Crackdown on cheater boards

[Woogie12]

http://www.paintballstar.com/pn/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&page_id=139

The big news is that the PSP is finally taking notice of the rampant use of illegal guns. The change didn’t seem to come until after Thunderstruck petitioned one of their X-ball matches. Their opponents, Ignition, were all found to be shooting Intimidators with illegal modes. Of course, Ignition wasn’t the only team doing this, but it looks like they were catalyst to several teams’ guns being confiscated for the tournament, including NXL teams.

[RRfireblade]

Nice.

Hopefully it will filter down through the rest of paintball.

[RoadDawg]

I saw a couple 5 min penalties today at the la open and I was told it was for illegal guns. Caught me off guard.

[Steelrat]

When they say "illegal mode" what, exactly, does that mean? Is it a question of too-low a debounce, or something else?

[Butterfingers]

BRAVO!

[Halliday]

2nd bravo!

Can you go into more depth of the "illegal modes?"

[LeatherPants]

Originally posted by Steelrat
When they say "illegal mode" what, exactly, does that mean? Is it a question of too-low a debounce, or something else?

There are various "cheater" boards. One of the most common is the ramped board. Basically at the chorno it shoots fine. One pull one shot. No bounce. Consistent. BUT as you shoot faster it ROF ramps. Sorta like a the old turbo boards. Usually they start ramping at about 10 bps then start doubling from there.

Another cheat is the trigger firing when it returns. Has to be a fast kinda slap return. When you pull the trigger and let it slap back forward. You can get 2 shots per pull this way. Reason you normally can't find this cheat is that refs don't check for bounce that way.

[ej_y4]

Originally posted by RoadDawg
I saw a couple 5 min penalties today at the la open and I was told it was for illegal guns. Caught me off guard.
i saw a few today to, one guy had his set up to 6 paintballs every trigger pull

[LittlePaintballBoy]

Crazy. Wasn't Manike playing with igntion at WC? I thought I read something about that, they are an empire teamright?

[Jack & Coke]

Good news! I hope they really expose how much cheating there is in paintball. Cheating is becoming more and more accepted as part of the game. I really wish more people were honest and played fair.

I was at the LA Open today, and I saw PLENTY of cheating (playing on, wiping hits with slides, turn and shoot after they get eliminated, etc.), as well as good refs who caught them.

I saw some crazy ROF today too... made me wonder about their shooting modes a little... I mean, it's obvious when you watch someone walking their fingers at a slow to med pace, a then their gun fires faster than what you're used to hearing on the field. Makes you go, "hmmmmm...":confused:

By far the most common guns at the event were (in order):

1. Intimidators (regular and alias)
2. DM4
3. Impulse
4. E-blades

[Jack & Coke]

from the link provided:http://www.paintballstar.com/pn/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&page_id=139




http://www.paintballstar.com/pn/modules/PagEd/pictures/2797975-paintball-pspla-2004.jpg

San Diego Legacy and LA Ironmen confiscated guns

[Underdog]

hah. im glad they were confiscated. electro is overrated. just another thing to fail at the time its needed most....stupid murphys law! but now it is finally cracking down on the "guns of mass destruction" this is common even at my field. its not fun when before you get gogged three times in the goggles....their fingers hitting the trigger 1.

[GT]

Originally posted by RoadDawg
I saw a couple 5 min penalties today at the la open and I was told it was for illegal guns. Caught me off guard.

only 5 min? wtf? I thought cheatin was alittle more serious?

[trains are bad]

only 5 min? wtf? I thought cheatin was alittle more serious?

yeah. penalties in paintball are a JOKE.

[Cyberious]

Makes you wonder just how popular these markers are goingto remain now that you can no longer use the illegal modes.

[bgredjeep]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Cheating is becoming more and more accepted as part of the game. I really wish more people were honest and played fair.

Its not just paintball, but sports in general, especially at the pro level. In non-related sports for example, there is a commercial for Nascar on the Speed Channel where a driver states "Its our job to cheat, and their job to catch us". Also, when is the last time you saw a pro basketball player called for traveling? Two steps my ***.

It is nice to think that something might be done about it in paintball, but we'll have to wait and see.

[50 cal]

Originally posted by Cyberious
Makes you wonder just how popular these markers are goingto remain now that you can no longer use the illegal modes.

