ATTN: Tom Kaye! No more Xmags?!?!

[Rope a Dope]

This thread: http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126868



..and This was posted on my forums at http://www.valleythunder.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1125:


FYI
Re: legal action

I sent a pick of new x-mag grips to the store owner where I bought the marker. This was the unexpected response ...

"That looks awesome! It is so crazy that you e-mailed me because I was just wondering the other day if you were liking your X-Mag. We have 2 more on order for ourselves and yesterday my rep told me after this run
they aren't making any more, due to pending legal action. So I guess you should feel fortunate you managed to get one when you did!"

I emailed them and asked if it had to do with SP. The answer was that all parties have been asked to comply with a gag order and can't discuss details, BUT, referring to the offender as Dumb Parts would not be inaccurate. This is by no means a confirmed situation, just heresay, but it would be very sad if it were true.



eh! What's going on?!?!

[Toranaga]

its the quite before the storm

[Rope a Dope]

we need a press release STAT!

[Got_Paint]

alright I wanted to make sure that people wouldnt be confused. I pulled that off the POG when we were talking about the recent SP patent, the thread can be found here

http://www.paintmagazine.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.pl?forum=8&thread=11399

Hope this clears everything up

[FreakBaller12]

oh no, no more x's. can somebody put it in sutpid peopel terms so i dont have to read everything!?

ahh if this is true sp, sp ahhh!, i hope you fall off the face of this planet.

[Lee]

time to go to sams club and buy an industrial sized can of WHOOP ***!

[Mindflux]

That makes no sense, why no Xmags, but still emags, it's the same grip frame and all..

[Miscue]

Because AGDE makes the XMag body, not AGD. And, it's a pain for them to get them. I wonder if there's going to be an alternative...

[joshweinerhead]

this is rather low that SP stooped to these levels, they can mess with ICD and AKALMP but the second you start with AGD .. well your gonna have some problems

little do they realize AGD has AO and thousands of loyal members .. what does smart parts have ?? a few good teams

ITS WAR ... NO MORE X = NO MORE SHOCKERS/ IMPULSES

who is with me?

[Got_Paint]

lets keep in mind this has not been made official so we don't know if this is true or not

[Rope a Dope]

I remember seeing on TV where farmers would load up tractors full of cow poo and dump them on their banks doorstep because the bank was screwing them, and the farmer was only givn' a ticket of $50 for littering.

So uh.. anyone got a tractor and the address to Smart Parts HQ? :)

[joshweinerhead]

a tractor? thats kinda weak .. lets call in the airforce .. or better yet where is Army when you need him?

[shartley]

Yes, this has not been confirmed by anyone. And if it was true, the reason for it has not been confirmed either.

As miscue said, it may be a “body” issue, not a grip frame issue.

Not everything that happens in the world is caused by SP… contrary to popular belief. So this may or may not be an SP issue.

[rkjunior303]

Or maybe they just want to catch up on their preorder list before they make that list any larger.

[shartley]

Plus keep in mind that over the years we have heard on AO about more than one Field Owner or Shop Owner that has told customers that AGD was either not in business any more or was going out of business. ;)

[jayloo]

Nicad better get ready for the onslought of orders for Karta/Cord/Dalara body/rail combos.:D

[Rope a Dope]

Originally posted by shartley

Not everything that happens in the world is caused by SP… contrary to popular belief. So this may or may not be an SP issue.

Yeah but there was a part about a gag order being issued to one of the retailers.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Rope a Dope


Yeah but there was a part about a gag order being issued to one of the retailers.
Stated by whom? Read my post above. ;) You can not believe everything you hear just because it comes from someone who either owns a store/field, or someone speaking on their behalf.

“I can’t tell you because I have been told not to talk about it” is often used to give credence to pure gossip. When in all actuality, if they WERE given a gag order, they shouldn’t have even made the statement they DID. After all, they were not to discuss it right?

[joshweinerhead]

either way im blaming it on SP

[68magOwner]

OMG, well now i dont know if i should feel evil or lucky that i just got a SP marker (used, they didnt profit) anyway, im concidering having it sent to my good friend teh lazer engraver to have anti-SP stuff put on it :mad:

[Miscue]

Well, whatever it is I hope it has an ACE. LX works, but it takes way longer than an ACE to get your next shot off.

[penguinpunk555]

If we destroy them now we won't have to deal with them later... mauhahhahaa

[SirTim]

This legal thing will most likely effect all electronic marker manufactures, not just AGD right?

So if you more Xmags, we can still get the Emag right?

Tim

[SirTim]

If it's true, I say we boycott everything by SP.

[Rope a Dope]

Originally posted by Miscue
Well, whatever it is I hope it has an ACE. LX works, but it takes way longer than an ACE to get your next shot off.

I have two words for you.

Hay. Low.

[RoadDawg]

Originally posted by SirTim
This legal thing will most likely effect all electronic marker manufactures, not just AGD right?

So if you more Xmags, we can still get the Emag right?

Tim

My guess is that if SP has something to do with this the Emag will also be on the chopping block as it uses the same frame as the Xmag. I wouldn't be suprised if AGD is halting production to see what the SP problem would do for them as they aren't exactly a huge company. SP has done what is best for them and by doing so they are getting money. It's obvious that if they are winning cases that they have a good strong case. Even the average joe lawyer can see the difference between good and bad cases. I personally would wait for a official notice from AGD before jumping to conclusions.

[gibby]

Originally posted by Rope a Dope


I have two words for you.

Hay. Low.
I'm sure he was talking about the lag time of waiting for the bolt to reset. With a better working ace, it just won't fire.

[tony3]

This means one thing, the black market for xmags is going to be booming:eek:

[MicroMiniMe]

I'm thinking its just supply and demand and basic economics for AGD and not related to SP at the moment.
AGDE could never keep up with the supply for X-Mag bodies and holds the body patent. So AGD wasn't making as much as it could from its own flagship high end marker. Hows those warp modules coming for all you on the list.
Also notice Nicads signature since the Karta came out?
***
ColinMoritz

Chord, Chord V2, Dallara, Karta, current project: (coming soon)

***
Could be warp Sluggo with unfinished rail combo for more milling options or a different modular body without a rail. The SFLs had integrated bodies and breeches, so I don't know what is covered by AGDE with X-Mags patent.
I'm guessing the X-Mag wasn't as profitable and frustrating at the same time not being able to meet demand, and a new body will become the current flagship or possible dropdown body options in buying a new emag. I wouldn't expect a new electro gripframe anytime soon, but bodies with warp or verticle and factory ACE as an option might be the ticket.
/speculation

[Corbet]

What I dont understand is why AGD decided to suddenly stop making anything electronic just because of the threat of SP. I've heard that they have proto electronic frames lying around for regular mags that they had planned on releasing but they might not due to SP. I may be blind, but I dont see other companies halting there electronic markers because of the threat to SP. Did WDP not release the angel 4 because of SP's threat? no. Why should AGD?

[Rope a Dope]

Originally posted by gibby

I'm sure he was talking about the lag time of waiting for the bolt to reset. With a better working ace, it just won't fire.

I know, but with a Halo, fresh batteries and the Z-Code I hardly ever pinch one. When I empty a hopper at 20bps, I may pinch one out of the hopper, and for some reason my bolt resets instantly, where most other mags I have worked on the bolt hangs up until I hit the trigger again. I think mine is just broken in and tuned very well.

I use niMah rechargable batteries in my Halo which last longer and supply more power which makes it feed faster. I hardly ever NEED my lvl X.

[thecavemankevin]

Originally posted by Rope a Dope


I use niMah rechargable batteries in my Halo which last longer and supply more power which makes it feed faster. I hardly ever NEED my lvl X.

which niMah batteries do you use? I have been thinking about getting some for my halo

[Rope a Dope]

Panosonic 2100

Works great!

[Mindflux]

Yeah I bought some of those expensive energizer lithiums, while they were light as allheck, I didnt see my halo feeding any faster than my 2000 mAH Rayovacs.

[Odder]

Originally posted by joshweinerhead
this is rather low that SP stooped to these levels, they can mess with ICD and AKALMP but the second you start with AGD .. well your gonna have some problems

little do they realize AGD has AO and thousands of loyal members .. what does smart parts have ?? a few good teams

ITS WAR ... NO MORE X = NO MORE SHOCKERS/ IMPULSES

who is with me?

good luck with that one :(, its seems that every Forum there are people talking about boycotts or protest, but guess for every one person that shouts SP sucks, there are same number of people saying how sweet the *insert team name here* Shocker looks and how they wish they have one blah, blah....

[chizle97]

Alright, that is the last straw!! It is time to unleash the most secret of wepons onto the "Dumb" parts family. I call it opperation "superglue everything in the CEO's house to the celling!" It will be glorious. They will come n and be like " hey all the stuff is glued to the celling. Mabey it was wrong of us to be blatently selfish by gerneralizing our pattent to anything that fires a paintball" Thats what happens when you mess with chizles life. Your world turns upside down. :mad:

[GT]

Originally posted by tony3
This means one thing, the black market for xmags is going to be booming:eek:

yea right,
consider that there are only a few SLF's and guys have to dam near give those away at 12-1300 bucks, if that.

I think it is pretty rare for any gun to apperciate..

[Dayspring]

So would you like to give some sort of credibility to this or keep feeding people BS?



Originally posted by Corbet
What I dont understand is why AGD decided to suddenly stop making anything electronic just because of the threat of SP. I've heard that they have proto electronic frames lying around for regular mags that they had planned on releasing but they might not due to SP.

[GT]

I have a feeling, ( I do not have any insider info just a guess from your buddy gtrsi here on AO )

Maybe AGD is going to make a regular Emag and one that the user has a choice of upgrading w/ ACE and one if Nicad's bodies.

Lets see how close I get :D

EDIT: either that or they are making a really cool Mech...

[Steelrat]

Much as I like Nicad's work, I still think the X looks the best.

[Rope a Dope]

meh... I like the ULE E-Mag the best.

X-Mags look all... fruity and english.

Sleeeeeeek and black!

[Steelrat]

Oh yeah, those big ol holes on the side sure are sleek ;)

Seriously, the X has a classic look. Understated and elegant.

[ERut]

eh. My favorite's still the chord bodies.

[Rope a Dope]

Originally posted by Steelrat
Oh yeah, those big ol holes on the side sure are sleek ;)

Seriously, the X has a classic look. Understated and elegant.

Mine doesn't have any :D

The X looks like an english faucet. It's nice and all... not as bad as that fruity dragon intimidator, but I think an all ULE E-Mag looks sleek. But thats just me.

[AGD]

Yes there is an announcement but we are not ready to talk about it at this time. We are NOT in any legal situation with Smart Parts. Go ahead and speculate all you want because if I told you not too you would anyway. It will all make sense in the end.

AGD

[Steelrat]

Wow, it sucks only knowing 50% of what is going on, and the bad 50% at that.

But surely you can answer this question. Can you still pre-order an X-mag?

[breg]

Could give us a date as to when you are ready to talk? That would help quell some of the speculation...

[Kevmaster]

Originally posted by AGD
Yes there is an announcement but we are not ready to talk about it at this time. We are NOT in any legal situation with Smart Parts. Go ahead and speculate all you want because if I told you not too you would anyway. It will all make sense in the end.

