Bounces (not trigger) getting out of hand

[Lohman446]

Ok... heres what brought this to mind, Im sitting bowling with the people who I play paintball with and someone asks me if Im buying a warp or C4 pants first - now no judging my answer as wrong, just understand it. I told them the pants, cause I thought they would improve my game more, and I was dead serious.

The fact of the matter is, a good jersey and good pants will gain me bounces on my errors.

Look at the advertisements for masks, especially the profiler (I use this example cause IM looking at it). I mean, the special bounce visor??

Look at the slider shorts - hip padding to prevent bunker bruising?? WTF?

Isn't this all getting out of hand?

[nt2004]

i'm not sure if people are buying jerseys and pants for increased chance of bounce. Most people, including me, buy these things for comfort. I love the padding on my pants because they protect my knees when i'm kneeling behind bunkers all the time. People like hip pads because it hurts to slide on you hip in some terrain. The jerseys are also designed for sliding. If anyone wanted to increasee bounces they'd just wear a couple of sweaters, not buy jerseys with a couple millimeters of padding.

[Sean "Chuffy" Combs]

For me, I wanted the jersey and pants so I could clean up and not have to worry about oil spots on my "normal" clothes.

My brother played in one of his nice sweaters one day when it was chilly here.. and although the color is gone, the "oil" spot it left behind is not.

[CodeMA]

ya, baggy pants are absolutely a must for most...

I sport Smokin pants, pads in... biggest size they make(ok Im a big guy anyway, I was expecting them to fit normal, but there like ballons on my legs ;)) and well, the legs are so nice and baggy, that with the pad inserts in, I have around a 65-1 bounce-break ratio over all, and one break was on my kneecap just above were the pad was at the time, and the other at a pocket(wallet/keys in) were I got hit for about 10 yards, and thats about it...

Ive stood there with my leg out at the curve of a spool(working on feild still, hadnt got all the blocks there to prevent this), I heard three hit, and 5 follow,as I pulled my leg, all hitting, none busting...thats some crazyness there

also, padded headbands, thats what there for... I currently sport a skull cap, and long hair to stuff under it partially, same effect.. last weekend for example, I was going in for a nice game closeing move, I make my run out of my primary back to the 35 box, the ushall, head down, marker back, hand over lense... sure enough... twack, like a beer bottle on the head, someone at the 50 put one to the top left side of my head....hitting my bunker I tounched my head, no paint, however there was a knot forming, about that time the guy I thought I hit at the other side of the 50 lit me up, but the head shot I took, deffently did not break, though by the time I made it to the dead box, you could see the rise in my skullcap were the knot had grown and pressed into the fabric...

jeresys baggy, yep... they help too 1 or 2+ sizes bigger seems to be a common thing, if not more for some, it gets crazy... but yes, it works, so people use this as an advantage...and it looks cool at the same time

[50 cal]

Good example of what you are talking about Lohman, is the new Dye jerseys. I call 'em cheater jerseys.

[Lohman446]

You mean the padding on the forearms of the C4 jerseys serves no purpose other than bounces? What do you mean?


LOL - before you all accuse me of being hypocritical, yes I have the C4 gear - that does not mean I do not think it is getting out of hand.

[Brophog]

Flat out, that's all cheating.

Sorry if I ruffle some feathers here, but baggy clothes, padded clothes, some mesh jersey's, padded masks, padded hats.

People that use these ARE ALL CHEATING

I can't believe we have some of the same people waiting to string up paintball companies for ethical behaviors, yet resort to the same bogus ethics when it comes to play.

You are intentionally trying to get a paintball, that fairly hit you, and keep it from breaking. That is poor sportmanship, and very bad ethics.

The rules need to be much better enforced, and all of you punished for such behavior. You might as well wipe and play on while your at it.


Blame the ref for calling you out too, that always works as well.

[tyrion2323]

I buy my jerseys and pants so that they fit like normal clothing. I'm not into this whole "bounce" BS. If you're getting lots of bounces - that tells you something about your skills.

[barberjohn]

at first i thought my new c4 jersey was just padded for comfort, but now you guys are making me think otherwise...

[DementedRabbit]

Don't cry when someone lights you up to get a break.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by Brophog
Flat out, that's all cheating.

Sorry if I ruffle some feathers here, but baggy clothes, padded clothes, some mesh jersey's, padded masks, padded hats.

People that use these ARE ALL CHEATING

I can't believe we have some of the same people waiting to string up paintball companies for ethical behaviors, yet resort to the same bogus ethics when it comes to play.

