AGD Defunct???

[mtbkrextrm]

I was just at the vegas "PAN AM" games and the guys at the CP trailer said AGD is not going tbe in business any longer is that so?? anyone else heard this also said it was due in part to smart parts hmmmmmm??

[Steelrat]

The reports of AGD's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

[WARPED1]

They'll be out of business fairly soon, no official word. But with no longer producing the E/X Mags.

[FreakBaller12]

AGD's majority of buisness is buitl around mechs. I am sure they will be out of buisness soon:rolleyes:

[Digits]

Originally posted by toyotaboy12
AGD's majority of buisness is buitl around mechs. I am sure they will be out of buisness soon:rolleyes:

haha no doubt

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by toyotaboy12
AGD's majority of buisness is buitl around mechs. I am sure they will be out of buisness soon:rolleyes: Unfortunatly, modern day players want electros, n00bs or "pros". So, if AGD doesn't produce an electro, they'll fade away. Tippmann even offers electro versions of thier guns. The companies that don't, fade awaY.
Like ACI.

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

Originally posted by WARPED1
Unfortunatly, modern day players want electros, n00bs or "pros". So, if AGD doesn't produce an electro, they'll fade away. Tippmann even offers electro versions of thier guns. The companies that don't, fade awaY.
Like ACI.

Well if coolhand gets his vert 90 e-frame there will be a very nice electronic mag on the market

[Steelrat]

What Im worried about is that, during the period AGD is not making an electro, former AGD owners will be forced to look elsewhere for new guns. And there are electos out there that are every bit as good as the e and X mags. When the time comes that AGD finally releases an electro, will the former owners all go running back to buy and AGD gun?

I think AGD is gaining momentum right now, and not selling an electro will probably erase any gains that have been made. Discontinuing that flatline isnt going to help, either.

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

i'm sure agd will surprise us...i hope

[JKR]

Originally posted by WARPED1
Unfortunatly, modern day players want electros, n00bs or "pros". So, if AGD doesn't produce an electro, they'll fade away. Tippmann even offers electro versions of thier guns. The companies that don't, fade awaY.
Like ACI.


Quiet now... don't let the Palmers or Mike Cassity at CCI or hear you talk like that, ya whipper snapper.

Mechanicals are certainly competitive in paintball, even at a tournament level. They may not be as easy to rip off a string as is an electro, but we can all agree that the better player will always prevail with a mechanical over a lesser player with an electro.

JKR

[Beemer]

Well once the C.P.S.C. starts getting involved all electros might be in trouble

[MrWallen]

Ever since I started becoming interested in Paintball (4 years ago) I've been hearing that AGD is going out of business.

In fact, I almost didn't get a mag when some guy told me I wouldn't be able to get any support for it because of this. About 5 mins online told me 2 things: AGD wasn't going out of business, and if they WERE, I wouldn't NEED support because these markers ROCK!

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by WARPED1
They'll be out of business fairly soon, no official word. But with no longer producing the E/X Mags.

Thats what they said 4 years ago... AGD is still going strong...

What some don't understand is AGD is a fairly low risk entity. Thier ability to stay in business weighs less on the ability to sell guns. They are diversified into other industries and outsource most of thier parts. Additionally they dont accrue debt from sponsoring every pro team.

Low overhead means you can afford to sell less.

Adding more risk to the situation by continuing to produce an electro that could be violating a patent is not smart business, especially when the business is nowhere near being in dire straights.

Unlike smart parts which will go chaper 11 if they don't keep thier sales up. They have contracts to fulfil and tons more overhead.

Moreover I dont think Tom likes what this industry has become. It certainly is a diffrent atmosphere than when he started AGD. The original spirit of the game is gone... Its all about big business, and pro teams now.

Everybody wants paintball to be big and expand... what nobody expected was the inevitable... commercialization. Just like Baseball, Football, and Golf. Where almost every athlete has nike gear...

AGD will remain albeit downsized if Tom wants it to remain... They have the staying power no matter what happens...

In the big sports world they will be with the likes of people who make high class high quality specialized sporting equipment.

For players who want the best of the best and don't settle for less.

[Butterfingers]

We also seem to forget AGD makes a very competitive Compressed air system...

Thats all Air America Does and nobody seems to speculate the ending of thier business.

If tom wants to play hardball he can sue SP for patent infringement on compressed air :)

[Skoad]

idiots.

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

In the case of Palmer though I seriously doubt 20% of his income actually comes from sale of markers, I would guess Cocker parts and the Stabalizer amount for 80%...

Az

[Steelrat]

I think the flatline is being discontinued.

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by Steelrat
I think the flatline is being discontinued.

thats new...

I know the 3000's were discontinued for a while Im not usre about the 4500's

[Steelrat]

When Tom went to AO Cal he said they might be discontinued. I just got a PM from a vendor who WOULD know, and that person stated they were discontinued.

[AGD]

Guys, I have made it clear to many people around here we are completely revamping our product line. The concept is "out with the old"

That means all the stainless parts are going as I have said before. The Flatline has been on low production for a long time. We only kept it around because it had interchangable parts with the military gun. It will be fased out too.

We are trying to ONE, get rid of the Mag name and connotations and TWO, become more focused on fewer products.

For the near future we will be making:
Tac-ones
RTpros
Warp Feeds
and lots of accesories.

Everything else is going.

AGD

[darwin]

ill still shoot at X and be proud of it. but i doubt i highyl

[zacbot]

what kind of accesories, accesories for the 68 classic, or just for the rtpro, i am concerned because i just purchased a 68 classic and i am hoping to upgrade the valve system and possibly get a lvl 10

[Mossman]

Originally posted by zacbot
what kind of accesories, accesories for the 68 classic, or just for the rtpro, i am concerned because i just purchased a 68 classic and i am hoping to upgrade the valve system and possibly get a lvl 10

Don't worry, LX will be around. The RTP valve is the only upgrade for the classic valve, it's called the Xvalve and it'll be around (both the RTP and the Tac one use it).

Don't sweat it, all the parts are still available to make your mag as pimp as mine, and my mags's pretty pimp :)

[breg]

I just want to point out that Tom said "For the near future." So, let's just be patient and see what comes out before we act like old ladies at a sewing circle.

But, I do have a question, will they still provide tech support the older designs?

[AGD]

Thats the great part about the AGD line, STUFF INTERCHANGES so no worry about not having accesories. Yes we have always done tech support for old stuff.

AGD

[Lohman446]

Here is what saddens me - I have seen TK state, if I was making a gun for me it would do this

If I was making a gun for you, it would look pretty...


If we take option 2, AGD is not what it was. AGD has always led by building ahead of the industry, not behind it. Option 2 will tell me that Tom is sick of what the industry has become and looking for a buyout, not that I blame him, but it will be a loss. At that point I will seriously look at markers to see what goes in my bag next year.

If we take option 1, I beleive we have turned a corner in AGD - I will be sorry to see the e-mag fading, I will keep mine as it will be as great as it ever was, but I will aslo put this new thing in my marker bag beside it.

[Wes Janson]

We are trying to ONE, get rid of the Mag name and connotations and TWO, become more focused on fewer products.

Just to reassure me here...you don't intend to drop the name "automag", just change the public image. Right? Or is there serious intent to move away from the 'mag name/brand/style?

[painball]

A step in the right direction. :) The industry is really collapsing right now.

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

:(

[AGD]

There are a lot of people (not on this forum) who think a Mag is an old stainless gun. No matter what we do they will always believe that. If they hear "Tac-one" they have to find out what it is before they diss it. Make sense?

I say a lot of things on this forum. After all it's where I come to test the pulse of the market. On occasion I try to incite a debate by taking a stab at something. Remember the Crown Point Barrel thread? Watching the ensuing argument helps me get a handle on how you feel. One of the big things is the proportion of looks to technology, I still don't have a reasonable assesment of that.

AGD

[Butterfingers]

But Tom there is a simple answer to that we want BOTH looks and technology :D

In all sereousness it the people will prefer what you hype... If you advertise technology people will buy your technology...

If you advertise looks people will buy looks.

Some companies even get away with marketing crap... and people will continue buying crap ;)

If agressive marketing is not an option you have to work expotentally harder to develop a product that will create so much chaos and rukus and hype , that is so far ahead of the competition that it will be its own spectacle.

A new innovation just like compressed air and electronics.

The new question is... how do we go beyond the realm of electronics then we live in a mouse click society?

Perhaps the solution is not in a better gun, we have reached the pinnacle of effective firepower...

We must pose the question what is the only thing that has not changed since the game's inception...

As you walk down the "long corridors" of the AGD factory at the end you will find "motivation" and the answer is sure to make an "impression"

You must "project" your thoughts to make sure your new innovation dosent hit the "ceiling." before it reaches its final destination.

[tg ur 1t]

Tom... first off, what am I to do?
do I leave the AGD Mag market because I want an electro marker?
seriously... I own 2 pb markers, a minimag that I added a hyperframe to and an E-mag that is ULE warp fed. I like the E marker and if there will be no advancement of it through AGD, then... am I to stop looking at the market around AGD and just follow in line to SP? You would keep me at ease by saying that you are going to advance the E-mag through the X-mag and on to the next level. It is upsetting to see the list with all mech markers.

Secondly, reputations are there because it's what the populous has seen... but don't try to hide from it. I got a Mag due to ONE, your customer service was bragged about by a Mag owner to me, and TWO, I saw an E-mag with warpfeed when it was tuned to perfection and it was (performance and looks) SWEET! Do you want us to forget who forged the way on compressed air in paintball? Maybe forget about who came up with the forced feeding system for paintball? These are also part of the Mag name.