AGD

wow...

so, tom, got any extra X-Mags lying around you want to sell off?
lol! I want a collector's item

[edweird]

/scratces head @ TK's post... Um yeah wha?

TK do me this... "Hey guys dont worry about it... stuff is being handled"

[USAF-Flyboy with a Mag]

Hmmm...interesting...Glad I got my Xmag already =)

[AGD]

I didn't answer because I am busy doing stuff tonight but I see that its going to cause a big ruckus if I dont.

Here is the short explanation. AGDE has taken a job to run the National Paintball Europe distribution center. They will still distribute our products but making bodies is not high on the list. They are machining the last of the extrusions so there will only be one more batch of about 50 xmags. Some people on the list will not get them, sorry I dont know what to say.

The Emag is going on 4 years old and is due for a complete revamp. We will be selling off the last of them (about 250) and discontinuing that product.

Now the bad news, with the current legal situations going on in paintball it is not strategicaly smart for us to invest in a new e-marker at this time. We are going to wait until the dust settles and see who comes out on top before we proceed with a new design.

We will work slowly on a new concept that will eliminate the large battery and charger, incorporate the ULT trigger system and completely new electronics. We don't expect to introduce this marker until 2005 if it makes sense to do so.

The point of all this is that we are making these decisions based on industry influences. Our customers have nothing to do with the products we do or don't develop these days. Think about it.

AGD

[RoadDawg]

Originally posted by AGD
I didn't answer because I am busy doing stuff tonight but I see that its going to cause a big ruckus if I dont.

Here is the short explanation. AGDE has taken a job to run the National Paintball Europe distribution center. They will still distribute our products but making bodies is not high on the list. They are machining the last of the extrusions so there will only be one more batch of about 50 xmags. Some people on the list will not get them, sorry I dont know what to say.

The Emag is going on 4 years old and is due for a complete revamp. We will be selling off the last of them (about 250) and discontinuing that product.

Now the bad news, with the current legal situations going on in paintball it is not strategicaly smart for us to invest in a new e-marker at this time. We are going to wait until the dust settles and see who comes out on top before we proceed with a new design.

We will work slowly on a new concept that will eliminate the large battery and charger, incorporate the ULT trigger system and completely new electronics. We don't expect to introduce this marker until 2005 if it makes sense to do so.

The point of all this is that we are making these decisions based on industry influences. Our customers have nothing to do with the products we do or don't develop these days. Think about it.

AGD

Wow Tom. I'm blown away but yet I totally understand. Seems completely logical to me. Should be interesting to say the least.

[gibby]

Indeed! At least it'll give me about a year to save up right Tom?! :) Good luck!!!

[Kasper]

AGD - "They are machining the last of the extrusions so there will only be one more batch of about 50 xmags. Some people on the list will not get them, sorry I dont know what to say."



Bah! I wish they were open so I could call and see where I am on the list... the suspense is KILLING me!

Open-Open-Open

[AGD]

Even if your low on the Xmag list hang in there. About half of the people on order don't want them when we call.

AGD

[Rope a Dope]

Thank you Tom for letting us all know whats going on.

It sucks... but understandable. Seems SP did have a part in this, now the whole reason why.. but they still have something to do with all this. Really sucks man...

I wonder what AKA is doing since they seem to be going head on with SP.

Sounds like you'll be taking care of everyones gripes about the E/X-Mag. Such as battery pack and no .45 frame. Theses kids shoot my E-Mag and love everytyhing about it but won't get one because of the battery pack and they can't put Dye Stickys on the grip frame :rolleyes:

[Brophog]

Thanks for the report Tom.

Don't answer this, but in my mind, where's the future revenue coming for this company if you no longer have a electronic presence in the industry?

I mean, from all accounts, electronics are what is driving the sport, atleast from the competitive side. The rec side is either copying the competitive side, in which they are using electronic markers, or they are copying the scenario side. In the case of the latter, more interest is being turned towards a realistic product, with less interest being placed on marker performance.

I guess what I am saying is, you seem to be left with the RT Series of markers. Even with the RT and ULT technology, it doesn't seem like AGD has a marker to satisfy either the competitive side or rec side at this time. I could just as easily point this question to other non electronic, non entry level companies as well, including WGP and others.

[Kasper]

I'm not sure whether you're up early or late... but that's some customer service! Thanks for the quick response and the encouragement. I'm crossin' everything I've got.


Right about now I could use an X-Mag scalper... You don't want one?! Sell me your spot on the list!

[Gadget]

Whoa, didn't see that announcement coming :(

If a new 'E' isn't a viable proposition - why not get hold of nicad and develop his ram-powered non-electro grip frame?

Locate a 3 way in the FBM, ram in the frame to trip the sear and have all the mount points and milling in place for users to retro fit a morlock, solenoid and eyes as aftermarket parts.

[Remington]

I can't wait to see what you come up with Tom! Thanks for the update! :)

[shartley]

Now THAT is what I was expecting to hear. Thank you Tom for posting.

I am sorry that the E and X Mag are going away, but I am sure they will be replaced with an even better products that will allow AGD the chance to compete at an even higher level. All my best, and good luck. I can’t wait to see what you folks have cooking.

[breg]

Awwwww damn, I was going to buy an X Mag with my re-enlistment bonus. Well, I guess I'll just buy one used...

or!

just wait to see what AGD rolls out next!:D
I'm sure that it will blow the X out of the water.

P.S. We need to come up with a working title for this thing. How about call it the Thing or The Gizmo? Just for continuity's sake. I think the AGD Thing or the AGD Gizmo could be a good working title for this as-of-yet undeveloped markler...

[jayloo]

WOW! I don't know what to say. I an on the list for an xmag this time. I sure hope I get one.

[Crighton]

So what exactly is AGD's current marker product line, RTP custom?

The classic, mini, E and X are all going? The Classic and the Mini have been missing from AGD's online store for a while now, PBGear has them on clearance but almost no stock. Then Tom says the E and the X are going.

Stopping production of the older models and using the remaining parts for tac-ones?

[Despoiler]

SP should still be boycotted. Screw them.

[rkjunior303]

Wow, defintely a surprise but it makes sense when you look at the greater picture... Obviously, the E-Mag has served everyone well but being 4 years now the need for a new product is definitely out there... With the whole SP thing, why bother taking all of those resources towards developing a new e-marker (along with spending a boatload of cash in the process) if 6 months down the line you find it will infringe on the patent... From what I've seen, AGD always has something up their sleeve and with the ULT among other things, the mechanical marker I am sure will still be the best on the market.

Besides, there are plenty of e-mags out there and with the quality that goes into them buying one used is probably just as safe a bet as buying one new -- with the proper maintenence.....

Good luck guys!

[Vendetta]

How will the warranties by affected? What if my X breaks down in a couple of years?

[tyrion2323]

am I the only one who LIKES the emag's looks?

Jacob

[GT]

Originally posted by Vendetta
How will the warranties by affected? What if my X breaks down in a couple of years?

Bro,
AGD gots yo' back. Anything happens they will be more than happy to service the products they sold you. AGD is not like WDP that just leaves you haning in the wind when they build a new product...

jb

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by Gadget
Whoa, didn't see that announcement coming :(

If a new 'E' isn't a viable proposition - why not get hold of nicad and develop his ram-powered non-electro grip frame?

Locate a 3 way in the FBM, ram in the frame to trip the sear and have all the mount points and milling in place for users to retro fit a morlock, solenoid and eyes as aftermarket parts.

amen to dat brudah...:)

[rkjunior303]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke


amen to dat brudah...:)

you mean like this?

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125891

[Jack & Coke]

yup!;)

or even an pneumag like: http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94401

[rkjunior303]

It's the resources like here on AO that really impresses me. There are alot of really SMART people working on these things.. IF a 2nd generation emag comes out, I wonder if designs like this will ever influence it.. going by the electro i posted from the workshop forum, imagine having an emag grade gun in the space of your intelliframe.. MAYBE having to use some small pneumatics up front....

I can't wait to see what's in store -- its worth the wait :)

[DiRTyBuNNy]

wow...I didn't see this coming *gasp*...yeah...as if...you people should have seen this coming a mile away...but you were too busy staring at your little X-Mag's through rose colored goggles..


-dB

[Mango]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
wow...I didn't see this coming *gasp*...yeah...as if...you people should have seen this coming a mile away...but you were too busy staring at your little X-Mag's through rose colored goggles..


-dB


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Anyway,


I totally understand what AGD has to do. It would be great if people start realizing how nice the ULT mechanical mags are.

For those not on the list just keep checking Ebay, they pop up all the time for around $1,200.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
wow...I didn't see this coming *gasp*...yeah...as if...you people should have seen this coming a mile away...but you were too busy staring at your little X-Mag's through rose colored goggles..


-dB

Yeah, cos we all have the power of clairvoyance and could see the AGD-E/NPS deal coming :rolleyes:

...and besides I've got an E, not a X. ;)

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Originally posted by SprayingMango



:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Anyway,


I totally understand what AGD has to do. It would be great if people start realizing how nice the ULT mechanical mags are.

For those not on the list just keep checking Ebay, they pop up all the time for around $1,200.

I don't know if it's just ignorancy or idiocy but why can't people realize that this was going to happen not matter what went on with the SP suit...it was inevitable...AGD cannot compete on the world stage of what is now the Industry machine of paintball.

Paintball is not going to go back to the dark ages of Pumps and Mechanical markers...no matter what you think of your blessed AGD it's just not going to happen...Companies like NPS, Dye and SP aren't stupid enough to ignore their bottom line and let it happen...and you may get Mechanical only tournaments...but they'll be a fad just like pump tournaments are..

and you can roll your eyes at me all day Mango...it still doesn't change the fact that people outside of the Cult of AO have been taking side bets on how long AGD was going to last for years now...just because they were wrong up to this point didn't automatically mean you were right either...

[Vendetta]

You all be nice to DB. If it wasn't for him, I wouldn't have gotten my X-Mag.:D




AGD gots yo' back. Anything happens they will be more than happy to service the products they sold you. AGD is not like WDP that just leaves you haning in the wind when they build a new product...

Oh, I have no doubt about that.

[orpheos]

I've got Dirty Bunny's old Magma Xmag. Played 3 days on it, so I think it has 5 days total played on it. I think I'm going to support AKA and buy a viking if anyone is interested in the Xmag. I'm sure there are pictures of it around. Let me know if you're interested. I've added a blade trigger to it which is nice, but I just can't get any local support for it in Socal. I will tell you that if you don't align the breech correctly, it will reset the level 10. I'm assuming I won't be able to get this fixed based on the information in this post.