You are intentionally trying to get a paintball, that fairly hit you, and keep it from breaking. That is poor sportmanship, and very bad ethics.

The rules need to be much better enforced, and all of you punished for such behavior. You might as well wipe and play on while your at it.


Blame the ref for calling you out too, that always works as well.

Am I following the spirit of the rule? Not a chance. Am I following teh wording of the rule - even thats close. Am I doing the same thing everyoen else is, yep. Does that make it right? Nope...


FYI - No I don't wipe, I don't trigger bounce, and I question this. But it is legal, and until the point it is reigned in, I guess I'm on board. THat does not make it right, though I do sleep at night.

[Brophog]

FYI - No I don't wipe, I don't trigger bounce, and I question this. But it is legal, and until the point it is reigned in, I guess I'm on board. THat does not make it right, though I do sleep at night.

That's the point right there. Businesses sue each other, back stab each other, and file bogus law suits every day. Smart Parts does that, and everyone is calling for their head. They're doing it because everyone else is. That does not make it right.

Paintball is full of hypocrisy, and this clothing is just a continuation of it.

[jimmyjobob]

posted by Brophog

Flat out, that's all cheating.

Sorry if I ruffle some feathers here, but baggy clothes, padded clothes, some mesh jersey's, padded masks, padded hats.

People that use these ARE ALL CHEATING


sorry but I have to disagree with you there. i dont think that it makes that much of a difference. sometimes its just luck or a bad bounce and it can work the other way.

besides with the ROF, and amount of paint thrown in games i dont think these small advantages make you a cheater. i wear a jersey that may be a little baggy but thats about it. if i get a bounce of off it, do i call myself out, hell no, not unless it broke. if in doubt call paint check. these are the rules.

[Lohman446]

Can I agree with you, continue doing it, and admit it makes me look like, or be a hypocrite. Sometimes I complain about the direction things head, but make no movement to stop them, perhaps that makes me part of the problem.

And I would like to tell you, given the chance, knowing that potentially millions of dollars rode on it, that I would without hesitation make the same decisions TK has in the past, and I beleive I would have over time, but the SP path would be tempting, even if that does not make it right.

[spantol]

Heh. It's great that paintball now has its own version of Godwin's Law (http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_Law.html).


Originally posted by Brophog


That's the point right there. Businesses sue each other, back stab each other, and file bogus law suits every day. Smart Parts does that, and everyone is calling for their head. They're doing it because everyone else is. That does not make it right.

Paintball is full of hypocrisy, and this clothing is just a continuation of it.

[CodeMA]

btw, as stated, pants wernt bought intenatianlly for bounce issues, but it is a nice side effect...

my jersey is also smaller then I would like, its the same size as most of my street cloughs, and smaller then my loveable baggy shirts...


does it make getting lit up easyer, YES...does it reduse welts, deffently, does it induse bounces often, ok ya sure...

I do not mind getting lit up unless Im clearly walking off out of everyones way and someone bonus balls the crap outta me for no reason...

Im also not saying it isnt getting out of hand, but just like the ROF issues, it will hit a brick wall eventually, people keep pushing it, it will push back... its as simple as that...

[Brophog]

You all have brought up the best point. These cheater outfits are forcing people to dump more paint on you. They need to know that you are out, and if it takes 10 balls due to your clothing, then so be it.

Its unethical, and against the rules:

6.13 Players must wear pants, shirts & Jerseys that fit well. Players may not wear
oversized clothing. If a judge deems that a player’s clothing is oversized, the judge may
require new attire or make temporary adjustments using tape, pins, etc.

6.14 Players may not wear jackets, sweatshirts and or pants which are made out of highly
padded and absorbent material, such as thick cotton, felt or fleece, or of a padded or slick
nature, such as nylon or rubber. If a player is found to be wearing such material, he will
be pulled during game.

Those are from the 2003 NPPL Ruleset. It desperately needs updating.

[FutureMagOwner]

man i lost a little over 25 pounds now and all my clothes are incredibly baggy im not gunna go buy a new pair of pants just because of it ;)

anyway i definantly dont have the money to be buying clothes with the intent of getting bounces myself, however i probably should get some knee pads lol

[Lohman446]

Nice.. once again, vague NPPL rules screw things. That first one, good luck enforcing, too much room for definition. I wear the size DYE says fits me as far as pants, and shirt I wear the same size as t-shirts... NPPL needs to seriously look at their rules and get them, umm under control.

[Digits]

You guys are all complainers.. Should fat people not be allowed to play because they get more bounces??

Please.. How often do you think bounces really happen? You act like it's impossible to hit someone with more padded clothing.. Now unless there wearing a blow up suit it doesn't increase bounce percentage by that much..

