90 degree frames.... companies letting their business get too close to the bandsaw?

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

I was flipping through patents on haveblue, getting an idea of what I can and can't do for something big up and coming I got a-brewing and came across WDP's Spaceframe patent. The patent itself is somewhat vague, it basically shows an outline of the entire frame and says that's what it's patenting, no direct reference to 90 degrees. Now, a huge trend has come along, with folks such as Coolhand producing some high-quality, fancy gear for mags (I would have bought it had I not already had an intelliframe and was selling the mag when it was released, that thing is sweet), trixes, even some people looking at doing them for cockers, which I can only see leading to more people getting jacked in the face by backblocks, but anyways... isn't this a potential SP-style incident in the making, but with even more validity? SP had to edit their patent to start taking people down, WDP doesn't even technically have to do that if by the diagram they provide, they can say the 90 degree style is theirs. Or maybe I'm wrong.... what are your thoughts on this potentially risky situation, and for those who are making the frames, did you do any homework before as a type of contingency plan in case WDP tries something? Perhaps got the patent evaluated by a lawyer? I'd be interested in hearing everyone's take on this.

[coolcatpete]

WDP is not sp as simple as that.
Pete

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

WDP is a business in the business to BE a business, and money can corrupt even the most honest of men, it's all a matter of how much it takes to override the honesty. The risk is ALWAYS there. WDP is also a company that focuses on imagery over quality, though they are still upper end quality, and I would definitely say if they felt something they designed to give their angels exclusive imagery is being used by others, they'd defend it. AGD did it to Odyssey (and pleeeeease someone correct me if I got the lawsuit wrong, but I know AGD sued someone a while back for a legit infringement), and if someone used blowforward technology, I'd bet AGD would pursue action against it even if it wasn't being used just like it is in a mag but for the principle itself. I'm not saying WDP would manipulate patents, but perhaps they would feel they've had enough with so many copies on the one unique quality in an angel and decide to start collecting their dues. The ethics would be different, but the path and the result would be the same as the SP incident.

[CoolHand]

The patent that WDP holds for the space frame is a design patent (as opposed to a function or process patent), similar to a trademark, and only applies to the embodiment noted in the drawings. If it does not look the same, it does not infringe. One need only have a certain number of differences (IIRC, its like 15 points) in the look of the item to keep from infringing.

I would think it would be pretty hard to patent the idea of having a frame at a certain angle. That is so broad, its like patenting the color red, or the idea of having doors on a house.

And honestly, I would be flattering myself to think that WDP (or even SP) would worry themselves about what I am doing. As far as companies go, I am less than a speck of dust on the radar screen, which puts me in a unique position. On the one hand , I can take risks that AGD and other more well established companies cannot, but if one thing, just one thing goes south on me, I'm through.

I'm just tryin to ride the surfboard for as long as I can.

If I end up falling off, I can only hope I miss the coral. :D

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Ah, the man I was hoping to hear from.... first off, cool surfing analogy. Second, sounds like what I caught on with it being a "design" patent instead of a function patent is right, and I'm sure you did your homework on that one. And you did make a good point that you're a private-style business, holding strong but not one of the big dogs yet. To get big in an industry takes time and it's much harder these days as the market is saturated by now, AGD started at the perfect time when growth and new ground was abundant. It's about staying under the radar but I also see situations like what SP did with ICD, eating a small fish to get more strength to fight the big fish later. But the point of the direction of the grip could be a very good point.

By the way, you got a PM, I might have some use for one of your frames very soon...

[thecavemankevin]

I was wondering about this very same thing when i saw coolhands frames (which are still the only reason i would ever pick up a mech mag again).


Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
AGD did it to Odyssey (and pleeeeease someone correct me if I got the lawsuit wrong, but I know AGD sued someone a while back for a legit infringement), and if someone used blowforward technology, I'd bet AGD would pursue action against it even if it wasn't being used just like it is in a mag but for the principle itself.

i don't know if AGD ever sued anyone, but i can't imagine it was odyssey. They make loaders and nothing more. Furthermore, they have a good relationship with odyssey because they came to AGD to help with design problems and testing because of AGD's engineering expertice.

as for the blowforward thing. I would imagine AGD would only sue if it was virtually copying what AGD has already done. Afterall, AGD developed the use of nitro for paintball markers and could have patented that, yet they didn't.
Was it that they didn't think about it, or forgot about patenting it? AGD says it was for the good of the industry. That way the paintball industry could further develope with nitro power in the hands of other companies. So the likelyhood that they would sue seems a bit slim to me.

[Gabriel]

Not only that, but WDP is centered in England. Correct me if I'm wrong, but dont you have to be based in america to have an american patent?

[Gadget]

Originally posted by coolcatpete
WDP is not sp as simple as that.
Pete

WDP are just as ruthless in business as SP. If they could sue, they probably would.

IIRC it was Brass Eagle/Viewloader who sued Odyssey (infringing on their patent for eyes in hoppers). I've not heard of AGD ever litigating against another company - even when EPS produced a direct copy of the Automag in the mid 90s.

[LudavicoSoldier]

Originally posted by Gadget


IIRC it was Brass Eagle/Viewloader who sued Odyssey (infringing on their patent for eyes in hoppers). I've not heard of AGD ever litigating against another company - even when EPS produced a direct copy of the Automag in the mid 90s.

Correct. It was over the break beam eye.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

I could swear AGD had one or two quite a while back, not sure against who.... and I definitely seem to believe they were very legit grievances, not anything like the SP deal.

Well that's cool about the 90 degree concept being fair game, I like the idea of it and was thinking of using it, even if it's something like Coolhand's frame being utilized in what I am producing, and was definitely concerned of this potential roadblock, I'm glad to hear at least some technology is fair game.

[thei3ug]

"90 degree frames" go back to the late 80's.


Vertical frames have been used in other industries.

They are not new. their utility is not, and has not been patented.

[chizle97]

WDP has dignity. SP is like the spoiled kid who want everything for himself no matter how little it may be, just because someone els has somthing.

[FutureMagOwner]

wdp is also not going to recieve a smart parts case then turn around and start doing it to other people when they know how much it sucks over such a broad concept to begin with.

and jackal machine already makes vert frames for cocker that can take normal 45 grips (i was looking at maybe... MAYBE buying another cocker last night lol)

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by chizle97
WDP has dignity. SP is like the spoiled kid who want everything for himself no matter how little it may be, just because someone els has somthing. What an uneducated and shortsighted comment:rolleyes: ............

[FreakBaller12]

Not only that, but WDP is centered in England. Correct me if I'm wrong, but dont you have to be based in america to have an american patent?

that's what i thought too.
I am also pretty sure if you have a ptent on it you have to enforce it.

But who says the frame can't be 91 degrees ;)

[WARPED1]

Like, for example, AGD's Y grip frame. I don't think that'll infringe anybodies patent. TK is durn smart!

[hitech]

Originally posted by CoolHand
I would think it would be pretty hard to patent the idea of having a frame at a certain angle. That is so broad, its like patenting the color red, or the idea of having doors on a house.

I haven't read the patent in awhile, but I believe Tom does have a patent for the forward angled grip (i.e. Z-Grip). I believe that is why the space frame "stopped" at 90 degrees. ;)

I assume haveblue has it listed on his site so anyone can verify this if they want to.

[FutureMagOwner]

Originally posted by WARPED1
Like, for example, AGD's Y grip frame. I don't think that'll infringe anybodies patent. TK is durn smart!

well they did make the z-grip first so i suppose they could sue themselves :D ;)

[barberjohn]

CCM has made an 89* frame for cockers and it is on thier new J2 cockers. i think it looks pretty cool and very comfy. i guess this adds to the speculation that it has to be the exact same design as what is in the patent for WDP to sue anyone.

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by FutureMagOwner


well they did make the z-grip first so i suppose they could sue themselves :D ;) I think they did! But they lost!:eek: