AGD new marker rumor

[lamby]

I was told by a source that there is a prototype AGD marker out there that he was able to shoot (this person has some power in PB, but is not affiliated to AGD)

Thsi new prototype is purely mechanical and uses a pnumatic 3-way to power a small ram that activates the sear. The RT effect pushes the ram back and recocks the gun. The person who shot this said it was the best feeling "micro-switch" ever before he was show that there were no electronics inside the gun.

I do not know if AGD has anything to do with this, or if this is an upgrade from 3rd party suppliers. But what I was told is that it is sweet and rips along the lines of a emag with 1.37 software.

Just to add more fuel to the AO rumor mill

Tom, any insite on this?

[rkjunior303]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125891

[Cryer]

I've heard of Nicad (Colin of Deadlywind) doing something similar to that. Sounds interesting to say the least

[mcveighr]

He's never going to get any thing done with all these threads.

[Gadget]

Sounds a lot like nicad's pet project.....last we heard of that was this post from him on Christmas eve:


What iv done is developed a hybrid 3-way specifically for this application and yes it is 2oz pull weight and ~.004" travel (thats 0.1mm). Most electro triggers, even some "tuned" ones, have a longer/harder pull. When you say "rip".. you mean shoot fast? cause it does.. and with little effort. I can "two-finger-tap" the trigger up to around 14-15bps.

I havent been saying too much about the project due to some protection processes and some coming work that ill be doing with some companies with it in the near future... and im not just blowing smoke here either.

A Tom + Colin joint effort mech with electro-feel pull + sexy deadlywind body? Oh we can but hope! :)

....but everyone keep it vewwy vewwy qwiet or SP will patent it before it hits the market :eek:

[lamby]

this might be the same thing. If it is, he was showing it off and my source was able to play with it. If not, it sounds alot alike

[Crimson_Turkey]

Thats me too. Colin and I have different ways of creating a valve that is better than most elelctro's trigger pulls.

Mine will come stock on a gun of my design called that I have dubbed the phoenix. Im hoping to be in production in 6-8 weeks.

[Jack & Coke]

Gadget, thanks for reminding us of that quote from nicad!



What iv done is developed a hybrid 3-way specifically for this application and yes it is 2oz pull weight and ~.004" travel (thats 0.1mm). Most electro triggers, even some "tuned" ones, have a longer/harder pull. When you say "rip".. you mean shoot fast? cause it does.. and with little effort. I can "two-finger-tap" the trigger up to around 14-15bps.

I havent been saying too much about the project due to some protection processes and some coming work that ill be doing with some companies with it in the near future... and im not just blowing smoke here either.

[sneakyhacker420]

AGD isnt making one right now, or atleast any of us know of

but as far as the pneumatic ones go, Nicad from Deadlywind has made a pneumatic mag, and so has Punisher Customs - and the guy who did the home-brew e-mag conversion


but right now, we can only hope that AGD is going to make something similar to them :)

[edweird]

I've seen colins... its hella nice.

[Automaggin2]

Sooooo many threads on AGD's phantom gun. I Highly doubt they are developing any new gun, especially since AKA just went down and since SP will probably move on to fight other companies. If AGD was developing a new gun, I think Tom would have hinted us about it by now.



Soooo........I highly doubt AGD will develop a new gun anytime soon. They may come up with custom mags, like the Tac One, but no completly new design.

[edweird]

AGD does not have to make a "all new gun" all they need to worry about is catching the frame up to the current potential of the Xvalve + ULT

Hence why the Emag line is going out of production... its simply old tech that fails to match the uberness that is the Xvalve + ULT.

Once the frame is recreated in the light of current tech the only changes I see in the future are more sluggo bodies with possible split beam ACE holes bored up the sides.

[Glickman]

hybrid cockermag sounds like... ive only seen homemade ones, but they are sweet

I wanna give AGD and Tom credit for not trying to merge into the usual electro style, theres so many imitations out there, but how many imitation emags or mags do you see? ;)

[Ov3rmind]

Mags with pneumatic triggers are the future for AGD, mark my words.

[nippinout]

TK says that his idea is better than Nicad's.

[Ov3rmind]

Originally posted by nippinout
TK says that his idea is better than Nicad's.
We'll see.

I think it's absolutely vital that they get a pneumatic trigger out quick though. You're going to need an outlet for the people in the market for an E-Mag (could lose many customers to other electro guns), and this could do it.