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by Digits
You guys are all complainers.. Should fat people not be allowed to play because they get more bounces??

Please.. How often do you think bounces really happen? You act like it's impossible to hit someone with more padded clothing.. Now unless there wearing a blow up suit it doesn't increase bounce percentage by that much..

Without knowing the numbers, only watching, I would dare wager that it does increase them by a large percentage. If it does, does it change your opinion?

[tony3]

The only way to beat cheaters is to....light those newbies up!!!

Ok I'm joking. I don't see what is wrong with trying to get bounces. It is legal to do, in my opinion if its legal, there isn't anything wrong with it. Sure it isn't "ethical" but in tourney ball today it is come to whoever cheats the best, shoots the fastest and gets to the key bunkers first wins. I wear paintball pants because they were the only pants that wouldn't rip when I played with them, I get some bounces off them, but it wasn't the main reason I got them. I got a jersey because I thought it looked cool(even though I wear a shirt over it), but whatever you guys want to think thats cool with me...

[Brophog]

Originally posted by Lohman446
Nice.. once again, vague NPPL rules screw things. That first one, good luck enforcing, too much room for definition. I wear the size DYE says fits me as far as pants, and shirt I wear the same size as t-shirts... NPPL needs to seriously look at their rules and get them, umm under control.

You bet they do!

[Digits]

Originally posted by Lohman446


Without knowing the numbers, only watching, I would dare wager that it does increase them by a large percentage. If it does, does it change your opinion?

no.. I get hit in the legs with my dye pants where there is NO extra padding at all (on the side of the leg) and get bounces.. I get hit in places like the chest..

Honestlly.. A person with a hoody and a t-shirt underneath is going to get more bounces then a person with a Dye jersey and a t-shirt underneath.. the 03's at least.. The only real padding I have on mine is on the shoulders and for-arms and hoodies are just as thick if not thicker then that..

So if you rule that a hoodie will get more bounces then a somewhat padded jersey.. Then there isn't much left is there.. You could take an unpadded jersey but alot of companies now have some.. Wether it's for bouncing, protection, w/e.. Who cares, it's there and it aint going anywhere anytime soon so you should all just stop complaining and deal with it..

[Brophog]

Ok I'm joking. I don't see what is wrong with trying to get bounces. It is legal to do, in my opinion if its legal, there isn't anything wrong with it.

And where does it say they're legal again. I must have missed that part of the rule set. ;)

[redzone]

see this is where the salvation army comes in (cheap clothes for a good price)

[Brophog]

Unfortunately Digit, that is just a coverup.

There is obviously a problem. The solution to any problem is not just ignoring it, as you suggest.

Paintball, like any sport, is built on integrity. The very nature of the game is one of marking your opponent. When you do anything that causes that not to happen, you've invalidated the purpose of the game.

We need integrity back into the game. Whether its the clothing, the attitude, the refs, the organization, the sponsors.....

I don't see anyone "whining". These are legitimate FACTS. If anyone is whining, it appears to be you.

[JT2002]

Originally posted by CodeMA


also, padded headbands, thats what there for... I currently sport a skull cap, and long hair to stuff under it partially, same effect.. last weekend for example, I was going in for a nice game closeing move, I make my run out of my primary back to the 35 box, the ushall, head down, marker back, hand over lense... sure enough... twack, like a beer bottle on the head, someone at the 50 put one to the top left side of my head....hitting my bunker I tounched my head, no paint, however there was a knot forming, about that time the guy I thought I hit at the other side of the 50 lit me up, but the head shot I took, deffently did not break, though by the time I made it to the dead box, you could see the rise in my skullcap were the knot had grown and pressed into the fabric...

what cap do you have? where di u get it?

[tony3]

Originally posted by Brophog


And where does it say they're legal again. I must have missed that part of the rule set. ;)

My pants are a length 34, same length as I am, I don't see what isn't legal about that:D

[zacbot]

when i play paintball if the weather is warm enough, i will go out in my old paper thin tshirt and an old pair of jeans..depending on my waist size of the day..the pants are either baggy or fit just a bit tight.. i dont see what the big deal is..if somebody wants to waste money on something to get a bounce here and there..it keeps companies in business..

[Lohman446]

Just for the record, in recball and practice, I wear jeans and a t-shirt... no spare bounces there, but I do have clothes for tournaments too

[DementedRabbit]

http://cjspaintball.com/CPL/cplimages/oct/oct15.jpg

Good luck getting a leg break off MC Hammer there.

