Airgun's worst decesion in a long time

[John Dresser]

I tried to respond to this later on the board but the thread about Jeff being let go from Airgun Designs was closed.

I just want everyone here, including Tom, to know what a valuable person Jeff was at Airgun Designs. He invented new products (superbolt), cut down Airgun's bulky guns (like those Jax guns), and troubleshot more guns on his weekends off than most gun techs do during the entire week. Jeff was the reason I played with an RT for years after it was out of style do use an airgun product in the NPPL. Jeff is the reason dozens of people play with them.

I honestly thought Airgun paid Jeff to take those weekends off to play tournaments. I'm amazed at how much time and effort Jeff put into Airgun during those weekends. He teched guns for free and Chicago players and teams have been famous for using mags because of it. Have you been to a tournament out of state? No one uses mags anymore. CPSA players to NPPL players from Chicago do because of Jeff. You should have encouraged him to travel instead of trying to tie him to a workbench to do repair guns.

If Airgun has listened to Jeff more during the week they would know what is important to players. Lighter guns! Double triggers years ago! No huge front battery packs! Then maybe you wouldn't have to lay anyone off because sales would have been up instead of down.

Tom - I really hope you have called around and gotten Jeff a job locally in paintball. He was the best employee you ever had. You just didn't bother to notice.

John

[AGD]

Just to let you know I did not close the thread and I don't know who did. The fact remains that a small company like ours can not afford to have people leave at their convinience. If I do it for Jeff I have to do it for everyone and hence the problem. Yes Jeff had a lot of good ideas and was a great ambasador for our company. Jeff was in today and we arranged for him to tech the Masters at Challange Park. He is not interested in any full time job until after World Cup.


AGD

[John Dresser]

I'm glad you didn't close the last thread. Hopefully an overzealous moderator won't close this one.

Did you offer Jeff his job back? I would hope he wouldn't accept it. Jeff put 8 years into your company and I know if people there has listened to him more, you would have sold more guns.

Have you ever tried talking a 17 year old into buying an RT Pro? Every Piranha since 1999 has come with a double trigger but the RT Pro didn't. How silly is that? I know Jeff advocated double triggers but he was told not even modify his own personal gun. That is counter productive. If you guys had simply sold the RT like Jeff's personal gun right away, you would have sold more. Instead AGD waited years before making a cheap imitation (RT Pro) and left off the two most important parts - smaller lighter front grip and a simple double trigger.

Jeff made Airgun's guns better. However, AGD forced him to do it one gun at a time. He could have done it by the thousands. I've been an advocate of AGD for a long time because I've had the pleasure of playing with a gun Schreiber put together. I just wish AGD would have listened to him as much as I did.

John

[i-luv-my-rt]

I must say i can go either way on this one. Jeff was a great tech and always helped me out. But we do have to realize that Airgun is not a multi million dollar corporation with hundreds of employees. I think i remember Tom telling me at skyball that they had like 15 employees. I think Airgun does a fine job keeping up and we shouldnt complain. Dresser you do have a good point but we cant give one man all the credit for running Airgun's tech support and influence on players. I was the first one in my neighborhood with a mag now theres around 8 players in my town. Either way lets not get all hot about this. Thanks!!!

[Digital Me]

Originally posted by AGD
The fact remains that a small company like ours can not afford to have people leave at their convinience.
AGD

I realize there's all sorts of background I don't know here, but you can't call going to a tournament allowing people to leave "at their convinience [sic]." Those things are scheduled out at the begining of the year.

Jeff playing paintball with his tournament team is what inspired me to buy an E-Mag. I sold it later once I found out it didn't really work very well and it was really front heavy. I bought it because I wanted to get jeff (although I didn't even know his name at the time) to trick it out for me.

Have you ever seen Jeff at an event? I was under the impression at the Zap IAO that he was being paid to be there. From what you said it sounds like he wasn't. He works on guns and coaches mag teams that he doesn't even know. Jeff is the man.

DM

[Bub3814]

I have been away for a few weeks so... while I am upset that Jeff is gone for the time being, I understand where Tom is coming from. I was never aware that Tom had so few working for him. With the way Airguns handles the company, I figured Tom had atleast 60 or 70 people working for him.

While I do not know first hand how hard it is to run a company, I worked for my father over the summer and I see the stress he goes through...but he has over 200 working for him...

