Carbon Fiber

[kauai_paintball]

Well, ive been looing at all this ULE stuff, and its all made out of aluminum. so, alot of people want maximum lightweight equipment. just use carbon fiber! the stiffi barrel is the lightest barrel on the market ,, and is made from carbon fiber. they use carbon fiber in cars, as axles, and even they use it as valves, it can take explosions! someone should make a carbonfiber mainbody and rail, etc. although carbon fiber is expensive, its well worth it. if you made valves and tanks out of it, because of its tendency not to gain or lose temerature, it would make the mostefficient, consistant accurate marker EVER!!! aluminum is second rate in durability, and weight to carbon fiber. carbon fiber also, if machined right can flex, allowing for flexible bodys, and if your orings failed, it wouldnt screw your gun. i think somebody should start making a completely carbon fiber x mag. all te parts, except for the screws would be carbon fiber. could imagine a 95/4500 ci tank with a X mag, full with paint, and hopper, and air, only weighing 2 pouds? alltogether, the gun alone would be about 5 grams.
Its something for people to think about. (Hint, Hint, TOM!)

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Are you willing to spend 300+ on a body that cannt be annoed? It isnt worth it. Aluminum is light enough. If thats too heavy go lift some weights.

[kauai_paintball]

you dont need to anno carbon fiber, whats cool about it, is that its a weave of fibers, coated in a carbon resin, if you wan it anno'd, you still probably could, buy why do that when you can weave different colors of fiber together, nd make seamless, 3-d looking guns.

[tyrion2323]

Well, it couldn't be anodized, no matter how much you wanted it... Only aluminum can be anodized.

Also, why would we want a 3-d looking marker? The gun is already 3-d.

[kauai_paintball]

also, if you want your gun to stick out, every 3 fibers, someody could include a glowing fiber or two, your gun would literally glow!it could be made so well, that it could become transparent! try to imagine all the glowing threads intertwining like the insides of a terminator!

[Timmee]

I'd be happy with a 2 finger 45 frame in carbon fiber. Not because the intelliframe is heavy, but because it'd be neat.

[SeeK]

Originally posted by WenULiVeUdiE
Are you willing to spend 300+ on a body that cannt be annoed? It isnt worth it. Aluminum is light enough. If thats too heavy go lift some weights.

It's funny that I recall people saying this about the RT with all it's SS. Now everybody wants light.

[kauai_paintball]

youre right, the dimensions are 3d, but have you ever seen aluminum glow? you can coat carbon fiber with differnt resins, and it will look exactly like anodizing, if you use a metallic resin. carbon fiber is also better for sponsored teams, and pro teams, who want a gun that is reliable, dfast, light, and cool looking.

[mcveighr]

Its not cool looking, its ugly and expensive.

I don't know if they can get the right tolerences either.


They make car axles out of CF?

[Pacifist_Farmer]

I'm pretty sure youll find that due to things like wear and cost of machining, carbon fiber is "right out"

While it's great in some applications the multidirectional loads and stresses that would be applied would be extremely diffucult to compensate for

Also if I'm not mistaken, carbon fiber's color can be changed through dyes in the resin

[kauai_paintball]

if you dont like how it looks, then just request a dye in the resin mix.
And think about this, the stiffi barrel is the most beautiful barrel ive ever seen. period. could you imagine having all the black parts on your gun carbon fiber, and then saving weight at the same time. also, carbon isnt that expensive, if you made the outer case of the x valve out of it, and the bolt, then it would cost about 50$ more, and be more reliable, consistant, and lightweight.

[mcveighr]

Do it then.

There's still the tolerence issues.

[GT]

big problem:
there are not enough mag users in the world to compensate for the cost of the molds? I wonder how many bodies Nicad has sold. It would be a good comparison since a CF body wouldnt be cheap.

[Altimas]

If Carbon Fiber is so Strong then why do you have to put covers on Carbon Fiber tanks?

[WenULiVeUdiE]

HPA tanks are maybe half an inch thick. That is that is sperating you from 4500 psi of air. A flying hpa tank will be worse than a co2 tank. A tank cover isnt that much. And if you didnt have one who knows what would be of you tank right now.

