What am I supposed to do?!?!

[NJPaint]

A few months ago, I wore a t-shirt to school that said, "Free Palestine" and in small subtext "BoycottIsraeligoods.com". I was told to take the shirt off by the school administration on the grounds that it "Would offend students whose parents worked with Israel in the trade bussiness". I was further told by the principal of the school that anything with a negative tone, anything that said "boycott" would not be allowed. Now, on Earth Day, there were fliers all over the school saying "boycott exxon-mobile". At the assembly for Earth Day (which all students are required to go to... It resembles a nazi rally to me...) one of the Russian Jews at my school who was leading the assembly yelled into the mic "BOYCOTT EXXON MOBILE... EVIL COMPANY...." (the kid has since graduated and is at Harvard right now).

Initially I was pissed because under freedom of speech I should be allowed to wear a shirt with a non-inciting political message (non-aggressive and non-violent). I mean what if someone wore a shirt that said "End the apparheid in South Africa" back when people boycotted South Africa? It seems arbitrary to give a reasoning like that. But now I'm just teed off because a rich jew is allowed to yell into a microphone that Exxon Mobile is an evil company and that everyone should boycott it, and I can't wear in silent protest a shirt that says "Free Palestine".

[/rant]

[f3rr3+]

schools rediculous and i find the best way to balance things out is to be a sphincter to the school at every chance you get (not vandalism) but beat them at there own game and use solid proofs... its fun too

[painTech]

i like how the schools are so conceted,

[Thordic]

I like how Palestine isn't free. Terrorism isn't a way to get your freedom. No one should give in to them.

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by Thordic
I like how Palestine isn't free. Terrorism isn't a way to get your freedom. No one should give in to them.

Yes, because Palestinians = Terrorists :rolleyes:

and this arguement ends here. This isn't about Palestine, this is about censorship in schools and the first ammendment.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by NJPaint
At the assembly for Earth Day (which all students are required to go to... It resembles a nazi rally to me...) one of the Russian Jews at my school who was leading the assembly yelled into the mic "BOYCOTT EXXON MOBILE... EVIL COMPANY...." (the kid has since graduated and is at Harvard right now).


[/rant]

Go to the principal, say that you refuse to support such an idea and refuse to go the assembly, they will offer you an alternative (comp lab time). If they do nto, find a good lawyer.

PS yes I refused two assemblies in class, stating that the idea of the assembly created tension rather than alleviating it.

[Restola]

Originally posted by Thordic
I like how Palestine isn't free. Terrorism isn't a way to get your freedom. No one should give in to them.
Attempted hijack/trolling...

[NJPaint]

heh, won't work, already tried and courts are messy and I'm outta here in 3 months anyways. We have lots of controversial speakers and we are expected to listen to them, I don't think its that unreasonable. Its giving everyone a chance to express their views... unless it goes against the set anti-arab sentiment.

[Archangel Kid]

quick question... why the ......hell.... does it matter if he's Jewish??

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by Archangel Kid
quick question... why the ......hell.... does it matter if he's Jewish??

Because my school's administration has a bias towards Jews. For example, our tennis season is about to start. We are required to be at practice the 2nd week of our spring break. The coach/staff said "if you are going away, don't bother even showing up. Cancell it, or you don't play". Of course every Jew that is going to Israel for the break is excused entirely. (not one for a "religious reason" though that shouldn't play in at all anyways)

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

Check your school rules, but really that seems extremely biased, and it pisses me off when public schools endorse censorship.

[Archangel Kid]

Originally posted by NJPaint

(not one for a "religious reason" though that shouldn't play in at all anyways)

do you mean they're going for no religious reason what so ever? And do you live in Lakewood?

[NJPaint]

I mean that they are going on vacation to israel, mainly to see family. I think that it is rediculous to tell me that I can't see my family in Japan, but allow the Jews to go to Israel. I live in Northern NJ.

[1stdeadeye]

Okay, yelling Boycott XYZ into a mic is speech. However schools are allowed to ban disruptive or obscene clothing. You would probably have been givent the same grief if you wore a dump Bush shirt or Impeach Clinton shirt.

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Okay, yelling Boycott XYZ into a mic is speech. However schools are allowed to ban disruptive or obscene clothing. You would probably have been givent the same grief if you wore a dump Bush shirt or Impeach Clinton shirt.

How exactly is wearing a shirt that says boycott Israel distrptive, or obscene? The Supreme Court said that a shirt with a picture of bush with the words "International Terrorist" is ok to wear in public schools... (case in michigan) I own said shirt. I don't agree with the message, and I would never wear it (bought it for history reasons :)), but it is still freedom of speech and expression, both guarded under the 1st ammendment, symbolic speech recieves the same protection as verbal speech (see Supreme Court case Tinker v. Des Moines School District)

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by NJPaint


How exactly is wearing a shirt that says boycott Israel distrptive, or obscene? The Supreme Court said that a shirt with a picture of bush with the words "International Terrorist" is ok to wear in public schools... (case in michigan) I own said shirt. I don't agree with the message, and I would never wear it (bought it for history reasons :)), but it is still freedom of speech and expression, both guarded under the 1st ammendment, symbolic speech recieves the same protection as verbal speech (see Supreme Court case Tinker v. Des Moines School District)

I understand you are frustrated, but the principle will win this. Thye have very wide latitude in how they run their schools. Remember, school boards do not want problems or waves.

