Im Sick of all the talk, i will pay for action!

[hardr0ck68]

if anyone fairly well known and trust worthy in the PB world is willing to orginize (something i hate doing) to do one or more of the 3 following things then i will send a $100 this week and $25 every month after (i hope others will make donations also) to fight Smart Parts

1) run ads in PB mags telling the average player what SP's lawsuits are doing including showing prior art, one of the brothers legal run ins with the patant office, and the harm they cause other businesses (i dont like this so much, i fear the ads will backfire and end up selling more schockers)

2) activly litigate aginst SP and their BS, i know my $$ isnt near enough but i would love to see others support this and maybe make a dam differance

3) support companys like AKA who are activly litigating aginst the Satan Brothers, while i also like ICD and other companys that payed the royaltys i dont like that they caved in (i know its business and what was needed to survive, but i personally believe morals before profit)

[tony3]

I'll organize it....wait, why would I waste me life over such a stupid thing?:o

[paint magnet]

Why? Oh, maybe because Smart Parts has already killed the Emag, Viking, Excalibur and jacked the price on Bushmasters even though they have no right to do so, and have no grounds to justify their patent?

[deathstalker]

IBC!

Smart Parts does not make the E-Mag, Viking, or Excalibur, nor do they set prices on Bushmasters. Smart Parts did not discontinue those products, the manufacturers chose to do so rather than fight SP in court or license from them. What has been the price increase on Bushies, anyway?

I think the fact that no company has been able to successfully defend itself is a pretty good sign that SP has the upper hand.

Light your money on fire. You will get the same result with a lot less effort, headaches, and time.

[Ityl]

Originally posted by paint magnet
even though they have no right to do so, and have no grounds to justify their patent

Actually you are totally wrong here. Smart Parts owns the patent, they have full rights to enforce it. Yes it sucks, but that's how business works, can't fault Smart Parts for making money.

There is one thing that can be done about it, build a better mousetrap. There is already talk about a mechanical marker with a trigger like an electro. Developing this, imo, is the best thing to do.

[InexactMelissa]

I think it's great that you're willing to put your money where your mouth is, but I doubt that you will get anywhere with any of those options.


1) run ads in PB mags telling the average player what SP's lawsuits are doing including showing prior art, one of the brothers legal run ins with the patant office, and the harm they cause other businesses (i dont like this so much, i fear the ads will backfire and end up selling more schockers)

Personally, I think this is exactly what needs to be done: educate the community at large. However, SP also buys lots of big shiny ads in all the magazines, and if they threaten to pull their expensive ads because of an Anti-SP ad, who do you think the publisher will have to listen to?



2) activly litigate aginst SP and their BS, i know my $$ isnt near enough but i would love to see others support this and maybe make a dam differance

Obvious problem here is money, but also, what grounds does John Q Public have to bring suit?




3) support companys like AKA who are activly litigating aginst the Satan Brothers, while i also like ICD and other companys that payed the royaltys i dont like that they caved in (i know its business and what was needed to survive, but i personally believe morals before profit)

Support them how? There was an AKA defense fund set up already, if I'm not mistaken. Besides, it's up to the companies themselves, not us, to make their business decisions.


IMO, if you would like to campaign against SP, print up and give out shirts, stickers, whatnot (there's already some out there). Talk to the kid at your local shop who's asking Mom to buy him a shocker, and everyone else there, for that matter. Unfortunately, though what they are doing is pretty sucky, the average consumer doesn't have much of a voice.

[Rigster_TBB]

Originally posted by deathstalker
IBC!

Smart Parts does not make the E-Mag, Viking, or Excalibur, nor do they set prices on Bushmasters. Smart Parts did not discontinue those products, the manufacturers chose to do so rather than fight SP in court or license from them. What has been the price increase on Bushies, anyway?

I think the fact that no company has been able to successfully defend itself is a pretty good sign that SP has the upper hand.

Light your money on fire. You will get the same result with a lot less effort, headaches, and time.

--------------------------------------------------------
Very well said, I couldn't agree more. But to hardr0ck68, don't really light your money on fire, send it to me. I need some more paint and air... :)
Rigster...