If you want to change opinions... do it the right way, on the field at the events, in the stores, and at the local level. Don't change the name to TK INC. because people won't know your history.
EX. Phillips is still a Magnavox... we know this when we buy TVs.
Maybe it's just my opinion... but it is MY $.02 worth

[Brophog]

But your not going to see an innovation that will do what compressed air and electronics have done.

Electronics are the be all end all of innovation. Look what happened in the 20th Century once electronics were invented. We saw a massive explosion. TV, Radio, Automobiles, Aircraft.


Now, take one specific task: Accelerate a paintball down a tube at 300 FPS. Once electronics and minor tweaking is done, that's all there is to it.

You will see small innovations in the coming years, but you will never see anything develop that will do to paintball what previous innovations have done. It will not happen. In the history of technology, it is unprecedented for a simple item to change radically after the introduction of the modern circuit board. A paintball marker is as simple as they come.

To compete now, you must have an electronic marker, or be satisfied with producing a high end, custom type of mechanical marker. If you can't carve your niche, you must appeal to the masses. In order to do that, you have to hype, market, and create tension that forces people to buy your product without thinking about why. You need that WOW factor.

We're past the point of technology. Technology WILL not lead to the success of future companies in this industry. Marketing, the root of all evil in business, is the only way to cut through. You must appeal to the trillions of idiots who cant read, cant spell, and cant think. Use flashy colors and lie to them a lot. That's how you'll sell merchandise.

[Butterfingers]

you must think outside the typical box of paintballs

I know of one way we can make guns more efficent. Shoot flatter and farther and feed faster. AND cheaper if it catches on.

Ke= 1/2 mv^2

If you don't exceed the safe limits you can manipulate that equation however you want.

[tg ur 1t]

don't lose morals and lie to the public... some of us aren't the minions you see following the leader around. We have morals and our own developed opinions.

[Brophog]

Ke= 1/2 mv^2

Nice try, but you only have two variables, mass and velocity.

Velocity is governed to 300 FPS. Mass of the paintball is governed by ASTM standards.

You can certainly get more force, but you'd have to redesign not only the masks, but clothing as well. If you wanted to run around in full padding and be pelted by paintballs that are unlikely to break due to that excessive padding, then that equation works fine. ;)

[Odder]

Originally posted by WARPED1
Unfortunatly, modern day players want electros, n00bs or "pros". So, if AGD doesn't produce an electro, they'll fade away. Tippmann even offers electro versions of thier guns. The companies that don't, fade awaY.
Like ACI.

Hmmm.... I guess I better get on the phone and tell that to Mike Cassidy at CCI to revemp his products or else he will be ruined. :D

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by Brophog


Nice try, but you only have two variables, mass and velocity.

Velocity is governed to 300 FPS. Mass of the paintball is governed by ASTM standards.

You can certainly get more force, but you'd have to redesign not only the masks, but clothing as well. If you wanted to run around in full padding and be pelted by paintballs that are unlikely to break due to that excessive padding, then that equation works fine. ;)

You sir are correct... but are still thinking inside the same sized box....

A .223 and a 50 AE have the same muzzle energy... Which one travels farther... which one shoots flatter...

ASTM is there for saftey... which determines how much KE is safe.

[Brophog]

True, I suppose.

Thinking logically from the dawn of paintball, until today, haven't we jumped over every hurdle?

Lets compare it to real firearms.

We have the bow, limited in range and speed.
We begin experimenting with gunpowder and shot. Not accurate, very slow.
We invent the conical bullet. More accurate, but still slow.
We invent the cartridge. We now have an accurate projectile, and we can load them quicker.
The we begin perfecting this idea, inventing several self cocking mechanisms. We then move up to machine guns, and assault rifles.

And then we, for all purposes, stop. We've been at this stage, by and large unchaged, for over 60 YEARS! Think of how much all other facets of technology has changed in that time span, yet the small arms capability has remained virtually unchanged.

This is where paintball is at, IMO. Our big boundary has always been speed, and we gotten that up so high, that for the range a paintball will effectively break, we have almost assured ourselves of several hits.

We have relatively efficient systems, consistent systems, systems that are no longer impeded by air source and feed rates.

What is there to accomplish next?

[tg ur 1t]

who turned the post channel to Bill Nye the science guy? Weren't we just on "AGD... the end of the electro, the reshaping of the mag."?

[Butterfingers]

Thats the million dollar question...

[tg ur 1t]

things may not advance as fast as the computer, but smaller electronics and lighter weight systems that incorperate multiple functions are going to come out. small changes each, but advancements non the less.


oooops, I changed the channel back to the AGD show.

[Brophog]

I agree with you Butters, that we could tweak our projectile mass and velocity to achieve the same force, yet possibly arrive at a projectile with a more stable flight.

The problem is, with paint being cheap, and marker speeds being what they are, who outside of the pumpers cares enough about projectile force to even bother with such things. Without a radical change in play style, the price of paint would only go up if any kind of change were made to the projectile we see today. In the current, half case a game atmosphere we see today, I don't think the average uneducated consumer would willingly pay more per ball if we tried to convince him that his paint would fly straighter at a lower velocity.

While I completely agree that the real innovator here is potentially is the projectile, I don't see the paint companies doing a whole lot. The reason I say this is, when you go up the distribution chain, you don't have that many real paint producers fighting for your dollar. The distributors have something to gain, but not the manufacturers, to a degree.

Whereas, you compare this to say, the marker manufacturers, you have a LOT more manufacturers fighting for that dollar.

[Butterfingers]

I kinda agree with you here for this industry to survive and preventing SP from integrating itself into every facet of our lives just like Microsoft. We must fight this bogus patent...

Unfortunatley thats the EASIEST way. Which is costly and difficult.

As we can see the industry has set its standards... and to create a new standard would be beyond the financial realm of a small company like AGD. It could catch on but not without agressive marketing. And even then its one big crapshoot...

If you look into the future it looks dark... we either have to deal with it now or deal with it later... Or get out before it caves in on you.

Sadly for a fiscally sound company like AGD that can survive without an electro 3 is the best option.

[Brophog]

I see this as less of a marketing/technology issue and more of a gameplay issue.

If we keep going the way we are, we're going to see nothing but electros on the field, for the most part. I'm not saying pumps or mechanicals can't make it, but I don't see that many people working hard enough at their game to make it worthwhile. Would you buy a $500 mech and overcome that speed deficiency, or buy a $500 electro, and not worry about it.

This is what our narrow minded, speed induced, "get out of the woods" mentality has created. You want all speedball, all the time. You got it!

What that creates though, is a very limited fanbase for your product. You can't come any where close to supporting the number of manufacturers we have today if your only selling to one demographic. That's what we're doing.

Sure, we have scenarios, and for a large degree, they're still mechanical right now. I think that has more to do with the perceived notion that electros can't cut it in the woods, which is a myth. As more people start to realize their markers aren't as fragile as we make them seem, you'll see more electros in the scenario side as well. Besides, that's a small percentage when you consider that more and more fields "rec" scene is becoming largely dominated by small fields and lots of paint. It makes a lot of sense for the field owner, but not for the manufacturing side of things.

We must change our thinking from technology, to gameplay dynamics. Create realms for more markers, of varied types and styles. Marker classes in tournaments, more scenario style markers, more realistic "milsim" markers. Structured fields where speed is not the be all, end all of the game.

I'm not here to bash speedball. I like speedball. However, your quickly limiting not only your demographic, but your price class. The days of a walk on picking up a rental, a hopper, and some paint are ending QUICKLY. We see it on a lot of boards, at a lot of fields. No one wants to go out and get beat consistently. Its not fun. To compete, without serious practice, takes a player with a fast marker, a fast hopper, a lot of pods, a lot of paint, and HPA system. That's a lot of money.

When you consider that "infrastructure", just to play a weekend rec game, your effectively cutting out your lower budget players AND lower end manufacturers. Tippmann is alright, but they're the king of the scenario side. Kingmann introduces more and more electro sear trippers every year, and the prices are getting up there in that 200+ range. How long can they survive as "budget" electros, with all the other stuff one needs to feed that paint monster? Players quickly realize that it wasn't worth saving $100-$150 on an E-Pirahna or E-Spyder.

Now, if we pushed to re-introduce bigger play fields, mechanical marker tournaments, pump tournaments, and other variants, all the sudden that lower end market opens up again. It wont be easy, because this industry has all but conceded itself to paint sales alone, but it is possible. It may not seem dire now, because we're still in a growth cycle, but I assure you, if the trend of limited play fields and styles continues, you will see some harsh economic times when we begin to exit this growth cycle.

[Butterfingers]

As much as I would like to see that happen. It means less money for everybody.

Most of the big hitters in the industry would never go for it.

[Brophog]

Too True.

But it will be at THEIR loss. Not all of them, of course. You'll certainly see fewer and fewer people in this industry if things don't begin to change though.

[AGD]

Ask yourself these two questions (like I did).

1. Can the Emag or Xmag as it is today gain market share against Timmys, Shockers and DM4's? yes/no

2. Can AGD's mechanical guns gain market share against Tippmans products in the rec market? yes/no

Now remember, we are not changing the name of AGD, we are not dropping our valve system and you still have a Hyperframe option. If the industry issues come under control we will get going on another e-gun. I don't expect you to wait but then again you never did anyway. All of our customers own other guns.

Even though you see very few of our e-guns in tourney play, everyone is saying we are foolish to not produce it. Does that really make sense?

AGD

[melch]

Tom you have been in the bussines for how many years now and your products have been praised by those who have owned one or by those who have been owned by one and mocked by players who are yet to have either so let your product do the talking as they have done for years. If you need to do away with electros then do so im sick of batteries anyway but this new step you are taking with only having the rtp, tac one, and warp feed, may not be a step in dirrection do what you do best. However the ule custome i think is just what AGD needed it is a pro level gun for a great price it looks great it shoots incredibly fast and consistant and its light.
I have been hearing about the down fall of ADG for a long time but its the same in no matter what sport " THE BEST WILL PLAY " wether its football baseball or paintball all you can do is make the best product possible and let your products do the speaking for you. Wether its noobs novice or pros(imo anyway) all they want is a reiliable gun that rips is accurate and looks good it seems like you have a site of people here that think your products fits that criteria.