[wimag]

so you pissed at the school or the person who is Jewish for being Jewish.
Be honest now! you sound pretty racist to me.

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by wimag
so you pissed at the school or the person who is Jewish for being Jewish.
Be honest now! you sound pretty racist to me.

This is the biggest insult I have ever recieved on this forum. If you bothered to read this post, or any other that I have made, most of my close friends are Jewish. I stand for Peace with JUSTICE in Israel and Palestine. Nothing more, nothing less. Your comments are unfounded and disgusting.


(if you can't read my post above, maybe you can read this... I am annoyed with my school for a clearly unfair rule based on a clear bias. I am pissed at the school for allowing Brian (kid at the assembly) to yell about exxon mobile, but not allow me to have my t-shirt. And Brian isn't a close friend to me, but we were both editors of the school newspaper when he was here, and we got along extremely well, discussing everything, including the Middle East.)

If you are too lazy to read the posts before you attack forum members, I do not know why you are here except to cause problems.

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


I understand you are frustrated, but the principle will win this. Thye have very wide latitude in how they run their schools. Remember, school boards do not want problems or waves.

I know, it is a private school and there is nothing I can do legally (not that I would want to, courts are messy and I love most parts of my school and don't want to sour my relationship with it.) Needed to vent mainly :(

[wimag]

Originally posted by NJPaint


This is the biggest insult I have ever recieved on this forum. If you bothered to read this post, or any other that I have made, most of my close friends are Jewish. I stand for Peace with JUSTICE in Israel and Palestine. Nothing more, nothing less. Your comments are unfounded and disgusting.


nope sorry i read and re-read your posts just to appease you and my initial comment still stands.
I dont make a point of following your other posts around to see who you are affiliated with, friends wise.

Tell you what. Wear a shirt to school that states something to the effect "Stop suicide bombing in Israel" and then I shall retract my comments and apologize for misjudging you.

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by wimag


nope sorry i read and re-read your posts just to appease you and my initial comment still stands.
I dont make a point of following your other posts around to see who you are affiliated with, friends wise.

Tell you what. Wear a shirt to school that states something to the effect "Stop suicide bombing in Israel" and then I shall retract my comments and apologize for misjudging you.

Who should have the responsibility for cleaning up what the zionists started? The Israelis who get 3 billion a year in welfare from the US taxpayers, or the Palestinians who live under occupation and curfew? If you oppress and perform genocide on a group of people, they are going to be pissed and try to hurt you.

[wimag]

Originally posted by NJPaint


Who should have the responsibility for cleaning up what the zionists started? The Israelis who get 3 billion a year in welfare from the US taxpayers, or the Palestinians who live under occupation and curfew? If you oppress and perform genocide on a group of people, they are going to be pissed and try to hurt you.

yep you pretty much answered my original question. Good job.
Reread your last sentence by the way, if you cant figure it out open a history book.

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by wimag


yep you pretty much answered my original question. Good job.
Reread your last sentence by the way, if you cant figure it out open a history book.

What the heck are you talking about? The jews performed Ethnic cleansing in 1948 to remove the native people from the now Israel Proper. That is documented history. The zionists think it was justified, the arabs don't. I state facts. Do you even know what anti-semitism is??? Its hatred for Samites, which includes palestinians. If you mean hatred of jews, I do not hate jews, most of my close friends are jewish. Please show me where I blamed jews as a race for anything. Quit your whining. Just because people don't agree with you that arabs are evil and Jews are the chosen people doesn't mean that they are anti-semitic.

[NJPaint]

None of your posts make any sense, and you make up ideas of things that you want to see in other people's posts so you can whine about anti-semitism. Good job.

[wimag]

Originally posted by NJPaint


Just because people don't agree with you that arabs are evil and Jews are the chosen people doesn't mean that they are anti-semitic.

I dont recall stating this in any other posts above this. I am pretty sure I did not call anyone evil. Point it out to me, I am interested where you got that interpretation.

[Torbo]

public schools=bull****. Idk about anyone elses, but the admisistration of ours is so damn liberal.....i mean anyone who isnt jumping up and down shouting pro-gay, anti-war slogans gets yelled at. (slight exeration....but very slight)

[deathstalker]

When did schools stop being a place for learning? Reading many of the posts in this thread, I think there are quite a few of you who should pay attention to what your teachers are trying to teach you, rather than making school your personal soapbox.

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by deathstalker
When did schools stop being a place for learning? Reading many of the posts in this thread, I think there are quite a few of you who should pay attention to what your teachers are trying to teach you, rather than making school your personal soapbox.

lol, what fun is that?>

[ShooterJM]

Edited: On second thought, lets be honest here. I just really don't care in the slightest.

[Thordic]

Originally posted by NJPaint


lol, what fun is that?

You are indeed a real-life asshat.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by NJPaint

But now I'm just teed off because a rich jew is allowed to yell into a microphone


You had me until this assinine statment.

I'm sure the school administration took into account the he was "a rich jew" when they allowed him to make his statments. In fact I'd bet the "rich jews" are right now meeting in a secret location and are plotting the take over of your school! Watch out all you poor non-jews! :rolleyes:

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by TheTramp
In fact I'd bet the "rich jews" are right now meeting in a secret location and are plotting the take over of your school!

