. Current markers are selling well. He's has succeeded in extending the life of current product lines by smartly designed upgrades. The current line of products (cash cows) are probably extremely profitable after being in production for so long (another guess).

I bet he's waiting on the outcome of the SP lawsuit to see how it will effect future electronic markers (how much royalties will be required). If SP "wins", I bet he spends the money on development of a marker that will not be subject to the patent. He has hinted at a mech marker that is efficent with performance that matches or exceeds electros. A marker like this could be more profitable for AGD b/c no royalty payment (but able to charge electro prices due to similar performance).

These are all guesses based on what I read on these boards. One thing I'm pretty sure of is that AGD will not invest in new marker to "prove" that he can do it. It is too much of a gamble.

[Wolfen]

The way I see it, it's just like poker. Tom is waiting for SP to make its move. He's probably got a few good cards he can play, but it's all dependant on how SP plays theirs.

Unfortunately business has a few more variables to it than poker. It has outside pressures trying to force their hand. If he plays it too early, he could get burned. Play it too late, he loses support.

Who knows, this could be all mindless babble because I don't know the first thing about the inner workings of the paintball industry. Like someone stated earlier, Tom most likely has all facets of what he faces covered. Lets just wait for SP to play their hand, and when they do, then we'll probably see Tom let loose with ideas.

[myangelrocks]

Originally posted by AGD
Well the cost to buy the first inventory for a new electronic gun is at least 500,000 dollars. If you thought you were gonig to be in court any time soon over them would you spend that money up front?

AGD


i wish all the smart parts supporters would read that. time and time again i've heard them cry "it's not going to affect us the consumer." well thanks to the gardners greed we're missing out on a new product.

bottom line is that it's tom's company and he can run it how he sees fit, regardless of anyone's opinion. and to tell you the truth i don't blame him. i wouldn't want any of my hard earned cash going towards someone's outlandish claims.

[Rope a Dope]

Originally posted by AGD
Well the cost to buy the first inventory for a new electronic gun is at least 500,000 dollars. If you thought you were gonig to be in court any time soon over them would you spend that money up front?

AGD

How about UPGRADING a current product? Such as upgrading something that can make use of that 26+ bps valve??

Mags have a bad rep, make it as fast as the current stock of markers out there and you'll still carry the bad rep, make it faster and people will start to ask questions, which is when they'll find out mags have really changed since the 68Automag.

Don't think an extra 6bps matters? Try some market research outside of IL and outside of the mag cult.

[edweird]

Honestly once this whole SP thing calms down... this is the logical direction I see it going.

AGD dumping the current lines to build something compleatly diffrent is simply redicilious... as Tk said it would cost more than anyone could justify

AGD's next logical step in the E/Xmags is a redesign of the boards to allow further upgradability and utility of current technology. For instance the current Emag board was designed to pull a sear from a lvl 7 bolt and push a non ULT on/off pin.

Yes I know that the ULT wasnt designed for the Emag.. but im under the impression that a redesigned board / solenoid / battery combo would include these emerging items.

I know that 'cue has expressed that a chip with more memory would be highly desireable and allow much more flexability in programing...

Also im sure that the addition of the LvL 10 bolt and the ULT could possibly be used to rework the solenoid requirements...

and since the solenoid could be scaled down... as could the battery. Oh and since that would happen cheaper and more user friendly battery systems could be used. Be it 9 volts or hell even Black and Decker Versapacks... we could say goodbye forever to the proprietary chargers and embrace something more userfriendly (/cough id like some kick back from black and decker if we go with the versapack idea :P) Personally im not a fan of the 9v idea... cause well I give duracell and them other dielectric peddlers to damn much of my cash, and well if I wanted another 9v oldschool egrip id buy a hyperframe. But that isnt what I want... /sigh

and since were at it... someone can answer the long standing question of its worth staying with the HES or going to something like the optical switch.

anyhow that is my opinion and well whoever is gonna try and recreate the wheel known as the AGD Emag board ... may the force be with you. cause I wont be (unless ya intergrate the versapack :P)

[hardr0ck68]

Ok first i admit i got so upset i stopped reading just to post....

But yeah if its so cheap and easy, and any idiot with $1000 can do it why dont you dopes design a new electro? And pay the stupid little licenssing fee from SP which has killed ICD (making them sell out to the PB triumberate Sp, Dye, and National). I mean if you are right you should ahve enough cash left over to buy lunch at the end of the easy day of attaching 'noids to anything that moves on your new super-paint-tommy-gun.

But yes please, design your own guns for production (this means from the ground up, no hyperframe parts or morlock board) then tell me it was cheap and easy...

[shartley]

LOL You just have to LOVE the ruckus a “sound bite” generates. Tom sure has mastered THAT one. ;)

I see a lot of things posted in this thread that just don’t hold up to scrutiny.. but they DO if you WANT to believe them. I will let everyone determine for themselves what I am talking about. (And no, it was not specifically what Tom wrote, but what his “defense team” wrote. ;) )

And the comments about SP forcing business “out of business”, they were a bit misleading as well. Partnerships, alliances, and rights fees are a part of every industry. And the blending and changing of businesses is also a part of that. Choice are made, and the reasons for those choices are many.

If AGD chooses not to make a particular marker, it is because THEY chose not to. We all know that if anyone wants to produce any product, and they have the means to do so, and are willing to follow the law, they CAN. It does not HAVE to be all in their court, or have them be the ONLY one making money off of the product. Think about it folks, if AGD Farms out its parts ANYWAYS, some other company is already making money off of AGD’s products.

So what would the difference be with licensing fees? It is part of the overall cost of the product. And it is seen in every industry. Why is the Paintball Industry acting so “affronted” by the concept? Good question. And licensing fees have not caused the collapse of other industries, nor has it prevented products from being made, NOR advances in product design from going forward.

But we hear this tossed out all the time in the paintball industry? Why? Because it would not be “as easy”? I admit that, but that is FAR from saying it is impossible, nor even feasible.

The number of paintball markers available to the playing public has increased, not decreased since the original SP patent issue.

If Tom and AGD want to produce any given product, they CAN. But do they want to? Good question. Do they have the funding to do so? Good question. But that applies to me and every other company as well. We often can not make what we WANT to make because of financial as well as other resource issues. But that does not mean we are being prevented from doing so by some other larger company.

I am sure SP would be more than willing to work with AGD on ANY project, but would AGD be willing to work with SP? Good question. Then you have to ask yourself who is really to blame for the product not being made?

I know who it would be most popular to blame….. but that does not always indicate true ownership of the blame. ;)

[Automaggot68]

To Shartley:
Excellent post, Amen.

[C_22]

To Rope a Dope:

True, rep goes a long way. Down here not many are fond of mags in their electronic versions. It's sad because if they studied the gun a bit (and thus understand the many advanteges mags have over many markers out there - like beeing simple in it's own design for a start) I bet they'd be more popular down here.

People here only buy a marker for three reasons:

1. What pro player uses it?
2. Is it "pimping"?
3. Can it be manipulated in order to get a mad ROF?

Sad IMHO.