They will still sell to the rec players because most fields never check for bounce. The tourney guys will be SOL or actually (gasp) play fair. Heresy, I know. But maybe tournament directors and promoters will finally start thinking with more than their wallets.

[Digits]

Sorry if someone has said this already (to lazy to read the thread)

But since the rampant cheating is coming mainly from WAS boards.. Why don't they just have a little flasher majig.. Set up somewhere near to where you enter the field, and anybody using a WAS board has to get it flashed.. This should certainly stop alot of it since most of the cheating seems to be from these boards..

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by bgredjeep


Its not just paintball, but sports in general, especially at the pro level. In non-related sports for example, there is a commercial for Nascar on the Speed Channel where a driver states "Its our job to cheat, and their job to catch us". Also, when is the last time you saw a pro basketball player called for traveling? Two steps my ***.

It is nice to think that something might be done about it in paintball, but we'll have to wait and see.

I agree...

On a high note, I did notice much more activity and rules enforcement by the refs in X-Ball. I liked the penalty box idea for cheating and arguing. I saw coaches yelling at their own players to shut up.:) The refs in x-ball were much better than the regular refs. I think active refs and stiff penalties like in x-ball will help curb cheating a little bit.

[RoadDawg]

Originally posted by gtrsi


only 5 min? wtf? I thought cheatin was alittle more serious?
Apparently they took the illegal markers and took them out of the games plus made the team have a 5 min w/o a man penalty and IMO 5 min w/o a man in Xball can be tough. Xball impressed me more then ever this year. The refs for the most part were decent but as J&C said you can see a guy walking not real quick but his marker sounds like he is. Anyways. The first couple days of play the markers were like this
1) 03 shockers
2) Timmies
3) DM4
4) Eblades

I didn't see many imp's but they must have been in different games.

[Cyberious]

Originally posted by 50 cal


They will still sell to the rec players because most fields never check for bounce. The tourney guys will be SOL or actually (gasp) play fair. Heresy, I know. But maybe tournament directors and promoters will finally start thinking with more than their wallets.

Perhaps, however alot of the rec players in my area tend to go the way of the tourney players. Even on this board and over on PBN I see alot of folks buying stuff just because it is the "in" thing. Alot of the younger players seem to want what the pros use.

[Butterfingers]

Those penalties are bull... if you get caught playing with a cheater gun your team should automaticly be disqualified.

[LeatherPants]

Don't forget you also have altered WAS boards in the HK Speeds. My friend has one. It has a 3 position toggle. Center is off. Left is normal no bounce one shot one pull. Right is 3 shot bursts. Hows that for a Biatch.

[FallNAngel]

Personally, I think if one person gets caught cheating, the team forfits the match and the opposing team gets full points. If caught a second time, they're out of the tournament. If caught a third time, the team is done for the season. It's a team sport... if one person on the team is cheating, the team is cheating. This would seriously curb cheating, though no one would ever allow this type of thing to happen, which completely baffles me.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by LeatherPants
Don't forget you also have altered WAS boards in the HK Speeds. My friend has one. It has a 3 position toggle. Center is off. Left is normal no bounce one shot one pull. Right is 3 shot bursts. Hows that for a Biatch.

LeatherPants is correct... I've seen that WASed Angel - crazy setup!

[50 cal]

Originally posted by FallNAngel
Personally, I think if one person gets caught cheating, the team forfits the match and the opposing team gets full points. If caught a second time, they're out of the tournament. If caught a third time, the team is done for the season. It's a team sport... if one person on the team is cheating, the team is cheating. This would seriously curb cheating, though no one would ever allow this type of thing to happen, which completely baffles me.

Great idea, but the way the heavy whiners get their way, it'll never happen.

[Brophog]

They will still sell to the rec players because most fields never check for bounce.

Now, you know only tourney guys cheat!;)

Only tourney guys overshoot!;)

Only tourney guys wipe too!;)


You really need to read this board more often.....:eek:

[magman007]

Now, let me start off by saying, i in no way condone cheating.

But have you ever noticed, that not many tourny players complain about being cheated against? its mostly us people? while i play tournies, im no no way as big as being able to go to all the psp events and competing etc.