GOOD LUCK & GOD BLESS
Taylor Melcher
"melch"

[Brophog]

To answer that:

1) No
2) No

I think that's pretty much agreed on. I think you only need to look at some of the above posts to see that in order to sell a product, and effectively market that product, you need a demographic for that product.

You don't sell pants with sparklies on them to 35 year olds. You don't sell baby dolls to 20 year olds. You don't sell corvettes to people on welfare.

The reason the answer is no to both questions is that there are not enough markets in paintball for the number of markers we have. Some of that is the way the game is played, and some of that is individual manufacturers being able to find their appropriate "niche" and volume level to do what they want to do.

[Butterfingers]

Sucks being right in the middle of things dosent it...

Too expensive for the beginer... Not hyped enough to be high end...

All we have left are loyal customers and people who actually took time to research a product in depth. Unfortunately they are like the great plains buffalo... few and far between.

I think tom is trying to say that Reality bites...

The reality theory states that things are the way they are and if we don't look at things the way they are things tend to work against you.

Unfortunately AGD dosent have the marketing might or the budget to make all our dreams reality.

[tg ur 1t]

this is why I ask the question...
do you want me to follow the lines to SP?
I think that the E marker has it's place, but without the company and customer marketing (word of mouth, local presence) the marker won't be seen as a contender. If a pro sponsered team winning in the big leagues were running all E-mags... you may see the sales go up. As well as things like the Karta bodies on the E-mag would bring in the bling crowd.
I don't own any other marker than MAGS. I haven't used a cocker or angel. I don't even want to try one. I like the look and performance of my E-mag.
I didn't trust the hyperframe, and still don't to an extent. I had RobAGD put mine together for me and have seen too many other fail because the electronics aren't strong enough to really fire the MINI.
I guess that Tom needs to ask himself the question...
Do I go after the top end market or do I go after the Rec-ball market?
It doesn't seem as though he can afford to do both.

And TOM
"I don't expect you to wait but then again you never did anyway."
I am sorry that you are hurt about some owning other types of markers, but find me a family that hasn't tried a different brand of some product. You mean you have never had Coca-Cola or Pepsi. Maybe some other soda.

[Tunaman]

Originally posted by AGD
There are a lot of people (not on this forum) who think a Mag is an old stainless gun. No matter what we do they will always believe that. If they hear "Tac-one" they have to find out what it is before they diss it. Make sense?

I say a lot of things on this forum. After all it's where I come to test the pulse of the market. On occasion I try to incite a debate by taking a stab at something. Remember the Crown Point Barrel thread? Watching the ensuing argument helps me get a handle on how you feel. One of the big things is the proportion of looks to technology, I still don't have a reasonable assesment of that.

AGD Well HERE is the my latest "old stainless gun". If I have to sell my house, cars, boat, and /or soul and body on the street I will be here to help. AGD is not going anywhere but uphill if I have anything at all to say about it. I will put this marker against ANY other marker on the planet and WILL come out in front everytime. How can that be? Because YOU TK...have designed and engineered it to be the best...and it certainly is. Long live AGD! May the Mag piss on everything else...like it has always done. Someone please take this pic and post it on all the other forums you can find. Maybe someone out there is looking for an "old stainless mag". Oh...and if your name is Trevin Geer, "This Mag's for you Bud!";) :o :D
http://tunamart.com/images/trevpballertunamax1.jpg
http://tunamart.com/images/trevpballertunamax2.jpg
http://tunamart.com/images/trevpballertunamax3.jpg

[Brophog]

If a pro sponsered team winning in the big leagues were running all E-mags... you may see the sales go up.

That takes a lot of money to sponsor a top pro team to do that. Like I said before, teams shoot what people pay them to shoot. The fees to get a top pro team to shoot your marker are going up VERY fast.

I don't think AGD has a quarter million dollars lying around to make this happen.

[tg ur 1t]

Originally posted by tg ur 1t
If a pro sponsered team winning in the big leagues were running all E-mags... you may see the sales go up.
I guess that Tom needs to ask himself the question...
Do I go after the top end market or do I go after the Rec-ball market?
It doesn't seem as though he can afford to do both.



not to quote myself but...
:rolleyes:

I am sure it does cost. I can't afford to sponser a team.

and we know the minions will follow the current winning team.

[momags!]

The Bible Code predicted the end of AGD in the year 2005.:eek:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by AGD
All of our customers own other guns.

Not this one :)

I bought this one in 1993:

http://www.chimpy.com/pics/pball/guns/mag.jpg

...and this one in 2003:

http://www.chimpy.com/pics/pball/guns/emag.jpg

Plus a shed load of parts, accessories and upgrades. They're the only markers I've owned in the last decade. If I've waited 10 years between markers before, another couple waiting for the next one won't hurt :)

[shartley]

Originally posted by painball
A step in the right direction. :) The industry is really collapsing right now.
The industry is by far not collapsing. The industry is growing up, and in fact growing. And this is causing some changes, that’s all.

Players are still getting the products that they have wanted, and at the same prices they were (for the most part). Now some may say that since AGD will not be making E/X-Mags any more they are not getting THOSE products, but be honest about it….. if the demand for those products was as great as what is talked about here on AO, I am sure Tom would not be making this move.

To me it looks like AGD is directing their attention to a portion of the market they can actually compete in. It looks like they did all the math and determined that with so many Electric marker on the market, and at cheaper prices, it was not cost effective to continue in this direction, or at least without some major redesign.

And sorry to tell some folks, this would have happened with, or without Smart Parts. And those who have been watching for the past 2 years would have seen this coming….. if they had wanted to let themselves see it.

I think Tom is doing the right thing, and paintball will benefit from it. Some of us have been pushing the RTPro and Mechanical markers HARD for years, and even told AGD every chance we could that we felt not enough attention was being paid to this portion of their products.

Sure, there will be those who just don’t see it, because THEY want an E-Mag, or an X-Mag. But how many are THEY going to buy? Has the market really cried out for these products? How have actual sales and interest been? I think the answer to those questions are hidden in Tom’s other posts concerning the reasons why they are making this move. And then you bounce that off of the cost to get them made. Is it really worth it?

Well, that is for AGD to decide, and it looks like they have.

And what some are forgetting as well, is that Tom did NOT say they are not going to come out with an Electronic Marker. Folks do no read posts or statements in their entirety. They read it and allow only part of it to sink in. AGD is still going to develop E-Markers.

Then as I read along, Tom clearly states what I just stated above:

Originally posted by AGD
Ask yourself these two questions (like I did).

1. Can the Emag or Xmag as it is today gain market share against Timmys, Shockers and DM4's? yes/no

2. Can AGD's mechanical guns gain market share against Tippmans products in the rec market? yes/no

Now remember, we are not changing the name of AGD, we are not dropping our valve system and you still have a Hyperframe option. If the industry issues come under control we will get going on another e-gun. I don't expect you to wait but then again you never did anyway. All of our customers own other guns.

Even though you see very few of our e-guns in tourney play, everyone is saying we are foolish to not produce it. Does that really make sense?

AGD


Originally posted by Brophog
To answer that:

1) No
2) No

I think that's pretty much agreed on. I think you only need to look at some of the above posts to see that in order to sell a product, and effectively market that product, you need a demographic for that product.

You don't sell pants with sparklies on them to 35 year olds. You don't sell baby dolls to 20 year olds. You don't sell corvettes to people on welfare.

The reason the answer is no to both questions is that there are not enough markets in paintball for the number of markers we have. Some of that is the way the game is played, and some of that is individual manufacturers being able to find their appropriate "niche" and volume level to do what they want to do.

I have to strongly disagree with this. The answer is NO/YES. And Tom knows that.

Some of what you say is very true, but if Tom wants to even attempt to compete, he has to choose the area of the market that he CAN compete in realistically. I am not saying you don’t have valid points, but I don’t see them as being totally valid concerning the market Tom is now going to put his focus on (at least for now).

This market is willing to pay much higher prices for mechanical markers than I think you are realizing. Also, as long as you are in the ballpark of the Tippman markers, you WILL sell them. And Tom CAN do this.

No matter what market you are aiming at, you will not “get” some of the customers. That is a given. But if Tom can get more than he is currently getting, he WILL grow.

Sometimes people also have to go on instinct, mixed with what they see. And to listen to AO for “all” of his advise is a good way to fail, sorry to say. For example…. When I started offering custom wooden grips, there were a loud group that kept saying how wooden grips are passé and that no one wanted them. I went on gut instinct and you know what? I have a waiting list for them. And they are being asked for on mechanical AND electronic markers.

What does that tell you? It tells you that what the market WANTS, or would want if it was offered, is not what some think it is (and more so if you only listen to AO). And I think AGD has a very good chance of capitalizing on this market.

Originally posted by Butterfingers
Sucks being right in the middle of things dosent it...

Too expensive for the beginer... Not hyped enough to be high end...

All we have left are loyal customers and people who actually took time to research a product in depth. Unfortunately they are like the great plains buffalo... few and far between.

I think tom is trying to say that Reality bites...

The reality theory states that things are the way they are and if we don't look at things the way they are things tend to work against you.

Unfortunately AGD dosent have the marketing might or the budget to make all our dreams reality.
BINGO! And if trying to provide every voice with exactly what they want gets AGD nowhere and they DO have to close up shop, how does that help anyone? However, by doing what AGD thinks it needs to so they can remain a viable player in the industry and provide players with a quality products (even if not what was originally offered), everyone wins.