[SPLASH1]

I must say I thought this might happen. I am just dissapointed because I finally found a marker that works great. I am still going to shoot my e-mag till it is completely worn out. The thing I love best about the AGD is that they have always put out a superior product. When I got my current e-mag it had been sitting on a wall for two years. They went through it and got everything work great, without charging me anything. In the tournament seen our markers must be reliable, light, and accurate. I have shot many markers and this is the only one that has had all three qualities. Thanks you Tom for making the best marker I have owned.
David

[RoadDawg]

Originally posted by orpheos
I've got Dirty Bunny's old Magma Xmag. Played 3 days on it, so I think it has 5 days total played on it. I think I'm going to support AKA and buy a viking if anyone is interested in the Xmag. I'm sure there are pictures of it around. Let me know if you're interested. I've added a blade trigger to it which is nice, but I just can't get any local support for it in Socal. I will tell you that if you don't align the breech correctly, it will reset the level 10. I'm assuming I won't be able to get this fixed based on the information in this post.
One person is more local then others and that man is RogueFactor (SoCal all the way). He isn't in the emag realm but I have a feeling that he'll be joining that side quickly. Anyways. You should be able to get it fixed through AGD but they'd probably have to get another one anno'ed for ya. Give AGD a call and have them take a look at it as it is a manufacturing defect with that breech.

[Mango]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy


I don't know if it's just ignorancy or idiocy but why can't people realize that this was going to happen not matter what went on with the SP suit...it was inevitable...AGD cannot compete on the world stage of what is now the Industry machine of paintball.

Paintball is not going to go back to the dark ages of Pumps and Mechanical markers...no matter what you think of your blessed AGD it's just not going to happen...Companies like NPS, Dye and SP aren't stupid enough to ignore their bottom line and let it happen...and you may get Mechanical only tournaments...but they'll be a fad just like pump tournaments are..

and you can roll your eyes at me all day Mango...it still doesn't change the fact that people outside of the Cult of AO have been taking side bets on how long AGD was going to last for years now...just because they were wrong up to this point didn't automatically mean you were right either...

I will roll my eyes at you all I want, it makes me feel good to do so. Also, most of us knew this was going to happen anyway. It surely does not spell the end of AGD. The thing is, many of us on here believe in AGD and feel proud to own AGD Markers. A few of us have gone to many meets and done many things with the people who work there. So I know a lot of us feel some sort of connection to the company that goes deeper than just owning a product. I know I personally have many GREAT friendships that I cherrish just because of it. So when something like this happens, it effects some of us differently. You wouldnt know anything about this and can't relate, which is understandable and its a shame.

In a way I guess some of us didn't want to accept it. At the same time we are loyal to something that is much more than just a company that sells Paintball markers to the masses. Again you can't relate. Because to some of us AGD and AO are something far greater than what they seem to be on the surface. We will ride it out along with Tom and everyone at AGD and are confident that everything will pan out in the end. If you call the frienships I've built and the great people I've met here a "Cult" then so be it. Oh and for good measure: :rolleyes:




:D

[Chronobreak]

tom were all sure u have something hidden up your sleve well we hope so good luck for know and lets not be ket waiting tooo long

[einhander619]

Originally posted by Gadget
Locate a 3 way in the FBM, ram in the frame to trip the sear and have all the mount points and milling in place for users to retro fit a morlock, solenoid and eyes as aftermarket parts.

Word to that! :)

Ok, here's the new SP gameplan, call Dubya and Osama, tell them that the other one's going to be at the SP factory on the same day. With any luck, the whole situation will just work itself out from there!

[Athius]

Originally posted by AGD


Now the bad news, with the current legal situations going on in paintball it is not strategicaly smart for us to invest in a new e-marker at this time. We are going to wait until the dust settles and see who comes out on top before we proceed with a new design.

We will work slowly on a new concept that will eliminate the large battery and charger, incorporate the ULT trigger system and completely new electronics. We don't expect to introduce this marker until 2005 if it makes sense to do so.


AGD

FINALLY!!!!!! A NEW GUN!!! This is not bad news for me they are good so im gonna be back with a mag in 2 years.

[C_22]

Damn, crossed feelings! Happy on one side, a tad sad on the other. I've had many markers but the X-Mag is the one I'll be burried with.

I'm totally confident that this is for good, and even if it will be a harsh wait, it's a guaratee that what ever lies beyond the mountains will Rock 'n Roll.

Shine on AGD!

[Vendetta]

FINALLY!!!!!! A NEW GUN!!! This is not bad news for me they are good so im gonna be back with a mag in 2 years.

2005 is next year.

[fallout11]

I saw this coming, months ago.
The problem was simple, really...

1) X-mags were too much of a headache to produce, and could not be produced in sufficient numbers to meet demand. Various patents required to make them were owned by AGDE, not AGD proper, preventing outsourcing.
Overall profit on each was small, and the "average" paintballer would never buy one, even if they were the only marker in existance. Just too expensive. A big white elephant, in business terms.

2) The E-mag is an old design, as far as electronic guns go. As Tom says, 4 years old, and quite ready for revision. Who buys a 1999 Intimidator anymore? Dated design, big and clunky.

3) The Smart Parts litigation, or more correctly, the climate it has created, is indeed already stiffling innovation and the development of new products. Just as predicted. Mr. Kaye has now provided us with a graphic illustration, and his own testimony to this effect.

4) The classic and minimag were already being phased out, as was the classic and retro valves. One valve line is smart, 3 is not. Consolidation is good business sense.

5) The new ULE and tac-one body effectly made the stainless parts obsolete. Time to clean out the old, as Tom has posted in several threads over the last few months. I expect to see warp feeds discontinued in the forseeable future, due to slumping demand. Price has already fallen precipitously.

Tom is correct...business decisions are made based on industry trends, not customer desire. Every one of these decisions is sound, from a company perspective.

My concern is that this leaves AGD in a uneviable position, with but 2 primary products: The ULE mag, and the tac-one. Neither are exacly top of the line, and neither are entry-level markers.
Time will tell what this means for AGD in the long run, but I'm beginning to fear that those naysayers who predicted they would not even be around in 4 more years might be right.
I sure hope they are wrong.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by SprayingMango


I will roll my eyes at you all I want, it makes me feel good to do so. Also, most of us knew this was going to happen anyway. It surely does not spell the end of AGD. The thing is, many of us on here believe in AGD and feel proud to own AGD Markers. A few of us have gone to many meets and done many things with the people who work there. So I know a lot of us feel some sort of connection to the company that goes deeper than just owning a product. I know I personally have many GREAT friendships that I cherrish just because of it. So when something like this happens, it effects some of us differently. You wouldnt know anything about this and can't relate, which is understandable and its a shame.

In a way I guess some of us didn't want to accept it. At the same time we are loyal to something that is much more than just a company that sells Paintball markers to the masses. Again you can't relate. Because to some of us AGD and AO are something far greater than what they seem to be on the surface. We will ride it out along with Tom and everyone at AGD and are confident that everything will pan out in the end. If you call the frienships I've built and the great people I've met here a "Cult" then so be it. Oh and for good measure: :rolleyes:
:D

Amen to that!:cool:

[SirTim]

Here is the short explanation. AGDE has taken a job to run the National Paintball Europe distribution center. They will still distribute our products but making bodies is not high on the list. They are machining the last of the extrusions so there will only be one more batch of about 50 xmags. Some people on the list will not get them, sorry I dont know what to say.

I am sure this will hurt AGD's business in the short term. Why can't AGD take up other Xmag body design continue the Xmag production? We can name it Xmag '04 or something unique.



We will work slowly on a new concept that will eliminate the large battery and charger, incorporate the ULT trigger system and completely new electronics. We don't expect to introduce this marker until 2005 if it makes sense to do so.

On the other hand, I am really excited to see a completely new design electornic marker from AGD. I think my Emag will hold out for at least another year.

[crankydan]

If AGD puts the same quality and pride in their next marker line, then you know it is going to dominate. Good luck Mr. Kay in your endeavors and crack the whip on those R&D folks.

crankydan

[Rope a Dope]

Originally posted by fallout11
2) The E-mag is an old design, as far as electronic guns go. As Tom says, 4 years old, and quite ready for revision. Who buys a 1999 Intimidator anymore? Dated design, big and clunky.



Big and clunky? Thats why mags got ULE bodies. So it's a different design. The internals remain the same. Such as the Intimidator.. the ram and every other part are interchangable from a classic timmy and a new timmy, I should know, a buddy of mine replaced every part on his Classic timmy that he ended up with two guns when he was finished, the only hard part to buy is the body. The E-Mag and Timmy are both capped at 20bps and have shot buffering. And what gun still dominates the tournament scene?

I am pretty sure this gun will remain just about the same but take care of all the gripes people nit pick about, mainly battery pack and lack of .45 frame.

Everyone is so happy that there will be a new gun from AGD, but am I the only one that read "MAYBE"?!?! Court dates and filing paperwork along with hearings will take more than 1 year, and SP hasn't even set their sights on AGD yet, they're gonna battle AKA first. So 1 year from now the SP issue will still be up in the air and from the sound of it Tom won't make a new electro until it is all over.

[shartley]

SP and the climate it produced has stifled innovation? Hogwash I say.

Don’t confuse modifications or improvements of existing technology as “innovation”.

Don’t confuse pretty bodies and new milling as “innovation”.

Take a look what innovation means…

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=innovation

I think what most folks confuse with “innovation” is “alteration”, “modification”, or “improvement”. Just because a company tags something as innovative or as the latest innovation does not mean that is what it is. More times than not, everyone laughs and says “Hey, that is just like last year’s XYZ but smaller.” or similar comments.

Or when a company makes an improvement they tag is as an innovation.

Seriously, when was the last time we saw something truly innovative in the paintball industry? I think NOW you will start to see some innovations.

Does that mean what has been being sold in the paintball industry was not good? Heck no. But tweaks, cosmetic changes, design alterations, and even improvements hardly qualify as innovations in my book. There have been some original or innovative attempts though, but we tend to have seen them in the smaller brand new companies, not the already established ones…. which includes AGD. It is the hungry ones that have nothing, yet at the same time EVERYTHING, to lose that we see the real work being done IMHO.

I think AGD has just entered back into this category. True innovations come when you have to fight for your survival, not from when you are simply looking for a few extra bucks. Somehow I now hear AGD’s new theme song as being “Eye of the tiger” (or Lion if you will ;) ).

And I see this as not stopping with AGD. I predict that we will see this happening all over the place and with many companies.

I don’t think SP has caused the ruin of the paintball industry, I think they have jumpstarted it again. And what a wonderful time to do so, when the sport’s popularity can truly benefit companies willing to put it on the line.

Does that mean I agree with everything SP has done? Nope. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t see the benefit that such a cartelist can have on an industry.

So again, folks can think what they want about “stifling innovation”, but I don’t see it that way… not at all. I see it completely differently.

[Koosh]

Since when are they discontinuing classic valves? I think it would be a REALLY bad idea to do that... but hey, what do I know...

[Brophog]

What would you propose then?

As I and others have discussed in other threads, there isn't a lot of room in this sport for TRUE innovation. Constant Air, Force Feed Technology, and Electronics were true innovations.

Those all led principally to one thing; a speed increase. I have very successfully argued that we're at a stage, where mathematically, more speed is not necessary. We can get faster, but it will not gain us anything.

The place for TRUE innovation lies within the projectile at this point. However, we've also argued that without some serious work, both in design, and consequently in function afterwards, we're not going to improve much on the projectile we now shoot.

Sure, we can make it more aerodynamic, increasing breaking power, range, and accuracy. That will assuredly come with much slower feed rates. Now we're back to a pump style, accuracy and movement oriented game, where we shoot less paint, but the paint cost more. Is this what the average player wants? The average paint company?