[Chef123161]

John,
I don't think you are getting the big picture here. The recent events in the U.S. have caused an economic slow down (its starting to pick up a bit now.) Airgun Designs is such a small company that it cannot afford to have employee's "floating" around (from what I can tell.) I am sure that if Tom could, he would have kept Jeff around. I am guessing this purely a business related decision. I am sorry if this comes off as a flame but it is/was not intended to be.

-Ben

[John Dresser]

Jeff was let go on September 11th. He wasn't let go because of the terrorist attack or the results of it. However, today's economic times will probably make it harder for him to get another job especially in a boomtime industry like paintball.

I'm not sure what you mean about Jeff "floating" though. He worked as a senior technician at AGD. I first talked to him when I bought my first RT (#505 I think). I had many many problems with it and after a few weeks I realized that Jeff was the most informed person there. Everyone else answering the phones was talking out of their a$$ and caused more problems with my RT than they fixed.

John

[Chef123161]

Jeff was not fired he was laid off along with three other people the same day. Unfortunately the economic slowdown has forced us to do this. Jeff is a very dedicated paintball player and a long time friend of ours. He has to leave 6 times a year to play tournaments. When he does, repair guns and final testing of Emags gets backed up for weeks and puts a major strain on the company. We would have had to tell him that he couldn't go to tournaments anymore and he wouldn't be able to do that so this was our only choice. We are talking with other paintball companies in the area to try and get him a job. He can now collect his profit sharing money without penalty to get him out of his financial bind.

AGD


By floating I meant it looked like he left many times in the year for tournaments and such, so he wasnt full time (Again, I do not know him personally so I do not know the extent of this but this is just from what I can tell.) You just got on AGD's case about having him laid off and I guess I didnt like it too much because Tom stated why he did what he did in the closed thread.

-Ben

[dansim]

i think that agd is in respects correct about leaving on convienince suppose i decide that i want to play in the tourney saturday and i tell my employer friday "oh i wont be here tommoro im busy" that wont cut it and about jeff working for free fixing guns wow all i can say is that the cocker and angel techs that work at my local shop go to all the events (there required to) and fix the teams guns for free its a service to the gun holders provided by the gun makers you dont want to see a team lose because your gun broke and you couldnt fix it do you thats bad advertising
my .02

[OldSchoolMag]

I know this is a little off color, but...

I bought my 'mag used about 2 years ago. I remember I called about a thousand times to check what I had, make sure it was what it was supposed to be, and occasionally just to make sure "Why's that there again?" Anyways... I don't really remember who kept answering my phone, but I remember asking him what his cerial number was on his 'mag, and he replied "#00001". I talked to him about 50 times total, and his tone never changed, he was always helpful, curteous, and kind. He gave me a lot of help, more than I've gotten from local airsmiths even. Many times I had asked what I'm sure are monotonous questions, but he always sounded as if he had only heard them once or twice, but answered as if he had been thinking about the problem before I said it. If it was Jeff, thanks Jeff, and I'll cya around hopefully - if it wasn't, thanks #00001 and keep up the good work:)

/\G|} |2()>< !!!!!!

[DarkPhoenix]

I believe that Tom (AGD) keeps all the products with the serial number "00001".

[BDEKLEJR]

jeff's gone.......time to sell the rt and get a bushy........

[Tunaman]

You don't know me, and I don't know You or Jeff. But I find it appalling that you come on this public forum and criticize the business decisions of the owner of AGD! Your statements about AGD not doing as they should have are idiotic. Believe me, in case you haven't noticed, Tom knows exactly what he is doing, and apparently knows what is best for HIS company. If AGD is not the first to come out with something new so what. We are happy waiting for products to come out, knowing that when they do, the wait is always worth it. I know 500+ mag users on the East Coast, and I can tell you that not 1 of them knows Jeff, and not 1 of them purchased a Mag or AGD product just because Jeff was "keeping Mags alive". None of our mags are "Schreiberized" , but they rock just the same. The reason we purchase AGD products is because we don't like our stuff to break. These products are of the highest quality, and the customer service is second to none. I understand that Jeff was a great asset to AGD and I also know he is a top notch mechanic. But there are plenty of "Jeffs". And "Jeffs" will come and "Jeffs" will go over the years, but AGD will continue to thrive without them, knowing that there is a faithful clan of "MagMen" out there, all over the world, who will support AGD forever. You made it sound like AGD is going to go under because he they laid a couple guys off. How would you like it if Tom told you how to run your business? If you tried to tell me how to run mine, we would have a problem. Give the guy some credit! He is the leader in paintball technology and didn't earn that title by making "bad business decisions". Sorry for the rant, but it pissed me off.
LONG LIVE AGD! :mad:

[Grendel]

Actually Jeff had Automag Valve # 0001. Some guy that plays in the NPPL has RT #001. He was still playing with it as of Atlantic City. I remember seeing the RT recently, but the Automag one isn't played with.