School?!?! Bah. They've contracted my services to help them take over the world! muhahahahahaha

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by TheTramp



You had me until this assinine statment.

I'm sure the school administration took into account the he was "a rich jew" when they allowed him to make his statments. In fact I'd bet the "rich jews" are right now meeting in a secret location and are plotting the take over of your school! Watch out all you poor non-jews! :rolleyes:

really? Is it that far fetched? Kids are excused from commitments to sports teams to go to Israel, while I am not allowed to visit my family in Japan. And they randomly allowed another kid to yell "boycott exxon mobile", yet claim to be anti- any boycotts. Do I hold anything against Jews or the kid that said that? Of course not, I agree on some level with his message and am fairly decent friends with him. However, I am pissed that he is allowed to excircise freedoms that I am not allowed to.

What exactly is asinine? Your ENTIRE reasoning is based on the fact that I said "Jew" in a non-praising way. I used it to describe a person, who is extremely well off and who is of Jewish decent. Did I EVER fault him for either? No. You are trying to demonize me and anyone else who wants to be treated fairly. And stop making people out to be hatefilled people unless they actually are.

[TheTramp]

Right. You're all about the love. :rolleyes:

[tyrion2323]

NJPaint,

It seems to me that you DO have a problem with the fact that thse people are Jewish. If you didn't, you wouldn't label him as a Jew. Sounds to me like you should just let the whole issue drop.


really? Is it that far fetched?

Yes, yes it is. Believing that there is some Jewish conspiracy is about as retarded as you can get. I'm sorry that you couldn't go to Japan - sounds like a funky situation - but don't blame Jews because your coach is a weirdo.

It's attitudes like that which drove the Jewish people out of Europe and to Israel.

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by tyrion2323
NJPaint,

It seems to me that you DO have a problem with the fact that thse people are Jewish. If you didn't, you wouldn't label him as a Jew. Sounds to me like you should just let the whole issue drop.



Yes, yes it is. Believing that there is some Jewish conspiracy is about as retarded as you can get. I'm sorry that you couldn't go to Japan - sounds like a funky situation - but don't blame Jews because your coach is a weirdo.

It's attitudes like that which drove the Jewish people out of Europe and to Israel.

Yes, I have a problem with Jews... Thats why my best friend is Jewish, thats why 2 of my paintball buddies are Jewish, thats why half of my classmates are Jewish and I get along fine with all of them. Where do you get this "Jewish conspiracy" from? I am saying that there is a possibility that there is a bias against non-Jews at my school. Have I ever blamed the jews for any of it? I've been treated unfairly twice, while a Jewish counter part was given an opportunity to do something.

As stated before I don't have any bias against Jews. Look at any network that I am in. Look at any of the work that I have done. I do dislike Israel for its flagrant mistreatment of the Palestinians. If you don't 'believe' in that mistreatment, sorry, there are 65 UN resolutions against Israel with regard to this conflict. I have never brought in anything about Jews being responsible for anything and it is amazing that you have this "he's anti-semetic lets get him attitude" simply because I am anti-Israel. You obviously can't differentiate between a race and a country.

Yes... Calling me a nazi... Attitudes like yours allowed the zionists to perform ethnic cleansing on the Palestinian people. (and yes, everyone agrees that it did happen, just some say that it was justified and others say it wasnt', denying that is like denying that the holocost happend)

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Right. You're all about the love. :rolleyes:

Given the number of passifist groups I am a part of and given the fact that I've been working with ACLU for a while now, I would say that I am an advocate for Peace and Justice in the US and Israel for everyone, Jewish and non-jewish alike.

Also, given that I just recieved a full, four year scholarship to Washington University in St. Louis, based on my record of working on the Palestinian/Israeli issue as well as a number of essays that I have written, I think it is safe to say that when someone isn't a racist against palestinians, I'm not insulted like I have been by you. I don't know, somehow I don't think a top 10 university in the US would just hand me 100k+ to go to school based on my activism to end racism and promote peace if they thought that I was anti-semetic.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by NJPaint
Yes... Calling me a nazi... Attitudes like yours allowed the zionists to perform ethnic cleansing on the Palestinian people. (and yes, everyone agrees that it did happen, just some say that it was justified and others say it wasnt', denying that is like denying that the holocost happend)

Oh my God. You have just resurrected an old CollegeBoy argument. Do not go there please for your own sake.

Not everybody agrees that the Israelis performed Ethnic Cleansing on the Palestinians. Quite a few people belive that it is a matter of survival as Israel is willing to give Palestine a state, but the Palestinians want Israel annihilated.

[Rooster]

"Who should have the responsibility for cleaning up what the Zionists started? The Israelis who get 3 billion a year in welfare from the US taxpayers, or the Palestinians who live under occupation and curfew? If you oppress and perform genocide on a group of people, they are going to be pissed and try to hurt you."

And, my little prejudiced friend, when said people get tired of having crazed idiots blowing up busses full of their children, they will take away the freedoms of the people deliberately trying to kill their children.

By the way, the Arabs didn't control the land. The British did, and they gave it to Israel. If the Arabs didn't like Israeli rule, they should have moved.

Just because you favor the less popular side in a conflict doesn't make you any less prejudiced against the Israelis.