[paint magnet]

Originally posted by deathstalker
IBC!

Smart Parts does not make the E-Mag, Viking, or Excalibur, nor do they set prices on Bushmasters. Smart Parts did not discontinue those products, the manufacturers chose to do so rather than fight SP in court or license from them. What has been the price increase on Bushies, anyway?

I think the fact that no company has been able to successfully defend itself is a pretty good sign that SP has the upper hand.

Light your money on fire. You will get the same result with a lot less effort, headaches, and time.

I said Smart Parts killed the Emag, Viking, and Excalibur. I don't know where you get the part about Smart Parts making them... And yes they did kill them, do you think AGD and AKA would just stop producing their best selling markers for no reason? No, it's because of the Smart Parts lawsuit (or threat of) that they were discontinued.

And the price increase on Bushmasters? A BKO is $359 on PBGear.com. They weren't even that high when they first came out! It wasn't more than a couple months ago that they were below 300!

[tony3]

SP did not "kill" the emag, viking and excal, the manufacters did. AKA killed the viking. Aka could of signed with sp I'm assuming, but it was probably a lot of money and remember aka before the viking and excal? They were doing fine, the viking seemed like a big hassle and they couldn't keep them in stock, I bet aka is in a way glad to be back to the original aka selling regs, lprs and lp gun parts. SP did not "kill" the emag. Yes, sp would of went after agd, couldn't of agd waited until they went after them and signed with them? Yes, but Tom made a smart move. The emag is 4 years old and needs to be revamped so why not take it off the market right now and try to avoid sp? The xmag was not taken off the market because of sp. AGD-E is now the NPS Europe distributor. They got other things to do besides make xmag bodies and deal with the hassle of them. They would of kept making the bodies, but not as first priority. So Tom, knowing the hassle that they are, just took them off the market. Thank you, and good night.

[Matches]

Hopefully once the Federal laws change this year in Australia, it will be legal to import & sell semi-auto markers.
and the best part is that the S.P. patents dont stack to sh_t in this country.
Hopefully AGD or another company will relise this and expand our market.

:D

[paint magnet]

Yes, but if SP was going to go after Emags, they would have gone after Xmags as well.

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

Originally posted by Matches
Hopefully once the Federal laws change this year in Australia, it will be legal to import & sell semi-auto markers.
and the best part is that the S.P. patents dont stack to sh_t in this country.
Hopefully AGD or another company will relise this and expand our market.

:D

yes that would be nice for you

and nobody besides possibly kingman.

And BE will be able to touch SP, so dont waste your money

[cledford]

Originally posted by hardr0ck68
3) support companys like AKA who are activly litigating aginst the Satan Brothers, while i also like ICD and other companys that payed the royaltys i dont like that they caved in (i know its business and what was needed to survive, but i personally believe morals before profit)

AKA rolled over like a, um well the cuss filter would censure me. At least ICD mounted an EFFORT - one that lasted more then a 3 months. And ICD didn't even have scores of owners and well wishers contributing to their legal defense.

AKA would like you to think that you're a special member of their "family" but in the end their family "values" were "$$$$'s" and nothing more. There will be the AKA owners who say AKA stood up to SP by not paying the blood money - but be for real, if they really cared about the "family" why wouldn't they do what needed to be done? The truth is that they've produced something along the lines of 7000 TOTAL markers since the excal and Viking came out. That's over 4 years, which equals roughly 1750 markers per year. They simply rolled over because paintball business is a hobby that augments their real business (Leads Metal Products) and they weren't willing to pay any more for it. Sorry to all the AKA orphans - you get what you paid for, a marker, not a foster family.

-Calvin

[Lethargic]

If you want to get super-duper technical, Smart Parts didn't do anything to anyone. They didn't make anyone stop making markers, because it was an active decision by AGD/AKA/whomever to do so. It's not like smart parts went over and physically halted production, right? The fact that SP came along and litigated everyone couldn't POSSIBLY cause companies to pull their markers out of production!!