[GoatBoy]

I honestly think that extra padding slows you down, and wears you down as you play. Maybe MC Hammer over there actually needs bounce protection because MC hammer doesn't look like he's making it to any bunker very quickly.

And that's going to be your tradeoff... bounce protection at the expense of weight or just extra bulk and discomfort. It's kind of an age-old armor tradeoff.

I think a better player will be keeping himself pretty much tucked in. If the only things on him that are usually showing are his mask and gun, is he really doing himself a favor by wearing extra protection? Are you willing to trade some of your ability to keep from being hit for some vague probability of a bounce? Hell, the same goes for paint pods. If you habitually found yourself not using more than one extra pod a game, would you continue wearing 10 of them out onto the field? Or 5? Or even 3?

From my end, I generally treat it like a wipe. If I hit you once, I can hit you again. This is more often the case than not. I have had very few instances of where I bounced paint off someone but I didn't eventually take them out that game. Have a little faith in yourself.

If you get hit so much as to make bounce protection noticeable, then I think your game's already kind of lacking. Feel free to wear an inflatable costume, a full-auto gun, and 10 pods onto the field.

[Off Center]

I'd rather see most of my fellow players in baggy clothes than in spandex.

[Chojin Man]

Originally posted by GoatBoy
And that's going to be your tradeoff... bounce protection at the expense of weight or just extra bulk and discomfort. It's kind of an age-old armor tradeoff.


I dont think that the extra weight of baggy clothes is that noticeable or uncomfortable for that matter.

[Brophog]

Originally posted by Off Center
I'd rather see most of my fellow players in baggy clothes than in spandex.

I bet you do.....;)

[MrWallen]

Well I'll say one thing, you definately get a LOT more bounces off of jerseys/pants than other types of regular clothing.

I was reffing a game, standing 3 feet away from a guy in a jersey and literally say 6 balls fly in, all bounced. The guy shooting at him was pissed too, because he thought they broke.

[Beemer]

I'd rather see most of my fellow players in baggy clothes than in spandex.

Aww come on Spandex IS COOL

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=645557

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Brophog

...and against the rules:

6.13 Players must wear pants, shirts & Jerseys that fit well. Players may not wear
oversized clothing. If a judge deems that a player’s clothing is oversized, the judge may
require new attire or make temporary adjustments using tape, pins, etc.

6.14 Players may not wear jackets, sweatshirts and or pants which are made out of highly
padded and absorbent material, such as thick cotton, felt or fleece, or of a padded or slick
nature, such as nylon or rubber. If a player is found to be wearing such material, he will
be pulled during game.

Those are from the 2003 NPPL Ruleset. It desperately needs updating.

A couple millimeters is not 'highly padded'. Although I disagree with padding anywhere other than knees, I don't think a few mm is going to hurt. And I do were layers, because I dont like welts. I wear a normal-fitting long sleave t-shirt, and then a mesh shirt over that. Is that cheating? No. That's comfort. Not only that, but most of the comments here are again relating to speed or tourney ball. A small portion of the sport. I have never seen a woodsballer show up in one of these so-called 'bouncer' jerseys.

Gabe

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by Gabriel


A small portion of the sport. I have never seen a woodsballer show up in one of these so-called 'bouncer' jerseys.

Gabe

I play both, and we need to realize in this sport that people who cheat are not only found on the speedball field. This whole woodball players are more honest.. etc. is questionable and just another one of the cover this up so we don't have to deal with it things. I have seen more blatant attempts at cheating in woodsball then I care to recall. "What do you mean I can't be shooting 380FPS, its what we do at my house". And yeh, some of everday clothing will get more bounces than jerseys - which I have worn playing woodsball. But, I digress, I'm not really into arguing the point, but cheating has become a part of most large group games, be them tournaments, speedball, recball, woodsball, whatever. I think we need to accept it in order to figure out what to do about it.

[fallout11]

Lohman is quite right.

Recognizing and accepting that a problem exists is the first step towards correcting it.

Unfortunately, human nature appears to be such that 'we' are always searching for some advantage, fair or not.
Our competitive society encourages us silly humans to get ahead whenever possible, regardless of the consequences, or the effect on others. Darwinism, if you will, the law of the jungle. Devil take the hindmost.
Paintball players are no different, unfortunately.

But it does not have to be this way. Society developed concepts such as law, honor, and mutual respect, to aid people in their struggle against our baser instincts. We simply need to stand up, and say "this is not right".
Take a stand.

[Smoke]

Originally posted by Brophog
Flat out, that's all cheating.

Sorry if I ruffle some feathers here, but baggy clothes, padded clothes, some mesh jersey's, padded masks, padded hats.



