Super Bolt Update with PICS (you guys are driving me nuts)

[AGD]

All of AO,

Ok you guys are pounding me left and right about this thing so here are the pics. On the left is a bolt that went through about three tournaments, the middle is a brand new one, on the right is the bolt without the Delrin sleeve. As you can see there is a wear problem so you have to replace the sleeve periodically. We are working on this and other interelated stuff so please stand by.

Thanks

AGD

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/superbolt2.jpg

[Zumina]

is the wear problem atributed to the super tight bore/step bore barrels most tournament players use?

[emaggot4life]

The one that went through the tournaments, is that a foamie on it?

[Monsta]

ouch ....talk about used and abused

[lonsch]

Tom when you are saying the delrin sleeve needs to be replaced. Do you mean it needs replaced because its looks chewed up, like the on it the PIC, or because of some other reason like blowback. I don't think that the bolt sleeve would need replacing as much as you are thinking it will need if its just for looks.

[Gunga]

I'd guess that it gets worn out by rubbing up against the spring thousands of times. Lots of relatively sharp edges on that spring, not to mention that the spring metal is a lot harder than the delrin.

[squall]

I would venture a guess that it has nothing to do with cosmetics, just tolerances...

[AGD]

It can get a lot more worn out before it starts really causing problems. I am just afraid some father will call me complaining his son just bought the thing with his last dollar and now it's falling apart. See what I mean?

AGD

[Omicron]

how much? how many times do you have to repliace it? and can I order some with my intelliframe (when you make the matte black ones)

[cphilip]

QUOTE:you guys are driving me nuts

:D

[st6212]

Tom,

Have you ever considered using something other than delrin?

How about Nylatron (I think its called) it's supposed to be more durable than delrin.

I think there are a few cocker bolts around that are made out of Nylatron now instead of delrin.

[ben_JD]

I remember fondly the days of shooting the PMI-3 Piranhas and the satisfying thump the hammer made inside the marker. You knew you were firing every time you pulled the trigger. :)

[RiceRocket]

The "nose" of the bolt on the right looks different. What's the reasoning? Will it be a foamie bolt also?

Not sure if this is possible or was considered already - If it is the friction/contact between the delrin and the bolt spring, can the bolt spring be made in a tubular shape, like a...a coiled snake, so it wouldn't have the "edges" of the current bolt spring?

[Gunga]

Originally posted by AGD
It can get a lot more worn out before it starts really causing problems. I am just afraid some father will call me complaining his son just bought the thing with his last dollar and now it's falling apart. See what I mean?

AGD

Dunno how feasible it'd be, but how about a thin metal jacket on the outside of the delrin sleeve? It'd serve as a 'sacrificial' wear surface while still having most of the weight advantage of the 'pure' delrin sleeve? Sort of like an aluminum honeycomb panel. Strong but light.

Or...instead of a metal sleeve around the delrin, have a few metal rails along the length of the bolt to take the wear and tear? Same advantage of a metal sleeve, but it'd keep even more of the weight savings of the pure delrin sleeve. It'd kinda look like one of those 'Crossfire' barrels. Except with delrin inbetween the rails of course. :)

Though I imagine that that either idea might have some tough manufacturing problems. :(

[Zarak]

RiceRocket and Gunga beat me to it. I was thinking of the same thing... rounded spring and/or some kind of metal cover over the delrin sleeve. Are you guys reading my mind or what?

Tom, would this be possible?

[Gunga]

Originally posted by Zarak
RiceRocket and Gunga beat me to it. I was thinking of the same thing... rounded spring and/or some kind of metal cover over the delrin sleeve. Are you guys reading my mind or what?

Tom, would this be possible?

Of course we were reading your mind. I dunno about RiceRocket, but I work for Miss Cleo! ;)

Miss Cleo is getting really annoying, isn't she?

[BlackVCG]

The problem with a rounded spring is that it wants to coil up on itself when compressed. The square spring is able to compress so that the coils compress on one another.

[ang310fd347h]

maybe a delrin spring or something or sort of softer than deltrin material springs are cheaper than bolts :)

[ang310fd347h]

hey Black Vcg u have one of these bolts that i can test?