I will say there is room for modification to all facets of equipment, from marker, to air, safety equipment, to the projectile. I don't believe there is room for TRUE innovation though. Atleast not the kind that will irrevocably change the way the sport is played like the 3 above mentioned have done.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Brophog
What would you propose then?

As I and others have discussed in other threads, there isn't a lot of room in this sport for TRUE innovation. Constant Air, Force Feed Technology, and Electronics were true innovations.

Those all led principally to one thing; a speed increase. I have very successfully argued that we're at a stage, where mathematically, more speed is not necessary. We can get faster, but it will not gain us anything.

The place for TRUE innovation lies within the projectile at this point. However, we've also argued that without some serious work, both in design, and consequently in function afterwards, we're not going to improve much on the projectile we now shoot.

Sure, we can make it more aerodynamic, increasing breaking power, range, and accuracy. That will assuredly come with much slower feed rates. Now we're back to a pump style, accuracy and movement oriented game, where we shoot less paint, but the paint cost more. Is this what the average player wants? The average paint company?

I will say there is room for modification to all facets of equipment, from marker, to air, safety equipment, to the projectile. I don't believe there is room for TRUE innovation though. Atleast not the kind that will irrevocably change the way the sport is played like the 3 above mentioned have done.
Ahhh you hit some very important points.

And I agree that improvements are very important and there is truly room for them, and indeed a NEED for them.

But with that said, if indeed we have reached the “end all” for true “innovation” how would SP and the atmosphere they created be able to stifle something that does not exist or can not happen? Folks can’t have it both ways.

I believe that there CAN be innovation as well as improvement. And I don’t think that having to pay licensing fees to other companies (rightfully by personal opinion or not) is as bad as many think it is. Every other industry not only survives doing this, but flourishes. And it allows improvements to be made as well as true innovations. Of course some folks may think no innovations are left to be made, that is what has been said by some about every step of the way and just before someone comes up with a truly new innovative idea.

[logamus]

i am suprised the xmag lasted as long as it did. the phasing out of the emag is not all that shocking either. it is in need of a face lift. while part of me hates to see the emag go, i am really excited to think about whats on the horizon.

[Wes Janson]

Am I the only one who wonders why not produce the X-mag without body, possibly in conjunction with the Deadlywind or similar aftermarket bodies?

And how is it that AGDE is a seperate company with seperate ownership of the xmag body (Why can it not be transferred over/who is preventing it?)? It seems like this could've been worked around had Tom wanted to, but that this was a strategic move to ends we cannot see at this time. Could this be a move away from the speedball and tournament scene, in order to focus on scenario players?

[WenULiVeUdiE]

After reading some of the last posts I realized something. Whoever said SP may have jumpstarted the industry is correct. Companies need new products to get around these lawsuits. And by doing that we get innovations. If someone hadnt patented the originally revvi than somone probably wouldnt have come out with the better faster reloader. If something dies out, some thing new will grow. Look at the surrounding enviroment. You kill off a ton of spiders(not the gun), many more insects come and survive. And that new group of insects is a bad thing. So adopt this to the paintball world and you get a standard shocker or imp, but then you have a bunch of newer better innovations. You stop standard progress, you get newer faster better progress that is good for the industry as a whole.


Andrew

[Brophog]

I agree that while SP and companies are essentially holding all the cards, they're not by any means creating a monopoly here. I think the whole situation has been dramatized a great deal, as is the case these days.

Moreover, I think Tom's point isn't so much that SP has locked the system up, but rather, why rush to get a product out until you know how the legal issues will resolve. I think we're going to continue to see the game played competitively with electronic markers, and as such, I see a multitude of designs and companies competing for our business.

We have to respect the fact though, that we're still in the infancy of this entire patent issue. Of all the electronic markers used competitively, most of them haven't been approached by SP in regards to this patent. We're still a few years away from anyone knowing exactly what is and is not covered under whomevers patents, and consequently who will wind up paying royalties to whom.

I do think we're starting to get to that breaking point once again where either something changes, or companies lose the ability to separate themselves. It happened in the height of the pump days, and then semi autos came on the scene and jump started things. It happened in the height of the Mag/Cocker wars, and then electronics were introduced.

I'd be naive to say that it is impossible for something else to occur that would change the sport again, but in all honesty, I don't see that big of a change occuring again. We're not the only industry at this point. In the sports world, we can look at the various facets of motocross. They haven't seen a real technology change in quite some time, yet they are able to keep things "alive" by introducing new ways to use their existing equipment. They've gone beyond racing and expanded that into not only new, imaginitive forms of racing, but also into doing tricks and stunts. By doing so, they segmented their sport into several facets, allowing companies to stay active in the various facets.

We on the other hand, have been moving the other way. We're still technology driven, and as such, are constantly funneling our sport into narrower field types and formats. This will inevitably create a structure where companies are all vying for the same consumer base, and when technology and style avenues are exhausted, we'll undoubtedly see companies begin to merge or go bankrupt.

Furthering this, we, at this point, do not contain enough revenue streams to appropriately support our expenditures. All sports rely heavily on outside interests to fund their respective sport. Generally, this comes in promotional rights, gate fees, and media contracts. We're very, very limited at this point in time when it comes to revenue avenues. At this point, by and large, we're supported only by the companies making the products, within the industry itself. When you combine this, with the technology struggles noted earlier, you create further revenue problems, for both large and small companies.

We've survived so far due to the fact we are unique in the fact we use a consumable product. For several years now, the sport has been driven principally through this one revenue channel. However, as more and more revenue channels close up, we will be more and more dependent on this consumable, and prices will need to be adjusted.

Its a very fine line. If paint prices need to be adjusted in order to further support other segments of the sport, then it'll lead to a revolution of sorts in how we play and style and function of the sport will change.

[Brophog]

Originally posted by WenULiVeUdiE
After reading some of the last posts I realized something. Whoever said SP may have jumpstarted the industry is correct. Companies need new products to get around these lawsuits. And by doing that we get innovations. If someone hadnt patented the originally revvi than somone probably wouldnt have come out with the better faster reloader. If something dies out, some thing new will grow. Look at the surrounding enviroment. You kill off a ton of spiders(not the gun), many more insects come and survive. And that new group of insects is a bad thing. So adopt this to the paintball world and you get a standard shocker or imp, but then you have a bunch of newer better innovations. You stop standard progress, you get newer faster better progress that is good for the industry as a whole.
Andrew

This is what we talked about in another thread. It is a question of need.

We got to the point our stick feeds were 3 feet long. So, we invented the hopper. But then, we noticed that the hopper didn't feed correctly, so we invented the agitated hopper. Then, we noticed that due to HPA and electronics, that we could shoot faster than the agitated hopper could feed, so we invented force feed technology.

Now, in order to innovate, you must NEED something. Throughout paintball, we've seen this not only with hoppers, but with air sources, and cocking systems. 12 grams didn't last long enough; constant air in the form of CO2. CO2 froze up; HPA. Pumps didn't shoot fast enough; autotriggers. Autotriggers made the pumps inaccurage; semi autos. Semi Autos were too slow due to trigger weight; electronic markers.

The question is, once again, what do you absolutely NEED. Not little modifications, but a real innovation.

[shartley]

Brophog –
Good posts. But also keep in mind that the auto industry has seen many innovations over the years that didn’t come from simple “need”, but “want”, and improving parts to the point that they are at their limits but still wanting MORE…. So you have to innovate. And we now see cars being designed to drive themselves, fly by wire systems, and more.

So while I agree with much of what you say in both posts above, and you do have great points, I have to disagree that innovation simply comes from a need. Think about it, the hopper innovations didn’t come from a “need” to feed faster, but a WANT to. ;) Which in fact goes against all of the points you made. Those changes were not out of need at all.

Sure they needed to be made IF the wants were to be met. But the reason for the change was not “need” but indeed simply a WANT. :)

[Vendetta]

We only really NEED food, water and shelter. We WANT everything else in life;)

[Brophog]

Exactly. I think that's just semantics there. Whether you want to call it "want" or "need" its still the point that we made hoppers feed faster because there was a general consensus that speed could be improved and that hopper technology was a culprit.

We're now at the stage though that, regardless of how you choose to say it, more and more people are agreeing that further speed (20+ bps..) is neither needed nor in some cases wanted.

With every threshold, it becomes more and more of a burden to maintain that level. You go from hoppers, to ACE systems, to circuit board buffers, all in the name of cranking out a few more balls. When those few balls don't result in further eliminations and increased success, then they become a burden.

I'm not intending to make this a speed debate, but illustrating the point that techonology thresholds can be met. We're at the point now, where technology isn't separating teams on the podium, but their own abilities and decisions. If marker X played that big of a factor in a team's success, wouldn't it seem logical that they wouldn't be so inclined to jump ship when a new sponsorship came up. Its a bit of an overexaggeration, but markers at the highest levels have become in essence, what shoes are to NBA players. It doesn't matter what shoe you wear, it matters who pays you the most to wear that shoe.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Vendetta
We only really NEED food, water and shelter. We WANT everything else in life;)

Too true.:D

But what innovation is needed in Paintball? Football, Hockey, Baseball, and most other established sports have been pretty stable for years apart from improvements in safety equipment.

Why does the technology need to innovate? From an industry perspective, they'd love for markers to throw even more paint I suppose. But from a players perspective we've outpricing much of the market when you look at paint consumption.

It's probably time for the industry and sport to mature. THere are only so many ways to get a paintball out of the end of a barrel at 300fps.

[phantomhitman]

i am not arguing anything, just giving some advice.

since coming over to ao i have fallen for mags. i learned the simplicity, "teching" them, upgrades, general info, but most importantly of all the support. I posted on 3 different forums before coming here for help. people stepped right up and helped me with my problems no mater how "noob" they were. I still ask for opinions on my upgrades because i know i will get varried as well as very helpful info. this will not make me buy another agd product, but would definatly influence me towards them. i would like to wish agd the best on their new marker as well as their business.

[nuclear zombie]

Originally posted by AGD


We will work slowly on a new concept that will eliminate the large battery and charger, incorporate the ULT trigger system and completely new electronics. We don't expect to introduce this marker until 2005 if it makes sense to do so.


AGD

I am excited ! I'm going to start saving right now ! WOOT !

Thank you TOM KAYE!

[wimag]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
wow...I didn't see this coming *gasp*...yeah...as if...you people should have seen this coming a mile away...but you were too busy staring at your little X-Mag's through rose colored goggles..


-dB

Werent you once the self proclaimed keeper or stalker of the kitty X-mag?
Anxiety getting to you lately or are you always went too far with that word. Warning - cphilip?

[FSU_Paintball]

Perhaps I am out of line here... but if I were on the waiting list for an X-mag for over 9 months, and I heard that you were just going to not make any more... I would be inclined to say that AGD is giving the customer "the shaft." I would go so far as to say that unless SP had threatened to sue unless you IMMEDIATELY stopped making the X-mag, I would say that you were being ignorant of your customers' needs, and doing a great disservice to the excellent reputation of your company.

