Is hydrogen refills cheaper than CO2?

[GasGuzzler309]

Is hydrogen refills cheaper than CO2? I've heard rumors. I want to buy a hydrogen tank but Im pretty cheap and want to know how much the refills are. Thanks

[Lord_Whoopass]

You mean HPA right? yeah mine are alot cheaper... and its a huge improvement over CO2... much much more consistant...

[USAF-Flyboy with a Mag]

hydrogen? I think you are mixing it up with nitrogen. Just fyi hydrogen is VERY flamable, so not a good idea. Just ask the late crew of the Hidenburg.

[Skoad]

cheaper? generally they are equal or cost more for a fill.

[cphilip]

To answer your question... No... Hydrogen fills are MUCH more expensive.

And dangerous as has been stated.

Nitrogen is a bit more expensive than High Pressure Air most times. But both will work.

Some places CO2 is getting almost as high as High pressure air to get a fill. But its more dense and last longer per fill per volume. Since its in a liquid form it fits more Gas in a smaller area. But its more and more becoming a Dinosaur.

[speedyejl]

Originally posted by cphilip


Some places CO2 is getting almost as high as High pressure air to get a fill. But its more dense and last longer per fill per volume. Since its in a liquid form it fits more Gas in a smaller area. But its more and more becoming a Dinosaur.

All my local feilds have free air but Co2 usually goes for $4 a fill with the first included in entrance. While the general consensus odly is that HPA is more expensive I've NEVER seen or heard a specific example of that in practice.

Anyhow bottom line for feild owners HPA has a high start up cost but essentially just turns into the price of running a compressor for a few hours to fill a cascading tank system vs constant refills for bulk Co2 tanks.

[argnot]

Are we talking shot for shot or bottle to bottle. A 20 at the field I go to is 4 bucks and nitro is 1 buck per 1000 pounds. I can't wait to go with my 114/3000

[tyrion2323]

Geez - At HeadRush fills all day are free, either way.

[Brophog]

Exactly. How many more shots will that 20 oz give you than the standard 4500 HPA tank....

As far as that compressor over time logic, think of this:

A 50 lb CO2 cylinder, after an intial 100-200 in cost, is about $20 to fill.

Most HPA compressors, without any kind of booster, will run anywhere from $3000-6000 or more, depending.

[Hexis]

One very distinct advantage that HPA/N2 has over CO2 is that you can do a partial fill. With CO2, you have to empty the tank and in addition use more CO2 to chill the tank to get a good fill. So there is some, perhaps a lot of waste filling CO2. There is little or no waste when filling HPA/N2.

A few data points:

A local indoor field here in MN has HPA included with your field fee, CO2 filsl are $5. This is obvioulsy my favorite. :)

A different local field has a scale for CO2, up to $5. HPA is $2 per 1k, and higher for over 3k (one of the reasons I don't play there).

At Paintball Sam's (I'm there for the big games) CO2 scales up to $5 for a 20oz. HPA fills are $1 per 1k, but they round down a lot.

[cphilip]

Least I need to point out that nothing is ever free....

Somewhere somehow you pay for that fill. Wether it be in the paint mark up or the field fee or whatever... You pay for it.

[Crighton]

Originally posted by Brophog
A 50 lb CO2 cylinder, after an intial 100-200 in cost, is about $20 to fill.

I get 50lb bulk fills for 11 bucks. The 50lb costs $2.35 a month for rental.

Much cheaper than HPA. Thats probably the only reasons its still in use as much as it is today. It's cost effective.

[akscubainst]

Here in Alaska I pay $65.00 plus $7.50 a month for rental for a 50lb CO2 that is usually more like 40lbs. I charge $.35 per ounce but use a flat rate for the fill(see below).

I'm a dive shop so Compressed air is inexpensive. I charge $2.00 for a HPA fill up to 3800 psi. I won't stress my compressor by going any higher.


Here's something interesting:

You know those fishing scales that everyone uses for weighing CO2 fills. They say right on them "NOT LEGAL FOR TRADE". My friend who is a weights and measures inspector threatened to ticket me for using one for trade.

He said all he need was one phone call from a customer complaing about it and we'd be ticketed.

The work around is to sell fills as a unit rather than by the oz. So instead of selling my customer 20oz of CO2 I sell them a co2 "fill" it just cost you $7.00 to get your 20oz filled. The scale is then just for my reference.

I'm not sure how other states work but I'm sure it's similar.

Dave

[Brophog]

If you use any scale NOT specifically tested by the weights and measures department, with the certificate to prove it in your particular state, then you could be liable. This goes for any number of industries, and any number of scales.

Usually this is a regular testing, whether it be annually or some other periodic testing.

[argnot]

I went to my local field and I have a 20oz with on/off and the kid that filled my tank unscrewed it without closing the on/off so he had to fill it again. My tank weighted twice as much as it normally does full and took about 1and 1/2 hours to defrost (the outside) in a heated area. And he used a scale. Messed up I think he over filled it. akscubainst you charge people $7 a fill? I feel lucky to pay $4.