So what if people wear baggy clothes? I wear baggy clothes outside of paintball as well, so does that mean I'm a cheater? :rolleyes: I own a red Dye '03 jersey (yes it has the padding), and I bought it because it's what I could afford ( 30% off when I purchased it), so does that mean that I'm a cheater?

As a head referee at an indoor field, I see no problem with padded anything, because frankly it just dosen't work. At the close range we play at, you could be wearing 2 inches of padding and it still won't really help you. One time I shot a kid wearing a winter coat and the ball still broke.

[AGDlover]

I don't care about the bounceing and all that I care about comfort and style. Its not allways about the bounch In fact some of the old DYE jersey (I think the 03's) had so much padding, 9/10 hits bounced and were automaticly made turny Illegle because of it.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by DementedRabbit
Don't cry when someone lights you up to get a break.


EXACTLY!

I'll shoot you till I see a break. If your fluffy clothing means it takes 20 shots....you'll get 20 shots.

[robdamanii]

Let's put it this way...

I bought a pair of Nexed pants, size XL. I wear a 32 or 34 waist, depending on the kind of pants, and I'll tell you...the baggy part of those pants keeps the hits from reffing a bunch of newbies down pretty well.

To a tourney? I'm going to be wearing something like my DYEs to play in, because they just scream good comfort for playing tight bunkers and such.

[Smoke]

Originally posted by Sniper king
I don't care about the bounceing and all that I care about comfort and style. Its not allways about the bounch In fact some of the old DYE jersey (I think the 03's) had so much padding, 9/10 hits bounced and were automaticly made turny Illegle because of it.

No, the Dye '03's don't have that much padding on them.

[DementedRabbit]

-Hit a guy 20+ times from the 50 to the back on his exposed shoulder over several seconds. Big fat guy, small dirt mound. No breaks against the shoulder part of his DYE jersey. After I finally got a break be became indignant and complained to the ref. He got laughed at.

-Seen a lot of sweatshirt-under-jersey stuff. Corny corny corny.

-NO DOWN JACKETS ON THE FIELD. PLEASE.



That being said I own a pair of DYE elbow pads which don't deflect paint. They aren't too good as pads either. My Flex 7 does a great job of putting welts on my jaw and doesn't deflect paint.

[GoatBoy]

Originally posted by Chojin Man


I dont think that the extra weight of baggy clothes is that noticeable or uncomfortable for that matter.

Well, your mileage will vary. What's your playing style? Run much? Fast? Play front? Sweat much? How many games do you get in when you go play? Do you play every game, or do you play a set and then sit out to take a breather before going back in? I notice you're in Texas. Play often in full-bore Texas heat? How about a really nice, humid day? Rain?

I guess it's not fair to ask these questions if I don't answer them myself. I run around quite a bit; I'm not fast, although people think I'm fast on the field. When I go out and play, I try to play every game possible. So I'll go out and play a set, come back for air and paint, then go right back out. I do this for 4-5 hours straight typically. That's one thing I've noticed about the jerseys and the baggy pants... They spend a lot of time sitting around shooting the breeze or whatever. I can't tell if it's because they're tired, or they're just trying to save paint. But I do notice this at every field that I visit. Oh, and I love playing in the heat. I feel weird if I don't break a sweat while exercising. I have no problem playing in the rain; I just don't like stepping into my car all muddied up.

I'm wearing some cargo pants right now. I love 'em. Nice and baggy, real comfy. I wouldn't play paintball in 'em though.

DementedRabbit: so... you eventually did take the guy out. Score: DementedRabbit 1, PaddedFatGuy 0. Somehow I think your anecdote perfectly supports my argument. The guy was fat; he wasn't going anywhere, and he's probably no stranger to getting shot so he buys the padded clothing. You hit him once, and then you hit him 19 more times.


As far as the whole cheating thing goes, that's fine, and I guess to an extent it's cheating. But I think in the grand scheme of things, this padding/baggy clothing thing is way, way overrated and over-scrutinized. Anything can happen on the field; you can get bounces off unpadded, fit players, you can break paint on a soft air bunker from the full length of the field, you can break paint on presumably soft clothing, you can have paint hit you so hard through padded clothing as to cause a massive lump on your head while still not breaking. There are experiences that go in both directions as far as the supposed effectiveness of padded/baggy clothing.

In the end, I'm more concerned about other things, like shooting hot guns, players going out of bounds and coming back, barrel plugs, playing on, field conditions, friendly fire, etc. etc. etc.

[Brophog]

I think those things are more important as well, but this was the topic that was brought up......