Here are the problems:
Tolerance issues
Expenses
Colors
How many would be bought.

Carbon fibre just isnt cheap. It starts out as a fabric and is put into a pressurized oven until it becomes hard. If you think this is great idea, go for it. But dont expect to see a profit within the first year.

[StickFigurSicide]

if you made valves and tanks out of it...it would make the mostefficient, consistant accurate marker EVER!!! ...... carbon fiber also, if machined right can flex

ok, first off I want to see how you would make a valve out of carbon fiber that can withstand 850psi directly (all carbonfiber HPA tanks have an aluminum lining, so dont use that as an explanation). And you cannot machine carbon fiber like you can aluminum.

Also, id like to see how you'd get it to hold threads :rolleyes:

-edit- spelling

[kauai_paintball]

Ok, you dont HAVE to have a cover on a carbon tank. carbon gass tanks are exposed to all kinds of heat in excess of 100 degrees, and also icy weather. they dont need covers. and, what tolerance issues. your not supposed to use co2 in automags anyways. HPA is consistant, and will not expose it to any extreme temperature changes. also, inside the fibers, if you want it stonger, you could weave it out of extremely thin steel threads, or, spiderwebs, beause they are more resistant than steel. althought they use synthetic spider webs in carbon fiber anyways. im not sure about the temperatures associated with nitro though. if its liquid nitrogen, then i still dont think there will be a problem. its not like bodyparts are meant to be bent anyways, all it could do is make it temporarily more rigid. althugh gastanks arent meant to be under pressure, they make they make high pressure NOS tanks out of CF.(and to all you people, NOS ISNT FLAMMABLE) and the valve dosent have to be CF, it can be aluminum.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

How are you going to get the aluminum lining in the carbon fibre? Your not. You would have to have two halves put together. And there is no good realiable long lasting way to do this. All I can htink if is aluminum lining, carbon fibre layer, an outer casing. But with that outer casing you just lost all the light weightness of the tank. It just wont happen with carbon fibre any time soon. Unless AGD comes up with something?

[AkumA]

http://thecog.bizland.com/custom/g10_cocker.htm

carbon fiber G10 Cocker by K&P customs.

it can be done, just need someone with the dough.

[kauai_paintball]

Unless AGD comes up with something?

EXACTLY , i dont have the brains or resourses to make carbon fibre stufff, but i Do have the brains to tell someone who dose about it. also, carbon fibre is like baked carbon fibers coated with resin, you can make a thin lining out of aluminum, and then wrap it with damp carbon fibre and bake it. it isnt baked hot enough to effect the aluminum, but it cures the fibre. just repeat this like 10 time, so you have 10 layers of carbon fibre, and one layer of aluminum, with small layers of resin in between. then just add a aluminum valve and adapter. simplistic. carbon is "machined right" by bakeing long enough, and then reshaping, bake, reshape, bake shap, etc, like a blacksmith shop. ive seen aluminum barrels heavier, and longer, and more expensive then the stiffi barre,(like, the freak barrel, or whatever) and the stiffi is lighter, quieter, and more accurate. so carbon might just be less expensive. more man hours, but you dont need to buy any expensive molds, unless, like the barrel, it has to be super straight. the ovens are kinda pricey, but once you have one, no more cost exept fo the electricity. relatively inexpensive to make too.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

That us true. But the St!iffe is about 130 for a single barrel. You could get a small kit for less. The freak is a kit and that makes sense. But we will just have to see.

[Morally0Confused]

i had carbonfiber barrel on my tippmann
it snapped :(

[~WarpedRT#2~]

Actually, carbon fiber tanks are incased in glass, hence the need to cover it. duh.

CF is most certainly the best material to make a barrel with. It is so light, you really cant feel it in your hand, and they shoot amazingly well. I just shot my Stiffi today, and its accuracy was unbelievable.

[mcveighr]

TOLERENCES

Nobody has said anything about this.