Using this same sort of warped logic, the bombs hitting Pearl Harbor weren't dropped by the Japanese planes flying overhead. The fact that the planes might have dropped the bombs is negated by the fact that we cannot prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Therefore IT MUST NOT HAVE HAPPENED!! This is of course rediculous. It is obvious that Japanese planes dropped bombs on Pearl Harbor, even though I cannot go back there and bring you back evidence of the fact.

Claiming that SP is not forcing companies to cease producing markers in absurd. Even if the connection isn't marked by signs, one should be able to perform the logical leap from "SP sues companies for patent infringment" and "Companies begin to halt electric paintball marker production." To deny that this relationship exists is like trying to argue that Microsoft controlling 90+% of the software in computers does not force other companies to bend to their wishes.

I, for one, do not see why so many people are choosing to stand up and say that we should not fight SP's patent because it was legally obtained, or because it is a smart business move. WHO CARES IF IT IS SMART OR LEGAL!?! If it hurts me personally (and it does) then I'm going to stand up against it. I don't bend over to the large gas companies, or the large power comanies, so why would I want to let SP take things over? If GM somehow got a patent on all vehicles with 4 wheels and an electronic ignition, and tried to enforce it, would you let that one roll right over you too? What makes SP any different?Disent is just as much the American way as being greedy, and it is only though dissenting that we keep greed in check.

[GT]

This thread sux!

You want to support the GOOD in pb? Buy AGD!

[UltimatePaintballer]

i say agd should just say they will put a patent on nirto tanks or w/e the heck they started. just to scare sp. not really do it but to say "hey, if you keep this up we will have to paten our nitro dealy. how you going to run your guns, co2? call this whole thing off or we will" and then just never put a patent on it. just scare them a little and make them think about what they did.

if its a bad idea, don't flame me. idk if its a horrible idea or not but i have had that idea for a while.

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

or have agd patent the nitro tank and bring it up only against smartparts (maxflow) and leave the other companies alone.

[Brophog]

Actually you are totally wrong here. Smart Parts owns the patent, they have full rights to enforce it. Yes it sucks, but that's how business works, can't fault Smart Parts for making money.

I agree, if its the case that the patent is legit, which we do not know. While its unethical to let so many people into the market before you decide to challenge something, its not totally illegal, and in the business world, this makes it right.

That's why I've been kind of on the fence here, because there is so much we do not know. There are so many tricky parts to this thing, that I think too many people are letting emotions dictate their actions.

All I want to see, is this patent challenged and either backed up or refuted. After that is done, then we, as mature intellectual adults, can take sides and hash out the ethics and legality of what Smart Parts has done.

Right now though, we have very little information on this patent, all present presidings are closed, and the agreements signed by the respective parties are confidential.

If people really want to blame someone, blame our system. I understand that both the patent office and our judicial system are backlogged, but this issue is pretty cut and dry. Just examine the patent and the prior art and pass down a ruling. Instead of that, we get money involved, with lawyers and mulitiple jurisdictions, all of which cost the taxpayer more and further delay not only this case but others as well.

Unfortunatly, at the rate this is going, this will take a few more years, and we may still not find out if the patent is valid or not. Right now, Smart Parts is able to buy their way due to the fact they have more money and more lawyers than their adversaries. Not only that, but this case is being played out more in the public eye and involving not only the plaintiff and defendent, but an entire industry. This should not happen.

[hardr0ck68]

::SIGH:: I suppose your all correct (well most of you, the ones who justify what SP is doing should take a pickle up the bum). But i would still be willing to pay into any fund that will stand aginst SP...it pisses me off that the Gardner brothers can pull crap like this because the cheaper/easier way out is theirs. So AKA caved to huh, i was even kinda thinkin of a viking i wont buy an electro made from any of the sell out compnays (thats worse than just buyin from SP, when you buy a schocker at least SP has to do something tro get your money....but from ICD and they just get it all gift wrapped and whatnot)

[teufelhunden]

Cry about it, then take a low level job at your favorite fast food resturant. That's about the only place you won't see business practices you don't like.