Infamous G

[Miscue]

Word up my gilled friend.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Tunaman
Tom knows exactly what he is doing, and apparently knows what is best for HIS company.

These products are of the highest quality, and the customer service is second to none.

He is the leader in paintball technology and didn't earn that title by making "bad business decisions". Sorry for the rant, but it pissed me off.
LONG LIVE AGD! :mad:

Wow. Where to start? If Tom knew exactly what he was doing, would AGD be in danger of closing its doors? I don't think so!!!

The products are of high quality. The customer service was so good because their senior tech was one smart guy. Now he is gone.

Of course Tom has made bad decesions! When is the last time you shot an automag pump? How well does your Z-Grip work? Or is this too old skool, but that automatic CO2 cartridge changer was too little too late considering constant air was already around. Not to mention the big stupid battery pack on the front of every E-Mag. Sorry, every E-mag but Jeff's.

If there were more Jeffs in paintball, there wouldn't be so many guns down all the time. Every paintball gun would probably work.

Infamous G

[DarkPhoenix]

I'm sorry. I do not know Jeff. What I do know however is that this thread has become nothing more than a flame fest, this was entirely the reason why, I believe, the earlier thread was locked. Why are we questioning what is going on in the business aspects of Airgun Designs? What brought you into the world of Automags? Was it the product or was it one man? To my understanding, the automag was a product ahead of its time, it set the standard in the paintball world for a long time. To my limited understanding, the popularity of AGD is on the rise. It started with the introduction of the RT, Warp Feed, RT Pro, and now, the E-mag. I do not know of any other company that has such devotion to their product and their customers. I am sure that Jeff is a great man, a true technical wizard and genius, I have not heard of him till today. Why are we flinging dirt at this company for making, what must have been, a needed decision. Do you know what is going on in the halls of Airgun Designs? If not, and I am sure most of us do not, let us all keep out of their business. Great companies are not made by one person, but by many. I do not know if you realize it, but even we have helped propel AGD to where it is today and we will help it in the years ahead. Now let us all be good little children. Grow up and be good to one another.

[irbodden]

Please look at it this way, even though he might be a GREAT worker, the economy is taking a nose dive right now, small companies are really getting hurt by this. He was only a part time worker who had a very flexible schedule, and part time workers are the first to go during times like these. You do not have any clue what is going on moneywise behind the scenes at AGD, they maybe getting hurt just as bas (or worse) as everyone else. Please look at it from a realistic standpoint.

[Tunaman]

Originally posted by Grendel


Wow. Where to start? If Tom knew exactly what he was doing, would AGD be in danger of closing its doors? I don't think so!!!

The products are of high quality. The customer service was so good because their senior tech was one smart guy. Now he is gone.

Of course Tom has made bad decesions! When is the last time you shot an automag pump? How well does your Z-Grip work? Or is this too old skool, but that automatic CO2 cartridge changer was too little too late considering constant air was already around. Not to mention the big stupid battery pack on the front of every E-Mag. Sorry, every E-mag but Jeff's.

If there were more Jeffs in paintball, there wouldn't be so many guns down all the time. Every paintball gun would probably work.

Infamous G
Well it's like this...My Automag pump works just fine, my Z-Grip functions perfect, and my 6-pack is a necessity for those stock games we still play. And my Emag battery will stay where it is, and not rigged up like a ghetto rig. And I am waiting for another manufacturer to come out with a smaller "stupid battery pack" that will run my Warp, Revvy AND Emag. Not gonna happen. And one more thing...if you drifted over here from the Dojo, why don't you just drift back over there. I believe I speak for many in saying we don't need comments like yours in our forums.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by irbodden
He was only a part time worker who had a very flexible schedule, and part time workers are the first to go during times like these.


How was AGD's Senior Tech a "part time" worker? How did he have a "very flexible" schedule? Why are you making things up? According to this board, Jeff worked at Airgun 8 years.

I met Jeff at an event where he was very nice to my team. He made such an impression:

1. I was very impressed
2. I thought he was being paid to be there
3. I bought an E-Mag

Sorry, but I don't post on paintballdojo.com. Sorry I don't have as many posts as you do, but it doesn't mean I don't have a point.

G

[Army]

:cool:

[thei3ug]

Uhh, being a person who's been laid off within the past year and has had a firsthand experience with the economy...