Now, when was the last time you heard aftershock complaining that dynasty cheated against em? never. You see, most people regard, despite the cheating, that your body part should not have been in the place it was, when it was hit. And they cure cheating, by cheating back.

yea, cheating looks bad, but really, who gives a damn? i know i really dont. i care if im cheated against, and i will not cheat back, but really, who cares about major tournies and cheating? it doesnt effect you directly does it? i didnt think so.

so give it a rest. if it doesnt effect you, then why complain about it? it looks bad thats a given, but it looks bad on the person doing it, not on the sport as a whole.

thats some food for thought

[Lohman446]

I personally think the time penatly rules are a good compromise, now let me state this.

The old rules were not being enforced, refs and players viewed them as too harsh.

The new rules are... and a five min penalty is a big deal, the players accept it, the refs give them out.. etc.

It is better to have weak rules that are enforced than strong rules that are ignored.

Its kinda like fighting was in hockey - fight, 10 minute penatly, do that off the ice and it woudl be assault.

[FallNAngel]

Yes, but then you have the new(er) players that want to be like the tourney players. Shoot what they shoot, dress how they dress and .. yep, you got it, act like they act. They see pro tourney players cheating and think it's ok too. Does pro players cheating directly affect me? Just like you said, no it doesn't. It indirectly affects me though.

I'm not saying that everyone else that cheats, does it because the pro's do, but there are a lot of people out there that do.

Do pros complain when others cheat against them? Well, you may not see it on the DVD's, etc, but I'm sure the refs will hear about it. In either case, what does that have to do with anything? Does the fact that they don't complain somehow make it ok? Cheating *does* look bad. Who gives a damn? I sure as hell do.


Originally posted by Lohman446
The old rules were not being enforced, refs and players viewed them as too harsh.

Then it's time for new refs. It's not the refs job to decide if the punishment is too harsh or not, it's their job to enforce them... PERIOD.

[magman007]

well, then thats cheep as hell, but now that i know about it, il be sure to bonus ball you when i play you next, because i can rip 14 walking and 18 raking.

I dont really care if you cheat against me or not, as i said, i shouldnt have had my arm out when i did.

aslong as you are playing safe, and you have conplete control over your marker, then it isnt effecting me. It sucks for the people you play against, but again, so is life. Cheating isnt cheating until you get caught.


and did you ever stop to think, that maybe people wouldnt cheat if people didnt cheat in the first place? the major reason i see for higher rof, is to get one or 2 more balls into some one before they suck back to wipe, its hard enough to wipe one, let alone 3

[RoadDawg]

Well by watching the tourny there were lots of complaints about people playing on after being shot. Which in most cases were valid. Others just wanted to yell and scream to be heard. For example one guy got bunkered by one of the Empress girls and claimed he was over shot. I counted 4 maybe 5 shots on him. If that's over shooting then I've seen tons of worse cases. Hense that is why the ref told the player to take up bowling. The ROF cheaters annoy me due to the fact that they are basically not shooting semi. 3 or 4 shots a pull is not semi. That is a burst which is not allowed and shouldn't be. The fact I get hit is one thing but to make a somewhat level playing ground instead of back guys doing FA all the time is something I'd be happy to see. The crying and complaints go along in any sport. I felt the penalties were just and fair. 5 min can change a game since I seen several games with 30 sec games. At that pace 6 points are awarded.

[trains are bad]

aslong as you are playing safe, and you have conplete control over your marker, then it isnt effecting me. It sucks for the people you play against, but again, so is life. Cheating isnt cheating until you get caught.


*shakes head and wipes tear*

Maybe paintball isn't for me after all. I hope I never play against people like you.:(

[m-98]

It's sort of like gambling in baseball, people think that it wasn't a fair contest. When someone cheats, people think that the contest wasn't fair and it wasn't a true test of the team's skill.

[kilaueakid]

I find this article by PBSTAR very funny and should set the record straight. I play for team Ignition and was at the PSP LA this weekend. We did not have any guns banned, nor did we recieve any penalty's for our guns being "cheater guns" all weekend. I am not sure where PB STAR is getting there info, but like real world media, is and can be wrong and sometimes misleading. Yes, we stuck it to Thunderstruck, Yes we sent them home, No our guns were not banned and we never penalized for any gun related issues.

Truth from the source.

kila

[Jack & Coke]

if PBSTAR'S story is incorrect... you should email them a complaint and ask for a retraction.