Originally posted by Tunaman
Well HERE is the my latest "old stainless gun". If I have to sell my house, cars, boat, and /or soul and body on the street I will be here to help. AGD is not going anywhere but uphill if I have anything at all to say about it. I will put this marker against ANY other marker on the planet and WILL come out in front everytime. How can that be? Because YOU TK...have designed and engineered it to be the best...and it certainly is. Long live AGD! May the Mag piss on everything else...like it has always done. Someone please take this pic and post it on all the other forums you can find. Maybe someone out there is looking for an "old stainless mag". Oh...and if your name is Trevin Geer, "This Mag's for you Bud!";) :o :D

While I applaud the exuberance, and loyalty, I have to state that none of that matters when your product is not getting into the hands of the players as fast as the other markers on the market. We see time and again how products that are NOT the best make it to the top of any given market, while those that ARE the best sometimes don’t survive.

We have had this discussion more than once on AO. Heck, look at the keyboard you are using to type on these forums. THAT was not the best layout, but we now use it as standard. Which car is actually the “better” car, Mustang or Corvette? But which car is seen in greater numbers on the road? (Yeah, and I own a Mustang too, but KNOW that overall the Corvette is a better car.) And you can also ask the same question about Mustangs in general….. Which is better the V8 or the V6? But which car makes up the majority of the Mustang sales? I could go on listing these things all day, but I think we get the picture.

I think AGD is doing the right thing. I wish they had actually started doing it much sooner though. I know this move does not feel good to diehard E-Mag users, but I think in the end it will work out for the best. And when/if AGD comes out with a new E-Marker, it will be superior to the current E-Mag. So again, everyone wins.

[EZbunker]

I disagree. Not that I'm playing much anymore, but I've had the same A.I.R. valve 'mag for ten years+, still using that (no RT, no electro - had both) and I feel absolutely no need to get anything else.

I'm definately not in the 'one shot-one kill, why do you guys shoot so much paint? school' (more like, if you need it, one case one kill) but the crutch provided to players by electro markers and HRF guns (High rate of fire) has dumbed skill down so far these days that its just plain embarassing to watch people playing these days.

Forget the constitutional ban on alternative marriages, I want a consitutional ban on allowing anyone to play anything other than pump woods ball until they have at least 10,000 hours in on the field. Then maybe they'll have some playing skills.....


Originally posted by Steelrat
What Im worried about is that, during the period AGD is not making an electro, former AGD owners will be forced to look elsewhere for new guns.

[Gadget]

Totally agree with you EZbunker - I think Steelrat's comment should be altered to read:


What Im worried about is that, during the period AGD is not making an electro, compulsive gun whores will be forced to look elsewhere for new guns. ;)

[EZbunker]

ANY special interest that goes commercial is going to change - mightily - in order to become commercial. Big dollars can't be made by selling to a few hundred or a few thousand die-hard fanatics, so in order to appeal to the masses you have to dumb everything down and play to the least-common-denominator. Then, once it begins to look like there IS money to be made, the folks who's game is adding zeros to the bank account have a vested interest in keeping it dumbed down...


Originally posted by Butterfingers


Moreover I dont think Tom likes what this industry has become. It certainly is a diffrent atmosphere than when he started AGD. The original spirit of the game is gone... Its all about big business, and pro teams now.

Everybody wants paintball to be big and expand... what nobody expected was the inevitable... commercialization. Just like Baseball, Football, and Golf. Where almost every athlete has nike gear...

[punkncat]

Originally posted by AGD
Ask yourself these two questions (like I did).

1. Can the Emag or Xmag as it is today gain market share against Timmys, Shockers and DM4's? yes/no

2. Can AGD's mechanical guns gain market share against Tippmans products in the rec market? yes/no

The obvious answer to 1 is no.This is due simply to the fact that there is a lack of market buzz on the product.I think many people here have stated this fact as well.

The answer to 2 is trickier.I would guess that AGD wishes that the answer to this were obvious.
On a quality/price standpoint the Mag is aguably the best marker available on the market right now.What is prohibative to a new player is the starting price.Even though we know that as the upgrade path is followed the same money eventually will be spent with sometimes questionable results...Its still going to be hard for mom and dad to justify spending 400$ on a new Mag vs 125$ for a new Tippy.
Even worse is the fact that so many decent E markers are breaking into the mid and low end market, that the Mag will have even more to contend with.

[Tunaman]

Originally posted by shartley

While I applaud the exuberance, and loyalty, I have to state that none of that matters when your product is not getting into the hands of the players as fast as the other markers on the market. We see time and again how products that are NOT the best make it to the top of any given market, while those that ARE the best sometimes don’t survive.

Oh contrare....The products available from AGD ARE flying out the door faster than I can get them in. There IS a waiting list right now...and its getting longer by the day. It is my gut feeling that this product could sustain for another 2 years at least. "The players"? Who might that be referring to?...because it certainly not the "spectators" that are buying them. Who cares what the pros are shooting? Its all about how much money they get paid to shoot a particular marker. It has nothing to do with anything else. AGD has JUST started to come around again...and I feel this move may beat them back down a bit. I am sure that none of us wants that to happen...again. But I certainly trust that TK has seen it all, and I will be there to sell and fix whatever product line he engineers for the future. Boy is it gonna be great.;) :D :p

[cphilip]

Well if you had seen the response to the Custom RT Pro I got at the CFOA yesterday you would think twice about Mechanicals making a come back in tournament play. I can feel the itch for some people to want to get away from what they have issues with. Eyes and things always going down and such. If you can give them a fast shooting mechanical with good looks and a fairly light trigger a percentage of them are ready to think about it. These are people that have owned them all. People willing to admit its not the electronics that make them shoot faster. Nor the need to shoot fast that makes them good players. I can see a trend from a percentage of older more experienced players to that end.

And least we forget the real money in numbers is not in tournament play. Its in the average joe that wants a rec marker that would not limit him if he chose to enter the every now and then tournament. There is no real other markers out there but Mags and cockers the do this for you. And people are tending to move away from the cockers for that. Too much knowledge and maintenance for them. So really the slot for Mags exists. Somewhere in the transition position. A fast shooting low maintenance marker that will do it in rec play but is capable enough to feel confident in if you wanted to play a tournament every once in a while. And now with light pretty milling and optional accessories.

Are they dead you ask? No... they are just finding their position. Feeling out their space and time.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Tunaman

Oh contrare....The products available from AGD ARE flying out the door faster than I can get them in. There IS a waiting list right now...and its getting longer by the day. It is my gut feeling that this product could sustain for another 2 years at least. "The players"? Who might that be referring to?...because it certainly not the "spectators" that are buying them. Who cares what the pros are shooting? Its all about how much money they get paid to shoot a particular marker. It has nothing to do with anything else. AGD has JUST started to come around again...and I feel this move may beat them back down a bit. I am sure that none of us wants that to happen...again. But I certainly trust that TK has seen it all, and I will be there to sell and fix whatever product line he engineers for the future. Boy is it gonna be great.;) :D :p
That is wonderful for you Tunaman…. But think about it…. if that was the case everywhere, we would not be having this conversation.

But I agree that AGD will come through this, and it will be great.


Originally posted by cphilip
Well if you had seen the response to the Custom RT Pro I got at the CFOA yesterday you would think twice about Mechanicals making a come back in tournament play. I can feel the itch for some people to want to get away from what they have issues with. Eyes and things always going down and such. If you can give them a fast shooting mechanical with good looks and a fairly light trigger a percentage of them are ready to think about it. These are people that have owned them all. People willing to admit its not the electronics that make them shoot faster. Nor the need to shoot fast that makes them good players. I can see a trend from a percentage of older more experienced players to that end.

And least we forget the real money in numbers is not in tournament play. Its in the average joe that wants a rec marker that would not limit him if he chose to enter the every now and then tournament. There is no real other markers out there but Mags and cockers the do this for you. And people are tending to move away from the cockers for that. Too much knowledge and maintenance for them. So really the slot for Mags exists. Somewhere in the transition position. A fast shooting low maintenance marker that will do it in rec play but is capable enough to feel confident in if you wanted to play a tournament every once in a while. And now with light pretty milling and optional accessories.

Are they dead you ask? No... they are just finding their position. Feeling out their space and time.
I agree with everything you said.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by AGD
Ask yourself these two questions (like I did).

1. Can the Emag or Xmag as it is today gain market share against Timmys, Shockers and DM4's? yes/no

2. Can AGD's mechanical guns gain market share against Tippmans products in the rec market? yes/no

Now remember, we are not changing the name of AGD, we are not dropping our valve system and you still have a Hyperframe option. If the industry issues come under control we will get going on another e-gun. I don't expect you to wait but then again you never did anyway. All of our customers own other guns.

Even though you see very few of our e-guns in tourney play, everyone is saying we are foolish to not produce it. Does that really make sense?

AGD

The answer to both is no, not market share, but sales can remain steady. There are far too many options out there, and far to many uneducated consumers, or consumers who want to "look" cool for you to gain much in market share. BTW, changing the mag, making a panther style gun, is not going to change this. BTW, is this vast increase in market shares, having to produce more guns, what you want? It seems to me you were producing to sales, or even under.

I see more of your e-guns in tourney play (local) than you would expect.

Let me compare this to the car brand Volvo, and the stereotypes around it. Remember the old square 240 Volvo. This was always a workhorse, known for safety, known for reliability, known for longevity. Volvo sold what it produced, not a ton, but there target was the educated consumer who would research a product and choose the "best" not someone who would buy something for looks. A volvo district rep flat out told me (laughingly) there target with the 240 was the college professer with the leather over his jacket elbows. They sold all the could produce, they built a reputation, and they could still sell those ugly battle tanks today were they to produce them.