I say stop raggin on AGD. Really. It's rediculous. Jeff was a good guy, but he's still getting agd benefits and working for them.

[Grendel]

First off, do you really know 500+ users of Automags. Second off, how many emags do you think Airgun sells... I have a friend who uses these guns exclusively, his name is PGP... Give him a call he is the captain of the Jax Warriors, and ask him what he thinks about the guns he has. Oh yeah then ask him how many times he asked Jeff to work on them. Maybe you and your 500 friends could become the best scenario team in paintball. The fact of the matter is AGD showed no loyalty to Jeff. Another thing I use an angel and I just had to pay WDP $25 in Atlantic City to fix it. As for cockers I know Danny Love and if you don't you can bet your sweet a$$ your getting charged to fix that cocker. When I mean loyalty, I am speaking of the last thread where it said that Jeff would have to be asked to quite tournament ball. That option was never even given, just a haul a$$ thank you for your time and give Rennick all your secrets so that he can try and keep my company afloat. In case you are wondering what that is... Rennick has made a deal with AGD to do a Shocktech version of the bulk mag. "EMAG"

In saying all of that you can post your response but know this Tom will not send you that free T-shirt you and your 500+ friends were hoping for.

Grendel


PGP's number is 904-274-2282 "Paul Bollenbach"

[krafty]

Please lock it. What I see here are a few of Jeff's friends trying to flame his former employer. Privately held company, private business. That's how it should be. If Jeff has a gripe, lets see him take legal action and claim wrongful termination. Otherwise, shut it.

[Arturus]

This is sad...

I would stick up for a friend, just as much, but not in this fashion. Absolutely without class... and nor have you heard 'both' sides of the story.

From what I know of Jeff so far, he sounds like a great guy and even better, someone who cared for the company - AGD in this case - and genuinly did his best to serve it's customers. And you know what? He sounds like a great guy off the job and the field as well, according to all the positives I've read of him.

Chances are, I might have even had a conversation over the phone with him when I had problems with my marker.

but... I have a feeling Jeff himself can... Take care of himself? And I also have a feeling, that Jeff and Tom have spoken about this issue. Who are you and the others, to come here and points fingers and generalize the whole issue, even belittling Jeff in my opinion, in the whole process.

I'll go even further to say that you're probably not a bad guy at all, and in any other situation, we've probably would have had a decent conversation. It shows character that you would stand up for a friend and speak for him... but guess what? I think I speak for the majority, who visit this public forum, when I say this (along with all the other posts) isn't doing Jeff, much good at all.

Not at all.

By the way, my apologies as well. I don't know the whole story of how this started or where it'll lead to. You and the others who have posted in 'protest', probably do know a lot more of what's been happening. This still isn't a way to go about it though.

[AGD]

Army, I opened this one back up because I feel that even though this is getting into a flame people will think we are censoring the subject to protect ourselves. I am on the hot seat here and I believe I am the only president of a paintball company that would be willing to sit here in public and get shot up. The same thing happened last time when we let Sparky go years ago and people said the EXACTLY same thing, but of course no one talks about him now.

Of all the paintball gun manufacturers there were in the eighties there are only three left now, Worr Games, Tippman and AGD. Sure I make mistakes, but I must have made a few less than a lot of other gun manufacturers. It's not that we didn't listen to Jeff, we were too busy doing other things like military guns. Up until last week military stuff might have looked pretty stupid but I sure have a lot of people from DC calling us now.

Custom guns are a great idea, light weight Super Bolts are a great idea and I give Jeff all the credit. Only problem is they wear out, sometimes REALLY fast. Now Jeff couldn't solve that problem so if you would like one that may or may not last see him, if you want one with a replacable sleeve then you have to wait for me to solve that problem.

The most important thing in AGD is NOT me, the managers or the staff, it's the customers. Right or wrong I try to make decisions that will ultimately benefit them. This forum and the 2000 people that come here every day are evidence of that. These people here are a cross section of who AGD needs to listen too and we do. I didn't design the Intelliframe, I didn't name the Intelliframe and no one at AGD packaged the Intelliframe, everyone HERE did. The back of the package has the name of the AGD customer that created it in tribute to his genius.