[RoadDawg]

Originally posted by kilaueakid
I find this article by PBSTAR very funny and should set the record straight. I play for team Ignition and was at the PSP LA this weekend. We did not have any guns banned, nor did we recieve any penalty's for our guns being "cheater guns" all weekend. I am not sure where PB STAR is getting there info, but like real world media, is and can be wrong and sometimes misleading. Yes, we stuck it to Thunderstruck, Yes we sent them home, No our guns were not banned and we never penalized for any gun related issues.

Truth from the source.

kila

Well that eliminates that story. I did however see a couple 5 min penalties accessed and was told it was for "illegal" markers. Not sure who the teams were but they were on Saturday afternoon.

[manike]

Yes I played with Ignition at World Cup, but at this event I was playing with Texas Storm. Who ever wrote that article didn't know the full story. There were no complaints about igntion during their game and no issues from the judges but afterwards the opposition were whining. Ignition never had any guns pulled as far as I was aware. Plenty of others did though...

The checking of guns at this event was a joke.

It came down to many issues and there was no set policy or testing method.

It's something we tried to address for other Millenniumn Series with the rule on testing guns, but here the judges tested however they felt like it.

They would routinely take a gun, hold it loosely and pull the trigger very slowly or with two fingers as they pulled it.

I was penalised for a bouncing gun the very first game I played and before it became obvious how stupid the refs were being (after that Dan and Rosie took better control of the situation) because the ref couldn't understand how I could shoot my gun so fast 'legally' :rolleyes:. Any way he pulled it in a normal fashion (or as per the Millennium rules tests) it was fine, but when pulled really slowly after about 5-10 shots he managed to get a two shot bounce and gave me a 5 minute major penalty. He threatened me with a 10, if I argued. They were absolutely moronic about it. In my next game I asked the opposition player in the back corner to hang out and wait for me so I could pull my trigger really slowly and try and get two shots out at him... :rolleyes:

Anyway of pulling the trigger as if playing the gun was fine. I picked up and tried lots of other guns at the events and I could get them all to double shoot. Egi and I estimated we could get 85-90% of the guns at the event to get bounce when tested the way the judges were testing the guns. And yet I never saw even one player shooting a gun in a fashion similar to the test method.

They decided a huge number of guns were illegal and started screwing anyone who's gun they could get two shots out of anyway they could. It was a joke.

At one point they shot a hopper and a POD through a kids gun, before declaring it to have bounce.

Then Jim Drew got involved and it seems that he is now rather upset at not making boards for all of the Intimidators so he came out with an insane accusation that all 'Black to silver' aliases were illegal. :rolleyes: As if it would be guns of just one anodising colour. Has the guy lost his mind? Or is it the fact he doesn't make the boards for these guns? He was going around accusing all Alias's and DM4's of ramping and being illegal.

Before one game he asked a kid on the opposition if he could try his gun. The kid said 'sure' Jim tried his gun and then told the refs that all the teams guns were illegal as he 'owns a 100 Million dollar company' and knows when boards aren't legal, he didn't even test the other guns! Hahaha the king of making boards that made cheating easier pointing out illegal guns that don't use his boards... He had something like 7 guns pulled from that team. What a way to win a game huh? If you can't beat them, cheat them!

People from all over and with all kinds of guns were worrying themselves trying to make sure they could never under any test get a double shot, and to be honest it just wasn't possible. People were running with debounce up as high as they could go and yet with the way the judges were testing guns you could still make them 'illegal'.

The PSP (and NPPL) need to come up with a set test or better definitions. And definitely not just listen to jealous people who 'own 100 Million dollar companies) *think Austin powers movie*.

It was the biggest cluster *screw up* when it comes to 'bouncing guns' ever.

In effect the only people it caught were the innocent ones. The ones really trying to cheat would never have been caught by this idiocy.

I went around testing guns that had been deemed illegal and legal, and whereas there were genuinely some dodgy stuff going on, I'd say the majority of people penalised were not guilty of any intentional wrong doing.

There became issues with electronic guns the day they were invented.

Now it is definitely becoming a problem at all levels. But the current solutions are only catching the innocent.

Right now the only way to make sure your gun is legal for the stupid test being used in LA, IS TO CHEAT in the software.

Is that they way they want to force things to go?

[RoadDawg]

Wow Manike. Sounds like it was terrible behind the scenes. No wonder I seen quite a few 5 minute penalties up on the boards.