[BlackVCG]

No. Also, using a softer spring material will result in more broken bolt springs. When the bolt spring breaks, your gun is useless. Where as, with the bolt sleeve wearing out, it's something that happens over time and even if it's very worn, the gun will still be able to fire. As for putting a wear sleeve on the outside of the delrin sleeve or wear rails, for one you'll run into manufacturing problems and the cost of the bolt will be much more because it's more difficult to produce and you'll have the problem of your wear attachments falling off and causing gun malfunction. Your metal sleeve would have to be a certain thickness to keep it from cracking under use and I should think that the thickness you'd need to make it durable would put enough weight on the bolt that there wouldn't be much difference in it and the SS bolt. See, if you're going to put a metal sleeve on it, you're going to have to turn down the delrin sleeve to keep within the diameter tolerance of the bolt casing. So now you have less delrin and metal in place of what delrin you took off, thereby the weight will go up more than just putting a really thin sleeve on the outside of the delrin sleeve.

[ben_JD]

I think, naively perhaps, that we should just buy the upgrade (if not made a standard option in the marker) and buy several replacement sleeves. I don't know a lot about machining delrin, but how expensive could they be? Seems that we could buy batches of 3 or 5 and replace them as needed just like the O-rings, bolt springs and foamies.

[Webmaster]

Instead of delrin - can you use a harder composite. What about some of those high tech ceramics?

[Gunga]

How about milling away some of the excess stainless on the outside of the bolt in order to lighten it up? Mill in some wear rails. Or I maybe they could be extruded in a star pattern and fastened onto a stainless base?

If it's milled, you might have to temper it to relieve the stresses from the machining...might even have to heat treat it to harden the wear rails too. More complicated...which means more $$. :(

Here's an idea of what I was thinking of. Sorry it's so rough, but I don't have AutoCAD. :) You could get away with as few as 3 wear rails I'd guess.

We could call it the 'Super Star Bolt'. Kinda cheesy, but... :)

[SIGSays]

would we have to pay for these new bolts?? are they like an upgrade or an improvement??

[krafty]

I'm sure we'll have to pay for them. Who knows, maybe Tom will use them as party favors and give a few away at the anniversary party on the 3rd?

[SHAG]

Hi,

Gunga, your idea is along the lines of my concept. I thought about some form of ribs milled into the bolt. That would make it lighter. Also I was figuring Tom to be using some unusual material like an Al/Mg alloy with some milling. I was not expecting to see a Delin sleeve. The wear on the Sleeve looks bad after about 3 tourneys.

keep at Tom and use the Ao suggestions wisely. My the AO be with you!

Later,
Alan

PS I m not into Star Wars so don t start :)

[Russ]

My guess for the use of a squared coil spring is that the spring must go "solid" (fully compressed) upon each firing cycle. Round stock springs just can't handle that. They will lose their "springiness" and collapse rather quickly.

Perhaps Tom could mold the Delrin (or a more wear resistant carbon-fiber impregnated polymer) to get the cost per part down. I JUST happen to know of this little mold shop...;)

[AGD]

Guys,

All good sugestions but we are way ahead of you. The stuff is the glass filled wear resistant "super delrin" but I forgot what it's called. If you mill wear rails you have no way to hold the delrin in place. You can't do a sandwitch the stainless gets too thin and a would cost a fortune.

We were thinking about trying an aluminum sleeve, most of the weight savings with none of the wear problems. See, you guys need to think more out of the box :)

AGD

[krafty]

Well, what do you expect with a research budget like we've got right now? ;) You've got us all working for pretzels and cheese!

[ProjectMag]

What holds the delrin on the bolt as of now? You could put notches in the wear rails that connects the delrin so it's all one piece still.

[Gunga]

Originally posted by AGD
Guys,

All good sugestions but we are way ahead of you. The stuff is the glass filled wear resistant "super delrin" but I forgot what it's called. If you mill wear rails you have no way to hold the delrin in place. You can't do a sandwitch the stainless gets too thin and a would cost a fortune.

We were thinking about trying an aluminum sleeve, most of the weight savings with none of the wear problems. See, you guys need to think more out of the box :)

AGD

Welp, if you have milled or extruded rails (stainless or aluminum), why bother with having delrin as part of the bolt at all? The rails would be the only things in contact with the spring and thus would take all of the abuse, so what would having delrin inbetween the rails achieve? Besides adding weight, cost, and manufacturing difficulties that is. :)

[Puckz]

Cause it will cause blowback. The bolt needs to seal in the barrel as close as possible to minimize blowback. Having a bolt made of just rails will create a very bad seal.