A lot of times I purposely do not listen to customers if what they want is something that doesn't do what they think it does. For this I am constantly belittled by others in this industry "give them what they want, who cares if it works" I am not now, nor have I ever been a snake oil salesman. I would rather die bankrupt and pennyless than have one person come up to me and say I lied to them about my products. I will be the first to admit we are loosing the snake oil war. It's all I can do to keep quiet when I see young guys work their tails off to buy something THAT DOES ABSOULUTELY NOTHING!! Of course there are a thousand experts that will tell you exactly why it does work so Tom must be wrong..... fine I'm wrong. If I didn't listen to Jeff it's because I didn't believe the idea had a basis in fact.

So that is my rant, there is more to the Jeff story but that's between him and me. I didn't wake up in the morning and decide that this is a great day to lay off a bunch of people, it was a calculated, long studied, carefully weighed plan that had to happen. Jeff is a friend of mine and in the end this move will help him get out of his current situation and get him going again. He came in and we talked for a half hour today about a lot of different things. If his friends wedding doesn't conflict he will be teching at the Masters. If he wants to setup shop Shrieberizing guns we will support him in that endeavor, it's up to him.

Right now there is a recession going on and for most of you this is a new experience. The good times are over people, there are now thousands of people out of work here in Chicago and it's getting worse every day. The rest of the staff here at AGD agrees with everything I did. I hope this was the right move to air our dirty laundry in public, most inteligent businessmen would say it isn't. This is another one of those things that someone can point too later and say "it was stupid for him to do that..."

AGD

[magking1971]

Thanks tom.

[automagseeker]

Well said Mr. Kaye, and thanks for clearing this up for me anyways, you still have me as a customer even tho I am seling my mag, b/c I am buying another. Thanks for the great company and customer service. :)

[Arturus]

Originally posted by Grendel

Wow. Where to start? If Tom knew exactly what he was doing, would AGD be in danger of closing its doors? I don't think so!!!

Infamous G

Have you ever been in the 'business' world before? Run your own business? Had business partners? Worked at a major corporation?

Or hell, even been a customer to a company that could care less about you?

Then you'll understand, when I say this. Many companies that aren't in danger of closing it's doors, are often the same ones who could care less about you and those you speak of.

Cheap material, low quality, 2nd rate customer service... All ways of making money and have the ability to give a company huge profit margins. Are you honestly on here, to criticize the way a company does business?

I mean look, BE is doing a great job... Good business decisions right? (sorry, BE has it's role in the industry and I respect it, but had to use some real world example). I'm sure they're on a constant look out for new customers.

[riooso]

Thanks Tom! I am a mag user, end of line. I have seen many "quality" things in my life disappear. What you, and we, have here is exceptional and worth protecting, not alway easy, not always perfect.

m2c

Rio Oso

[DiRTyBuNNy]

i want to come out here and say this...and i know some people will say it has nothing to do with this topic..but i beg to differ..i used to be a 100% auto****** guy...and they always fixed my gun when i sent it in..no problems..but see..if i had to send my gun back to the manufacturer everytime i had a problem (because the airsmiths around her suck) i would just get bored out of my mind and never get to play...that's why i traded my auto****** for a mag..it works fine..i don't have to screw with it and hey..i've got 4 stars on it..if i want to send it in and get rebuilt..i've got the option of doing it 4 times..i'm probably going to send it in soon since i've used it perfectly fine for a couple of days playing..but i don't know what the kid before me did to it..and hey..by the time i send it in the nickel intelli's might be out...and what does this mean to all of you out there..? some people may say nothing...but i'll tell you something..i've been around paintball for a long time...and nobody builds a marker like AirGun..and the fact that Tom can whip everybody up about new products that you may not see forever like the New Quasi-Delrin Bolt, and a Valve that doesn't chop shows that you guys are passionate about your markers..and even if this passion may piss Tom off sometimes..i'm sure he takes a little pride in the fact that people really love AirGun and their mags...

[Maxd Out]

I support AGD fully. I'm sure Toms decision was the right one. Why would he let go his senior tech without substantial reason? I dont know the first thing about business and I'm sure 75% of the others dont as well. Dont try to criticize a company for trying to stay competetive and doing what is best for it. Business decisions are best left to the top people and in this case they were.

[irbodden]

Originally posted by Grendel


How was AGD's Senior Tech a "part time" worker? How did he have a "very flexible" schedule? Why are you making things up? According to this board, Jeff worked at Airgun 8 years.



Quote from Tom Kaye

"He has to leave 6 times a year to play tournaments. When he does, repair guns and final testing of Emags gets backed up for weeks and puts a major strain on the company. We would have had to tell him that he couldn't go to tournaments anymore and he wouldn't be able to do that so this was our only choice. "

During a recession people like this get laid off first. I am sure hes going to find a job in the industry again, but this is a REALLY lame post. Lock the thread.