[Jack & Coke]

Pulling guns that double or triple shoots per single pull (fast or slow pull)= good

Inconsistant, untrainned, subjective, and lobbying ($100 million company owners influence) of refs checking markers = bad

[manike]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Pulling guns that double or triple shoots per single pull (fast or slow pull)= good

SO removing 90% of all electro guns there would be a good thing? How many times are you allowed to pull the trigger to get a two shot situation? What about the kid where they went through a hopper and a pod? is that a good thing?

I would certainly have to remove all e-mags in hybrid mode or that could be put into hybrid mode because every single one would have been illegal under these checks. They were pulling the triggers so slowly that you would get one shot from the electo and then one from the mechanical.

It's real easy to stop electro guns from getting two shots per slow pull... by cheating in the software, but do we want to go there? It's not so easy to do it by physical means, because of the recoil of the gun. Almost every electro gun could have been deemed 'illegal' by the way they were checking.

Rare and random recoil induced extra shots under slow pull conditions should not be a reason to penalise. Maybe warn, but not penalise. Regular or intentional abuse should be penalised in my opinion.

If it does it under playing conditions it should be penalised, but if it only happens under special and hard to achieve circumstances that don't relate to playing then what is the value?

[Jack & Coke]

LOL!

listen (err read) all of these guys complaining about their E-blades not passing the chrono refs bounce tests...

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=435414

I like the refs agressive checking. It should serve notice to the payers who have illegal trigger setups. However, I also agree with manike that there should be a standard procedure for checking for bounce.

[Jack & Coke]

Manike,


I agree that shooting a hopper full of paint just to test for bounce is bad.

I also see your point about pulling slow to induce bounce. However, I have seen an illegal setup (WASed Angel on debounce 1) where if you pull fast or hard, the trigger will not bounce. But if you pull slow and light, the gun will double or triple shoot. So how do you test and catch this illegal gun if the ref is not allow to pull slow?

I think the refs should be able to pull any ways they can, but within reason and good faith.

[manike]

J&C I'm yet to see any installation of a WAS board in an Angel that I would consider legal to start with.

All the ones I have seen have a way to secretly (or at least not openly) bypass the eyes (and thus prevent bounce). To me that's wrong to start with.

I'm also yet to see any gun run with WAS and a debounce of 1 and be still be legal so that's the second cheat already with that set up...

I'm still unsure why if you can get your gun to do something in a non playing situation, why it would matter in the playing situation? Does the guy who has this angel play by pulling the trigger softly and slowly? or by pulling it hard and fast? ;)

[Jack & Coke]

He plays by walking slowly and "coming off the trigger". He gets the trigger to vibrate, increasing his rof.

It's crazy.. I did it myself when I checked his gun out. On debounce 1, if I slowly pull the trigger (even slowly walking the trigger) the gun will turn into a machine gun.

If I pulled quick and hard, holding the trigger tight, the gun will only shoot once.

I'm just saying it's not a bad thing to check for bounce by pulling slow and soft.

If people want to cheat and run their guns at very low debounce settings, then they should be prepared to have their guns pulled if caught. Not whine about the refs.

If their guns boucne due to excessive recoil (i.e. E-Blades, timmys) then they should think ahead and reinstall a stronger magnet or return spring.

The "lightness" of the trigger pull has gotten out of hand. Excluding special RT setups (cut on/off pin and 900+ input pressure), you never had trigger bounce issues back in the day of all mech guns.

[trains are bad]

This thread is why we should play with a bps cap and allow full auto.

The time has come.

[Halliday]

Originally posted by trains are bad
This thread is why we should play with a bps cap and allow full auto.

The time has come.

I agree.

[Woogie12]

Yes that's true, but it's going to be a lot of work and money that most companies, players, and leagues aren't going to want to shell out, which is going to make it very hard. IMO, the best way to cap markers would be to make everyone shoot revvies, but you would have to get all leagues to do this at once or teams would just jump to the other league that doesn't require this. Also, it would put Odyssey out of business.

[Lohman446]

We need to get rid of refs that are on a power trip...

if you pull my trigger over a three second period (or my opponents) and get six shots, or nine, or even 15 I really don't care... If you find a spot that it goes machine gun, I do. Lets get real with the rules, lets aim the rules to enforce what we are trying to enforce... not a random occasion that is going to happen with any electronic or mechanical device. Ok, not any, but get the point.

And the manufacturers making rules (Dye, WAS) and then enforcing them is just stupidity.

[manike]

Originally posted by Halliday
I agree.