And when you say you buy a certain overly expensive brand of paintball pants to "help your game", red lights go off! ;)

[Crazy]

i'm a cheater.

[No sKiLLz]

I don't get it. Just use brittle paint. Set it out for a couple of weeks in a warm place before you play and it doesn't matter what the other guy is wearing.

The guys I play with, myself included, use the Redz neuroprene (however you spell it) elbow pads. The fact that paint bounces off of them forces us to get a clean hit and be able to do it more than once. I think padding (in moderation) does away with the frustrating BS random hits and forces you to get a real shot on someone.

[Chris42050]

Dont know what the big deal is here. I almost always get kills on peoples masks cause thats all you get to see. Its only when people are changing bunkers do you get a chance to shoot their body.

[No sKiLLz]

Originally posted by Chris42050
Dont know what the big deal is here. I almost always get kills on peoples masks cause thats all you get to see. Its only when people are changing bunkers do you get a chance to shoot their body.

You're not a very aggressive player, are you?

[trains are bad]

I wear baggy pants that fit over my kneepads and don't bind-this so far is oversize army surplus pants, or shorts (yes shorts) in the summer. On the top I wear whatever doesn't restrict and fits the weather--I will play in a tshirt or even no shirt.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by Brophog


And when you say you buy a certain overly expensive brand of paintball pants to "help your game", red lights go off! ;)

When I admit thats why I buy them and pay the price, or when I do buy them. Theres a difference, I do these things, and I am fully honest with myself about why I do them. Did I buy Dye to wear Dye, no I bought them because there was a justification to them costing more. Are they drastically expensive, sure don't kid yourself $100 for a pair of pants is ridiculous, but so is the expense of any hobby out there.

And BS flag, I guarentee you that pants and jerseys bounce more paint than my jeans and t-shirt, not directed to the quote, but those of you that deny that and then wear jerseys and pants need to be honest with yourself.

As far as speed, weight issues - hmm, probably easier to move, slide in than my jeans. There is not a negative there to them.

The problem is, as I discussed earlier, NPPL needs to get a handle on the rules, wording and enforcement. I have played with people in goose down jackets, breaks are hard to come by and this is ridiculous. I am not overly happy that jerseys are pushing the limits, but they are. Compare this to Nascar, we need to draw the lines where everyone knows where they are, and let everyone who chooses to play to those lines. Yeh, equipment will mean very very little because all our equipment is going to be made to those lines, and perform, at least in practical function, the same. This is the expensive way of getting back to pump play.

I think Brophog and I may seek the same end in reality, though with radically different methods. I would like to think I have that high of ideals. Pump play brings skill back, player skill is important. So does a game where we have all got equipment that does the same thing, different games yes, but in the end the offsetting factor between who wins and who looses is skill (or luck). I would like to play in a series where everyone is playing equal equipment (in function). I choose to do this by playing at the high end of functionable use. Am I arrogant to do so, sure, but someone with good skills and a cheap marker will still overcome all the equipment I can bring if I do not have the skill to back it up. My equipment though, can overcome a slight skill disadvantage, if I can get my skills high enough. If that equipment advantage is gone because everyone has the same high end equipment, skill (and luck) become the deciding factors.

BTW, yes I think "bouncey" clothing is getting out of hand, yes I think NPPL rules need to be reigned in, reworded and enforced. And I think that this discussion has brought me to the realization of where the major flaw in this is, yes the players push the rules, but NPPL (and others) needs to enforce them. We are not in a position were we are discussing blatant cheating (wiping), but pushing of the rules, if the rules did not allow this clothing, I would not wear it. There are many others in the same position.

[Chris42050]

Actually I do play aggresive No skillz. Im just a good shot. Dont need to see the whole body to get a kill. Just need a mask peaking out to shoot at. Mask shots almost always break.

Hey No skills u live right by me. You ever played at S.C. Village?

[Brophog]

I think Brophog and I may seek the same end in reality, though with radically different methods.

Its kind of interesting, that we have the same viewpoint, but with a drastic difference. Its not our methods that are different, its our actions. I think we both are in firm agreeance that the lack of a real oversight organization in paintball has led to far too many gray areas. The rules have not really changed in an awful long time, yet the equipment has drastically changed. The money in the sport has skyrocketed, yet we're still acting like this is a junior high basketball game, and we're bringing in volunteer refs.

If we want to be bigtime, like many of you claim, then we must act big time. You all want the same treatment as "real sports" with the TV and promotion that goes along with it. Well, those sports have definitive rules, definitive officials, and organizations that are willing to separate themselves by the sponsors that own them. We get mad when we see them act with less integrity than necessary. You should do the same when it comes to paintball.