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


Oh my God. You have just resurrected an old CollegeBoy argument. Do not go there please for your own sake.

Not everybody agrees that the Israelis performed Ethnic Cleansing on the Palestinians. Quite a few people belive that it is a matter of survival as Israel is willing to give Palestine a state, but the Palestinians want Israel annihilated.

ethnic cleansing
n.
The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide.

Lets see, refersh my memory about what happend in 1948... The forcive removal of the Palestinians from their land by forced emigration into refugee camps and by moving them into the west bank...

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by Rooster
"Who should have the responsibility for cleaning up what the Zionists started? The Israelis who get 3 billion a year in welfare from the US taxpayers, or the Palestinians who live under occupation and curfew? If you oppress and perform genocide on a group of people, they are going to be pissed and try to hurt you."

And, my little prejudiced friend, when said people get tired of having crazed idiots blowing up busses full of their children, they will take away the freedoms of the people deliberately trying to kill their children.

By the way, the Arabs didn't control the land. The British did, and they gave it to Israel. If the Arabs didn't like Israeli rule, they should have moved.

Just because you favor the less popular side in a conflict doesn't make you any less prejudiced against the Israelis.

"crazed idiots"

What do you call what happend to Rachel Corrie? What about the fact that the Palestinian people were kicked out of their land and forced under occupation? "Deliberately trying to kill their children" Likud manifesto, sitting infront of me: "A greater Israel from Sea to Jordan River". The controling political party's byline is that Israel should own/control everything between the Mediteranean and the Jordan river, this was first published in 1972. That doesn't seem like going after children, that seems like they want to deport, or move every Palestinian from "Israeli lands". You demonize all Palestinians as wanting Israel to not exist. Well, if all your lands were taken away and you were forced into confined camps, wouldn't you want the same thing? Even then most Palestinians don't. Most want their personal land back, or at least to live in peace, instead of under occupation and curfew.

Look at the number of Palestinian Civilians killed by the IDF compared to the number of Israeli citizens killed by Suicide bombers. The numbers aren't even close.


Which is worse, killing several hundred, or killing several thousand and keeping 6 million people oppressed and under occupation? You think that suicide bombings are bad, why not attack the problems instead of intensifying them. The Palestinians are living with 1/9th the water that the Israelis are. The live under constant black outs, they can't move because of the super highways and checkpoints, and many live in refugee camps. Compare that to the Suicide bombers. I don't understand how those are even comparable.

[ShooterJM]

I seem to remember something about the seven armies that isreal was immediately at war with suggesting to the palestinians to leave as well....

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by NJPaint
I don't know, somehow I don't think a top 10 university in the US would just hand me 100k+ to go to school based on my activism to end racism and promote peace if they thought that I was anti-semetic.


One has absolutely nothing to do with the other, just FYI. I know a guy who really isn't all that bright, who just happens to be terribly racist and black and he got a full ride to harvard.....

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by ShooterJM
I seem to remember something about the seven armies that isreal was immediately at war with suggesting to the palestinians to leave as well....

And the Jordanians were oppressive as well, and even more violent than the Israelis. Is that what Israel wants to do? Be compared with Jordan and its treatment of the Palestinians? If you want to go there, it looks like the Palestinians are trying to live in a world where nobody wants them and have been kicked out of their homeland. I recognize that what the Jordanians did was Evil, but that doesn't make what Israel does right.

The Jordanians didn't like the Jews setting up shop right next to them. That is why they and their Arab cronies attacked Israel, they did the right thing, for the wrong reasons. The Israeli's have as much right to live in peace as any other people. However, just because they have that right doesn't mean that it can be at the expense of the native people. I wouldn't have a problem with a multi-ethnic Israel, where everyone, zionists and natives alike share the same laws and rights. However, by performing ethnic cleansing of the native people then settign up a "democracy" is not the right way of doing things. The reason why the Palestinians started uprising was not because the "hated jews". Their motives were primarily secular. You don't hear them proclaiming what they do is for Allah. Did you know that the Palestinians are the most secular of the Arab people? Or that ~30% in 1948 were christian? They feel like they have been stepped on for 50+ years and they don't like living under oppressions and occupation. Just like anyone. Look at the revolutionary war, or any other group oppressed by another people.

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by ShooterJM



One has absolutely nothing to do with the other, just FYI. I know a guy who really isn't all that bright, who just happens to be terribly racist and black and he got a full ride to harvard.....

Maybe, but was it merit based? Did he have to show who he really was and what he had done to get it? Or was it based on financial need...

[Rooster]

"However, just because they have that right doesn't mean that it can be at the expense of the native people."

The Palestienians are not native. The term didn't even exist until neighboring countries encouraged Arabs to enter Israel and attempt to settle. And as I said before, the land was Britain's to give away.

The Palestian people were a people invented with the sole intension of displacing the Israelis. It has been proven time and time again that they have no interest in co-existance. Until the PLA uses all of their reasources to start hunting down terrorists, the palestienians will get no sympathy from me.

[1stdeadeye]

Remember the UN offered both the Israelis and Palestinians their own countries. The Israelis accepted and set up their country. The Palestinians refused and demanded everything. They lost the ensuing wars. Tough luck.

THe Palestinians now hang their hat on a 50+year old UN resolution that they themselves rejected.

BTW,
The Jordanians are supposed to be brothers to the Palestinians and the Israelis the oppressors. Not much difference eh?