Now Volvo makes cars with turbos (one with a top speed of about 180MPH) and an SUV?? and has to beg the public, well really its old consumers, to beleive its safe. Sure its an SUV, the market looked like it needed and SUV, but its old buyers are not running out to buy it. They changed demographics, with that, with the S series of vehicles, frankly with the 740 on up. BTW, the 740 had issues, issues that lost them many of the loyal consumers who jumped from the 240 to it, many of the loyal consumers did not even jump. The C70 convertible, hyped like mad, remember the movie "The Saint" and all the advertising around it. Guess what, it sat on the show room floor, because it did not appeal to the "loyal" market and it had a Puegot engine in it, which al the volvos with Puegot engines have had issues.

The e-mag appeals to me. Its durable, rugged, I like the simple looks, and even if electronics fail (I don't trust electronics, its why Im slow to go to a warp, I trust gravity backup on my non force fed hoppers) I'm still in business. Thats why I don't have a hyperframe on my RT mag (would have been cheaper than buying a whole new e-mag).

So some people don't like it. Mention the '03 shocker to people, some don't like it for various reasons, ditto cockers, angels, vikings, matrixes, impulses, and nearly every other gun out there. The trick, I beleive, as a manufacturer, is to aim for your market, and try to steal some of the other markets - don't aim for the other markets and just hope your market follows you.

I am just concerned as to what direction you are going with this, are we no longer going to be the durability and the depedability that so many of us have come to trust in AGD? Are we designing to the hype of the shocker? Then, after all of this, I have to add. It is your company, your money, do whatever you see appropriate with it, even if we don't like it. I just hope, that what yuo feel like, is designing a gun with hi tech science in mind, rather than the hype of magic elves.

[Steelrat]

The buying public has traditionally shown a preference to cost over quality. I don't see how the paintball market will differ.

I hope eliminating the X isnt going to have too much impact on AGD. I dont think AGD made a lot, if any, profit on it, but it served as a "halo" product, directing people towards the brand, if not the Xmag itself.

[painball]

Logically the only thing AGD can do to put up a fight is to drop the mag name. It has been overused and abused for too long low. The stereotype added to it doesn't help business either.

Once the electro battle dies down Tom can release something revolutionary. I am one that likes to believe there is an undiscovered idea just waiting to explode. Tom is always thinkin up something new. :)

By the way, this thread tempts me to ditch my Angel and get an E-Mag. I need to show some AGD spirit...and shoot something that actually works. :D

[Chronobreak]

ok screw elctros time for the mech revolution WHOS WITH ME!!.............................................. .....................:/

[CaptaiN_JacK]

this has to be the most depressing thread in this forum ever. AGD will come out with a better gun, they arent going to go under. loyal customers will always be there for them.

[Chronobreak]

weird.................i was under the impressin agd HAD the best gun already hence me owning two

[Crimson_Turkey]

I thought all we needed was to get a big 2 page full color ad in APG that blabbers on and on truthfully about how great the x-valve and HES are. I swear, most newbs I know want whatever gun had the biggest picture in APG.

[OysterBoy]

Thats funny, how come a local shop here in Canada just updated their shop with E-Mags, X-Mags, and many other AGD shtuff:
http://www.shop.sofpaintball.com

same with:

http://www.paintballgear.ca/catalog/default.php?currency=CDN&page=1&osCsid=909d793211bd52f0ea3a553107beeddc

...hmmm....flatline, intelliframe, RT Valve...?


Food for thought (but tastes better when orally ingested)

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by EZbunker
ANY special interest that goes commercial is going to change - mightily - in order to become commercial. Big dollars can't be made by selling to a few hundred or a few thousand die-hard fanatics, so in order to appeal to the masses you have to dumb everything down and play to the least-common-denominator. Then, once it begins to look like there IS money to be made, the folks who's game is adding zeros to the bank account have a vested interest in keeping it dumbed down...

YES! Obviously you're not a zombie!;)

[Brophog]

I have to disagree with a lot of this. I live in the middle of Kansas, and if I'm seeing this drastic change in the rec scene towards high speed and electros, I can only imagine what it may be like on the coasts.

The fact is, more and more fields are getting smaller, and more people are shooting more paint. I don't have a problem with this as my experience and unique skills can overcome it. However, I see it all the time, a frustrated kid or first timer that is just feeling bullied because he has a mechanical.

The fact is, mechanicals are going the wayside. I don't agree with it, or like it, buts it true. The electros are becoming cheaper, with cheaper alternatives available from traditional entry level manufacturers. As I said earlier, the occasional rec player now must buy so much crap in order to compete enough to have fun, that your elminating your budget market.

I like what Tom's doing. It may be premature, but we don't know all the facts either.

I think we need to seriously look at the bigger picture, outside of AGD. The game has changed, its focus has changed, and that means its market has changed. You must be willing to respect that.

[Bolter]

I really like my X-mag and I play in top tournies. And even though my gun out performs nearly all other guns (i.e no chops at 18bps) I still get little comments from people who I know think that I must own a stainless, heavy, chuffing, mag from the woods era. Even when we beat the cr@p out of decent Pro teams, we still get the comments. Apart from Dynasty. We didn't play or beat them, but they asked us about them in a positive manner. So I think that this is a clever move from TK, keep the winning design, just market it differently, and change its image slightly.

And TK, you will (or maybe not) be suprised by the loyalty of your fanbase. I know for a fact that each and everyone of us on here gives props at all meets, rec days, tournies, walk-ons etc to any un educated fools who just don't know the mag is the best, but comment anyways.

[AGD]

Admitedly electros are the rage right now for the fire power, but ask yourself, is it the electronics or the resulting trigger that you really want?

AGD

[Duck Hunt]

Trigger! TRIGGER!!! I want a crazy *** light trigger pull and none of those stupid curcuit boards. Thats why I can't wait to order my RT Pro with a ULT and see how that sucker feels.

Sean

[Joni]

Exactly what I wanted to hear! Imagine a mech with a electro pull. No batteries, lightweight, fast and reliable.

[Steelrat]

Its the trigger I want, along with the ACE. Lets face it, most of the people buying high end guns are looking for ACE and some sort of bounce. If I could find a mech trigger that felt like an electro, and a antio chop system like level 10 that reset faster, Id be perfectly happy.

[Steelrat]

Oh, I also want a thermometer and a little display that displays "POW" every time I pull the trigger. Must haves.

[trevorjk]

the only real advancements in the paintball community that i see actually making an impact would be great efficiency say at least a case off of a 68/3000 can AKA ecen claim or do that? but as far as speed of all the guns there all pretty much matched and its now up to the user to actually shoot that fast

and as for my mag... i was able to walk it last night insanely fast and i already can hit 13 bps over the chrono and this blew it away :eek: and the funny thing is i havent even implemented my trigger mod yet :rolleyes: so for those to say that trigger is everything maybe you should put a little practice into pulling your trigger cuase im getting 13bps with my mech mag with xvalve and ult and have been able to walk it recently


***after reading what i just wrote i seam stupid lol but yeah theres a few good points to be made in my post i think***

[Brophog]

Originally posted by trevorjk
the only real advancements in the paintball community that i see actually making an impact would be great efficiency say at least a case off of a 68/3000 can AKA ecen claim or do that?


Your not getting that kind of efficiency out of a pump marker! Its not gonna happen. Even if it did, it will not change how the game is played, which is the real reason the market is where it is at. It will just be a number you throw out there to convince the masses that something is "better".

You absolutely right about speed being overrated. Mech mags can still perform on the field, as can blazers and well tuned cockers.

However, your marketing to people who have chosen not to think. They're into "shiny", "new", and "best". I think some of these people really think its more important to sound good, than BE good. I quite like it that way, myself.

To address Tom, obviously they are after speed. We know that the RT Pro has it in abundance, not only in the area of trigger, but recharge rate as well. We also know that its a lot easier dealing with a tweaked L10 than it is with a faulty eye.

But it doesnt have the silly little LCD screen. It doesn't have the software buffering to make up for lost cycles due to the ACE. It also is not tinkerable or "upgradeable", which somehow, in this industry, and this industry alone, is a desirable quality. If I made a car that needed new steering, new brakes, and $1000 upgrade kit to make it somewhat fuel efficient, I wouldn't sell many cars. Why on earth is paintball different?

I don't like it. I think most high end mechanicals do just fine, but I'm vastly in the minority. Electros are where its at, and due to the current and predictable future prices, they will only gain a larger market. Eventually, mechanicals WILL fall to the side, with only a small percentage of producers making any. That is of course if we continue with our current trend.

Its really no different than when pumps were phased out. To this day I can fire most pump markers as fast as your average blowback. I don't have to deal with chops, I get superb efficiency and consistency. Yet, we see so many blowbacks on the market. To me, its not logical, but that's the way it is.

You either embrace it, or you fold. I'm not a big supporter of trying to beat out the guys who already have a tight grip on the electro market. I'm also not a supporter that mechs can't compete. I'm a realist though, and if you wanna make mechs, you have to do it profitable and within your own market.

[SPLASH1]

If you could make a mechanical marker with the trigger pull and rate of fire of a electro I would be all over that. I personally do not know if it can be done, but I know TK does. That is the one thing that I am sure of TK is one of the smartest men I know in this industry when it comes to markers.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by AGD
Admitedly electros are the rage right now for the fire power, but ask yourself, is it the electronics or the resulting trigger that you really want?

AGD

Its the lack of user error of an electro - the reason I went from my mechanical mag (non-ULT) to an e-mag was my habit of shortstroking and chuffing with my mechanical mag. Make me a mechanical mag that I can't short stroke and Im all for it. - I know level ten works, but not when I roll a ball a few inches down the barrel and the next oen goes through it.