Its the hypocrisy that I'm mostly after here, not so much the fairness. If we eliminate the hypocrisy, we will in turn create the fairness that your after. Do some of you realize just how much this industry in inter-married. Players who own companies, who pay for the series, who in turn pays the players. Too many people have a vested interest in this sport to honestly evaluate the way it is played.

Its like the 1920's with cops and politicians being bribed. That's the logic all of you use whenever you say things like "the paint companies would never go for it", "Dye would never go for it". Yeah, you all see that the wrong things are happening because certain industry players are playing both sides of the fence, and making money on it. You must separate the people running the event from making money on the event. Imagine if the NFL Commissioner (Paul Tagliabue) made more money if the 49ers won. Say a lot more money. When these things happen in other sports, your appalled, yet your letting it happen in this one.

Stop pretending folks. There are people in this sport who care less about anything BUT money. They don't care about you winning or losing, of if the game was fair. Your attitudes are supporting this cause. I don't care if my well sized, unpadded clothing gets me eliminated. It sure beats being one of the "mainstream" cheaters like most of you.

[No sKiLLz]

Originally posted by Chris42050
Actually I do play aggresive No skillz. Im just a good shot. Dont need to see the whole body to get a kill. Just need a mask peaking out to shoot at. Mask shots almost always break.

Hey No skills u live right by me. You ever played at S.C. Village?

Almost every weekend. This month I'm going to the events though, so I may go next weekend or the last weekend of March.

Speedball is a game of angles. Getting a good angle on someone is forcing them to either expose body parts or hump their bunker. You can't call yourself aggressive and not be used to blindsiding someone from the snake or running the tape.

[Chris42050]

No Skillz You are right about speedball bein about angles. When you angle someone in speedball your usually pretty close so the paintball will break on them. Its the farther shots that you have to worry about breakin and those are the ones I hit peoples masks with. So padded clothing for me is not a big complaint (at least right now).

I am probably goin to S.C. this weekend with some friends. Whats your main marker u use?

[Brophog]

You guys are forgetting about the all important break. Eliminating opponents before the game has essentially begun is a big part of speedball.

That's the biggest area of clothing cheating as well.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by Brophog
You guys are forgetting about the all important break. Eliminating opponents before the game has essentially begun is a big part of speedball.

That's the biggest area of clothing cheating as well.

Right there... I don't expect clothing to save me all the time, but when I take a bounce on a run towards center it has changed the whole dynamics of the game. I play front (in three and five man), so imagine a situation where I am hit on a break to the fifty - lets say its a three man game.

Option A) The ball breaks, my midplayer is forced to not make his first move and ends up in one of the back stand-ups, my back player is in the other, they are now forced to cross the field to keep the other team from advancing hard in a battle they will likely loose. This has freed up the middle of the field and the flag pull is easy for the other team.

Option B) The ball bounces off my C4 pants, or "bounce visor" on the profiler. I slide into the fifty and am a few feet from the flag. My midplayer is able to move up at this point, and with good cover take one of the snakes. The other team now has to contend with me snapping or even covering from teh fifty as he moves up the snake to get those angles. I can basically keep the other team out of each snake from my position, and have become more of a holder than an advancer as my midplayer likely passes me to take out their team.

Now, tell me again why I have bouncey stuff?

Again, is it legal, sure, barely. Do I feel I have done anythign wrong... not really (arguable). Is Brophog right that NPPL rules and oversight have gotten out of hand, definetely. I will attest to my adding to the problem, but where I disagree with some, the fix is not eliminating my attitude, but making certan the rules are known, and enforced.

[Wes Janson]

What pisses me off is seeing someone take round after round from a superior marksman, hits so hard that you can hear them curse and jump each time from across the field, but yet they never break. I've watched a player in jersey and paintball pants fight singlehandedly against almost a half dozen other players, and take at least a dozen bounces. Because he didn't feel the need to protect himself, he was able to just sit in the open lighting up anyone returning fire, and absorbing the hits that came his way. I never found out if someone finally gogged him or not, but that's damned near the only way to take someone like that out.


Tell me how that's fair to the other players.

[Lohman446]

Its not fair... simple answer. However, show me a tournament where 90% of the people are not using equipment specifically made for bounces - perhaps they have not bought the best out there, or most expensive because maybe what I have is not the best, but they are seeking the same thing.

For the record, on rec days aside from the marker setup the tournament equipment I use are my ATC shoes, and the Dye tank covers, but the tank covers are a safety issue and have nothing to do with bounce. I dont think I have ever bounced off of one. And often enough my e-mag can be traded out for my phantom.