[nicad]

Yes, Deadlywind (me, specifically) made a mechanical trigger which feels like or better than an electro (as some of you have experienced). Because of its potential, I have been trying not to talk about it until its protected, ready to go, etc..
I am working with a company for protection and manufacturing capabilities. Not AGD, but one that is close and friendly with AGD.
At one time Tom was interested in my trigger setup, but he has since announced that he has a better trigger design. If it is indeed better, which he claims it is, then AGD has moved up a notch in my respect book for making one better than mine. :)

I'm very currious about how he has accomplished this. Cant wait to see a final product.

out!

[spantol]

Very interesting, particularly in light of recent news. I suppose it's too early to ask about timeframes, huh? :)


Originally posted by nicad

I am working with a company for protection and manufacturing capabilities. Not AGD, but one that is close and friendly with AGD.

[Cryer]

Originally posted by spantol
Very interesting, particularly in light of recent news. I suppose it's too early to ask about timeframes, huh? :)


Or pricing... I might decide to do this instead of a hypermag. That way, I can get everything thru you Colin;)

[Barfly]

TK said something along the line of this "What do you like about electros? is it the electronics or the trigger?"
I can't waite till AGD's new idea comes out and I can buy it.

[nippinout]

TK said something along the lines of not being safe with the present frame.

I am assuming he wants to use the incoming air from the tank with some super tiny small bore ram.

[50 cal]

Tom will be "The Man" if he pulls this one off. We can hope that he tells SP to stick it when he gets electro performance from a non electro gun.

[chizle97]

Do I smell possible cross company WGP-AGD product. That would be totaly awsome. i guess. But nicad rules too. anyone who can make a mag look like an angel rules:D

[Digits]

Originally posted by nicad
Yes, Deadlywind (me, specifically) made a mechanical trigger which feels like or better than an electro (as some of you have experienced). Because of its potential, I have been trying not to talk about it until its protected, ready to go, etc..
I am working with a company for protection and manufacturing capabilities. Not AGD, but one that is close and friendly with AGD.
At one time Tom was interested in my trigger setup, but he has since announced that he has a better trigger design. If it is indeed better, which he claims it is, then AGD has moved up a notch in my respect book for making one better than mine. :)

I'm very currious about how he has accomplished this. Cant wait to see a final product.

out!

Your my idol..

Homie

[$tevo]

awesome, im in the market of a new gun. i have time to save up until this beast comes out, im excited..

[Cryer]

definately on my list of things I want. Along with a Harrier Jet... but the Harrier is a little higher on the list (understandably)...

[Mossman]

All of you ignoramuses blabbering about how the only way mags will have good pulls is with an overly complicated pneumatic system need to shoot a well tuned X-valve with ULT.

Maybe something like that would use less air and at lower pressure to activate the on/off, thus giving the mag more shots per pull, but I have not experienced any pull better than the pull on my ULT'ed Xvalve'd Logic'ed mag :) It's to die for and fun to shoot...to boot.

[logamus]

Originally posted by Cryer
definately on my list of things I want. Along with a Harrier Jet... but the Harrier is a little higher on the list (understandably)...

that certainly ranks high on my odd obsession list man. :)

[cockermongol]

Originally posted by Ov3rmind
Mags with pneumatic triggers are the future for AGD, mark my words.
Yep, yep, yep.

[Corbet]

all these posts make me want to see a mech mag with the feel of a electro now now now! even though I couldnt afford it it would be awesome to see.

[arsonpaintball06]

cant wait till we get a post from TK tellin us that AGD has sumthin new brewin.....we will have to all sit in suspense i guess

[vf-xx]

Originally posted by Mossman
All of you ignoramuses blabbering about how the only way mags will have good pulls is with an overly complicated pneumatic system need to shoot a well tuned X-valve with ULT.

Maybe something like that would use less air and at lower pressure to activate the on/off, thus giving the mag more shots per pull, but I have not experienced any pull better than the pull on my ULT'ed Xvalve'd Logic'ed mag :) It's to die for and fun to shoot...to boot.

I know the feeling. I have a ULT in my RTP and It's just as good as my Emag without the weight.

[nicad]

Originally posted by Mossman
All of you ignoramuses blabbering about how the only way mags will have good pulls is with an overly complicated pneumatic system need to shoot a well tuned X-valve with ULT.
I usually don't reply to things like this... but... I couldn't resist.
ignoramuses?
blabbering?
:rolleyes:

"shoot a well tuned X-valve with ULT."
lets compaire the two.
wait.
there is no comparison.

have you seen or shot my "overly complicated pneumatic system"?



exactly.

out!