[Emily]

Back to the orginal topic....

Ask your parents to write a note saying they don't give permission for you to attend what ever assembly you don't want to go to.

Back when I was in high school, all I did was ask my dad and he wrote a note. But then again, the only shirts we couldn't wear were shirts that had cuss words on them. Ahhh back in the day, when life was easier.

As far as I know (my kids are still in elementary school), a school can't make you attend an assembly that your parents have't given you premission to. Now keep in mind, no note means permission, a note saying you cna't attend, means no premission.

Simply

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Remember the UN offered both the Israelis and Palestinians their own countries. The Israelis accepted and set up their country. The Palestinians refused and demanded everything. They lost the ensuing wars. Tough luck.

THe Palestinians now hang their hat on a 50+year old UN resolution that they themselves rejected.

BTW,
The Jordanians are supposed to be brothers to the Palestinians and the Israelis the oppressors. Not much difference eh?

New Jersey is about the size of Israel. Lets say, modern day, the federal government said, we are moving the New Jerseians to the western half of the state and giving the eastern half to the Kurds, since they have been oppressed for the last 100 years. And they moved all of us in NJ to the Western half. Then the Kurds came in and set up new lives in the eastern, ocean side of New Jersey. They were perfectly peaceful and minded their own business. Wouldn't you and I be fairly upset that we were kicked out of our homes? Okay, now some of the extremists among us started going crazy because they were forced into living somewhere else and everything they had was taken away. Pensilvania and New York don't want us, they will shoot us on sight if we enter their lands. So those extremists take up arms and try to retake their land. The federal government gets pissed off and gives the Kurds 3 billion a year to set up fortifications and defenses against the New Jersians. Even though its a group of extremists, they need to control people traffic into the newly founded Kurdistan. Now the UN comes along and says, we'll give you land, we'll split the country (NJ) in two, former NJsians get the West, Kurds get the East, don't fight. Well, ya, the Kurds will say, of course, thank you very much. Will the New Jersians accept it? They just lost half their land and are being told that this is going to be made permanent...

Wouldn't you be pissed off too? I've met you 1stdeadeye, I know that you are a reasonable person and stable for that matter. I don't think that you would go crazy because you were kicked out of your home and forced to live under occupation. However, think about just in general, the US population, aren't there at least a few extremists, people that under those conditions might resort to terrorist tactics to get their land back? I agree, I think that having someone like MLK lead in non-violent protest is the way out of this situation, violence is much more attractive to occupied people. Jews (as an ethnic group, not religious) need a place where they can feel secure and safe. But, just like them the Palestinians are an oppressed people and they need equal protection.

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by Rooster
"However, just because they have that right doesn't mean that it can be at the expense of the native people."

The Palestienians are not native. The term didn't even exist until neighboring countries encouraged Arabs to enter Israel and attempt to settle. And as I said before, the land was Britain's to give away.

The Palestian people were a people invented with the sole intension of displacing the Israelis. It has been proven time and time again that they have no interest in co-existance. Until the PLA uses all of their reasources to start hunting down terrorists, the palestienians will get no sympathy from me.

lol, "the term didn't exist" Palestine has been refered to as Palestine since before the middle ages. Prior to WWI, it was refered to as Palestine. Look at any British Map from WWI or WWII, it says Palestine. The term has been around for hundreds of years! Palestinians are the people who lived in Palestine in 1948. You are basically saying that nobody was there in 1948, that it was vacant land that the zionists invaded. "Neigboring countries encouraged arabs to enter israel" I have met many families who had plots of land in 1948 in Israel-proper, who are now living in the US. There were people there, if you want to ignore that, you are blocking out the truth. Who exactly immigrated to the area after the zionists arrived??? There were already people there...

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by NJPaint


New Jersey is about the size of Israel. Lets say, modern day, the federal government said, we are moving the New Jerseians to the western half of the state and giving the eastern half to the Kurds, since they have been oppressed for the last 100 years. And they moved all of us in NJ to the Western half. Then the Kurds came in and set up new lives in the eastern, ocean side of New Jersey. They were perfectly peaceful and minded their own business. Wouldn't you and I be fairly upset that we were kicked out of our homes? Okay, now some of the extremists among us started going crazy because they were forced into living somewhere else and everything they had was taken away. Pensilvania and New York don't want us, they will shoot us on sight if we enter their lands. So those extremists take up arms and try to retake their land. The federal government gets pissed off and gives the Kurds 3 billion a year to set up fortifications and defenses against the New Jersians. Even though its a group of extremists, they need to control people traffic into the newly founded Kurdistan. Now the UN comes along and says, we'll give you land, we'll split the country (NJ) in two, former NJsians get the West, Kurds get the East, don't fight. Well, ya, the Kurds will say, of course, thank you very much. Will the New Jersians accept it? They just lost half their land and are being told that this is going to be made permanent...

But NJ is two states! North and South Jersey! You need a passport to cross 195! ;)

Seriously though. The analogy is flawed. Remember the Middle east is a hodge podge of made up countries. The rulers and borders were set by the west when they pulled out. Also remember the Palestinians and Jews fought the British TOGETHER!

Since we already own NJ, the analogy does not work.

Wouldn't you be pissed off too? I've met you 1stdeadeye, I know that you are a reasonable person and stable for that matter.