Most of all, if I had been waiting for an X-mag for 9 months and heard that I would not be getting one simply because you don't want to make them any more, I would be very, very pissed.

Am I out of line?

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by shartley
Not everything that happens in the world is caused by SP… contrary to popular belief. So this may or may not be an SP issue. But we DO like to pretend it is...

[Athius]

Originally posted by Vendetta


2005 is next year.

I know but ill wait a litle longer till all the bugs and stuff of the new gun get fixed and then ill buy it if it is perfect since the begginin ill get one.

[GT]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
it still doesn't change the fact that people outside of the Cult of AO have been taking side bets on how long AGD was going to last for years now...

DB you need a brutal *** beating! Not only do you have zero idea of what you are talking about consider for a moment your hateful tone on this board. If I was a mod here I would have bounced you eons ago.....

AGD will be in this biz as long as IT wants. BTW who is taking side bets? Morons on other message boards that post more than they play?

I am sorry but in any game the pawn never makes the smartest move, those are reserved for the king and queen.

When you begin to relize purpose you may then understand the meaning.......

[Rope a Dope]

Originally posted by wimag


Werent you once the self proclaimed keeper or stalker of the kitty X-mag?
Anxiety getting to you lately or are you always a dick?

http://home.pacbell.net/zoraks/superslam.jpg

[hwayhzrd]

This situation is nauseating ...
The X-Mag has been my dream gun for some time now, and now that hope is gone.
I hate Smart Parts, and will never spend a dime on anything connected with their backstabbing company.
When will the rest of the industry drop a set an combat this threat?
They are marching through paintball like Hitler through Poland ...
Mr. Kaye, PLEASE tell me that there is an alternative that Smart Parts can't destroy?

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by SirTim
If it's true, I say we boycott everything by SP. OH MY GOD, DROP THAT! A few people from internet forums(even a few hundred) can't do jack shiznit. Face it, IF SP sues AGD, it's over. Yall may not like it, but face it. If companies were intelligent(like ICD, DYE, and NPS did), they would sign out of court to give whatever the percentage is to SP to continue making electro markers. Yall may not like it, but face it, the patent was granted so now deal with the FACT that, by the letter of the law, SP invented the electronically fired pb gun(wether they really did or not is a moot point, you don't have to like it, just face it).
And if you plan on not buying anything SP, you now have to include B2K/BKO's, Matrices, and Intimidators, because those companies were smart enough not to go to court and signed a deal so they can continue production. Since they signed, technically, they are part SP markers, so even if you quit buying Shockers and Impulses, SP still gets money from every Intimidator, Matrix, or ICD electro sold! You lose!
AKA should settle out of court, so should AGD if the time comes that SP files suit against good ole Tommy. He's a smart guy, he should know when to fight, and when not to.

[Angellracer]

http://www.cafeshops.com/boycottsp

[painball]

:rolleyes: As warped1 said, if and when SP files against AGD, there is really nothing that can be done except to settle outside of court. Of course there is really nothing we can do about it. Boycotting won't do a damn thing. Think about it, the internet forum paintball population isn't even half of all the ballers in the world. I doubt even half have heard of the patent yet. Face it. SP will win either way. :(

[hwayhzrd]

The sad part is that they have won without seemingly ever even being challenged.

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by hwayhzrd
The sad part is that they have won without seemingly ever even being challenged. Hey, that's our justice system. You either love it or hate it! It is unfortunate for the small guys.
But, with TK's ULE Trigger kit, electros really aren't needed as much. Besides, who needs 1000000BPS? If you can't hit your target within 5 balls, try some other activity. Like knitting..............

[cockermongol]

Three years from now, when Smart Parts has fought the majority of their battles, probably then the average paintballer will START to figure out what's going on, but by then it will be too late.

As for the whole "starting innovation" thing. I hate to break it to you, but electronics were God's gift to paintball. Nothing will ever be faster, electronics are better than anything else. Sure, AGD will probably come out with an awesome mech gun. No doubt, it will probably be the fastest one ever made. But nevertheless, it will still be mech and therefore it will never be able to go as fast (electrical impulses seem to have the edge in the speed category).

This attack on paintball will most definately spark innovation, but sometimes this so-called "innovation", though new and original, may still be a step down from what once was. What I consider a step down is lowered speed. What may come of this is a whole new view of paintball. If electros are to fall, who is to say it isn't for the better? It's all perspective. You'll have the majority of paintballers shooting an average of 13-15 BPS with AGD's new mech gun (whatever the decide to call it), and it may return the game to what it once was. It could promote movement, better shot taking, ect.

I guess the bottom line is paintball will not die from these changes. It will only change, nothing more. It is a great trajedy on many levels that Smart Parts did what they did, but maybe, in some ways, they only introduced control to the market. Now new companies will have to be adventurous, instead of keeping with the tried-and-true electro. You will start seeing "innovation" as the various companies scramble to make faster and faster mech guns. We are, in my belief, at the beginning of a transition. What we are seeing AGD do is what many companies will do soon. AGD has the foresight to know when it's time to pull the plug, so to speak. This time of transition will be a test for whose companies can adapt the quickest to the sudden changes that will be imposed. Some will fight, some will give in, and some will redesign. Those who fight may take a loss so bad that they can no longer keep their company afloat, some may give in but pay fees so high (that, of course, is passed down to the consumer) that no one will buy their products at the high costs, and still others may innovate and wither away as more and more people give in to Smart Part's pro-team driven electro-craze campaign that will most definately errupt when they begin to crush the competition. It seems the only companies who will make it through these times of hardship either have really good lawyers or really good designers, or both.

[11_Mile_TMaster]

Originally posted by FSU_Paintball
Perhaps I am out of line here... but if I were on the waiting list for an X-mag for over 9 months, and I heard that you were just going to not make any more... I would be inclined to say that AGD is giving the customer "the shaft." I would go so far as to say that unless SP had threatened to sue unless you IMMEDIATELY stopped making the X-mag, I would say that you were being ignorant of your customers' needs, and doing a great disservice to the excellent reputation of your company.

Most of all, if I had been waiting for an X-mag for 9 months and heard that I would not be getting one simply because you don't want to make them any more, I would be very, very pissed.

Am I out of line?

Unfortunately, It's a crappy Situation. One that has had Tom all 'iffy' about X-Mags to begin with. The bodies are made and the design is owned by AGD Europe, which is a sepereate corporate entity. A Seprate entity that no longer is going to make the bodies. It will be likely too expensive, and likely more trouble than it's worth to buy the design, Part it out, etc etc.

Now, I am about to open up the can of worms; Isn't AGDE Where they get the 4.5k Reg seats from? :) What's gonna happen with those?

[cockermongol]

Am I the only person here that thinks it is STUPID that AGDE even EXISTS! From my chair I think they are doing much more harm than good.

[11_Mile_TMaster]

And, for that matter, some of my thoughts:

250 E-Mags sounds like it's actually no number to sneeze at. Anyone with a recent E-Mag care to give a Serial number, so we have an idea how many exist?

The reason I bring that point up, is that AGD Likely wants to try to be rid of whatever inventory they have if the courts side with SP. Not selling 20 e-mags to customers because you never had the parts is a lot better than having 20 e-mags sitting in your shop because you can't sell the parts.It's not making a profit versus taking a large loss. These arent it'sy bitsy parts. We're talking about (when we get down into the nitty gritty,) A 400-500$ or so difference between an e-mag and RT Pro that are configured similarly. I say the difference because of the fact that, yes, some parts are interchangeable. Namely Mainbodys/Valves, and to a lesser extent, the Rails.

But, in our example, Let's say that AGD orders another run of, say 100 e-mags, and those 20 people get them. SP wins their case, and AGD as a result has to stop selling E-Mags. that still leaves 80 E-mag grip frames, 80 Batteries, 80 Battery Grips, 80 batteries, 80 Circuit boards, 80 solenoids, you get the idea. 20*500= 40,000$. I don't care if you're A college student, a working man, or the owner of a small-to-mid size business, 40,000$ is a lot of money to ---- away because you're not allowed to sell something. That's the salary of a pretty good engineer for a year, give or take.

It's simple economics. AGD Doesn't have the backing that, say, Empire does to risk large productions of markers like that.


Originally posted by cockermongol
Am I the only person here that thinks it is STUPID that AGDE even EXISTS! From my chair I think they are doing much more harm than good.

AGDE Is a franchise business. Crap happens with franchise businesses. They do things very Differently sometimes. Oftentimes to the point where you'll hit yourself in the head and ask, "What the heck are these people smoking?"

[Rope a Dope]

Yes don't boycott Smart Parts because if something doesn't work automatically overnight then it is not worth it to keep trying until you reach your goal.

You're all acting like a bunch of French soldiers, just drop your mag and put your hands in the air and surrender to Smart Parts.

The Automags.org logo should have more yellow in it.

You limp wrists can go ahead and bend over and take it with no DOW 33, I'll at least put up a fight such as educating uninformed players about what SP is doing and encouraging others to not support SP as well as severing all deals at the paintball shop I work at with SP (which has already happened and strictly because of their BS lawsuit).

Hope your Shocker 03's work out of the box.

[WARPED1]

ICD signed the agreement in the middle of last year, and since, prices on BK0's have dropped.................
boy, those SP lawsuits sure hurt!

[cockermongol]

Originally posted by WARPED1
ICD signed the agreement in the middle of last year, and since, prices on BK0's have dropped.................
boy, those SP lawsuits sure hurt!
ICD, by keeping the prices the same, is most definately losing money to stay competitive. Less profits = less money for R&D = less innovation (the kind of innovation we'll need to beat SP).

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Originally posted by wimag


Werent you once the self proclaimed keeper or stalker of the kitty X-mag?
Anxiety getting to you lately or are you always a dick?

I'm not the stalked of anything...you all like to have your little cliques and your own little in jokes...I have my own..


Originally posted by gtrsi


DB you need a brutal *** beating! Not only do you have zero idea of what you are talking about consider for a moment your hateful tone on this board. If I was a mod here I would have bounced you eons ago.....

AGD will be in this biz as long as IT wants. BTW who is taking side bets? Morons on other message boards that post more than they play?

I am sorry but in any game the pawn never makes the smartest move, those are reserved for the king and queen.

When you begin to relize purpose you may then understand the meaning.......

I've been playing paintball since you were still peeing your pants so don't tell me you're the paintball equivalent of Peabody and Mr. Sherman all rolled into one.

As for who is taking sidebets...let's just say it's not a bunch of walk-on's shooting Spyders...just because I have conversations with people at other companies means I have to tell YOU the content of the talk..

And your little forture cookie sayings may work on high school girls but most people over the age of 18 don't need to watch Kung Fu to learn to say something cool to amaze everybody.

AGD was going to die eventually. No smart business men is going to support the failing portion of his business with the successful part. You change or you die. Pure and simple. You can not believe it all you want but when you're searching eBay one day because you can't find parts for your mag anymore because AGD's long gone just like Line SI, Paintball Inc and AirStar.

[Steelrat]

Well...it's time for me to have one of my world famous "I'm leaving" again sales...after lots of thought I've decided to take 6 months off of paintball...just got too much going on in my life and there are too many things I want to do with my life that I just don't have time for paintball

Good news! You don't have to care anymore! Go take your well deserved break, there will be plenty of time to revel in AGD's demise later.