[afrankart]

I don't think you could find someone to make you a carbon fiber ULE body for less than $500. It is horrendous to machine, all threaded areas would have to be sleeved with aluminum, and any area of it that has been machined would have to be re-coated to give it that glossy look, throwing off all of the tolerances. Although it is so much "stronger" and lighter than aluminum and steel, it is also more brittle, and scratches easier (than steel anyways). That is just the body. I can't even imagine how much a whole marker would cost (assuming someone could do it), letalone one that has "glow in the dark" threads.

I would love to feel how much kick any marker has when the whole setup weighs only 2 lbs including paint and air. That would be horrible.

The verdict: A nearly unobtainable goal that is poorly thought out.

[GoatBoy]

I think it's not practical for the main body. The mag's main body is already very small. If the body were larger, like, say, for that cocker, or any other doublestack with an annoyingly large mainbody (which I guess applies to all doublestacks in my book), it might have something to it.


I will have to say that I would second the notion for a CF intelliframe. I'll be the one to say it; I think the intelliframe is comparatively heavy. Just make it out of the same stuff as the original gripframe. That'd be great.

[kauai_paintball]

you see, the entirely CF gun was just an idea, but not practical. what i was meaning, was that you could make small things out of it, example, a 68 classic with a dye 14 inch barrel, intelliframe and x valve would be close to(approx, weighing my friends) 5-7 punds. if you swap the intelliframe matrials fr CF, thers probably a pund of weight savings, than the valve would be maybe a few ounces, and the barrel at least a poun. there, about (approx) 100$, and youve turned a 5-7 pound marker into a 2-4 pound marker. just small accesorys, like the sight rail too, and the feed tube and MAYBE a carbon core delrin bolt. if accessorys had a CF option, then people who focused on weight could pay there extra 20-50$ and get something remarkably lighter. a blue shift knob in a car mag, is about 30$, while a real carbon fibre one of the same model would be 40$

[GoatBoy]

Originally posted by kauai_paintball
you see, the entirely CF gun was just an idea, but not practical. what i was meaning, was that you could make small things out of it, example, a 68 classic with a dye 14 inch barrel, intelliframe and x valve would be close to(approx, weighing my friends) 5-7 punds. if you swap the intelliframe matrials fr CF, thers probably a pund of weight savings, than the valve would be maybe a few ounces, and the barrel at least a poun. there, about (approx) 100$, and youve turned a 5-7 pound marker into a 2-4 pound marker. just small accesorys, like the sight rail too, and the feed tube and MAYBE a carbon core delrin bolt. if accessorys had a CF option, then people who focused on weight could pay there extra 20-50$ and get something remarkably lighter. a blue shift knob in a car mag, is about 30$, while a real carbon fibre one of the same model would be 40$

I dunno. It doesn't sound quite as simple as a shifter knob. It's NOT going to be cheap for what you get (time is money, you know). You know, moving parts, metal inserts... And what do you get? Let's see...

When you say 5-7 pounds, what are you including in that 5-7 pounds? Hopper? Nitro tank?



http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=123337&highlight=weight

ULE automag is roughly 2.5 pounds in that configuration. That's including unimount, vertical adapter, foregrip, hose/fittings, and all the metal screws.



If you're talking about 2-4 pounds for the gun alone, like in this picture, then this exercise is already over...

[nerobro]

That cocker body isn't carbon fiber. But tha'ts something that has been covered many times.

Building a carbon fiber mag body would be dead simple. And even relitively cheap. when I do finally get a lathe, I'll be happy to make carbon fiber bodies.

Making carbon fiber frames... is another story entirely. that would require several hours of labor PER FRAME. we're talking mid 3 digits per frame. but they could be made disgustingly light.

[GT]

comment on weight....

2 things to consider
1. weight of setup
2. weight location

rememeber mags, typically, are alittle back heavy. So give that you make the gun just alitle lighter its going to tip back.



Tuna is currnetly building an RTP custom for me. Once I get it I will installed a milled ULE am/mm rail and have the intelli grap removed from the Y. I can easly see a sub 2lbs gun with the stiff barrel I just ordered. my last am was right at 2lbs w/o a ule rail and barrel.