[cphilip]

We have already been through this. This is a personnel matter between Jeff and Tom. You already have a thread for this matter. Tom left it open for you. I feel Tom gave you all an explanation. More than he had to give. Closing this thread as it is a duplicate. Go to the other one as Tom requested.

[Dubstar112]

Some of the people need to realize what a business is like to run, and understand that Tom most likley the best to his abilities to keep things working. I think some of the people here are walking over Tom and telling him how to run AGD, which im sure he has a better understanding of what is really going on.... :o

[cphilip]

Originally posted by John Dresser
I'm glad you didn't close the last thread. Hopefully an overzealous moderator won't close this one.

I closed it and its obvious why as I clearly commented on that before I did so. I closed it openly and for clearly explained reasons. It was not done secretely or for censorship. It was done for reasons of privacy between and employer and employee.

Here is what I said on that thread: Am I the only one that thinks we should not be discussing AGD's Personnel situations here? Tom was open enough to give you an explaination even though he didn't have to. Now let's keep it a private matter for the both of them.

Case closed.


And I would do it again, for the same reasons, if Tom hadn't already overruled that.

Overzealous? That seems to apply to you John, rather than me. I still feel that this is not a matter that should be discussed outside of the employee and employer. But see what happened even after Tom reopened this one? Another one was started. So I had to close it for duplicity. I rest my case. I think it's none of your or my business. Period.

[PsychoMag]

Last time I checked, we are all here for one main reason, we all want or are lucky enough to own an automag in some way. Some of us had them and had gotten rid of them, some are spending every penny to put one together from scratch.

Tom Kaye, created a marker like no other. We have all seen the spyder mocks, which are al the same design as the impy/bushy/EM1. Where is there a copy of a mag? there isnt. Each one of these markers is a quality assured 100% backed mid/high level marker.

I understand Tom's perspective on this decision, and respect it. If you don't respect it, thats fine, but dont flame someone who does.

I have used AGD guns since their introduction. I have played through the runodwn issues, the liquid problems, I have strayed as wel, trying other markers like cockers, electros, and an angel. What did I buy? another mag. I am the proud owner of RTP00440, and I am always complimented on its accuracy and consistency. I know about the problems of the RT with consistent velocity, but I overcame that. At the field, everyone knows not to bother with my RT for fps.

If you don't like some of his ideas, such as the ZGrip, why are they such a hot item right now? Now that they have been discontinued, everybody wants to get their hands on them. As far as the 2x trigger issue. I personally shoot just as fast with a 1x. If you look at my RT, you will see a totally stock RT. stock gripframe and all. If you dont like the heavy foregrip take it off. I experimented with that myself. The foregrip is heavy to counter the weight of the valve. I will tell you this. after a tourney day, with the foregrip, I was fine, when I took it off my arm hurt a bit because it was always countering the weight of the valve. People should tkae those thins into consideration before the flame about heavy foregrips. as far as the emag...what can I say, the gun is perfect, the battery is awkward, but it needs to be there. I have seen it replaced with the RT foregrip, and the battery instlled on the tank. Thats a rig job waiting to go wrong.

Tom, as the owner of a company that has prospered over the last 10 years, did what he had to do. What about all of the companies that offered the "HOTT" new marker...GONE...where's that NOVA?huh? what about those tribals that were the hottest things? GONE. Where's AGD? Still kickin'. What about that cocker? try matching a stock cocker to a stock mag...theres a reason why 30 companies make a version...WGP cant make it on their own. What about a stock mag? I love mine. I use it for recball and scenarios. Just think about where YOU could be if tom made poor judgement calls, maybe AGD could have been that Tribal that is history.

well i'm done...sorry so long winded...:)

just my $.02

[Dragoon]

DarkPhoenix
You hit the nail on the head.

Until you are the owner of AGD, you don't have all the information needed to make the hard/important decisions. Decisions like this one would have had more had more variables influencing it then what we could speculate. I'm sure it was a very tough decision for AGD.

Jeff, I'm sure you will be missed, both at AGD, and by your customers.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by AGD


The most important thing in AGD is NOT me, the managers or the staff, it's the customers. Right or wrong I try to make decisions that will ultimately benefit them. This forum and the 2000 people that come here every day are evidence of that.

If I didn't listen to Jeff it's because I didn't believe the idea had a basis in fact.

If his friends wedding doesn't conflict he will be teching at the Masters. If he wants to setup shop Shrieberizing guns we will support him in that endeavor, it's up to him.