[Zarak]

I HAVE THE PERFECT IDEA!!!

We should put a couple of those elves in the bolt! Those small guys can do miracles!!! :D

[zads27]

Hey Tom, where the used delrin sleeve has black areas on it, am I correct in assuming that those parts are worn less than the more white parts?
Do you know approx how many shots the bolt actually went through? Or how many shots the bolt goes through before the wear actually begins to cause performance/reliability problems?
By the wear on that bolt, (assuming the white areas are more worn than the black) it seems that two things causing the most wear are when the flat spring is fully compressed, and the part of the bolt that actually goes furthest into the breach.
Perhaps trying to round out the inside of the bolt spring a bit would help with a more even wear pattern, or maybe shortening the delrin sleeve, or giving it a metal rim around the bottom of the bolt to help keep that part from wearing out so much.
As for the top portion, maybe try making a beveled/rounded edge or something?
Small Delrin sleeve on the back "lip" portion of the bolt to reduce weight more, since that is a big chunk of the weight?

Well most of these ideas are probably unpractical or whatnot, but just giving some ideas.

[DarkRipper]

Neener neener! I briefly had one of these before all of you!!

;)
DR

[Gunga]

Originally posted by DarkRipper
Neener neener! I briefly had one of these before all of you!!

;)
DR

Neener neener neener! I got to try one of these out too. :)

[donggie]

it would probably take a lot or retooling but you could probably achieve less weight for the bolt and shorter cycling distance if you shorten the powertube and bolt and extend the portion of the powertube where the bolt hits. Basically changing the stroke or distance it moves before changing directins. Also the shorter bolt would definitely be lighter. Not sure if there would be any problems with regard to wiggling or orientatino of the bolt during the stroke but from the top of my head, and if I had the resources, I'd try it... who says the bolt has to be that long? am I making any sense?

Don

[Webmaster]

Oh Oh - hey hey! I just had a brain storm for this the other night.

is there any way you could THREAD the delrin sleave onto the steel bolt? Just 3-4 threads at the tip or the base should do it. Maybe just a DOT of blue locktite?

Or is there not enough meat to do this?

[Maverick]

Tom,
I know you already stated that you were working on an aluminum sleeve concept. Could you tell me if the inside dimensions of the bolt can change? If it can you could put a bolt together that looks like the design below. The top bolt is the existing automag bolt. The bottom bolt is one made with a stainless back and front but with an aluminum sleeve making up the main section of the bolt (the red area is made of aluminum). As you can see, the inside diameter of the bolt would be larger. This could have the added plus of improved air flow through the bolt. Let me know what you think.

[donggie]

I think it is a good idea but I would think that the stresses at the point of the joint or attachment of the aluminum to the stainless steel portion may become weak. I'm not even considering the difference in materials and any problems that may cause with regard to expansion due to differences in temperature. Guess it may be a more prudent choice to find a stronger way to attach the aluminum portion to the stainless part. Just a thought.

Don

[Maverick]

I had the same thoughts as far as how to attach the aluminum sleeve to the other pieces. First of all the aluminum sleeve would have to be an extruded aluminum tube. It could be dented if the bolt were dropped but under normal use in a mag I can't imagine it wearing out. It would be much less expensive to make (extruded compared to machined aircraft aluminum). It could then be crimped onto the stainless parts (see the new picture attached). Also, for additional weight reduction the nose of the bolt and inner rod could be machined from aircraft grade aluminum (see green area in the picture). Obviously, this would have to be tested for durability but I really think it could work.

[Maverick]

Also, with the nose of the bolt made of machined aluminum, it would be less expensive to machine different air flow holes in the nose of the bolt. So, if there was a compromise made between manufacturing cost and design of the stainless bolt nose, you could now choose the most efficient air flow design without increasing manufacturing costs by much. I also had another idea in terms of air flow through the bolt. If the inner rod of the bolt came to a point or a more aerodynamic shape it would decrease the disruption of air flow that the flat surface that's there now creates (see attached picture). Again, this would make the air flow through the bolt more efficiently. I don't know if this will really make any noticable difference but is could be something to try.