[barrel break]

well, i see much of the same rhetoric on the wgppress boards, people shouting "mech. Revoloution!" and such, or predicting wgp's demise, the difference is....
AGD= ending production of electro's, moving to niche market of mechs
WGP= moving aggressivley into electro's, losing its mechs..

speaking as an owner of a mech cocker who is trying to trade for a mech mag, i will say that ROF is VERY important in todays market, also, everyone wants the flashiest, fastest, most expensive marker in the high-end market. Mags dont seem to deliver that... (excluding upgraded)
as to Tom's Q regarding taking market share from Tippmann..
visit the tippmann.com forums and see for yourself why people choose tippmanns,
1.reliability (mags've got it)
2.price (mags are way more expensive)

despite this I do not see many new players buying mags, but many experienced players are trading in for mech mags, or trying to....

hope that made some sense...

EDIT: also, this entire thread, and also this board, have depressed me greatly lately....

[punkncat]

Originally posted by AGD
Admitedly electros are the rage right now for the fire power, but ask yourself, is it the electronics or the resulting trigger that you really want?

AGD

I actually swapped back to mechanical from electro, due to the high ROF in the RTpro.I don't have to worry about batteries , rain , bad solenoids ...etc you get the picture.And topped with LVL10 instead of eyes with on again off again reliabilty.Its a no brainer.

To see a mechanical with a trigger as light and adjustable as an electro would be nice......

[WARPED1]

Lots of the rec ballers, the only viable market for mechs, either don't have acess to or can't afford HPA. Therefore, making a mech only scenario gun is paintball suicide.

[Brophog]

That is VERY VERY quickly changing. Fewer and fewer people are playing with low end mechanicals these days, and right or wrong, the "virtues" of HPA have been exploited.

It is quickly becoming "suicide" for commercial fields not to offer HPA.

[smilestyler]

If my emag turns into a dinosaur like an original RT, I will be very disappointed with this move by AGD. But I ordered a new RT Pro to try out the new direction of markers they are suggesting. I don't see it doing well in tournaments, but I have never had anything but Mags so I don't see a choice yet.
Does anyone wish to speculate if the new AGD markers will be compatable with current stuff?

[trains are bad]

Trigger! TRIGGER!!! I want a crazy *** light trigger pull and none of those stupid curcuit boards. Thats why I can't wait to order my RT Pro with a ULT and see how that sucker feels.

Firearms have mech triggers down in the ounces. Firearm triggers do different things than marker triggers though, especially mags.

[xmetal2001]

Originally posted by trains are bad


Firearms have mech triggers down in the ounces. Firearm triggers do different things than marker triggers though, especially mags.

My Target Rifle's trigger is about 160 grams, and might be considered heavy by some. Free Pistol Triggers are insanely light.

All Mechanical.
The Pull can be made to be as short as you like, although I have it set up as a two-stage trigger.

[Chronobreak]

smile, as of know hes planning on keeping the same basic layout and most if not all compatibilty

[Tunaman]

Originally posted by Lohman446


I am just concerned as to what direction you are going with this, are we no longer going to be the durability and the depedability that so many of us have come to trust in AGD? Are we designing to the hype of the shocker? Then, after all of this, I have to add. It is your company, your money, do whatever you see appropriate with it, even if we don't like it. I just hope, that what yuo feel like, is designing a gun with hi tech science in mind, rather than the hype of magic elves. Are you kidding? Do you really think that AGD would build a piece of crap? Not a chance in hell! TK KNOWS how to build a marker...there are just so many of us that all want different things. You can't please all of the people all of the time. Whatever the Man has up his sleeve right now, you can surely bet that is it gonna be sweet, and have PLENTY of FACTUAL HYPE to back it up! Go man go...;) :o

[coolcatpete]

Originally posted by Tunaman
Are you kidding? Do you really think that AGD would build a piece of crap? Not a chance in hell! TK KNOWS how to build a marker...there are just so many of us that all want different things. You can't please all of the people all of the time. Whatever the Man has up his sleeve right now, you can surely bet that is it gonna be sweet, and have PLENTY of FACTUAL HYPE to back it up! Go man go...;) :o
Without a dought tuna is right TK knows what he is doing. It is all about trust, you don't commit to something and then back out. So just dont back out "see how far the rabbit hole goes"(I love quoting movies)
Pete

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by WARPED1
They'll be out of business fairly soon, no official word. But with no longer producing the E/X Mags.

I doubt it.

You do know that Tom does a large business with Police Depts, US Military, and Hollywood (Special Effects Companies).

Look up "Perfect Circle Paintballs". That is another of Tom's companies.

[mtbkrextrm]

Hmmmm Damn I started this thread I just got back from PAN Am Las Vegas lots of rookies playin mech cockers and all others playin electros its funny to watch them during play always swabbing, trying to clean the "eyes" running low on battery power, I am active Duty USAF and we talk more and more about which gun is better. There are those with vikings upgrading them, angels upgrading them, timmys upgrading them, they all ***** about timing on the cockers, bent rods, shoot down, the list goes on and on Dont get me wrong those other guns are awesome BUT for them It really comes down to the "BLING" AHH the joys of Americas Youth. its just like everything in America "got to have them new Nike's, the clubs that Tiger uses,the latest and greatest OAKLEY'S the Bike that LANCE rides, the H2 HUMMER (yeah I want one) (and yeah its not all that) I am hardcore about reliability and own scuba tank and 68/3000 and a 68/4500 HPA. Even with my age (38) and my big *** I still enjoy the times I get to compete and usually on the winning team and even enjoy that occasional "kill" on the breakout or the longball shot from the back right bunker. oh yeah I can rip fast enough to stay in the game with my ULE Custom (all black no BLING)12-14 BPS is fast as most anyhow and the balls are on target not all over the place. anyhow my rant is over [

[Smokee_2_7]

ya know, ive been with mags since about '95. I bought my first one when they were THE tournanment marker, and have owned and used one (I admit, along with other markers) since then. I've seen the rep go from great to bad to worse, and then back up again.

In the past year, I would say that the overall public opinion of the automag has made a dramatic increase. People are using them more often. Level 10 was a huge help in that matter. What one has to remember, it takes a long time for a bad reputation to be overcome. Currently, I see more AGD markers on my field than i've ever seen in the past. I see much, MUCH less flaming towards AGD guns on the net- - when compared to a year and a half ago.

more and more People are starting to recgonize the RT ULE as the 'best' mechanical marker out there.



Tom, as far as your question about 'is it the electronics or the trigger?'- -- The trigger. I also feel that I know where that particular question came from. My answer is yes- - - build it. Built it as soon as you can. Release it with as much marketing magic and advertising as you possibly can.

All I know is that I WANT what i saw and shot in orlando this past october. I know that several non-AGD supporters and even some 'mag-haters' were jaw-droppingly impressed. I know some personally that still talk to this day about how they would LOVE to own a 'mag that shot like that.

Simply put, it was AMAZING. when i can pick up a gun and walk the trigger at 16 or so bps without really trying. . . with NO trigger bounce, no significant weight to the marker, and most importantly NO batteries or electronics to fail: im sold. Actually, i asked how much, and when one would be available for sale. When i found out that it wouldnt be anytime soon, i said 'the heck with it' and bought a matrix to mess around with - -- in addition to my X-mag.



anyway, enough from me for now. Please, PLEASE tweak and release this product- - a mechanical gun that literally feels like an electro trigger. That, combined with the looks of somthing like the Tac-one will change the answer of question number 2 to a resounding 'yes'. If you make it reliable enough and market it well enough, it will change the answer to question 1 to a YES as well.


Carl

[barrel break]

well, trigger and ACE, its interesting...

[Barfly]

Originally posted by AGD
Admitedly electros are the rage right now for the fire power, but ask yourself, is it the electronics or the resulting trigger that you really want?

AGD

definately the trigger. Like I have said before, if AGD built a mech marker I could easily walk or fan without getting tired 13bps I would be all over that like flies on stink. Electronics are only good for high ROF and cheating. Also I don't care about ACE as long as halos and LX exist.

[cdawg]

Here is what is going to happen.

I don't know AGD's timeframe, but I can read between the lines.

Mr. Kaye is coming out with a mech marker with the pull of an electro built to the technologically superior standards of an Automag.

My only advice is this, Mr. Kaye: don't waste any more time with minor "trigger-enhancers" such as the ULT and the RT Valve. I see people posting that they can shoot 13 bps with their RT. At the chrono with your awkward finger configurations, congratulations. But when you have one hand stabilizing your body against the ground on the snake and you have to rip with the other single hand on the marker, good luck.

Bring us the superlight-mech.

[bushjumper]

Originally posted by AGD
Ask yourself these two questions (like I did).

1. Can the Emag or Xmag as it is today gain market share against Timmys, Shockers and DM4's? yes/no

2. Can AGD's mechanical guns gain market share against Tippmans products in the rec market? yes/no

AGD

1) The Xmag COULD, if it was available in a greater quantity and wasn't on the verge of being discontinued. The Xmag is the first 'mag that has what the people who buy Timmys, Shockers, and DM4's want. Drop the price a few bucks and make a bunch more of them and they could easily gain market share. I'd probably discontinue the emag though.

2) I doubt it. They would need both a) a lower price tag, and b) better functionality with CO2.

The interesting thing is that I own an upgraded mini-mag now, and was looking to maybe get an xmag and use the mini as my woods gun. now i'll probably just keep the mini as the main and pick up an tippman A-5 for the woods gun.

[tg ur 1t]

it was brought to my attention, at Mardi Gras that the weather was terrible, and if you went in to a bunker and didn't hold your marker above your head it wasn't going to work when you came out the other side. You can see from this example that mech's have some advantages over electronics... other advantages deal with batteries, weight, something else to break, etc... and the K.I.S.S. theory seems to come to mind. I have my E-mag and I can't tell the president of AGD what to do... so I will enjoy my E-mag and just see what happens.