Right now there is a recession going on and for most of you this is a new experience.

AGD

I'm trying to point out what a service Jeff was to "his" customers. If you owned a Mag, Jeff went to bat for you no matter if he ws on the clock or not. You keep critisizing him for leaving when thats actually when he brought in new business. Giving up that kind of loyalty should put you on the hot seat. You should have to defend yourself.

It is obvious you didn't listen to Jeff when what he was telling you was based on fact. Half of his pro team - Farside plays with the best working mags on the circuit. Most aren't even E-Mags. Ask Jax Warriors - they would love to go back to RT's if they just worked that well. You can't imply that Jeff was a snake oil salesman when he cut down those bulky mags and made the best shooting mags out there. That is a a cheap flame Tom. The proof is right there. Shoot one of their guns and you'd see. Ask Renick Miller or PGP.

I hope you do work everything out with Jeff. I hope you do get Jeff another job in the paintball industry. I hope you make sure AGD gets Jeff everything you own him in a timely manner. I know how many people bought your products because they associated Jeff with AGD. You should live up to your side of the bargain.

If Jeff was really let go on the 11th of September and it was a long decesion due to the recession like you said it was, how did you get advance notice on the plane strikes? You can't say that firing Jeff was based on events that happened that morning.

Sorry about the post to Tuna Man and Tom last night. That was my room mate. Not that it wasn't true.

Infamous G

[Restola]

I dont want to sound unfriendly, but I really dont care at all what happens at AGD. And I doubt I'm the only one. I trust Tom to make the right decisions that will lead to the best product for me if and when I decide to buy another mag.
I'm sure their are openings in the industry for whoeevr this guy is. Imagine being laid off with 60,000 other people with specialized tech skills from the airlines.

[skipdogg]

Just thought i'd title this post the same as what this thread has turned into.

It's life....**** happens....get over it!

Tom owns AGD and none of us do. Now until i win the lottery and buy him out, you all have to deal with what he does.

Peace at AGD & AO!!!!!

[ben_JD]

Who is Jeff?

I have owned my Automag for 9 years (same one) and no one person persuaded me to buy it; the product sold itself. Good luck to all those who lose their jobs in this current economy.

[udtseal]

Why dosent everyone just let Jeff talk for jeff....I have never heard of him and bought my Mini and E-Mag cause I felt that they were the best products on the market. I think its noble that AGD and Tom have come on here and spoke about company problems openly. I've never seen anything like it before, but come on people. This is none of our business. Lets be adults and let them work it out.

[StevoC]

My comment to this is pretty much the same as the others who support AGD's in their decision: It's their business, and only they know what can be done to protect it. Yeah, Tom gives great products and great customer service, but all must remember this: he does it to make a living. His business and family (not in that particular order) should come first and any decisions made should be in his/their best interests. I don't see how anyone can not respect him for that.

Will customer service change? Maybe. Will the product change? Possibly. Will AGD do the most they possibly can to make all of us happy mag owners and to ensure we have great working products? Absolutely.

Tom, please don't see this as me speaking for you...I understand that: 1) You own us no explanation as to how you run your business, 2) You need to make desicions that will benefit yourself, your family, and your company, and 3)You are sharing your views of the situaion voluntarily with no obligation in doing so.

Sounds like Jeff (and I don't know Jeff) partly made this desicion by making his tournament life more important than work...which is OK by all means. But look at the whole picture and think of what you would do if you were in AGD's shoes...

Just my 3 cents.

[agdjon]

For most of you who don't know me, my name is Jon and I am one of the Factory Techs here at Airgun Designs. Ok I need to put in 2 more cents to this thread. All of you (well most of you) talk like Jeff is Airgun Designs. Jeff definitely was an asset to the company but remember, Airgun Designs is mostly the customers. Sure Tom may have started the company but without you guys, Airgun Designs would not exist. And you all talk (or so it may seem that way) that Jeff is the only tech here and is also the only one who works on his own time at event. This is not true, Tom Vale, who used to be the senior tech but is now Quality Assurance, also goes to events on his free time during the weekends helping anyone he can. I also do the same during CPSA events last year and now when I go Rec-Balling. If you are going to start bashing me saying "but you never been to a NPPL event" you are wrong. I played a couple of NPPL events but that goes back to 95 when I was on Team Fox (even though I was not a tech but I always helped others if I knew what to do). And BTW, there are TRUE AIRGUN DESIGNS satellite techs who knows just as much as we do at the factory. Techs like Kayle M, Rod D, Rob H, Brad N, and Ron F are all very knowledgable and treat customers the same way Jeff or anyone who has worked at AGD when they are at events. The reason for this is because we pride ourselves on customer service. Ask anyone out there. Ask the people whose markers I have worked on. Heck even ask those who I have driven out to just to help them out. I remember I had a practice sometime last year and I told the guy whose marker was down that I would be there. Practice ended up being cancelled but I showed up anyway because I keep my promises. I know that if I were to help this guy out it would come back to the company 2 fold because of the word of mouth he would spread about us.