You take that back!!!!!:mad:
;)
I don't think that you would go crazy because you were kicked out of your home and forced to live under occupation. However, think about just in general, the US population, aren't there at least a few extremists, people that under those conditions might resort to terrorist tactics to get their land back? I agree, I think that having someone like MLK lead in non-violent protest is the way out of this situation, violence is much more attractive to occupied people. Jews (as an ethnic group, not religious) need a place where they can feel secure and safe. But, just like them the Palestinians are an oppressed people and they need equal protection.

The way to that peace and co-existence is not at the barrel of a gun, but at the point of shame. Look at how South Africa and India changed. Peaceful non-violent resistence. As long as the Palestinians have suiceide bombers, peace will not happen. THe Israelis already said they will negotiate when the violence stops, so the Palestinians need to take Israel up on that. Problem is there are too many wackos in the mix!

[NJPaint]

I totally agree, that there are too many wackos on the Palestinian side. I think its understandable where their anger is from (I understand what is going through their head) but, their actions are vile and disgusting. However, look at what happend with Barak. Full Ceasefire, suicide bombings stopped, Arafat met with Barak and Clinton. The best offer given to Arafat was 96% of the land. He didn't take it. If you look at the deal, he was right to reject it. The best analogy is a prison. 96% of a prison is controled by the prisoners. However, it is that 4% that are the walls, cell doors, guard towers and weapons caches that make the rest totally controlable.

What Barak offered at Camp David was a formula for continued Israeli military occupation under the name of a "state."

The proposal would have meant:
no territorial contiguity for the Palestinian state,
no control of its external borders,
limited control of its own water resources, and
no full Israeli withdrawal from occupied territory as required by international law.
In addition, the Barak plan would have :

included continued Israeli military control over large segments of the West Bank, including almost all of the Jordan Valley;
codified the right of Israeli forces to be deployed in the Palestinian state at short notice;
meant the continued presence of fortified Israeli settlements and Jewish-only roads in the heart of the Palestinian state; and
required nearly 4 million Palestinian refugees to relinquish their fundamental human rights in exchange for compensation to be paid not by Israel but by the "international community."

http://electronicintifada.net/artman/uploads/gen4.jpg (96% includes already land given back)

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by Rooster

And, my little prejudiced friend, when said people get tired of having crazed idiots blowing up busses full of their children, they will take away the freedoms of the people deliberately trying to kill their children.


Gaza Diary of Chris Hedge's Reporter for Harper magazine, published June 17, 2001. Hedge has also covered numerous hotzones of conflict.



"I sit in the shade of a palm-roofed hut on the edge of the dunes, momentarily defeated by the heat, the grit, the jostling crowds, the stench of the open sewers and rotting garbage. A friend of Azmi's brings me, on a tray, a cold glass of tart, red carcade juice."

"Barefoot boys, clutching kites made out of scraps of paper and ragged soccer balls, squat a few feet away under scrub trees. Men in flowing white or gray galabias -- homespun robes -- smoke cigarettes in the shade of slim eaves. Two emaciated donkeys, their ribs protruding, are tethered to wooden carts with rubber wheels."

"It is still. The camp waits, as if holding its breath. And then, out of the dry furnace air, a disembodied voice crackles over a loudspeaker."

""Come on, dogs," the voice booms in Arabic. "Where are all the dogs of Khan Younis? Come! Come!""

"I stand up. I walk outside the hut. The invective continues to spew: "Son of a *****!" "Son of a whore!" "Your mother's ****!""

"The boys dart in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separates the camp from the Jewish settlement. They lob rocks toward two armored jeeps parked on top of the dune and mounted with loudspeakers. Three ambulances line the road below the dunes in anticipation of what is to come."

"A percussion grenade explodes. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scatter, running clumsily across the heavy sand. They descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me. There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children's slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos."

"Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered -- death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo -- but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport."


Or how about Physisians for Human rights report:

http://www.phrusa.org/research/forensics/israel/update_commentary.html



"the pattern of injuries seen in many victims did not reflect IDF [Israel Defense Forces] use of firearms in life-threatening situations but rather indicated targeting solely for the purpose of wounding or killing."

"the high number of gunshots to the head; the volume of serious, disabling thigh injuries; the inappropriate firing of rubber bullets and rubber-coated steel bullets at close range; and the high proportion of Palestinian injuries and deaths."



Amnesty international, Human Rights Watch and B'Tselem all report on torture methods used by the IDF on Palestinian civilians, including children. So I guess Palestinians aren't the only ones that target civilians, or children for that matter.

[Rooster]

"So I guess Palestinians aren't the only ones that target civilians, or children for that matter."

You are comparing collateral damage to a deliberate attack on children. Thats like saying the US was trying to kill Iraqi children during the invasion. Now if the Israelis were gathering the children into camps and herding them into gas chambers, that would be deliberately targeting children.

I'm sorry, but you have thrown your support to terrorists and scum. They deserve everything they have gotten, and deserve far worse. If someone displaced part of America, especially if that group was far stronger than America, I would expect our government to root out terrorists and punish them, rahter than support them. The Palestinians are asking, no they are begging for reprisals. If they didn't want to die, they would clean their own house. Instead the Israelis will do it for them.