[akscubainst]

Yes, And I think over the long haul, I just about break even. Because of waste, chilling etc. My competition, charges $10.00 or .50 an ounce.

[Halliday]

Originally posted by USAF-Flyboy with a Mag
hydrogen? I think you are mixing it up with nitrogen. Just fyi hydrogen is VERY flamable, so not a good idea. Just ask the late crew of the Hidenburg.

My gosh that is a good one! Wow. You made my day :)

At my field we don't charge for co2 or HPA. $5 field fee for owners.

[akscubainst]

You guys gotta understand, I live in a place you can't drive to.

All of our stuff either is barged in from Seattle or flown in on Alaska Airlines. If you want to leave you can fly out or take a ferry 6 hours north to the middle of nowhere and drive at least 3 days to Seattle or take the ferry south for 3 days to Bellingham, WA.

I'm working on getting bulk CO2 from Seattle at a better price but still have barge fees, etc.

Dave

[trains are bad]

Much cheaper than HPA. Thats probably the only reasons its still in use as much as it is today. It's cost effective.

Ya dude nothing like going to the basement to top off. I have a bigass tank I bought at a farm auction (it was an O2 tank but they let me swap)I get filled for $20. I figured it up to something around $.25 to fill a 20oz tank.

I chill my tanks in the freezer so i don't waste CO2 sooling them.

[Crighton]

Originally posted by trains are bad

I chill my tanks in the freezer so i don't waste CO2 sooling them.

Same here except mines in the garage. To much of a PITA to haul it up and down the stairs for rec games. Using the freezer works great as long as you have the time to waste.

[trains are bad]

My (parents') house is on a slope with a ground level door. I can back right up to the door. ;)

And the garage is unheated which sucks in the winter. The only thing is I don't have good way to chain it to the wall so I take my fill station off and cap it every time right now which gets to be a pain.

[Lohman446]

The thing I see most field owners miss in paintball is the value of their labor. Frankly if I were doing it (good thing Im not cause I would be out of business) CO2 fills would be $5 + CO2... its a pain to do, it takes too much precision...

Look at it this way, HPA fill - click, push button, watch guage, unlick, hand over (BTW the ways its done, very very wrong, very very dangerous but a whole nother discussion).

CO2 - play wiht valve, freeze hands, weigh tank PITA. Sorry, I would push towards HPA all day. I suppose thats why Colors has HPA on all their rentals.

Yeh I realize the high cost of HPA in the first place, but what serious field does not have it anymore? Its almost a must. CO2 needs to be fazed out (Im so gonna get flamed) for everything but off field uses. Thats my opinion, often wrong, seldom unstated.

[akscubainst]

No flame here! I'm with you. CO2 is a real pain to mess with. I own a Scuba shop so HPA is dirt cheap. If you figure that diving is paying for my $14,000 compressor.

Dave

[Crighton]

I don't think anyones going to flame you over your opinion. But I also don't see CO2 going away completely till a couple things happen. As it is right now HPA requires a much larger out lay of cash up front than CO2. If you want to do self fills HPA also costs a heck of alot more AND you get less fills from a scuba cylinder vs a 50lb bulk tank. HPA tanks usually require more TLC than a CO2 cylinder.

[trains are bad]

(BTW the ways its done, very very wrong, very very dangerous but a whole nother discussion).

Please start it! I'm interested!



CO2 needs to be fazed out (Im so gonna get flamed) for everything but off field uses. Thats my opinion, often wrong, seldom unstated.

No flames, but saying you think it should be phased out because it's not convenient for YOU is kind of short sighted. Think about it... I'm not giving up my nice little 16oz catalina cylinder that gets me >1000 shots and costs $.20 for me to fill anywhere I can drive my truck to........



...for a big expensive fiber wrapped 4500psi tank I have to drive 50 miles and pay to get filled. How much tinkering can I do like that? I remember before I did my own fills...my tanks were always empty.

There's another thing... tank(S). I can buy like 5 CO2 tanks of different sizes for the price of one HPA tank for one marker.

Realize I do run regulators and that's expensive in itself, I realize...I'm not some yahoo that runs straight up unregged CO2.

But I won't be running HPA anytime soon.

[skife]

CO2 - play wiht valve, freeze hands, weigh tank PITA. Sorry, I would push towards HPA all day. I suppose thats why Colors has HPA on all their rentals.


I love how colors is. Free HPA fills and charge you for CO2

luckly i use HPA :)

[Jesse-man]

about a 30 mile radius around me nitrogen is $2 and co2 is $5.50 because around me it cost more money for co2 fills for big tanks

[Evil Bob]

The short of it:

1) CO2 owns HPA in initial equipment costs, you can buy several CO2 systems for the cost of a single HPA system.
2) HPA owns CO2 in the re-occuring refil costs, you can fill several 3k scuba cylinders for the cost of a single CO2 50 pound bulk tank fill.
3) CO2 will give you more tank capacity fills per bulk cylinder then HPA will, but you will get more shots out of a "at capacity" HPA fill then you will out of a CO2 fill.