[Mossman]

Originally posted by nicad

I usually don't reply to things like this... but... I couldn't resist.
ignoramuses?
blabbering?
:rolleyes:

"shoot a well tuned X-valve with ULT."
lets compaire the two.
wait.
there is no comparison.

have you seen or shot my "overly complicated pneumatic system"?



exactly.

out!

Nicad I've never dissed your system :) I'd never diss any of your work. blabbering is a word. So is ignoramus but it's probably not spelled that way :)

I wasn't bad mouthing the pneumatic trigger, I was bad mouthing the same people who were raving about ULT 3 months ago saying that mag triggers suck today

No matter how nice your system is I doubt I can shoot it noticably faster than my gun. I can shoot great electro triggers 16-17bps (according to the board) and I can probably shoot my ULT 15. it's a negligable difference.

Once again nicad, don't get my wrong, if you sold your system I'm sure I'd buy it but AO is the biggest bunch of hypocritical zealots ever who take back what they said 3 months ago all the time because the trends are different. What is this the timmy owner's group :p

[Mossman]

last thing nicad...my responses weren't just to posts in this thread but in posts all over. I don't know how your trigger feels and i don't know how simple or complicated it is. The fact of that matter is that I think AGD has a great product out now, and the people saying that AGD absolutely needs a pnuematic trigger system to catch up haven't shot your thing yet either. Most of them are probably thinking of the cocker-mag clone pun made which I'm sure shoots nothing like a nice ULT with just a hint of reactiveness :)

Cheers mate, Whether you like me or not, this blabbering ignoramus will run his slow butt to the front of the line to buy your trigger system once it's unveiled if it looks as cool as you're making it seem. It might not be necessary but I'm a sucker for coolness :D

[nicad]

no worries..
now back to the rumor mill! :p

[edweird]

colin to beat anyone to a bloody pulp when you mention warp sluggos :P


/runs like hell

[AGD]

I really like Nicad's trigger and yes we are interested in it. I have a different approach that doesn't need the LPR so all things being equal I would rather not add another reg.

The big issue with a light weight mech trigger is not the trigger. The problem is that all the electros get their incredible firing rates from switch bounce, not finger pulls. My opinion is that an incredible mech trigger would still be blown off because it couldn't put out the paint like a cheater board.

If tournament rules would really stick to one shot per pull.... Oh Baby it would be an new day!

AGD

[lamby]

this is not entirely true.

You can get a an insane rate of fire from having a trigger that is so light with such little movement causes the recoil to make it fire again. I can do this with the e-class with no problem, because 1: the e-class trigger is the shiznit (good for the cocker) and 2: there is more recoil on a cocker than an e-mag (good for the e-mag)

If I lightly pull the trigger on the cocker with my tpul and trel both set to 4 the marker reactive, but capable of only shooting one ball when I want to. It will never fire twice if there is no gas on it so the trigger is not bouncing at all. Since the e-frame uses photo interupters there is no "bounce" but I can get the trigger down to almost no travel to fire and release. causing insane fire when you include recoil.

I like the e-triggers for one reason only pull tension and travel. you make a manual like that that is easy to adjust for my liking and easy to service I would be interested. but it would have to be as cheap or cheaper than the electro versions

[Rope a Dope]

There are two kinds of bounce.

1. Comes from the noise on a microswitch. With a microswitch it is never on and then off when it breaks the circuit. It is more like on-on-on-off-on-off-on-off-off-off. That in between noise gets counted as a shot by the board, and new boards like WAS boards will buffer that as a pull. Keep doing that when you walk the trigger and you'll hit a consistent 20+bps until you stop pulling the trigger. So you pull it 10 times a second and you'll get an extra 5 or 6 registered pulls on the board.

Optical triggers took care of that "problem" (depending on how ya look at it), but then comes the other kind of bounce.

2. Like described in the post above is actually bouncing it. Tiny trigger pull and the recoil of the gun and the trigger bounces. E-Blades are notorious for this. Cockers don't really have a hard recoil, it sorta rocks back and forth, hold your finger just right and it will rock back and forth into full auto.

I'm used to pulling the trigger FAST on my E-Mag, but when I pick up a WAS'd Viking... whew.. gotta admit I get a thrill from it :)

So Tom... next electro, "kick an old school" and put in a cheap $2 microswitch instead of your highly superior HES trigger and what not, market wants the bounce... give the market bounce. With companies like SP always getting their way, why hold onto morals?