[John Sosta, AGD Europe]

Guys,
I am posting this due to the barage of phone calls, and e-mails that we have received, as a result of this thread.
Let me say very clearly that we, that's AGDE have not said that we will not, or do not want to make anymore X-Mag bodies. If AGD wanted to continue to place orders, then would be happy to fulfill them. From the beginning of this project, we offered to allow AGD to produce the bodies under license, there in the U.S., so that they would have more control, on supply & numbers.
We have a huge investment in the product, and have no intentions of stopping production, even if AGD discontinues the X-Mag. We have 2 CNC machines that we use to C&C the bodies in house, and we have always fulfilled AGD's orders.
We also did a lot of work on the ACE, and have only recently re-designed both the warp & centerfeed modules, and we are still looking to make further improvements.
I think that AGD has made this decision due to a number of factors, one of which is the very high exchange rate against our british pound at the moment, which is making the bodies expensive. However, I must reiterate, that we would have no objections to AGD producing them in the U.S., which would eliminate this problem.
We are just as sorry as you are that the X-Mag is being discontinued, as we have worked so hard over the last few years to get it to this stage.
We only designed & made the body in the first place to try to bring the E-mag up to the same level as the Angels etc,
and give it the C&C looks that everyone else was producing.
The modular design was included to help promote the warp, so you could connect up to the warp module without lots of ugly hose.
To dispell rumours, yes we have signed up with NPS, but this will not affect AGDE nor would it affect the production of X-Mag bodies if you guys still wanted them.
I think that Tom will agree that this decision is based on many factors, but the biggest is the current legal situation going on in paintball.

AGD edit: I agree with John here, the biggest factor driving this decision was weather or not to spend the money restocking inventory on an old product.

[Gadget]

John, thanks for the post, hopefully that should clear up any anti-AGDE feeling on here. Plus it sounds as though we'll still be able to get the X-Mag in Europe?

Seems to me that AGD have taken the decision to move out of the E-marker business in order to avoid any litigation over the SP patents.....if they only make mech markers, no-one can sue them?

Banner

[wimag]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy

As for who is taking sidebets...let's just say it's not a bunch of walk-on's shooting Spyders...just because I have conversations with people at other companies means I have to tell YOU the content of the talk..


Yeah riiiiiiiiight. What makes you so special to have these intimate one on ones with other people at other companies. The receptionist and shipping person dont count either as your source.

Dude you are so full of crap. For someone who took such great pride in thread after thread of "hey my x order is in" to "hey my x is at ano" to "hey i talked to a tech and he said my gun is the third from the top in the pic and I dub thee the boner gun" You are really getting your rocks off on AGD's situation.
If; and I doubt it will happen, that AGD folds you can nyahhh, nyaahhh, nyahhh all you want. Until then shut your hole.

[shartley]

I just read AGDE’s response, and all I can say is WOW!

Not only do THEY list many valid reasons why Tom is not continuing the X-Mag, but then dump the MAJOR reason on something that has nothing to do with all the other valid reasons for discontinuing the production and availability of the item by AGD itself.

Tom also made AGDE’s position look MUCH different than even AGDE just did. Tom made it look like AGDE was not interested in fulfilling any more orders, when now AGDE clearly states the opposite.

What I see is “Let’s see what the easiest scapegoat can be for this decision.” And then placing it on SP.

Tom could very well continue the E/X-Mag but is CHOOSING not to, and for MANY reasons, not just one. And I don’t buy that the SP issue is the most important one, just that it is the most convenient one. That puts the blame on another company, vs dealing with all the other very valid reasons within AGD / AGDE themselves. I for one am VERY familiar with this type of blame game, and have felt it personally. No matter how many reasons lead to a decision that people don’t like, let’s find the ONE reason folks can hate the most and make that the reason folks focus on.

I think the failure of this product is multi-faceted. It involves timing, expense, internal decisions, as well as industry trends and pressures (which DO include SP, but are not ONLY SP). It is also clear that if Tom wanted to (and had the ability to) he could continue to make them in the US, avoiding many of the financial reasons listed by AGDE.

But that would involve either investing in actual equipment, or finding a suitable company here in the US to do the milling for him AND entering into a likening agreement with AGDE… The SAME think folks don’t want to do concerning SP, even if it allows for the product to still be available to the public, AND allows the company (AGD) to make money. And this would all cost LESS than his stated “new product development costs” (as was pointed out by other members).

You know what? This is all a game of passing the blame. And folks will believe what they want no matter what is posted, or what is logical. As has been stated to me time and again, people will always want/need a “bad guy”. Okay…. Hate SP for this. Go ahead.

[Top Secret]

Originally posted by cockermongol

ICD, by keeping the prices the same, is most definately losing money to stay competitive. Less profits = less money for R&D = less innovation (the kind of innovation we'll need to beat SP).

Actually ICD has a new gun in development called the Freestyle which is due out very shortly.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Top Secret


Actually ICD has a new gun in development called the Freestyle which is due out very shortly.
I will also expand on that…

The price of leasing equipment or space take away from R&D funding. And these prices often get raised.

Taxes take away from R&D funding. And those prices often get raised.

The price of utilities takes away from R&D funding. And these prices often get raised.

The price of material costs take away from R&D funding. And these prices often get raised.

The price of other various licensing fees (dealing with business, not products in general) must be paid which takes away from R&D funding. And these often get raised.

The price to process business orders and payments (witch includes computer systems and software, internet costs, merchant’s accounts, banking fees, and much more) take away from R&D funding. And these prices often get raised.

I could go on listing the things that take away from R&D funds, but I think we get the point. Any fees paid to SP or any other company in themselves is not the reason products can, or can not, be developed. There are a vast number of other expenses that take away FAR more funds than any one licensing fee.

In fact, I have seen MANY businesses fail because of any number of the above listed expenses over that of a product licensing fee(s). And the above listed STANDARD expenses for business tend to be the thing that keeps smaller businesses from coming out with new products more than the addition of a product licensing fee.

If the fee caused a company to fail, they had some other serious issues before that point. Kind of like the straw that broke the camels back… you CAN blame that one straw, but you would be ignoring all the other straws that came before it. And chances are, by reducing the size of those other straws, OR removing some of them all together, the addition of that “final straw” could very well have caused virtually no affect to the camel…. Thus his back would be fine. ;)

[manike]

Originally posted by cockermongol
Am I the only person here that thinks it is STUPID that AGDE even EXISTS! From my chair I think they are doing much more harm than good.

Yes, you are, and you don't know what you are talking about. Such an ignorant statement makes me very angry.

The amount that AGDE has done for the mag and AGD is insane, and much of their work goes by unsung or attributed to other parties.

So many products in the AGD range wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for John Sosta, Jackie Sosta and John Bonich.

[thei3ug]

I hate to add levity to the situation, but ahhh, didn't sosta start marketing the 8-hole mod for the non-aligned mags, that spurned a whole market of garbage knockoffs?

;)

I like AGDE. They's pimp.

[manike]

Back in the day when the holes didn't align through the reg halves doing that mod DID make a difference because you had a better chance of getting the holes to align with one of the 8.

Once AGD changed their manufacturing and made the holes align that mod did nothing but other people kept offering the mod...

[Gadget]

Yes he did - John + Marcus from the Predators designed the original 'Pro-Mag' 8 hole mod. Have still got my mag from 1993 (Promag 727) right here :)

Despite all subsequent evidence to the contrary my 'mag still seemed to work a lot better after getting that mod done :)

EDIT: Ah, so I wasn't just imagining things...thanks Manike :)

[jayloo]

All I can say is wow. This just seems so all of a sudden.

[mcveighr]

Whats the story on the E-Tac ones?

They going with the 250 E-mags?

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
AGD was going to die eventually.

Well so are you eventually! :p

Nothing lasts forever, but maybe AGD's "death" is being reported prematurely!;)

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy



AGD was going to die eventually. No smart business men is going to support the failing portion of his business with the successful part. You change or you die. Pure and simple. You can not believe it all you want but when you're searching eBay one day because you can't find parts for your mag anymore because AGD's long gone just like Line SI, Paintball Inc and AirStar. I agree, it's just taking them longer because they do come out with good stuff every now and then...........

[thei3ug]

Originally posted by manike
Back in the day when the holes didn't align through the reg halves doing that mod DID make a difference because you had a better chance of getting the holes to align with one of the 8.

Once AGD changed their manufacturing and made the holes align that mod did nothing but other people kept offering the mod...

Oh, so you're trying to kill my little mischief mood, eh? :) We'll see about that...

What's with all the highrise powerfeeds you brits seemed to love through the 90's, eh? yah, yah, we've all heard the sight down the top excuse before. Many many many times.

Besides, are you saying that the limited span of the promag mod to a small number of mags (I remember that, BTW), outweighed the social drawbacks of sucker reg bodies being sold by Diamond labs in "rub the anno off titanium?" Too often in this sport we don't look at things in the long term... ok I'm just talking out of my rear now.

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by John Sosta, AGD Europe
However, I must reiterate, that we would have no objections to AGD producing them in the U.S., which would eliminate this problem.
This should have been done on day 1 of the birth of the Xmag(AGD finding a place here to do it):rolleyes: ...........

Originally posted by John Sosta, AGD Europe
[BTo dispell rumours, yes we have signed up with NPS, but this will not affect AGDE nor would it affect the production of X-Mag bodies if you guys still wanted them.
I think that Tom will agree that this decision is based on many factors, but the biggest is the current legal situation going on in paintball.[/b] NPS has already signed with SP and can make electro markers, does this mean you can still make Xmags?

[gibby]

Originally posted by WARPED1
This should have been done on day 1 of the birth of the Xmag(AGD finding a place here to do it):rolleyes: ...........
Yup! But little do you know...it's being done already! Nicad is always hard at work in his dark, dank, basement...KARTA!!!

[Beemer]

I think DB and Warped must be brothers they both seem to know everything about nothing. But really you know less then you think you do and are smaller then a grain of sand in the beach of life

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by Beemer
I think DB and Warped must be brothers they both seem to know everything about nothing. But really you know less then you think you do and are smaller then a grain of sand in the beach of life I guess my 14 years in paintball and my long pb work resume mean nothing? In fact, I have an interview with a big name company on monday(I'm not allowed to say who with, yet........) Not just stores, but industry jobs too, I won't argue with closed minded idiots, so have fun talking to yourself.
And gibby, those Karta bodies are hot! Maybe AGDUSA should just "buy" the design and have those made for thier XC's! That would be nice.

[Beemer]

Originally posted by WARPED1
I guess my 14 years in paintball and my long pb work resume mean nothing? In fact, I have an interview with a big name company on monday(I'm not allowed to say who with, yet........) Not just stores, but industry jobs too, I won't argue with closed minded idiots, so have fun talking to yourself.

Ha Ha I just made a statement on how I see things. At least I can say I have NEVER resorted to name calling and if I ever do I dont think I would waste it on you

Your post is a good example of your maturity level.

In fact of all the posts of yours I have read I have yet to see any that contribute in a positive way.