The long of it:

I have two 3300 psi scuba cylinders I paid $100 each (both used, new are typically $150-$200) and a $50 valve with gage for filling my marker mounted HPA system, my total initial refil investment is $250. My HPA system for my marker ran me $400, so my total in to use HPA on my marker is $650. Keep in mind that there will be a yearly visual inspection fees (price varies depending upon the shop you take your cylinders too) and hydro fees when the cylinder is out of date. Your HPA tank on your marker will also need a few hydro tests in its lifetime as well, which will up your overall cost of ownership.

CO2 ownership, hardwarewise, it initially much lower, the marker tanks are much cheaper, you can buy several for the cost of a single HPA sytem. The bulk tank source will typically run you $8-$10 month for a 50 pound cylinder, re-filling it will range from $10-$30 depending upon the vendor and whether or not you buy bulk on a regular basis. CO2's low initial cost is made up by it's higher refil cost per cylinder, this is where HPA owns CO2.

My Filling Costs: I'm PADI certified so I don't pay to have my cylinders filled, I just show up with them at the dive shop, flash my card, and they fill them for free. The guys who aren't dive certified pay a whopping $4 to fill their 3300 psi cylinders.

HPA performs solidly in any temp you will play in, CO2 has issues when the temp gets below 60 degrees. CO2 expansion rate is based upon ambient temperature, the hotter the temp, the faster the expansion rate, HPA has no such restrictions, it expands equally in cold or hot conditions.

Having my own tanks and doing my own fills makes sense for me, it doesn't cost me a dime after the initial equipment costs. Lots of my friends who are not dive certified also use HPA because it is cheaper in the long run and outperforms CO2 in all conditions.

-Evil Bob

[Wes Janson]

There are only three places in my county that fill paintball-related HPA: my field, a store in town, and another indoor field I never go to. My field charges $1/k, and something like $1-4 for C02. The store, which I only visited once, wanted $2/k. Realistically, I think something odd is going on...the field owner confided in my father that they are losing money on every air fill, between equipment cost and insurance. According to him, their insurance for filling HPA to 4500 is very high apparantly, but I never found out specifics. The entire $/k pay scale is rather ridiculous, as it simply means the smaller-sized tank owners end up paying more of the cost for the system than the 88cu players. The most intelligent thing to do seems to be just investing in a dive tank or two.

[Morally0Confused]

my scuba tank i get free fills
so HPA is cheaper for me

hmmm hydrogen doesnt sound bad attach a spark plug to end of barrel - battery running to spark plug - Intelli trigger running to battery
gotta add some intimidation to the game:p

[DeeEight]

Originally posted by Hexis
One very distinct advantage that HPA/N2 has over CO2 is that you can do a partial fill. With CO2, you have to empty the tank and in addition use more CO2 to chill the tank to get a good fill. So there is some, perhaps a lot of waste filling CO2. There is little or no waste when filling HPA/N2.


You can partial fill co2 tanks easily. Just need to learn how fast the co2 flows thru the valve. I've filled hundreds of co2 tanks and I've always known how to partial fill the tank if I wanted to.

As to emptying the tank first, well, most fields do that only because they want to verify the empty tank weight (as different tank manufacturers, materials, valve types and presence of an anti-siphon or not will vary the empty weight). You can easily and quickly chill tanks prior to filling by sticking them in a ice-water filled bucket (or a cooler full of dry ice) next to the fill station. Couple minutes in there will do the job. Al and steel tank walls will conduct down to lower temperatures in a hurry when immersed in water close to freezing temperature.

[trains are bad]

One very distinct advantage that HPA/N2 has over CO2 is that you can do a partial fill. With CO2, you have to empty the tank and in addition use more CO2 to chill the tank to get a good fill. So there is some, perhaps a lot of waste filling CO2. There is little or no waste when filling HPA/N2.

On all my marker tanks I have a sticker with the empty weight, full weight, and anti-siphon position. Before i top the tank off I hang it on the scale by fishing line and say "ok, this one needs x ounces to be full" then I add that many ounces in the normal manner and reweigh. NBD.

[trains are bad]

Look at it this way, HPA fill - click, push button, watch guage, unlick, hand over (BTW the ways its done, very very wrong, very very dangerous but a whole nother discussion).

I still want to discuss this.

[Jt$uper$tar]

someone should design a paintball gun using hydrogen and a lighter on the end of the barrel so it shot like flaming paintballs, but it woudl be very loud

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by trains are bad


I still want to discuss this.

In regards to teh danger of quick fills on HPA tanks

As far as proper way to fill high pressure cylinders, I'll look it up exactly in the morning (not at home now, late night tonight) and post it, you'll see what i mean. Someone with a dive shop though can likely do it easier, will do in AM if noone else does

[Morally0Confused]

would you want to play with the guy shooting flaming paintballs?

hey maybe i can get my scuba filled with helium then use that on my HPA
make the tank lighter! :p