So it begs to be asked how light do you honestly think we can get a mag using CF? I think there are only 2 places we can stand to lose somemore weight the valve and trigger frame. The valve, out of Ti, aint gonna happen maybe the trigger frame but who knows...

[nerobro]

Gtr, titanium is 2/3 the density of SS. Aluminum is 1/2 the density. IIRC.

A Titanium valve would be HEAVIER than the X-valve.

However, there is still a lot of material that could be removed from the AIR valve that would save and ounce or two.

And the inteliframe isn't light...

[GT]

Originally posted by nerobro
Gtr, titanium is 2/3 the density of SS. Aluminum is 1/2 the density. IIRC.

Correct,
I was under the impression you could use less material with Ti, in essance it would have the same strength as the AL valve but weigh less because less material was used in its construction...


And the inteliframe isn't light

I know.... I have a whole chart of weights at the house. What about a Thermoplastic 2x frame instead of CF. I was under the impression that is what the stock AGD trigger was and not CF.

[nerobro]

You can, but there's a lot of material on the AIR you really can't remove without having to make the body custom, or shims to hold up what's there. And I think AL is better for pressure vessels... ti's failure mode is shrapnel free.

The stock mag frame is injection molded carbon fiber. That's why it's so strong.

Compare that to the thermoplastic WGP frames that like to break ;-)

I would like a carbon fiber mag .45 frame...

Something else to considder. Thereis such thing as "too light"

[LeatherPants]

Remember what we consider CF. Is just carbon weave and resin. There are tons of variations of this. CF hoods and such found on a typical Ricer Civic are the lowest forms. You ever notice all the small bubbles in the resin on these hoods? It's the same for the spoilers, shift knobs, wraps, dash kits etc.

Think of how these bubbles will effect your marker. Imagine trying to hone it and hitting one of these bubbles.

Dry carbon that you seen in F1 cars is a whole different ballgame as far as tolerences/strength/weight/PRICE.

[GT]

Originally posted by nerobro
Something else to considder. Thereis such thing as "too light"

that is kinda the point I am making. Dont tell anyone but I think the magic number is 2.5 lbs for an electro and alittle less than 2lbs for a mech, given the tank, hopper, and recpriocating mass...

[GT]

Originally posted by LeatherPants
CF hoods and such found on a typical Ricer Civic are the lowest forms.

depends on where you buy it from. Go to Fiber images website and view the vids. Those arnt cheap!

[LeatherPants]

Originally posted by gtrsi


depends on where you buy it from. Go to Fiber images website and view the vids. Those arnt cheap!

Yes I know Fiber Images work and still you have bubbles. Small but they are there. Not saying the hoods suck but just using the bubbles and an example for this topic.

[GT]

is that the difference bewteen regular ol CF and the vacum bagged?

[Chris42050]

Originally posted by gtrsi


that is kinda the point I am making. Dont tell anyone but I think the magic number is 2.5 lbs for an electro and alittle less than 2lbs for a mech, given the tank, hopper, and recpriocating mass...

A little birdy told me this. Interesting. Why do you think that a mech should be lighter than an E.

[nerobro]

Originally posted by LeatherPants
Remember what we consider CF. Is just carbon weave and resin. There are tons of variations of this. CF hoods and such found on a typical Ricer Civic are the lowest forms. You ever notice all the small bubbles in the resin on these hoods? It's the same for the spoilers, shift knobs, wraps, dash kits etc.

Think of how these bubbles will effect your marker. Imagine trying to hone it and hitting one of these bubbles.

Dry carbon that you seen in F1 cars is a whole different ballgame as far as tolerences/strength/weight/PRICE.

Well... not what "I" considder CF. Weave is the weakest form of layup for carbon fiber. unidirectional mat is what's usually used. But in the case of a mag body, weave would be best, because you don't need a high cloth to resin ratio, and actually more resin will make it look prettier!

As for bubbles, that's what proper layup is for. There is no honing needed becasue the body would be done on a mandrel, and the inside of the body would match the form of the mandrel. That's how the stiffi barrels are made. They do grind the outsides of the barrels though.