[Ityl]

My brother has told me that, atleast in NPPL, the refs are chronoing the markers and if it bounces you have to play without a gun. They are tuning all the guns so there is no chance of a bounce, which is hard with a cocker eblade that has all the moving parts/weight.

I don't get how this bounce is even allowed. The Shocker Turbo was made illegal in tournies years ago and all this debounce is is an adjustable form of it. I shot a NYX Matrix a couple weeks ago and could barely get it to only fire one ball. I think it's ridiculous that it has come this far. Hence, one of the many reasons I don't play paintball anymore.

[FlashTX]

:eek: All this techy stuff just gave me a headache...neato info, but confusing as all get out (did I just say that? I've been in Texas WAY too long).

Anyways...I play scenario games and tournies...I need a paintball gun that can take a beating, shoot as fast as all get out (:p ) and still work in the rain or after I dive into a mud puddle. If AGD can PLEASE make a pure pnuematic gun capable of keeping up with those crazy "machine guns"...I know a team that'd be ALL OVER them! :cool:

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by AGD


I really like Nicad's trigger and yes we are interested in it...



:)http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif


Originally posted by AGD


...I have a different approach that doesn't need the LPR so all things being equal I would rather not add another reg...



:)http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif



Originally posted by AGD


The big issue with a light weight mech trigger is not the trigger. The problem is that all the electros get their incredible firing rates from switch bounce, not finger pulls. My opinion is that an incredible mech trigger would still be blown off because it couldn't put out the paint like a cheater board.



:mad:http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon13.gifhttp://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon13.gif



Originally posted by AGD


If tournament rules would really stick to one shot per pull.... Oh Baby it would be an new day!

AGD

http://www.insaneabode.com/Articles/Images/nerd4.jpg

[trains are bad]

I'm happy with how fast Mech mags are now.

[LudavicoSoldier]

When exactly did the one shot per pull rule go extinct? Or is it still a rule, but not enforced, due to tourny ball being sponsored by alot of these manufacturers? GAH! Whats the point of having rules if noone enforces them. I mean, we cant choose which laws to obey, they all apply, all the time. Why should rules be any different?

I seriously think that the biggest problem in paintball is not Smart Parts (as much as we like to rail on them), but a complete lack (or want) of any sort of rules, because obviously rules are not for "winners". I can't stand that Bob Long is using WAS boards in his guns, when they have been proven to be cheater boards. Tourny organizers need to step up to the plate and lay the smackdown. LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD!

/end rant


edit: Absolute power corrupts absolutely

[Jack & Coke]

I've seen WAS'd Angels with a special on/off switch where instead of on/off positions, it's on/off/cheat(debounce 1).

My friend has one, when the guy plays, the switch is in the cheater mode (debounce 1), when he gets checked, he secretely flicks the switch over to standard "on" position. The ref can work the trigger anyway he wants, the gun won't bounce.

With cheater mode on, he can slowly walk his fingers, and the gun just rips 20+bps! It's so obvious, it's actually kinda funny to watch. Kinda like those pedestrian conveyor walkways in the airport. You see poeple walking, but they're moving from point A to point B twice as fast.

I agree... "Or is it still a rule, but not enforced, due to tourny ball being sponsored by alot of these manufacturers?"

Manufacturers make cheater boards for their top teams, so they can showcase their guns. These are the same guys who have increadible influence over the league and refs. Talk about conflict of interest. The bigger paintball gets, the less integrity they have. You just have to deal with it if you want to play... :(

[Cyberious]

nicad's marker is incredible. I've been trying to get my hands on the prototype for months. If he or AGD come out with something like it I will gladly switch to it.

Actually I am becoming really happy with my TacOne though. I put the ULT in it and can almost walk it.

I think even with the current ULT if you could change the frame or the actual trigger itself a little so that the trigger travel length was shorter it would be much better.

I agree with the earlier poster though. I'm kind of becoming tired of having to look at the weather before I go to play. A marker like nicad's or the one AGD maybe planning that does not use a battery for the trigger that is light and short enough to walk it easily will be a hit. Heck if you want it to bounce back throw a spring or magnet behind it.

It would be interesting though to put a couple of button cells in the foregrip or somewhere to power an ACE eye though. That is the only electronics I really want anymore (but with the lvl10 I can live without it and not lose any sleep) you could easily seal them in the gun to protect them from moisture without increasing the size of the marker.