[Arturus]

Don't post here as often, mainly due to work and school... but... My first marker was a mag and so will the next one be in my collection. If you check the history of my posts, I don't have a particular dislike for other markers. In fact if I had the cash to spare I'd love to have a Timmy, along with a cocker in my collection. The reason I stick with AGD simply comes down to their customer service and the first-hand experience in knowing that they truly do care about their customer base.

Doubt my single post means much, but there you go for what it's worth.

[phantomhitman]

it is always entertaining wathing a thread like this, i leran so much. i also figured somebody would say agd is dying as soon as tk said they are discountinuing some parts. i cant wait to see whats next out of the door at agd.

on a side note, coolhand could resurect the mags also with one design :D

[tonybhall]

Hey Guys,

I guess I must live on a differant planet than everyone on this board. I live in the B'Ham Al area and play mostly at Paintball Quest. Mag's are making a serious come-back here. They have been the talk of the paintball world that I live in for the past 6 months or so. The field owner shoots and promotes mags heavily. The field team, Phantom Regiment, has several players that shoot Mags. One of Phantom Regiment's 3-Man teams is named for their Mags (Team Mag Daddies). The three of us shoot the new RT Pros and we hold our own with any team with Angels or Timmys just fine. I've never felt out gunned with my RT Pro.

I played a little Rec ball at Quest about a month ago and there were about 50 people playing that day. I counted 10 playing with mags of various types. There was even a brand new X-Mag on the field. I gathered most of the Mag owners together on one team and we dominated play for most of the day. That sure got some people talking.

The fact is, Mags are great markers. There reputation in this area is why I bought mine. Long live the Mag!!!!

Bryan

[Paintcheck200]

Originally posted by AGD


All of our customers own other guns.




Not all of your customer own other guns. Including me, and I'm rather disturbed by the role that AGD has decided to take in the paintball industry. Its clear to me if I was to invest in another marker it would not be a MAG. As much as I've liked your product, I'm not about to invest on a product that is ran by a company with an unclear mission and lack of influence in the industry.

[MaxPowers]

REMEMBER:

[SIZE=3]IN TK WE TRUST

[shartley]

Originally posted by Paintcheck200
Not all of your customer own other guns. Including me, and I'm rather disturbed by the role that AGD has decided to take in the paintball industry. Its clear to me if I was to invest in another marker it would not be a MAG. As much as I've liked your product, I'm not about to invest on a product that is ran by a company with an unclear mission and lack of influence in the industry.
I think folks would consider me one of the most critical members on AO concerning AGD, but I have to disagree with this statement.

AGD is by far not unclear in its mission. It is just that this mission happens to have been slightly altered due to MANY factors. AGD is doing what they feel they need to so they can remain a viable player in the industry. They are not however sticking to their guns (all pun intended) on certain product lines that they feel could be better served with a major overhaul, nor sticking with a product that they feel may be more of a weight on them than they can sustain.

I think your statement shows a lack of understanding on what is actually happening and why. AGD is by far not without a clear mission, you just don’t happen to like the new mission.

And as for not wanting to support a company that may lack “influence in the industry”, I am SO glad everyone does not think that way. I can list company after company (such as mine) that would be out of business simply because some feel we are not an “influence” in the industry. And it is not like AGD is NOT going to support the products that have already been sold, nor are they going to come collect them all because they are not going to be producing them any more.

I think your statement was a bit harsh, and shows a lack of true understanding. I fully support AGD in this move.

[cgrieves]

I find it very weird to see all these people worrying about whether their Emax/XMag will suddenly become "a dinosaur" due to AGDs recent announcements. Why should your marker become any worse just because the product line is changing? Has my X-Mag trigger suddenly become unusable because the line is discontinued? Is it suddenly capped at 10bps? Will all my balls curve away uselessly? No- the marker performs just as well as it did yesterday. Spares will still be available, technical support will still be available, the marker will still shoot beams of paint. If anything, my X-Mag will now become even more exclusive from now on. The only people who are losing out are those who will be too late to acquire one! Just because AGD makes an announcment does not mean "Sell all your shares!"

To me, AGD has always been the marker company that let it's products do the talking and has not involved itself with the hype that surrounds this industry- they let us make up our own minds and our own myths. For that they have always had my admiration, and I will continue to use Airgun Design products until something with better proven performance becomes available.

I would expect to see a radical product from Tom. A trigger is just a device to communicate with some sort of valve to propel a paintball, and there are many ways other than electronics to achieve this- air can be analogous to electricity in the functions it can perform in a "circuit".

My prediction will be a super-light trigger unit that actuates a low pressure air "relay" which in turn activates a brand new high pressure valve design. Starting from scratch with a new valve removes several of the compromises that AGD have had to pursue in order to keep the "old" valve in touch with today's needs. For instance, the Level 10 bolt (which to me has always been a magical and inspired engineering solution), has to retrofit to the existing valve design. With a new valve design AGD will have free reign to design it with better performance- i.e. make it more sensitive to paint and more gas efficient. I have been scratching my head over the last few days with regards to ACE technology, and if it is necessary, I believe there could be a few ways to achieve it mechanically.

I would expect this new deisign to be expensive however- the tooling needed would be complex. As Tom has always said- quality comes at a cost if it is to be readily available.

Despressing times? Far from it- I think these are exciting times!

[11_Mile_TMaster]

I'd like to take a moment to remind people of something:
AGD Said there were 250 E-mags left when they made their announcement.

How long will it take them to move those? I'm going to bet, at least six months. Hopefully, in theory, that's halfway to the point of this new great thing, whatever it is. Because AOers would not be likely to buy the old E-mags if 'oh, in six months, this cool new dealie will be out, I should just wait for that.'

Not saying that AO is the only market Tom caters to.

Anyway, back to my point, here's a good way to check how many '250' e-mags is... Let's put it this way, Toyotaboy said in september... that his e-mag was in the 1900s. And it sounded like he said it was an E-Max style valve...

E-mag's been around what, almost four years?

2000/~4 = ~500 a year, or so?

250. 6 months. :)

That's the end of my rant, take whatever you want out of it.

[fallout11]

I also welcomed this announcment.

AGD has collected their information, made some hard decisions, and decided on a path, and are now moving forward.
Sure, these decisions were hard, but they were NEEDED. And like others, I feel, almost overdue.

Shartley is totally correct, and I also support AGD in this move.


I also would not be surprised to see Tom introduce a seriously revolutionary concept in the next few years, that has absolutely nothing to do with electronics.
Such as a fin-stabilized round and new marker to fire them.
Keep watching.....

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD
One of the big things is the proportion of looks to technology, I still don't have a reasonable assesment of that.


I am probably the wrong one to comment (I'm not representative of the paintball buying market), however I think that one of the reasons that appearance is so important is that performance is about the same across most marker lines. There isn't anything that offers a significant performance improvement. I believe the warp feed did, but MANY people TRULY believe that it did NOT. When you get down to it, what is there to improve on?

[shartley]

Originally posted by hitech
I am probably the wrong one to comment (I'm not representative of the paintball buying market), however I think that one of the reasons that appearance is so important is that performance is about the same across most marker lines. There isn't anything that offers a significant performance improvement. I believe the warp feed did, but MANY people TRULY believe that it did NOT. When you get down to it, what is there to improve on?
I agree with you.

And I think that the only true leap in performance (mind you I am not saying improvement, but LEAP) will come from some other innovative breakthrough. So in many cases it is simply more cost effective for companies to continue tweaking current technology but doing most of the focus on visual appeal.

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD
Admittedly electros are the rage right now for the fire power, but ask yourself, is it the electronics or the resulting trigger that you really want?


That's easy, the resulting trigger. However, there is a lot to that resulting trigger. The two biggest features are the ability to use "pulling" techniques to achieve insane ROFs even buy slow old men like me. ;) Also, the elimination of short stroking. :D

Do the same thing with a different method that did not require a battery and "I" believe it would be a big hit. But it MUST so AT LEAST those two things.

[billmi]

Originally posted by Butterfingers
We also seem to forget AGD makes a very competitive Compressed air system...

Thats all Air America Does and nobody seems to speculate the ending of thier business.


That's not all Air America does - that's all they do in paintball - very different. Much like Technicor (AGD's parent company) they do a number of things not directly related to the sport of paintball.

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by AGD

We are trying to ONE, get rid of the Mag name and connotations and TWO, become more focused on fewer products.
AGD

Hmm...I think I can see the future...just last week I said that the only way AGD would pull out of the "Mag Sucks" image is to change the name.


check it out: http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1305807



:D

[smilestyler]

Originally posted by cgrieves
I find it very weird to see all these people worrying about whether their Emax/XMag will suddenly become "a dinosaur" due to AGDs recent announcements. Why should your marker become any worse just because the product line is changing?

SFL emags have seen upgrades like;ACE, LX, warp breech, X valve, CnC battery cover, and software upgrades. Right now it's great!! But if this is where it ends for this gun, in a few years it will be a rec gun, or a pretty display piece when this technology is ancient.

[deadeye9]

There is only one question:

Is the sale of E/X-Mags profitable (in a net sense)?

If so, then continue their production. Unless you are concerned about retroactive payments for possible patent infringements. This does not preclude the development of a completely redesigned marker (as long as it has a warp breech).

[Gadget]

I think they must be profitable, or they wouldn't have made them in the first place (although I doubt they make much money per marker).

The thing is, although they're selling at the moment, they're not exactly going like hot cakes - and in 6 months time will they sell at all?

There's no guarantee of their continuing saleability.