The layup used in F1 isn't "dry." What they ususally use is something called "prepreg" which is the cloth but it's already impregnated with the heat activating resin. We don't have the luxury of an autoclave, but we can come pretty darned close with an oven, a vaccum bag rig, and 2hr epoxy.

[GT]

Originally posted by Chris42050


A little birdy told me this. Interesting. Why do you think that a mech should be lighter than an E.

these were numbers that I feel confortable with. Very qualatitive data, maybe even at the nomonial level.

In anycase I find that some guns under the 2.5lbs can cause an off axis inbalance. If you view a gun at perfect rest, for me, I want the center of gravity at the trigger frame. There are number of reasons this is a good spot, and some that are not. typically when you are playing through out the day your weight changes, loss of AIR and loss of paint from the hopper. Problem is, lets say you have a gun with a signfgant amount of recoil, how signfgant I am unsure since I do not have a way to measure recoil, the weight of the entire rig is spread out on the ends of the axis, i.e. barrel hopper and tank. when full these are less effected by recoil, when empty, depending on what I call the "core" weight, this can change drastically.

Qualtitavly: you can equate timmies with "that cheap feeling" because they are just so light.

Also consider while snap shooting.... A rig with a higher "Core" value will come to rest much quicker, however, the engery used to place it into the approriate position is increased.

Lastly, I believe mech guns can run alittle lighter given that most mechs are held differently at the gripframe. also the trigger/player ergonomics are abit different and the forces that the player gives to the marker are higher given the trigger pull, on mechs, is heavier.


Finally 99.9% of players never analyze to this level, so for the most part it probally doesnt matter ;)

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

Why a mag body out of CF? No offense or anything, but I doubt anyone would get much buisness from a mag. Now, a Matrix (note that no one has a completely unique body for the trix except for dye, but that is not really even a matrix since the bolt is different), an intimidator (already too light, but people will buy), or an angel, someone would buy a body. I know that if someone made a CF body for the matrix, I'd be first in line to buy one.

And for whoever said you can't color CF, look at the Ferrari F50 and the Enzo, both have bodies made from entirely carbon fiber, and you can get them in all colors, same with F1 cars.

[kauai_paintball]

About the kick that would happen from "too light", you could just make a delrin bolt with a carbon core. it would have EXTREMELY little kick and would be near frictionless if you oiled it. kick "problem" solved. a grip frame, a valve casing, and a delrinlv 10 bolt with a cf insidfe would cost MAYBE a hundred more, and then eliminate kick and also, because your using less hand muscle to hold the gun upright form the trigger frame, you also would allow for more focus of the trigger muscles, making trigger pull lighter. i read a pbreview of a cf timmy trigger, and all 10 out of 10. the bolt casing of cf would also reduce the back heavyness. so, youd have a gun with a really fast trigger pull, no kick, and no back heaviness.

[kauai_paintball]

Originally posted by RT pRo AuToMaG
Why a mag body out of CF? No offense or anything, but I doubt anyone would get much buisness from a mag. Now, a Matrix (note that no one has a completely unique body for the trix except for dye, but that is not really even a matrix since the bolt is different), an intimidator (already too light, but people will buy), or an angel, someone would buy a body. I know that if someone made a CF body for the matrix, I'd be first in line to buy one.

And for whoever said you can't color CF, look at the Ferrari F50 and the Enzo, both have bodies made from entirely carbon fiber, and you can get them in all colors, same with F1 cars. well, because the mag bodies are relativly simple, mags would be great testers for the material. and then moving on to more complex applications.

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

True about how mag bodies are simple. If this gets done, I think it will be pretty amazing. Now, who is going to do this project? And how much?

[kauai_paintball]

well, there are places that do custom carbon fibre fabrication. we could order a prototype, and then if it works good, we could send it to a dealer to elaborate upon. it would cost about 200$ for a mainbody (possibly, probably less) and then for a grip frame im not sure, when i order my new ULE RTcustom then ill order it. i think ill start out with a y grip, or intelliframe. if aybody has the plans for an intelligrip, send them to me(email is Kauai_paintball@hotmail.com
who knows, cf may end up costing less .