I don't.

[Beemer]

Originally posted by manike


I don't.

Care to elaborate?

[Chris42050]

Do these guns that shoot extra shots when pulling the trigger slowly shoot faster than the person pulling the trigger as fast as they can?

[Ultimator]

I deleted my other post because it was worded sort of wrong. I was being sarcastic and what I was meaning to get across is that cheater boards are the steroids of paintball.

I think that some people get so caught up in playing tournaments, that they depend on it and they need an extra advantage. Just like you won't see a middle-school track runner juicing, it's not likely you're going to see a woods baller shooting 20 bps because nothing is on the line.

I guess I'm playing devil's advocate here and I'm about to be crucified but so be it.

[Brophog]

I think what you see in the collaboration of Manike and J&C is that this is neither a manufacturer problem nor a testing problem, but a matter of both.

We need better standards for manufacturers to go by and more definitive testing procedures for detecting bounce. Neither one in itself is likely to be the solution.

[f3rr3+]

yeah the testing can get a little rediculous, i have gotten my blue light cricket board impulse to bounce :P go figure ;)

[Automaggot68]

Lol.
I think it's funny as Ignition was just on the cover of PB2Xtremes, I think. This post sounds ignorant, I just thought it was witty. I dont want to stir any flames up. Hell, I've done searches, and asked shoppes around town,and I'm still not sure was bounce is. I know I'll be told to search again, but heck, could someone please explain to me, while we're on the subject?

[SlartyBartFast]

Alright, it's a dumb question but I have to ask:

Why did they shoot a hopper and a pod of paint? Why didn't they just dry fire?

Unless you're paying for the paint, the only pain I'm going to shoot through my marker is what goes over the chrono or is used in a game.

The time has come for the AutoJudge(tm). ;)

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast

The time has come for the AutoJudge(tm). ;)

Agreed a machine that has a way to fire markers, has 1000s of different types of pulls programmed into it, a built in chrono, fires the marker 20 times - 5 of the "standard" style pulls, and then a sequence of 15 "odd and standard" pulls. with a 0-2 (except with a sequence of 10-15 quick ones) second random delays, to check for ramp, etc. If the marker fires more than 22 balls (some error allowed) or fires hot in that time, its disallowed.

[athomas]

The gun does kick differently when firing paint than when dry firing. There should be a plug that goes on the end of the gun to simulate a ball being fired. There should also be a mechanical testing device for pulling triggers. If the gun passes the test performed by the mechanical device then it is legal. The mechanical device could be set to perform several different pull rates and effects to simulate several different types of trigger pulls.

[Evil1]

I just have a question. There was this spoiled little 12 year old at the field I play at with an e orracle. Now this kid really didn't belong on the air ball field because he was getting lit up every other game and every time he did he kept crying to the refs that people were wiping. After the last game of the day, he was shooting his gun at the chrono area and I and a couple of my friends noticed that it sounded like it had bounce. We all checked it out and the trigger was so light and short that sometimes it would shoot 2 or three times if you tapped the trigger. There was no other modes on this gun either. Would that be considered illegal?

[lamby]

Yes, it would be illegal. What you are seeing is a reactive effect caused by the recoil. There is no bounce wit the e-blades optical switch, but if the ton and trel times (bounce settings of an e-blade) are set to low it will fire again the split second it fires because the trigger is set so light and will actually move enough to make it think it is another valid pull.

I like my light trigger so I have a high trel time (25ms-40bps max rof which keeps it from going full auto)

[Beemer]

Originally posted by Automaggot68

I've done searches, and asked shoppes around town,and I'm still not sure was bounce is. I know I'll be told to search again, but heck, could someone please explain to me, while we're on the subject?

Here ya go maggot.


Originally posted by RRfireblade
Basically, the "bounce" setting is a threshhold the software uses to determine if a signal was sent from the switch.It's purpose is to eliminate any switch signals that are created by anything other than a pull of the trigger.A switch has various states of conditions during the pull.It's not truly on/off if you check it at the most
fine degree.By dropping this "threshold",the software will recognize many more conditions than just on/off and fire when the switch is in between those to states.


Heres the link to the thread

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=121204&perpage=40&highlight=bounce&pagenumber=4

[SlartyBartFast]

There are two types of "bounce" and both are VERY easy to eliminate and test for.

Electronic switch noise should be designed out by the manufacturer/programmer. To test for it, a rapid string of trigger pulls and a count of how many shots are produced.