And the Japan analogy is weak, to say the least. Something better using the same timeframe would've been that Japan forced the US to use atomic warfare. In the same way SP 'forced' AGD to stop production of E/X-Mags, Japan 'forced' the US to develop and use atomic weapons.

[spantol]

Per this (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=124798&highlight=miscue+patent) thread, it'd cost around $11,000 for a third party to initiate a formal re-examination of the patent. I'd kick in a few bucks.

[evan123]

Put the ads in magazines that SP pays much more money for anyway. If i were a paintball magazine owner i will shoot down your offer so fast. Just think how stupid that is. SP probably pays at least 1 grand for there ads in some magaiznes...100 Bucks won't do diddly poop.

[hardr0ck68]

well the hope was that some of the talk on the forurm would be backed up with $$, i am willing to do so myself...but i think the paintball public here likes to talk a good talk...such a shame it is. I was hoping somone would be like hey yeah we should ogrinize and not take it up the butt for a BS pattent but you all seem to like it up the butt hurm...intresting.

[spantol]

There's something that looks a whole lot like the initial stages of organization going on in the "Invalid Patents" thread that I linked to.

Also, a number of people on AO and PBNation have opened their wallets for this cause before, in the form of the AKA Defense Fund.


Originally posted by hardr0ck68
well the hope was that some of the talk on the forurm would be backed up with $$, i am willing to do so myself...but i think the paintball public here likes to talk a good talk...such a shame it is. I was hoping somone would be like hey yeah we should ogrinize and not take it up the butt for a BS pattent but you all seem to like it up the butt hurm...intresting.

[Wes Janson]

It's also legal for the government to screw you over in more ways than there are posts in this forum. Sadly, many legal things are not moral nor acceptable. LEGAL/=MORAL Just because I could legally screw over the life of anyone I wish through ridiculous lawsuits and legal trivialty, does not mean that I nor anyone else has the moral right to do such a thing. The things SP has/is doing, along with the RIAA, MPAA, SCO, and numerous other corporations, are by no means right. Our economy may be based upon capitalism and laisse faire principles, but it was never intended to be a lawless anarchy where might makes right.

[Brophog]

That's true Wes, but the problem still remains that we're flying off the cuff, and what do we really know about the case.

There is so much conjecture and so little fact to base it from. If it is the case that SP owns that patent, and it is legal, then do they not have every right to protect it?

Myself, my gut feeling tells me that the patent would not hold up, but I don't have much more than bits and pieces to judge that on. We really need to let this thing play out, before we start trying to trash a company due to emotions and happenstance.

Even in the case of morality and ethics, what do you have to base those arguments on at this point? I'm not trying to argue a side here, but I'm truly interested in a REAL conversation here. I think for all the jibba-jabba going on in this issue, the facts have been side stepped.

[paint magnet]

Could someone who is perhaps more proficient in law explain to me how SP can bring a suit against a company, when the company (such as ICD, AKA, or AGD) has patents on their own markers?

And even if the courts ruled that companies other than Smart Parts should not have produced electronic markers without their consent, shouldn't the fact that the companies themselves were able to obtain patents on their designs exclude them from any further legal trouble?

[Brophog]

I'm not sure whether or not those companies do have patents under their own name, regardless:

If said companies patent is said to have come after Smart Parts patent and the contents of the patent is covered under Smart Parts patent, then said companies patent is in violation.

That's the REAL question. Who patented what when, and who is in violation. Instead of answering that, we get silly little lawsuits.

[spantol]

Simply put, a patent does not necessarily give you the legal authority to produce the patented product. It's more than a little unintuitive.

In this case, any marker patents AKA might have would pertain to specific ways of accomplishing various processes. The larger process as a whole, however, falls under a previous patent owned by Smart Parts. To continue to produce these infringing markers, they would need to license that previous patent.


Originally posted by paint magnet
Could someone who is perhaps more proficient in law explain to me how SP can bring a suit against a company, when the company (such as ICD, AKA, or AGD) has patents on their own markers?

And even if the courts ruled that companies other than Smart Parts should not have produced electronic markers without their consent, shouldn't the fact that the companies themselves were able to obtain patents on their designs exclude them from any further legal trouble?