Try converting your negative energy to positive energy you might have better luck on your interview.[good luck]

[jtoothman25]

Originally posted by shartley


The price of leasing equipment or space take away from R&D funding. And these prices often get raised.

Taxes take away from R&D funding. And those prices often get raised.

The price of utilities takes away from R&D funding. And these prices often get raised.

The price of material costs take away from R&D funding. And these prices often get raised.

The price of other various licensing fees (dealing with business, not products in general) must be paid which takes away from R&D funding. And these often get raised.


Sounds like you need that book by Lesko. 10000 ways to save on money from the govt, or whatever it is. The guy wearing the question mark jacket like the riddler. Then paintball will be free for TK.

[shartley]

Originally posted by jtoothman25
Sounds like you need that book by Lesko. 10000 ways to save on money from the govt, or whatever it is. The guy wearing the question mark jacket like the riddler. Then paintball will be free for TK.
LOL I don’t need that, and honestly HE needs everyone to “need” that book.

How do I know?

I OWN IT. :D

I went to the book store and looked it over real quick and didn’t see anything that would benefit me, but I purchased it anyways. I then took it home and read it from cover to cover.

He is correct, the money IS there. But to actually QUALIFY for the money you have to not only jump through flaming hoops of fire, but have to fit within certain categories, social status, actual LOCATION, and many other criteria that make it darn near impossible to qualify for anything at all.

Yes, Lesco has the answers. But they really only help HIM… because you buy his book.

But don’t get me wrong. When I listed those expenses, I was not “complaining”, only pointing out that business is not free. And there are standard costs for doing business (if you do it legally) that you can’t avoid and are actually more impact on most businesses than the one addition of “product licensing fees”. And if THAT is what sinks your boat, you didn’t have much of a boat to begin with.

[Angellracer]

Ok guys...just sent an email to AKA...I'm going to give 50% of the proceeds of anything I sell to them to fight Smart Parts.

http://www.cafeshops.com/boycottsp

I've been reading more about this whole patent thing and the more I read the more I think the paintball community should not only raise their voice collectively and boycott Smart Parts, but I also think Adam Gardners history with patent and licensing scams should be made known more publicly.

http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/07/davisb~1.htm

To all those who say why bother boycotting or that this issue is stale I say...that attitude is EXACTLY what's wrong with this country. The notion that just because Smart Parts is a big company with a lot of cash we should all just accept the inevitable is a cop out. It's that herd mentallity they are counting on to run over the paintball industry and emerge on the other side as a monopoly. This will stifle innovation, raise the price of the most popular guns, and grant them even more leverage to do things like change the barrel threads on every new gun they sell just so we all have to keep buying new barrels. The gloves are off...paintball is not a niche sport anymore...it's a cash cow and the war for market share is on.

Take note of AGDs recent decision to stop making e-Mags and to hold off marketing any new electric guns until the dust settles. How long before the already high cost of an eBlade or Worrblade goes up even further. I haven't upgraded my cocker yet because I don't have the money. I'm hoping that the price will drop over time...if the Gardners get their way it'll either go up or they'll be taken off the market all together.

My 2 cents.

[jtoothman25]

they should make a new AGD gun thats illegal, and call it the XXX-mag. I dont know how it could be illegal, maybe have pornstars pictures on it. And put them there without permission. I'd buy one. My emag used to say "PORNSTAR" when it booted up.

[shartley]

Some folks may have missed AGD's edit to AGDE's post. So for those who missed it.....

“AGD edit: I agree with John here, the biggest factor driving this decision was weather or not to spend the money restocking inventory on an old product.”

[Kaiser Bob]

Originally posted by SprayingMango


I will roll my eyes at you all I want, it makes me feel good to do so. Also, most of us knew this was going to happen anyway. It surely does not spell the end of AGD. The thing is, many of us on here believe in AGD and feel proud to own AGD Markers. A few of us have gone to many meets and done many things with the people who work there. So I know a lot of us feel some sort of connection to the company that goes deeper than just owning a product. I know I personally have many GREAT friendships that I cherrish just because of it. So when something like this happens, it effects some of us differently. You wouldnt know anything about this and can't relate, which is understandable and its a shame.

In a way I guess some of us didn't want to accept it. At the same time we are loyal to something that is much more than just a company that sells Paintball markers to the masses. Again you can't relate. Because to some of us AGD and AO are something far greater than what they seem to be on the surface. We will ride it out along with Tom and everyone at AGD and are confident that everything will pan out in the end. If you call the frienships I've built and the great people I've met here a "Cult" then so be it. Oh and for good measure: :rolleyes:




:D

Hear hear! AO&AGD = Friends and family for some people.

[Steelrat]

Something worries me here. I am hoping that AGD will be keeping a sufficient reservce of emag spare parts, and not just trying to sell everything they have. If I had an X, and something happened to the board, I would hope there would be a supply of spares.

Now that the X is on its way out, I realize even more how much I like the body, and the gun itself.

[AGD]

Yes we are planning for a continued supply of spares.

AGD

[Beemer]

Originally posted by Kaiser Bob


Hear hear! AO&AGD = Friends and family for some people.

I wonder what it is for DB and Warped

[shartley]

Originally posted by AGD
Yes we are planning for a continued supply of spares.

AGD
Good to hear, and I expected as much.

[GoatBoy]

Hrm, neato!





http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=937438#post937438



So if AGD designs this new gun, are they going to design a big dead weight that the big-battery-pack lovers can bolt onto the front of the guns? You know, for a grip... or distinctive recognition from 100' away?

[SpdElemts]

I just recently starting really reading into this smart parts crap. and it really pisses me off.... Smart parts is full of crap. Putting patents on any paintball gun that has a damn trigger....Thats like ford putting patents on tires or wheels......Sorry guys for being so late on this. i just had to let it out on something.AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! ****ERS

From today on no more smart parts **** is gonna be touched by me...

[FreakBaller12]

somebody in another thread(that got closed) said that they wouldn't be suprise if AGD got boughten out.

Well, if i were to be bought out by anybody. I'd get a joint parternship with AKA. AGD and AKA are both smaller companies and they both beleive in the same relative philosophy. Why not?

[Steelrat]

I sure home AGD is going to be around for a while, as I am preparing to make a rather large investment in their products.

[nuclear zombie]

I think it is funny how quick some people "jump ship " and panic when they hear that e-mag is no longer being built . Personally I am glad , I hope that TK can spend some more time in R&D and focus on making the next generation e-mag a force to be reckoned with. I think the best thing we can do as players is let TK know what we want realistically performance wise n the next generation marker.

[bunkermaster10]

Originally posted by toyotaboy12

. I'd get a joint parternship with AKA. AGD and AKA are both smaller companies and they both beleive in the same relative philosophy. Why not?


That would be awesome. I would love that.... Man Would I love that and it would help both companies out IMO.

:)

[GT]

I've been playing paintball since you were still peeing your pants so don't tell me you're the paintball equivalent of Peabody and Mr. Sherman all rolled into one.

Since when did age equal wisdom?


let’s just say it's not a bunch of walk-on's shooting Spyders

Since when did gun of choice equal wisdom?


And your little fortune cookie sayings may work on high school girls but most people over the age of 18 don't need to watch Kung Fu to learn to say something cool to amaze everybody.

Who am I here to impress?


Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy
AGD was going to die eventually.

You are correct! Everything will pass in time. BTW if you missed my post, which you did in your infinite wisdom, you COULD have read that AGD will decide when THEY are done, less a catastrophic incident.


Please DB,
Bring something to the table of conversation besides the typical BS you, and others, spit out on a daily basis. Why you remain on this board full of "drones" is beyond me. Do yourself a favor and leave or refrain from posting. If you haven’t figured it out yet AO is much bigger than one gun, one company, or any one man.

[luke]

I think this whole situation with SP and Toms decision to stop production on the E-Mag are very exciting times indeed. Perhaps in the short run things will be tough for many in the business, but, if you think about it, you will see it's actually good for the sport.

This situation will force a new level of innovation that we have yet to see. Working around someone else's patent may be a hassle, but I believe the sport will be better for it, as long as Tom stays in the business that is. ;)

[Temo Vryce]

It's amazing that a simiple decision like this one can have such a large affect on so many people. Tom you and your products have touched a lot of people in the paintball industry. A fair number of those people have been loyal users for many years, others are new to the AGD/AO family. No matter how long we have been here, we will still be here when the dust settles and you release the next generation of mag. It is always sad when a great product line must come to end, but what doesn't kill us can only make us stronger. We're here for you Tom. Some of might throw a tanturm or two (no finger pointing intented) but we'll always supporting members of the AGD/AO family.

[Creative Mayhem]

My take on this whole situation is this...

Tom and AGD has revolutionized the industry on MANY occations,

the creation if the first Automag,

first to use compressed air for paintball

RT technology

Magnetic triggers

Ultra light triggers

Warpfeed(in conjunction with PTP IIRC)


With all of these advances and innovations, what makes you think Tom/AGD doesn't have anything else up his sleeve. Some of you may jump ship cause of fear for loss of sales/support and go buy that timmy, trix, or god forbid shocker..:p I for one, will shoot my mags for as long as pantball is being played. I have owned my Minimag for 11-12yrs, and my Xmag for 8 months, barring electical malfuction or age on the xmag, I will shoot these for as long as is possible. WHY YOU ASK???? Because Quality Always Shoots Straight. :D The mag is the tank of the paintball community, while some close minded people may not like its look, and its "poor performance"(I use the term loosely) it is UNARGUABLY the best marker out there. All of today's current "top guns" will have fallen apart LONG before my mags will have. I am honored to own and play with mags for all of my paintball life, and I will continue to support AGD and Tom in whatever may come.

To finish off... I'd like to Quote Tunaman from SCAO2 -

"It's AGD, or nothing for me."

My sentiments EXACTLY Tuna.

[Wes Janson]

As a disclaimer, I must say that I know next to nothing of the legal details of this situation. However, I'd like to throw out a wild idea just to ponder over. Why can't AGD turn over all patents, blueprints, rights, etc to the X-Mag/E-Mag to AGDE? SP's lawsuits can do nothing against foreign corporations. At the very least, why not allow someone else to continue producing them for the rest of the world to use (and maybe a few to sneak through to the US via eBay)?

[Smitty2k1]

Good luck to AGD and AGDE in their future development of a new electro, and hope smart parts doesnt affect any of it.

Untill then, Ill continue shooting my very awsome and very new mech mag.

As I have said for a long time in the Kingman Forums at PBN...


MECHS FOR LIFE!!!!!!

[joebob09]

i think all the comapnys that have been sued by sp should join together and make a gun that blows sp out of the water... the compactness of a mag and the lpr of a a excal that would be pimp

also agd should get a patent on their bodies of their guns... they made those first so agd should get a patent and then sue sp's ***.

btw if agd does make a newer version of an emag or x mag and it is a reasonablely cheap price id more than likely buy it to support agd

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

basically you are saying if you can afford to purchase it, you will support agd, but if you can't afford it, you are just going to walk by?

[Wrathchild]

Originally posted by Creative Mayhem
My take on this whole situation is this...