Tom, I hope I'm not driving you too nuts with this, it's just an idea.

[Maverick]

Here's a picture of what I was trying to get across with the air flow improvement through the bolt. I know that this is a greatly simplified representation of the air flow leaving the powertube but I did this to get my point across.

[Muzikman]

That bolt looks VERY dangerous. Think about this. That crimp some how gives away. Now you have the tip of the bolt coming out of the barrel at 300fps:) Can you say OUCH?:)

[Maverick]

I hadn't really thought about that until you brought it to my attention. Honestly though, I believe the existing stainless bolt from AGD is just press fit together (correct me if I'm wrong). I don't beleive they use any welds to hold the nose inside the outer structure of the bolt. Now it is stainless to stainless so there would be much less give in the material, but it still could come apart the same way. In my example, the nose piece would need to have a groove for the aluminum tube to be crimped into. I do believe that this would make a good joint and hold the bolt together. Obviously, only actually building it and thorough testing could really prove any of what I'm saying.

[AGD]

Guys,

I appreciate all the effort but the bolt is a precision piece that must seal air and never fall apart (it would come out the barrel). We oven braze the center piston in the bolt tube to make sure it stays there. We are going into limited production with the replacable delrin sleeve. Look for them first on the SFL Emags and for sale as an acc. part.

AGD

[Chris]

Have you guys tried Titanium for the bolt? I used to have a venom Lightning Bolt, and I do believe it was made of titanum with a composite face. It did weigh considerably less than the stock bolt I used it to replace.

-Chris

[DiRTyBuNNy]

i think they should put the super bolt for sale to AO members first..we're the ones who've been driving Tom to the edge of insanity since this thing was whispered about...

[Trent-MaximuS]

Titanium is a great metal but it is not stainless steel. Titanium is strong but soft at the same time. The titanium that venom uses is not NASA grade. So over time it will chip and flake. Also with titanium it will cost a hole lot more to re-tool the shop to start turning out titanium products. Now with the composite rod, well you need to make sure that thing won't come free and fly out (that's around 200 mph)

[LeadBasedPaint]

You could teflon coat them. Less friction means less wear. Or would that be too expensive?

[MAGgot Man]

If the object is to lighten the bolt but maintain a good wear factor....why not just flute the existing stainless bolt? Like they do to rifle barrels in order to lighten them up while maintaining the general barrel characteristics. I realize we are talking about the Bolt of the Mag....but the concept is the same. It would lighten the bolt somewhat but since its stainless it would maintain a good wear factor.

[Restola]

my step dad has a couple titanium screws from several years ago when he worked for delta. they are less than an inch long and cost over $600 a piece. and thats a simple screw, not some whacko shape like a bolt

[Gunga]

Originally posted by Restola
my step dad has a couple titanium screws from several years ago when he worked for delta. they are less than an inch long and cost over $600 a piece. and thats a simple screw, not some whacko shape like a bolt

A lot of the cost for that screw (or any other part for an aircraft) is to pay for insurance. Take that screw for example...or a simple rivet. They may be the very same thing you can pick up at the hardware/auto parts store for a few cents - same manufacturer, same factory. But...and that's a big BUT...parts that are certified airworthy are horrendously expensive, due to the massive insurance that the manufacturers carry.

Back in my college days, I was taking flight & aircraft mechanic's courses. Civil aviation aircraft (Cessnas, Beechcraft, Piper, etc.) are ancient in terms of the technology used. Most of the engines still use carburetors rather than fuel injection. A simple caruburetor that you would pay maybe $20 for at the auto parts store would cost you from a few to several hundred dollars. Same exact part, just certified for aircraft use.

Whenever a plane crashes, anyone that can be hit with a lawsuit will most likely be sued. The lawyers aren't gonna go after the pilot...they'll go after whomever has the deep pockets, in this case, manufacturers of the various aircraft components, as well as the aircraft manufacturer.

[KamikazePenguin]

the inside rod of the bolt that seals with the powertube, have you guys at AGD toyed with the idea of making this rod delrin, or putting a delrin sleeve on it? you could then make the the powertube on the valve itself smooth SS and eliminate the need for power tube spacers/power tube o-rings, it wouldn't be necessary as the delrin would always seal with the powertube. The only problem i can think of is you wouldn't be able to oil the gun through the ASA because the oil would get on the delrin in the bolt and cause it to swell, making the bolt get stuck....that same thing could happen with the delrin sleeve so you've probably already found a way around it.