[1stdeadeye]

I understand where you are coming from bro, but understand this: No matter what kind of state the Palestinians get, it will always be intertwined with Israel. The Palestinians need the jobs Israel offers, and Israel needs the labor force the Palestinians provide.

As for the right of return, this is over 50 years old. 2 generations have grown up in the refugee camps. Move on. The Arabs lost the wars against Israel. By all rights, Israel could take it all as spoils of war. The Barak plan might not have been perfect, but it was a start. If a Independent State of Palestine was formed, it would be the Haiti of the middle east: desperatly poor, violent and corrupt.

Remember it is Arafat and his kind that are looting the Palestinian Authority blind. There is plenty of aid flowing into the West Bank and Gaza that goes right back out. I posted a story from Paris about a month ago. Mrs. Arafat is under investigation for corruption and money laundering in France. SHe is living like royalty in Paris with her daughters on Palestinian money!

So by all means, let's have Israel pull back right now and give Arafat a country.:rolleyes: Not a bright move.

I like Sharon's unilateral idea. Pull back from the Gaza Settlements all together, build your wall and then turn your back on them. Let their "Arab Brothers" step up and take care of them.

[tony3]

Why does everyone try to pick fights with the school systems? Stuff like that really annoys the crap out of me. You are damn lucky that you even get public schools, I think some people are forgetting this. I would really support if all public schools made kids wear jeans and a white tshirt to get rid of all this BS and your personal rights. I think all public schools should adopt some type of uniform to get rid of all this crap. Please grow up and go to school to learn, not how to pick fights.

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by Rooster
"So I guess Palestinians aren't the only ones that target civilians, or children for that matter."

You are comparing collateral damage to a deliberate attack on children. Thats like saying the US was trying to kill Iraqi children during the invasion. Now if the Israelis were gathering the children into camps and herding them into gas chambers, that would be deliberately targeting children.

I'm sorry, but you have thrown your support to terrorists and scum. They deserve everything they have gotten, and deserve far worse. If someone displaced part of America, especially if that group was far stronger than America, I would expect our government to root out terrorists and punish them, rahter than support them. The Palestinians are asking, no they are begging for reprisals. If they didn't want to die, they would clean their own house. Instead the Israelis will do it for them.

That is the point of those articles, "collateral damage" is complete bs. They target civilians in the same manner that the Palestinians do.

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
I understand where you are coming from bro, but understand this: No matter what kind of state the Palestinians get, it will always be intertwined with Israel. The Palestinians need the jobs Israel offers, and Israel needs the labor force the Palestinians provide.

As for the right of return, this is over 50 years old. 2 generations have grown up in the refugee camps. Move on. The Arabs lost the wars against Israel. By all rights, Israel could take it all as spoils of war. The Barak plan might not have been perfect, but it was a start. If a Independent State of Palestine was formed, it would be the Haiti of the middle east: desperatly poor, violent and corrupt.

Remember it is Arafat and his kind that are looting the Palestinian Authority blind. There is plenty of aid flowing into the West Bank and Gaza that goes right back out. I posted a story from Paris about a month ago. Mrs. Arafat is under investigation for corruption and money laundering in France. SHe is living like royalty in Paris with her daughters on Palestinian money!

So by all means, let's have Israel pull back right now and give Arafat a country.:rolleyes: Not a bright move.

I like Sharon's unilateral idea. Pull back from the Gaza Settlements all together, build your wall and then turn your back on them. Let their "Arab Brothers" step up and take care of them.

Don't get me wrong, I despise Arafat as much as I do, if not more than the Israelis. I've heard so many stories from Palestinians I know living in the US about how Arafat has screwed over the Palestinians. He is worse than the Israelis because he is on of the palestinians. He has the power to say, throw down your arms and start non-violent protests. Appeal to the US for aid by getting rid of our arms. Instead, he has looked towards his own personal gain. It is sad really.

The image that sticks in my mind is of what Arafat did with the Palestinian money meant for garbage removal. He was basically sent it to his wife and let the garbage rot on the streets. He isn't the kind of person that should be leading the people. THe Palestinians turn to Hamas because like the Black Panthers of the 1960s, they provide relief where the PLO won't. The have soup kitchens, set up schools etc. Then, when Hamas performs its attrocities, they follow along because Hamas is the group making life livable for them.

I seriously think that if the US, or Europe worked at ending the causes of problems instead of superficially allowing Israel to deal with the simptoms (setting up checkpoints and walls). We would see more progress, at least more proggress than we've seen in the past 50+ years. Israel will be more secure if they work at ending the suffering instead of trying to lock down 6 million people.

You are right, both sides do need each other. I like the idea of having one state, equal protection under the law. Anyone who believes in one person, one vote, equal protection under the law (including a just Justice system, not just one that Jews only can be lawyers in), anti-terrorist, and anti-racist I don't have a problem with and are on the right track.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by NJPaint


Don't get me wrong, I despise Arafat as much as I do, if not more than the Israelis. I've heard so many stories from Palestinians I know living in the US about how Arafat has screwed over the Palestinians. He is worse than the Israelis because he is on of the palestinians. He has the power to say, throw down your arms and start non-violent protests. Appeal to the US for aid by getting rid of our arms. Instead, he has looked towards his own personal gain. It is sad really.

The image that sticks in my mind is of what Arafat did with the Palestinian money meant for garbage removal. He was basically sent it to his wife and let the garbage rot on the streets. He isn't the kind of person that should be leading the people. THe Palestinians turn to Hamas because like the Black Panthers of the 1960s, they provide relief where the PLO won't. The have soup kitchens, set up schools etc. Then, when Hamas performs its attrocities, they follow along because Hamas is the group making life livable for them.

So long as Arafat lives, there will never be peace!

I seriously think that if the US, or Europe worked at ending the causes of problems instead of superficially allowing Israel to deal with the simptoms (setting up checkpoints and walls). We would see more progress, at least more proggress than we've seen in the past 50+ years. Israel will be more secure if they work at ending the suffering instead of trying to lock down 6 million people.

You are right, both sides do need each other. I like the idea of having one state, equal protection under the law. Anyone who believes in one person, one vote, equal protection under the law (including a just Justice system, not just one that Jews only can be lawyers in), anti-terrorist, and anti-racist I don't have a problem with and are on the right track.

One state will never happen. The Palestinians are breeding faster then the Israelis! They would outnumber the Israelis and take over the state within 10 years. Thus the end of Israel. Two states are the only option. However they need to realize they a symbiotic and need each other.

If you really think about it, imagine the Middle East at peace. How many Billions of Dollars could the Palestinians and Israelis earn from tourism if all was safe. They would be one of the top tourist destinations in the world. But they would rather fight over scraps then earn a steak.:(

[NJPaint]

What do you mean by the end of Israel? You mean of a Jewish state? Yes, it will be the end of a Jewish state, that is what I have a problem with. Just as I don't like the idea of having the US lean 'christian' (even though I am Episcolalian). Jews having a safe haven in their holy land? I'm all for it. They deserve a place where they are safe from persecution. But a Jewish state? I don't like it. Especially in Jerusalem. The Jews claim it to be their sacred home. The temple of the Sepulcher and the Chuch of the Nativity are located front and center and they are places that I would like to go before I die. I am more worried about being shot by the IDF than I am of suicide bombers.

Take over the state? Depends on what you mean by take over. If a solid foundation can be laid, such as we have in the US, where race and ethnic background is a non-factor before the law, I see it as big of a problem as blacks vs. whites in this country.

[-Carnifex-]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Okay, yelling Boycott XYZ into a mic is speech. However schools are allowed to ban disruptive or obscene clothing. You would probably have been givent the same grief if you wore a dump Bush shirt or Impeach Clinton shirt.


Unless he signed something saying that he'll obey the dress code.

[-Carnifex-]

I'm almost positive the IDF isn't going to shoot some asian kid..

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by NJPaint
What do you mean by the end of Israel? You mean of a Jewish state? Yes, it will be the end of a Jewish state, that is what I have a problem with. Just as I don't like the idea of having the US lean 'christian' (even though I am Episcolalian). Jews having a safe haven in their holy land? I'm all for it. They deserve a place where they are safe from persecution. But a Jewish state? I don't like it. Especially in Jerusalem. The Jews claim it to be their sacred home. The temple of the Sepulcher and the Chuch of the Nativity are located front and center and they are places that I would like to go before I die. I am more worried about being shot by the IDF than I am of suicide bombers.

Given the bitter history and wars between them, how can you doubt that once the Arabs gain the majority, they would take over Israel and begin to oppress the Jews.

Take over the state? Depends on what you mean by take over. If a solid foundation can be laid, such as we have in the US, where race and ethnic background is a non-factor before the law, I see it as big of a problem as blacks vs. whites in this country.

Except that we have had a history of Civil rights problems. I don't recall many black suicide bombers or terrorists during the fight for equal rights. Also, our society was founded as a civil government, not religious. Where Muslims have democracy, they try to institute Muslim law (Sharia I think). Look at Nigeria. The Northern Muslim Provinces declared Sharia and Nigeria had to step in to guarantee non-Muslims their rights. Who would guarantee the Jews theirs? No one. That is why they defend it with arms!

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by -Carnifex-
I'm almost positive the IDF isn't going to shoot some asian kid..

No, run him over with a bulldozer maybe!;)

[PaInTbAlLeR476]

If its a public school, they cant tell you what to or what not to wear(as long as its not completly out of line i.e. nudity, cursing) but everyhting else you ARE allowed to wear, if you wanted you could take them to court and win.

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


No, run him over with a bulldozer maybe!;)

Was about to mention Rachel Corrie, heh.

[Matt1427]

nj paint= collegeboy wannabe. Ane he doesnt like jews.

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by Matt1427
nj paint= collegeboy wannabe. Ane he doesnt like jews.

why the **** are you here? Seriously. Did you even read the thread before saying something as racist as that? "doesn't like Jews"??? Read the posts that refer specifically to this, especially with my contacts with those of jewish faith. Do you have your head stuck in the ground?


Yes, I have a problem with Jews... Thats why my best friend is Jewish, thats why 2 of my paintball buddies are Jewish, thats why half of my classmates are Jewish and I get along fine with all of them. Where do you get this "Jewish conspiracy" from? I am saying that there is a possibility that there is a bias against non-Jews at my school. Have I ever blamed the jews for any of it? I've been treated unfairly twice, while a Jewish counter part was given an opportunity to do something.

Why do you bother to post other than you are a racist that has no other purpose other than to flame me.