[Chris42050]

I think everyone pretty much agrees on this subject.
Are the clothes legal cheating ? Yes
Are people going to take advantage of that? Yes
Do the rules need to be changed? Yes
Can they be changed in a way that will work? That is the real question we should be discussing. I dont know if they can change the rules good enough to really solve the problem.

[Meph]

If that's the case then shouldn't there be a standard weight limit in paintball Broph? I mean shouldn't fat people be considered cheating, due to their plump soft guts causing bounces? The tanker tush thunder thigh massive assive weight issue they have as well is making paint bounce off them, not just clothing. Shouldn't those people also be punished since it goes against the game's intent. They have that advantage over the skinny people. Those damn fat people are hypocrits!

[Meph]

Originally posted by Wes Janson

Tell me how that's fair to the other players.

You have to realize it isn't always the clothes. Have people already forgotten about how paint can suck? Not all paint at the events is Ultra Evil, people!

I've had bounces on my back at events from 35feet away. And I don't know of any jersey with back padding! It's not because of my special evil-doer cheater clothing! It's because the paint sucked at the event.

Clothing seems to becoming the scapegoat now to paint bouncing off people. Low velocity, long distance, and thick shelled paint still play a factor in todays world of paintball.

[Wes Janson]

I think it's far more likely that was a result of low velocity than bad paint. And in the example I cited, the paint [b]was[b] horrible, but not in that way...it was, if anything, far too brittle. The only guns not consistantly breaking paint were mags.

If that's the case then shouldn't there be a standard weight limit in paintball Broph? I mean shouldn't fat people be considered cheating, due to their plump soft guts causing bounces? The tanker tush thunder thigh massive assive weight issue they have as well is making paint bounce off them, not just clothing. Shouldn't those people also be punished since it goes against the game's intent. They have that advantage over the skinny people. Those damn fat people are hypocrits!
I dunno what your experience has been with overweight players, but from what I've seen, they make larger targets, and the fatty parts are just as likely to break as anything else. You may see more bounces, if only because more shots are actually making contact. I think of them as being paint magnets.

[badinfo]

Originally posted by Chris42050
I think everyone pretty much agrees on this subject.
Are the clothes legal cheating ? Yes
Are people going to take advantage of that? Yes
Do the rules need to be changed? Yes
Can they be changed in a way that will work? That is the real question we should be discussing. I dont know if they can change the rules good enough to really solve the problem.

Legal cheating?:rolleyes:

[Crazy]

are you going to ban fat people now?

[Chris42050]

Originally posted by badinfo


Legal cheating?:rolleyes:


Dont pretend your too stupid to know what I mean.

[steveo356]

I got my Dye c4 pants and a brand new dye jersey for looks and the fact that i loce the look on newbie faces when i walk out with my Rt pro sporting matching dye jersey pants and invision. sorry but i play with a teeshirt undermy jersy mostly cuz i dun like the silky feeling on my skin im used to cotton

[Big_Chops]

yea its cheating but its no illegal so i could care less. as i type now i am wearing my baggy dye pants. they are soo comfortable

[Crazy]

cheat ( P ) Pronunciation Key (cht)
v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats
v. tr.
To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
To elude; escape: cheat death.

v. intr.
To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.

um, it's not cheating if it isn't illegal.

[FallNAngel]

Legal cheating:
- To "play the grey area"
- Playing in such a way that it's unclear whether you're playing legally or illegally
- Doing something that's questionably illegal

at least that's what I take it as.

[trains are bad]

But not

"Doing something person X thinks SHOULD be illegal, but isn't"

[Crazy]

There is right, and wrong.
If there isn't rule, it is not wrong.
there is no "questionably illegal", it either is, or isn't.

[Brophog]

But it IS illegal. I'm not reposting it, I know I posted earlier in this thread about baggy and oversized clothing being illegal.

[hostage]

I really think bounces should count :\ I think it is kind of lame they don't, mb they will have to make paint more brital to break easier.

I am forced to shoot until I see paint break, to bad for him that behind that break about 20 balls are already in the air.

-Hostage

[Wes Janson]

To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.

Wearing uber-padded gear is depriving the other player of perfectly reasonable hits through trickery.

[Crazy]

but who is to judge what is oversized and baggy?

[DementedRabbit]

Originally posted by Crazy
but who is to judge what is oversized and baggy?

http://www.tvtome.com/images/shows/20/7/6-6842-sm.jpg

[Crazy]

way to suck at the internet, red x's are real cool.