[mcveighr]

you could just make a delrin bolt with a carbon core.

Nope.

[kauai_paintball]

Originally posted by mcveighr


Nope.
Elaborate

[kauai_paintball]

i emailed a cf fabrication company, and i asked them some questions, and i asked how much (roughtly, i sent them a pickture) a cf intelliframe would cost. will pst email when i recieve it.

[Yamz]

Tom already did the delrin bolt with a metal core (im sure the core would not make much diffrence in this case)... it failed due to too much wear on the delrin http://www.automags.org/resource/tech/prototype/superbolt_1.shtml

[mcveighr]

Yamz elaborated for me.

[afrankart]

Originally posted by gtrsi

Lastly, I believe mech guns can run alittle lighter given that most mechs are held differently at the gripframe. also the trigger/player ergonomics are abit different and the forces that the player gives to the marker are higher given the trigger pull, on mechs, is heavier.


Finally 99.9% of players never analyze to this level, so for the most part it probally doesnt matter ;)

Might I add that most electros can easily surpass most mechs in rate of fire, and with a faster rate of fire, you would want a steadier platform.

I agree with the second comment as well.

[nerobro]

A carbon fiber mag body woudl be extremely cheap. Honestly, to do it "right" i'd do most of the layup using fiberglass, and then a pretty layer on the outside with carbon. it would be quite light.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Originally posted by RT pRo AuToMaG
[B And for whoever said you can't color CF, look at the Ferrari F50 and the Enzo, both have bodies made from entirely carbon fiber, and you can get them in all colors, same with F1 cars. [/B]

I am not sure if someone said you cant get them colored, but I do know someone said no anno. The F1 cars are painted. Not annoed or anything, just paint. Now having a painted gun isnt a good thing. It may look awesome, but as soon as you chip it, the value goes down and so does the looks.

[Dryden]

Originally posted by WenULiVeUdiE
The F1 cars are painted. Not annoed or anything, just paint.The major headache with this is the thickness of the paint, and therefore back to that magic word, "tolerences."

If you wanted a high gloss finish that was at least marginally chip/scratch/scuff resistant under normal wear, a la an auto body, you're adding about 7 coats of paints and two layers of finish. The paint and finish would either have to be machine regulated to perfection, or every marker assembled would have to be hand tuned for the rail, bolt, valve, and sear to operate (presuming a traditional Mag assembly).

I, for one, prefer a heavier setup. I want something that feels substantial, that feels like it's made to be used over and over again for years. If I wanted a light, new toy, I'd buy an airsoft rifle or cap gun.

For the first two years I owned my MiniMag - after having a PMI-3/VM-68 for about five years - I had the same feeling Will Smith had in MIB holding the Noisy Cricket. I thought I was going to break the darn thing.

[swanster]

if they are made i will have 2 center feed ones for my x-mags

btw. if going to the bother of making a rail why not try to make the entire gun out of CF

[GT]

Originally posted by swanster
if going to the bother of making a rail why not try to make the entire gun out of CF

I dont understand the rail concept. Just make a new unibody like the X.

[nicad]

near the end of last year Deadlywind was considering making bodies with a CF layer as the finish. would still be based on a Slug underneath.
We currently have all of the equipment to do it already..
Its still being considered, but nothing has been made yet.

..except some renderings! :) whatchall think?
http://www.deadlywind.com/cf-projects/karta-CF-render-small.jpg

out!

[Dryden]

I dunno about carbon fiber, but I'll definately take one of those snakeskin sleeves! :P

[kauai_paintball]

Sexy! who says carbon fiber is ugly?!?

[GT]

Colin,

spare me and put in on a real body, CHORD OWNS ALLL!

[kauai_paintball]

Sweet! nicad, put me down for a carbon fiber karta body for my upcoming ule rt custom mag project, and ill se on the carbon fiber grip frames. ill open anouther thread, with a poll. I need to see alot of want for carbon fiber grip frames if im going to sell them.