If it were your money, would you take the risk on spending a big bundle of money to restock the inventory and continue production when:

a) Sales might die out completely at any time, leaving you with $100,000 of inventory which you can only sell one part at a time as spares.

and

b) Continuing to market an electronic marker might leave you open to legal action.

If it were my money I'd be doing exactly what Tom has done. Retire some product lines (particuarly ones that could present a future legal problem), focus on doing a few products well, be careful with my money and look into R&D for future products.

It's the safe route and the one most likely to keep AGD in business in the long term.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Gadget
I think they must be profitable, or they wouldn't have made them in the first place (although I doubt they make much money per marker).

The thing is, although they're selling at the moment, they're not exactly going like hot cakes - and in 6 months time will they sell at all?

There's no guarantee of their continuing saleability.

If it were your money, would you take the risk on spending a big bundle of money to restock the inventory and continue production when:

a) Sales might die out completely at any time, leaving you with $100,000 of inventory which you can only sell one part at a time as spares.

and

b) Continuing to market an electronic marker might leave you open to legal action.

If it were my money I'd be doing exactly what Tom has done. Retire some product lines (particuarly ones that could present a future legal problem), focus on doing a few products well, be careful with my money and look into R&D for future products.

It's the safe route and the one most likely to keep AGD in business in the long term.
This is true but for one thing…. Folks keep acting like AGD is NOT going to make an Electronic Marker. AGD clearly stated that they will be developing a new and improved Electronic Marker. The decision to not sell the e/X-mag can not be placed squarely on the fear that they may incite some sort of legal action when they are being replaced by a NEW e-marker.

Part of that R&D people keep taking about IS for an E-Marker. That goes directly in the face of claims that the E-Mag and X-Mag are being eliminated from the AGD line “because” AGD is afraid that SP will bring legal action on them. If that was truly the main reason, why on earth would AGD be developing a new E-Marker?

[fallout11]

Tom DID NOT say they WOULD be developing a new electronic marker:


Originally posted by AGD
...If the industry issues come under control we will get going on another e-gun. AGD

Translation: IF AND WHEN things get settled, we will think about it.
Sorry to dash your hopes.

[shartley]

Originally posted by fallout11
Tom DID NOT say they WOULD be developing a new electronic marker:



Translation: IF AND WHEN things get settled, we will think about it.
Sorry to dash your hopes.
How about this?

"We will work slowly on a new concept that will eliminate the large battery and charger, incorporate the ULT trigger system and completely new electronics. We don't expect to introduce this marker until 2005 if it makes sense to do so. "

This does not sound like they are stopping their development at all. It also says they don't expect to introduce this marker until 2005 if it makes sense to do so. So what? Are they going to not do ANYTHING until 2005 and then RUSH to develop and produce a new marker?

WOW AGD really ARE GODS! ;)

[fallout11]

Tom's own words, not mine, Shartley.

Sounds like mixed signals.
My quote is more recent (2-29-04) than the one you list (2-27-04).
Perhaps Mr. Kaye changed his mind?

Or more likely, taking a wait and see approach.

[PissedGodzilla]

I just have a simple question. I know that when it comes to TK and the sport, it's not all about profit. Just take how he never patented HPA, he did it for the good of the game, which is more than I can say for SP.

My question is, the Xmag HAS to be making a profit, IT's STILL ON BACKORDER!! what reason, other than AGD not getting caught up with SP would their be to really stop production of a highend marker that still has more demand than supply?

please don't flame me I really would like t know an answer to this one!

[shartley]

Originally posted by fallout11
Tom's own words, not mine, Shartley.

Sounds like mixed signals.
My quote is more recent (2-29-04) than the one you list (2-27-04).
Perhaps Mr. Kaye changed his mind?

Or more likely, taking a wait and see approach.
I think it is both. But they can’t wait and do NOTHING. That does not make sense.

I think too many contradictory statements have been made for anyone to think one way or the other and state it as fact. And I think they did this on purpose. We all know how Tom loves controversy.

Originally posted by PissedGodzilla
I just have a simple question. I know that when it comes to TK and the sport, it's not all about profit. Just take how he never patented HPA, he did it for the good of the game, which is more than I can say for SP.

My question is, the Xmag HAS to be making a profit, IT's STILL ON BACKORDER!! what reason, other than AGD not getting caught up with SP would their be to really stop production of a highend marker that still has more demand than supply?

please don't flame me I really would like t know an answer to this one!
No reason to flame.

How about this? Just because a product is on back order does not mean it is making a profit. All a backorder means is that they have not been able to produce enough markers to fill the orders made. And when supply is SO low, and SO slow, it is not an indication that demand is really that great... just greater than supply.

OR you could think about it this way. Why on earth would they be taking so long filling the orders if there was not some sort of issue involved? And that issue has nothing to do with SP, but the production process and the cost involved for AGD. AGDE even stated that.

So no, just because an item is on backorder it does not mean they are making a profit off of it. It just means they allowed more orders than they have been able to fill. And there is a difference between those two things. Also keep in mind that the number of orders do not indicate profit either. They very well could get orders all day long, yet determine that the cost to fill them is not worth it. And I think THAT is part of the issue as well.

And again, that too has nothing to do with SP.

[Brophog]

I'm thinking we need to have an AO business class......;)

[Enigma4you]

Im stillnew to this sport, 2 years playing. I know a few things but anyone that knows me will also tell you that Iwill bug you to death asking stupid questions, Just ask Tuna who im sure regrets ever giving me his contact info, or Jon at AGD.

So this is my stupid question for today. If Mags have a bad name why is it that they are the second best selling gun at our store? Its true that they dont sell to the new player who wants all the bells and whistles but those same people come in a few moths later and ask if we have any Mags. 3 or 4 times a week I get what I have come to call a Mag in a bag. I put it together for the customer fix anything that needs fixing and out the door it goes.

Whats the reason we sell more used mags than new ones? Price! we all know that a used mag is as good as a new one,a few bucks for some orings and abit of time setting thing up right and a 5 year old gun is as good as new.

So I thank Tom for making a product that works. I have all t he faith in the world in AGD and in any product that they come out with. I was very fortunate, I got to meet and talk with Tom for a few minutes at AOSE2 in those few minutes I saw a person who is very proud of what he made. I also saw a personwhodid not stop at one great thing but has constantly produced great things and has ideas for even greater things.

Tom and the others at AGD have had a huge part to play in making paintball what it is, In many ways these guys have set the standard for the other companys to follow and they keep setting the standard higher.

I shoot a Mag by Choice, no one forced me to. I had to sell my Mag not to long ago, I played CFOA last weekend with CPhilips Son, my biggest worry was not if we were going to win or loose but where I could get a Mag to shoot.

Tom, Good luck in whatever you come out with, I know from your past products that whatever the future holds in new products from AGD will make the paintball world pause and take notice.

[Paintcheck200]

Originally posted by shartley

I think folks would consider me one of the most critical members on AO concerning AGD, but I have to disagree with this statement.

AGD is by far not unclear in its mission. It is just that this mission happens to have been slightly altered due to MANY factors. AGD is doing what they feel they need to so they can remain a viable player in the industry. They are not however sticking to their guns (all pun intended) on certain product lines that they feel could be better served with a major overhaul, nor sticking with a product that they feel may be more of a weight on them than they can sustain.

I think your statement shows a lack of understanding on what is actually happening and why. AGD is by far not without a clear mission, you just don’t happen to like the new mission.

And as for not wanting to support a company that may lack “influence in the industry”, I am SO glad everyone does not think that way. I can list company after company (such as mine) that would be out of business simply because some feel we are not an “influence” in the industry. And it is not like AGD is NOT going to support the products that have already been sold, nor are they going to come collect them all because they are not going to be producing them any more.

I think your statement was a bit harsh, and shows a lack of true understanding. I fully support AGD in this move.

Lets Not forget that was just my opinion. I know many others who feel the same way about AGD wether it is right or wrong is not really not even relevent. For any company to be successful they need to reflect a good image. This does not mean just to existing customers, but all potential customers as a whole. Maybe I'm wrong and hope I am, maybe AGD has something massive up their sleve.

As far as being unclear about its mission, I went to their site www.airgun.com and their only thing close to a mission statement that I could find was here http://www.airgun.com/about.shtml

Wow em I impressed.
:rolleyes:

I've been away from these forums for a while, so maybe I'm missing out on a lot of info or something, but like I said - just an opinion.

[GT]

Originally posted by cphilip
These are people that have owned them all. People willing to admit its not the electronics that make them shoot faster. Nor the need to shoot fast that makes them good players. I can see a trend from a percentage of older more experienced players to that end.


I have owned everything! by far my favorite trouble free gun(s) are my mag(s). My big debate right now is to purchase the remaining x mag or build a custom RTP. I maynot be able to bounce 20 bps( put the bs aside guys you know there is no way you actually walk 20bps) with a mech, but I sure as hell can get an easy 12-15. all I need is 1/8 of a second to snap out of a bunker and our timmy/trix/puls/shocker toting "laner" has paint driping from his goggles...

[NoForts4Me]

Originally posted by gtrsi
put the bs aside guys you know there is no way you actually walk 20bps

EGAD! LIES! Don't tell people that...you know some of the Pros and players on the message boards can pull 30+. Some players can also hit a 12"x12" target at 100 yards 20 out of 20. Don't pass on unfounded myths like that! ;)

[f3rr3+]

thats so five minutes ago we all know that agd is going to start making intergalactic travel devices that can fit in your breast pocket :rolleyes:

[Wrathchild]

If you want to gossip, take your sorry asses back to PBN. I dont even want to bother with you imbeciles. Why would Tom Kaye put himself out of buisiness? Obviously he has something up his sleeve, so until then dont post anymore... And for those of you with no faith in AGD, please do us loyal people a favor and either jump off of a large bridge or go to pbn.