I like Jeff and I hate seeing him leave but Tom has to make decisions for the company. Jeff and I hung out every once in a while. We had fun talks, drank beers, all the good stuff. It may have sucked that 3 people had to leave but there is nothing you, me, or anyone out there (unless someone donated several million dollars to us :) )can do about it and it does suck. The recession has hit everyone hard. It just became worse when we were attacked.

OK I seem to be digressing and thanks for reading.

BTW Please stop the bashing. It is not going to change the past and it certainly cannot help the future.

[cphilip]

Well said Jon. I for one cannot tell you how many times Jon has helped me out. And he has even helped out others at my request. And I see Kayle on here a lot too. Spoken to him a few times myself. No man is a island you see?

Also notice all the great customer service from the front office, JoAnn, and now the new gal Marcia coming on line here and getting involved.

I don't know all the others names from behind the scenes they all do the great customer service thing for us. It's contagious once caught.

And it’s still a personnel matter, which we must and should respect. You’re getting way more insight than you are entitled too.

[Arturus]

Originally posted by Grendel


You can't imply that Jeff was a snake oil salesman when he cut down those bulky mags and made the best shooting mags out there. That is a a cheap flame Tom.

Infamous G

What are you smoking? Sorry mods, had to say that.

Read Tom's post again, he never called or even remotely implied that Jeff was a 'snake oil salesman'. He was referring to the fact that you directly pointed to Tom's decisions, that you believed to be the cause of the downturn in AGD's business. Tom responded by saying that if he was not a 'snake oil salesman', like some of the other business owners in the industry; who simply provide whatever the customers demand, without a thought to if it actually benefits them - for the reasons of PROFIT alone - then he wouldn't be in the current position he is in.

He never once referred to Jeff as being a 'snake oil salesman'. Before you keep jumping to conclusions, read what's written. Listen to both sides. Most of all, leave this between Jeff and Tom.

[Dubstar112]

Heh, will jeff ever join AO?

[jas142]

This really upsets me. AIRGUN DESIGNS IS A PRIVATE BUSSINESS. Pleeeeaaaaaasssssee, let tom do what he feels is best for his company, and don't criticise him! He was nice enough to respond to these things! How would you feel if you owned a bussiness, had to let an employee go, only to be yelled at by every customer! Jeez...

[Hasty8]

I think everything that could be said has been said.

The one thing that I would like to point out is how well Tom has handled this. He reopened the thread and willingly stood naked in front of us all.

How many othe business owners have that kind of dedication to the buyer? And I do not just mean in the industry. I mean anywhere.

Tom does what he can to make the best markers for the price. He is not a BE or even a Tippman. He sells top of the line markers. That means he will be catering his wares to a smaller group of the demographic then other companies will. His are not Talons, Phantoms, Spyders or the like. The Yugos of the paintball world.

His are the Corvettes and the Mustangs.

I would say that the Angel and the Cocker are more like the Ferrari and Lamborghini. They perform a tad better then the American version but they are really just high priced European fluff pieces. (Sorry but I had to take that stab).

That being said, I think we all need to step back a let Tom have the reins. It is his company but he doesn't act that way. And he also fces up to his mistakes, another big win for him in my book.

He has also stated, several times, that the break up was amicable and that there was no animosity between him and Jeff. I say good. Jeff was in a rut and wanted his career to go in a direction that was not compatible with AGD. And you get upset over that.

IT's something to be proud of. So many people today allow themelves to get stuck in a rut so that they die old and unhappy.

I wish Jeff all the joy in the world, and I am willing to bet vital parts of my anatomy that if he decided that he wanted to come back to AGD that Tom would do what he could to make it happen.

[irbodden]

Never talked with Jeff, but let me say Jon is a great tech, I have called him a bunch. Thanks brotha :D

No one here knows all the facts, and I doubt any 12 year old on the internet is smarter than Tom, so lets stop the stupidity.

[AGD]

And with all of this said I believe everyone has had their say on the topic. I will now lock this thread so we can go on to other business.

Thanks

AGD