(a threshold for shot buffering should also be tested, a maximum delay between the last trigger pull and the last shot)

Bounce caused by recoil should be eliminated by a minimum trigger pull weight. Testing is easily performed by standardised tests.

Now, on the other hand I only have to smile at the absurd nature of the different threads I'm participating in. A marker bouncing due to recoil cannot be accurate. Yet in another thread I'm arguing with Palladin over what's statistically significant in terms of accuracy improvement. :rolleyes:

[Evil1]

Thank you guys, that cleared it up. A few guys that day were like "thats not legal" and some were like "yes it is" So thanks for clearing everthing up.

[lamby]

just FYI it is just as illegal or legal (based on the event) as an e-mag in "hybrid" mode. Exactly the same concept, but e-blades can do it so much faster than e-mags.

[Doc Nickel]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
Electronic switch noise should be designed out by the manufacturer/programmer. To test for it, a rapid string of trigger pulls and a count of how many shots are produced.

-You don't even have to do that. Simply adding a tiny capacitor, roughly 100 uF (microfarad) to the two contacts of the microswitch will drastically reduce the detectable "switch noise".

Note that the original LED Angels had exactly that, for that exact purpose, but no one else uses 'em, even though nearly every gun uses basically the identical microswitch.

However, the whole point is max ROF, no matter how you come by it. Five years ago, Bill Cookston tested a bunch of players, and the fastest of the group was a kid with an Angel that Bill said "looked like he was having an epileptic seizure" to get 13/sec. (Recorded on a PACT timer.)

Nowadays everyone thinks they can do 16 or 18 or 22/sec; Even with techniques like walking or raking, I highly doubt most players could hit those speeds without the "electronic help" designed into most boards.

Detect switch noise and queue a shot or two? By definition that's firing more times that you pull the trigger, and therefore by current NPPL standards it's a "cheater"- and dozens of guns have those features right out of the box.

Doc.

[madmolly]

I have been saying that same thing on a ton of boards and no one responds. They just say "well my gun shoots 24 BPS". I tell them to look down at their two fingers and if they think each one can hit a trigger 12 times a second they need medication. It is not reasonable. I shoot a max 10 ball a second and that is rocking the trigger. My new Angel 4 says I shoot 24 BPS on the counter. Do I believe it. Hell no. I don't shoot that fast unless I take out my eblade with bounce so bad I touch the trigger and hold the tank and it empties the hopper. IT all boils down to 24 BPS is not possible without bounce.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Doc Nickel
-You don't even have to do that. Simply adding a tiny capacitor, roughly 100 uF (microfarad) to the two contacts of the microswitch will drastically reduce the detectable "switch noise".

I have to disagree. For testing purposes you DO have to do as I suggested.

Otherwise the judges/field marshals would have to electronics experts and electronically test the boards to determine if the swithc bounce is eliminated.

Testing and enforcement have to be performed OUTSIDE the marker.

But it is true that eliminating it from a design standpoint is easy as you point out.

[xXHavokXx]

See for me there is two kinds of bounce, the youre ripping on the gun and it picks a up a few more bps in your stream bounce. Which I think is fine.

and

The every time I pull my trigger I lose control of my gun bounce.

I have both in my two guns, my dm4 bounces a little when youre walking at top speed and moving around a bit whereas my angel you can hit the trigger twice and it will empty the HALO without your hand on the trigger. I would never play like that but its fun to mess with. Ive seen people play with guns much like my angel, the old intimidator I had is capable of of 269 shots off one pull if you pull slow enough( not like you could do it in a game), alot of intimidators with WAS, or any gun with WAS is capable of the same.

How should we fix this? Ignore the first type of bounce as its not that bad and watch out for the uncontrollable kind like alot of timmies, WAS'd angels, WAS'd vikes and the like.

[hitech]

Nowadays everyone thinks they can do 16 or 18 or 22/sec; Even with techniques like walking or raking, I highly doubt most players could hit those speeds without the "electronic help" designed into most boards

While I agree that most peoples ROF claims are higher than they are capable of, I can hit 18 for 1 sec in 5 sec (based on miscues counter in version 4.0). That is on an emag without any switch noise. I have to use "manike's raking tecnique", but I can do it every time. For comparision, I can "pull" about 6, fan 10 and "normal rake" 12 or so.