[LudavicoSoldier]

Are any leagues sponsored by companies who DONT promote TWiBish behavior? It seems that so many of the old school companies who cared about paintball have lost any say in the direction that we are going. Whats with the "old is bad, new is good" mentality these days? We dont have to throw out EVERYTHING that paintball was to make paintball what it is today, or what it will be in the future. It kills me that many of the companies pushing "new hat" paintball are headed by people who once were much loved by the whole paintball community.

The times they are a-changin...

[DK1]

It should be noted, on the "weather" and rain problems with electros.. IIRC, the Viking (or excal, can't remember which one they used) went through a test where they held it fully submerged in water for something like 45 seconds and it kept working... and it was firing the whole time. You'd need to ask Dan Voils (Auctionjunkie) about it, I think he's the one that did it. He'd be able to give you more specific details on what they did...

Just saying, not all electros bite it when wet.

DK1

[Woogie12]

Tom, if you do make that secret mag, and it has no bounce, you will have no problem selling it and making it popular. Market it and keep it at a reasonable price and they will be all over. Not everyone is into cheater boards and bounce. I shoot a speed and can't even find bounce on it no matter how I set it, I don't want it to bounce either. My friend has an e-bladed cocker that he doesn't want to bounce so he strengthened the magnet. Not everyone is into bounce, so don't give up hope.

[Jack & Coke]

Heh heh... looks like we can't use the name "Hybrid" anymore with regards to nicad and AGD's new concept guns:

http://www.forceofnature.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=834&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0




Powerlyte Inc. is proud to announce that we have been granted a United States Trademark (Registration number 2,788,487, issue date December 2, 2003) for the name Hybrid. This is the fourth trademark issued to Powerlyte Inc.

The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office determined that the name Hybrid, relating to the paintball industry, met well-established criteria for issuance of a trademark.
Read more...

This trademark clearly designates the name Hybrid to be used only in accordance with Powerlyte Inc. The trademark covers use of Hybrid as the name of a product or company associated with the paintball industry. All parties interested in or currently using the name Hybrid should contact Powerlyte Inc. for licensing agreements.

About Powerlyte - Powerlyte was founded in 1995, incorporated in 1996 and relocated to North Carolina in 1999. Originally founded as a paintball product manufacturer, Powerlyte’s precision machining and design capability have since established it as a full product design and development house with customers in the Paintball, Firearms, Motorcycle, Medical, Nascar and Aerospace industries. We encourage companies interested in product development ventures to contact us for consultations and quotes.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by AGD

My opinion is that an incredible mech trigger would still be blown off because it couldn't put out the paint like a cheater board.

If tournament rules would really stick to one shot per pull.... Oh Baby it would be an new day!

AGD

You mean like this?

http://www.dougherman.com/richie/DarkAlias.mov

Observe the pace his their finger walking cadence vs. how many times the gun actually shoots... hmmm...:rolleyes:

[Joni]

J&C, thats because of the vid compression. That lowers the fps. It's the same phenomena as old b/w movies where wheels look like they make steps.

[Jack & Coke]

really... I thought about that, but I didn't think it was that bad... :(

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
really... I thought about that, but I didn't think it was that bad... :(

Need a good viewer that will show you how many frames per second are available. THEN we can judge finger speed ...

[Heebs]

"Are any leagues sponsored by companies who DONT promote TWiBish behavior? "

Play pump! The fastest we can shoot is as fast as you can pump it.

Heebs

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by DK1
It should be noted, on the "weather" and rain problems with electros.. IIRC, the Viking (or excal, can't remember which one they used) went through a test where they held it fully submerged in water for something like 45 seconds and it kept working... and it was firing the whole time. You'd need to ask Dan Voils (Auctionjunkie) about it, I think he's the one that did it. He'd be able to give you more specific details on what they did...

Just saying, not all electros bite it when wet.

DK1

was it distilled water?

It wouldent matter if it was because distilled water doesnt have any ions to conduct electricity threfore short the board.

Now ou do that in mucky water you have problems electricity follows the path of least resistance.

[DK1]

Originally posted by Butterfingers


was it distilled water?

It wouldent matter if it was because distilled water doesnt have any ions to conduct electricity threfore short the board.

Now ou do that in mucky water you have problems electricity follows the path of least resistance.

that I do not know, you'd need to contact Dan about it.

DK1