Tom and AGD has revolutionized the industry on MANY occations,

the creation if the first Automag,

first to use compressed air for paintball

RT technology

Magnetic triggers

Ultra light triggers

Warpfeed(in conjunction with PTP IIRC)


With all of these advances and innovations, what makes you think Tom/AGD doesn't have anything else up his sleeve. Some of you may jump ship cause of fear for loss of sales/support and go buy that timmy, trix, or god forbid shocker..:p I for one, will shoot my mags for as long as pantball is being played. I have owned my Minimag for 11-12yrs, and my Xmag for 8 months, barring electical malfuction or age on the xmag, I will shoot these for as long as is possible. WHY YOU ASK???? Because Quality Always Shoots Straight. :D The mag is the tank of the paintball community, while some close minded people may not like its look, and its "poor performance"(I use the term loosely) it is UNARGUABLY the best marker out there. All of today's current "top guns" will have fallen apart LONG before my mags will have. I am honored to own and play with mags for all of my paintball life, and I will continue to support AGD and Tom in whatever may come.

To finish off... I'd like to Quote Tunaman from SCAO2 -

"It's AGD, or nothing for me."

My sentiments EXACTLY Tuna.


CM, stay out of my head :D.

[luke]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Creative Mayhem


the creation if the first Automag,

first to use compressed air for paintball

RT technology

Magnetic triggers

Ultra light triggers

Warpfeed(in conjunction with PTP IIRC)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is alot more to add to this list... ;)

[Fred]

boy I leave on vacation for a week and all hell breaks loose...

Well, I have to say I'd be sorry to see the X (or E) go, (especially before I've had the means to buy one, damn tuition... only 4 more months of it too...), but like its been said, inevitable...

:(

Guess my Retro will have to suffice.

---Fred

[Recon by Fire]

So if there will be no more production of X-mags, can we get a final count as to how many X-mags were produced?

[dwab3000]

well this is my ideas here. I know sp is a patent monster trying to take over paintball...but think of it this way, smart parts is the schoolyard bully. We (all ppl with agd guns gear and or work for them) are being bullied. Even thought they have brute force (their stupid patents that are too vague and will never hold up in the supreme court)
we have the teachers and the principal.....and if the principal doesnt do a good job....complaints to the board of education....now think about this....THE SMART PARTS EYE AND ELECTRO PATENTS ARE USELESS. they are more of a joke to me. they will not hold up its too vbague covering up too much. i have had two ideas patented so far. one for special mods to the original mag *note these were the only tested ones* and one to my special custom spyder which i actually got the body frame custom made and no real spyder parts were used just unpatented ones.... i know the legal system. tom kaye has done things like this before. remember...its always happening...i also found out from many people that it is only a pause until a new one comes out....ules will be discontinued and the classic rt and the 68/mini stuff like this. now i play with a mag an angel 4, i just ordered a alias timmy *im on back order though but garenteed* nad my tricked out mag *my rec ball gun*. this problem will have no affect on me i already loove my mag *usually what i play with* my angel i already got a buyer for it and my timmy is gonna be my new tourney toy.....dont worry about it sit back relax turn up the music and dig the mag vibe you got me....im new to forum anywho. Hopefully this helps some. think about all i said...:eek: and dont be suprised when the sp suit is taken to other places....the supreme court will handle it right.

[young7786]

Originally posted by 11_Mile_TMaster
And, for that matter, some of my thoughts:

250 E-Mags sounds like it's actually no number to sneeze at. Anyone with a recent E-Mag care to give a Serial number, so we have an idea how many exist?



My Emag is a newer one and it has serial number EM01975

[darwin]

Originally posted by Recon by Fire
So if there will be no more production of X-mags, can we get a final count as to how many X-mags were produced?

agreed i am actually curious about this tk

[Hellaspaint]

We get an Xmag at the end of January with s/n 367 from AGDE.
I will have one more in a few days. I will post the s/n here.

[totalknockout]

this really sux cause ive been savin up 2 buy a xmag and this happens

[shades]

When can I been put on the List for the NEXT ONE. Really.
because I KNOW it WILL be a Quality product.
"A Mag OR Nothing"

[Scott Hudnall]

A very interesting thread, indeed.

I wonder about everybody blowing this out of proportion, however, since we don't have the whole story from AGD or TK.

I've been playing for 12 years now, am a former field owner (sold the field...it's still in operations and doing great), was a former 'mag owner who switched to a Shocker when the "brittle tournament paint" issue was so big back in the late 90's. Now, happily, I am back with an automag. I've spent this past winter building an automag up and am anxious to get it on the field.

Seriously, anyone who's been shooting electropneumatic guns for any length of time (and my first shocker was a PVI shocker.....then a SP shocker) would have to say that they are SICK SICK SICK of problems surrounding the solenoids, regulators, etc etc. What I love about the automag is that it's a tried, true, proven design, shoots as fast as you can pull the trigger, and is a rugged piece of machinery.

Mechanical marker vs. electro marker? Who cares????? really???? I no longer play tournaments, don't care to chase the hi-$$$$ guns around....I want to play fun and serious rec ball....the automag is the perfect gun for that.

On the other thread that started this whole discussion, TK apparently posted that the AGD lines would continue, but alluded to the X and E mags phasing out. Sounds reasonable. Let's see what happens.

My first impression was.....this is a hoax, right??? However, it looks to me like AGD is partnering with NPS....that's a pretty potent combination.

and for all the SP haters on this thread....take a lesson in history from patent law......remember Eli Whitney and the cotton gin? Or how about Bud Orr and the autococker?

And BTW.....AKA has stopped production of their markers. Honestly, they've been good at tweaking others products and calling them their own, but in reality they haven't make anything signficantly original. They are great at low pressure stuff, though.

[Scott Hudnall]

ahhhhh.....just the ramblings of an aged paintballer.....

love.
life.
paintball.

[dwab3000]

ahh...the listenings to an aged baller.....im all with ya there....on all points...the only thing elec on my gun is the hopper...i see ppl with shockers...having to work on em between games and if its not completed they go to their cocker for back up...they more than likely have a worrblade one it...now this worrblade actually kills your cocker...i have worrblades for the cockers of mine but i dont use em...elctro guns have too much hype about bps...well no one can shoot and no hopper can feed that fast...sure i just ordered a timmy only cause its our new team gun but i will still use my mag when i play semi pro or under

[fallout11]

Right on, Scott, write on....=)

[Scott Hudnall]

Thanks for the positive comments and encouraging words!

I've actually been in touch via email with Bill Mills of Warpig in the last day or so. He gave encouraging insight into AGD's plans. Also, he seemed to confirm that the electro's are being stopped due to the SP actions across the face of paintball's electro 'guns in general....wait till it all falls out....see where it lands. Nothing else is being stopped, tho. In the meantime, he said AGD would be continuing to work on the "mechanical" marker technology.

I must say.....that technology is impressive, TK!!!!

Anyone know of an automag owners group in Indiana?

[fallout11]

Ahh, exactly as I had predicted, then.

Excellent.

Thanks, Scott (from another aged baller).

[billmi]

Also, he seemed to confirm that the electro's are being stopped due to the SP actions across the face of paintball's electro 'guns in general.

To clarify....

The announcement from AGD mentioned that they didn't think it smart to invest in electro technology right now with legal issues going on.

I have never stated or implied that SP was in any way involved with this decision (nor do I think there are serious legal threats to the E-Mag line, to my knowledge no companies have been pursued over patent violations on solenoid sear tripping technology by anyone and AGD has/had some serious ammo in this area.)

In another thread on this topic, Tom Kaye stated:


We are NOT in any legal situation with Smart Parts.
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126903&perpage=40&pagenumber=2


Scot Hudnall sez...
and for all the SP haters on this thread....take a lesson in history from patent law......remember Eli Whitney and the cotton gin? Or how about Bud Orr and the autococker?


It's almost comical in the patent hate threads how the companies tauted as "good guys" for patenting things and then not enforcing patents, because it was "good for the sport" have used patents they own to either get licensing fees from other companies, or to keep competing products from the marketplace.

The short and simple of it, is that AGD is looking to it's future, and just because it's existing customers may be fans of it's electro line, doesn't mean that it's a profitable line to produce, or that they believe it will be profitable in the future.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[shartley]

Originally posted by billmi


To clarify....

The announcement from AGD mentioned that they didn't think it smart to invest in electro technology right now with legal issues going on.

I have never stated or implied that SP was in any way involved with this decision (nor do I think there are serious legal threats to the E-Mag line, to my knowledge no companies have been pursued over patent violations on solenoid sear tripping technology by anyone and AGD has/had some serious ammo in this area.)

In another thread on this topic, Tom Kaye stated:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126903&perpage=40&pagenumber=2



It's almost comical in the patent hate threads how the companies tauted as "good guys" for patenting things and then not enforcing patents, because it was "good for the sport" have used patents they own to either get licensing fees from other companies, or to keep competing products from the marketplace.

The short and simple of it, is that AGD is looking to it's future, and just because it's existing customers may be fans of it's electro line, doesn't mean that it's a profitable line to produce, or that they believe it will be profitable in the future.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills
Thank you for this post. It has been said by myself in this thread and others, but I have stopped even trying to explain it.

Hopefully folks will read this and see the light…. But somehow I feel it may still end up being lost in the storm.

[billmi]

Originally posted by shartley
But somehow I feel it may still end up being lost in the storm.

Yep. People in general like to have a "bad guy" to point and shout at and blame life's problems on. That's why Hitler was able to reduce Europe's population by over 12 million people.

[Scott Hudnall]

Hey Bill...

I seriously apologize if I unintentionally misrepresented anything you had related to me.....maybe I read a little more into it than I should have.

At any rate....I am a SP fan....and a AGD fan.....and a patent fan.....

and I am looking forward to AGD's future product releases. I've got the Intelliframe on my 'mag and plan on making the level10 bolt purchase soon.

Thanks again and thanks for the positive reply, Bill!!!

ps - I'm a WARPIG fan, too!!1

[Target Practice]

I don't think that we have to worry about AGD going out of business. I am waiting for 4 years to buy my first AGD product (RT_ULE Custom...if they get anymore in stock :confused: ). I will never buy an electro. With this new RT priced at $400, it is, IMHO, the most gun for your money on the market today. There are thousands of players out there who want markers they can work on themselves.

AGD has been around too long, and has built too large of a fan base, to let something like this screw it up. So what if AGD decided to make only mechs? They would be the best damn mechs on the market! With their Tac-One, they are reaching out to a demographic that, IMO, SP won't even try to tap: the Recball player. Lets face it, that is where paintball was born, and that is the game at its heart. The Automag will continue to kick *** and take names in this arena, while doing it in tourneys as well.

I don't care if SP comes out with a marker with a freakin' Keg-O-Rater on it...I would still go with the best mech in the game: The ***-Kickin', Name-Takin', Instant-Classic, Play-With-It-In-Heaven Automag.

God Bless Tom Kaye, AGD, and all of their supporters here at AO!

[Scott Hudnall]

:D :D :D :D :D :D

LMAO Target!!!!! That is well said!!!!

and that "Keg-O-Rater"......is that the heads up display unit for the impy??????

[MantisMag]

AMEN BROTHA! gettin all teary eyed here. ;):p

[Target Practice]

TESTIFY!!!:D