[Dubstar112]

also the derlin would wear out and eventually cause a bad seal.

[RiceRocket]

I hate to bring this thread back to the top, but I just wanted to throw out a couple more ideas:

What about making the main bolt spring lock into the body somehow, disallowing it from minimally floating and sitting at different angels after each trigger pull. This would keep it at a fixed position and, hopefully, not letting it rub on the delrin sleeve as much.

Or, can the main spring be coated with something, still keeping it's strength, but a smoother contact with the delrin?

[thei3ug]

i know, i know, but i just wanted to throw one more idea into the pot for the sake of argument.

what would be wrong with a bolt such as this, maintaining a one-piece stainless body, with a consistant OD, with long machined holes drilled as such down the length:

[FDB1]

Originally posted by Zarak
I HAVE THE PERFECT IDEA!!!

We should put a couple of those elves in the bolt! Those small guys can do miracles!!! :D

he probly would, but it would cost us more, and im sure those elves are almost extinct, and hard to find, now that so many people are buying autocockers:rolleyes:

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Well..World Cup coming next week and the Super bolt officially making it's appearance on the SFL eMags...when does the general public get a shot to buy one of these bolts...i'm gonna be upgrading my mag to an eMag and i want to know how i can get one...i wanna be a guinea pig...

[AGD]

Subsequent testing is showing that most of the wear happens when you dry fire the gun without a barrel. The bolts that are only shot with barrels are showing much less wear.

Manny your black SFL is going together monday with the new bolt in it and I am bringing one down for your regular gun on monday.

AGD

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Hey Tom...get some sleep man...i'm on the west coast and i'm tired..well..looks like the Super Bolt is improving everyday..and on a side note..can someone out at World Cup get some pics of Manny in action with his AGD Special SFL...i've got his warpig.com pic as my screensaver..

[DiRTyBuNNy]

don't want to be a pain..but i wanted to throw this back up to see if anything new has happened in the 2 weeks since i last threw this up....

[AGD]

look for a batch to go on sale here this coming week.

AGD

[donggie]

Nice! I am definitely purchasing one. I've been waiting for these tings to go on sale. I was hoping on buying two. Would there be any limit to how many one can buy?

Don

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

I know this is old considering the thing is comming out but what about magnesseum? thats saposed to be really light. not sure if it is strong but whats wrong with it?

[donggie]

I just got off the phone with Joanne to register my new Micro eMag and took the liberty of trying to purchase a superbolt. Looks like they aren't quite ready yet and that AO'ers will get first crack at it. I'm hoping to purchase two of these and was wondering if it would be part of this thread or another. Just kinda worried I might be late in purchasing them since they will probably be a limited run this first batch. If anyone reads this, I would appreciate if someone could give me a heads up so that I won't be left behind. Just a favor of sorts.

Thanks,

Don

[dawump]

This is a huge thread - so I can't read it all - but what is the expected cost of the new bolt?

[DiRTyBuNNy]

You know what..no one has ever answered that before..how strange..oh well..i'm just holding off...can't decide..

[FDB1]

after i get a superbolt and intelliframe my mag will be complete!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

[donggie]

ARE THEY FOR SALE YET!!!


Don

[AGD]

Here are the details, we are having an internet store setup as we speak. I expected that it would be done today but it seems they lost the email with the pictures and descriptions of the products. It will have to wait until monday to get straightened out. There will only be a few things for sale at first but one will be the Superbolt. The guys here this weekend will get a chance to buy them too so if you know anyone coming have them get one for you.

AGD

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Cool..i'm going to be in Vegas to catch the last day of Comdex so i'll be able to order mine on monday...YYeeeeeaaahhhh....i can stop bugging you now, Tom (at least about the superbolts...i can't promise i'll stop bugging you about the flatlines though..sorry...)..oh..and any chance there will ever be a Tech Class in California..us Westerners are really feeling left out as of late...

[Minimag4me]

yeah finally a chance to buy one soon, any details on price? im with bunny us west coasters are feeling left out

edit:tom, rumor(edit # 2 "i cant spell") has it they will only be foamie, can u use the superbolt without a foamie?