WAY AROUND THE SP PROB...of course

[dwab3000]

Look i know sp is going to kill all electros soon...and only have their own... now this is a way around all sp problems...ok for the x-mag / e-mag we give them away...but we give them away after someone has donated the recommended price...Copyright laws only gets you if you sell their design...it makes complete sense...that person can pay time by time until he/she has enough to totally pay for it...then its in the amil....it is the perfect way around...ive been looking over patent laws and such to figure this out...Smart parts has %#^*@$ up paintball, They just want money..they get that money from being bullies...i believe its time to screw em over....yes i have a freak it was though purchesed used...i used to have an impy...i like how the shocker looks and feels but what smart parts are doing is wrong...and if you cant figure out what they are doing exactly with this patent....they are going to be able to kill off the other companies making electros...after they are the only electro *if there are any others they paid alottt of money which will raise their prices* now the others are pretty much gone so the impy and shockers come down in prices so its become affordable to all...so yeah this company needs to be stood up to by someone...if tom kaye wants help i will go to court with him show evidence articles and such...we need to show the bully known as smart parts that they are not smart enough to not mess with the power of me caffine and my insomnia....after 4 gruling weeks of research smart parts is literally going to be shown whose boss and they will actually loose money...other companies will do the same such as spyder and piranha and other large mainly electro companies....so i know it may sound strange but think about...this will cause smart parts patents to be re-edited while they are editing we have a patent ready so while theirs is on the disabled list we patent it and let companies use it for free...smart parts is just holding back the evelution of paintball and proving themselves to be power hungry pigs...i also think smart parts has inside corruption problems...some one should be hired to snoop around...ill get off my soap box and stop preaching...post your opinions here...you also must notice that im not saying smart parts products are bad..to me they seem middle of the line...its just so wrong that smart parts did this...now post away i will try to checkup twice daily and respond....now if you disagree with me dont start bashing me...its only a suggestion and may be a way around a suit

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Chris42050]

Originally posted by MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Ditto

[dwab3000]

hey i did my research...this will fix our problems and keep old man kaye on the chart...i thought i looked..ifound i posted...theres nuthing wrong iwth it....its perfectly legal

[la690]

the "donation" tactic does work. whether or not it would work in a paintball context.. idk.
lol. just....take a breath.:p

[yeahthatsme]

SP isnt going to stop production on any gun, it wouldnt be cost effect for them, your obviously not educated on the subject, they will simply force companies into signing an agreement with them, and make some more money, so theres no need for these schemes.

[personman]

That hurt to read.
Add a bit more capitialization, correct grammer and sentence structure, punctuation, and putting it in paragraph form wouldn't hurt either.

[yeahthatsme]

lol, true that. i find that when people do that highlighting it all makes it a ton easier to read.

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[zacbot]

i dont understand why you guys have to bash every thing somebody does..shesh

[Meph]

Welcome to the land of immaturity zac.



Well for the SP debate. I think the industry as a whole currently has a larger problem. Such as safety and education. Seems like the media doesn't like us too much.

[kauai_paintball]

what did smartparts doand why is agd in a lawsuit?

[zacbot]

i mean the guys got an idea to keep those sp bastards from screwing so many people, and all these guys can say is that it was hard to read because he was using internet jargon

[personman]

Originally posted by zacbot
i mean the guys got an idea to keep those sp bastards from screwing so many people, and all these guys can say is that it was hard to read because he was using internet jargon
I wasn't bashing him, I was making a suggestion. If he wants people to read it, it might be logical to make it readable.

[nt2004]

wow how many new members are going to post these threads??? Stop trying, you arent going to save the painball community from big bad SP and be a hero so just stop wasting your time with these idea threads

[dwab3000]

hey i am at least trying here nt2004...if sp gets their way they will be the only company....
btw i am not trying to save em myself.first of all thats not a good idea and it was to show tom kaye an idea how he could keep up on the production of x/e mags instead of canceling em..
if tom kaye can go through this way then it will help other companies save themselves...ok
and i will edit this saturday...im truly posting between classes...not enught true time

[Mag Master 04]

hey dude, i like the fact that you are serious about this subject. there are a billion threads about this but im not seeing much action. a whole lot of talk but no action, im sure there are things stopping that action the I as well as everyone else is looking for. i believe that SP can be stopped and its just as simple as the paintball world coming together and saying no to SP products. let them do there worst. we have to stand tall and refuse to buy there things, they are not immortal, but they will do there worst. we just have to weather the storm and stand up for the soon to be dying paintball advancement. i know that the majority of you say no to SP products but majority is not enough. if we want SP to stop then we need to unite and thats the bottom line. im sure its been said before but its the truth, if my post sounds gay dont read it

[Head knight of Ni]

People, people, people I believe the best way to fight smart parts is to let human nature take its course. with this whole patent incedent the only thing smart parts is doing is giving itself a black eye in the mind of the intelligent consumer.

Of course we're upset because we think that we should blame SP for the death of the X-Mag. One of the over looked aspects of this whole issue is how enforcing the patent is an underhanded tactic and the only reason that I pesonally dislike SP for it is they Patented it but they waited until the market for electronic markers was booming.

I also find it odd that this issue came about at or around the same time that a company *cough AGhh uh D *cough creates a part that can give consumers a trigger pull equivalent to most electronic guns but keep it a pure mech' gun. As well as the fact that this company was supposedly approached and folded thier fairly popular electronic line of markers.

My thoughts and I hope you liked my insight and reply to it.

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

Originally posted by dwab3000
...if sp gets their way they will be the only company....


First of all, NPS, Dye and ICD have alrady signed agreements with SP, so we will defiantly have matrices, bushmasters, and intimidators as well as impulses and shockers.

The reason Tom stopped production of the Emag has nothing to do with SP. He felt that the technology was dated and it was time for a change. The reason for them stopping production of the xmag has something to do with AGDE.

As far as SP suing all the companies, welcome to the buisness world! It doesn't matter what YOU think is right, or what really is right, it all boils down to, SP owns the patent and they are enforcing it. Appearently, if large companies like NPS and Dye signed agreements with them, they have some solid grounds for their patent.

[Dryden]

The previous two posts (by Head knight of Ni and RT pRo AuToMaG) are two of the more reasoned ones I've read recently.

Unless you've got money and lawyers (which are mutually exclusive) you're really out of luck. You can either go to court to have the patent invalidated, or you can go to the US Patent and Trademark Office and request a review, and pray to God SP doesn't hit you with a suit before you're out the door.

The other option, a grassroots boycott, isn't going to work either, unless everyone gives up their shiney electros and Freak barrels altogether. Since SP will license electros, they're getting a cut whether you buy it from Dye, ICD, or whoever.

Viva la ULT! Viva la Level 10! *chuff chuff*

[PaintballSmurf13]

:rolleyes: @ the whole thing ...i mean..you can't beat the system...it's ALL money..money makes the world go round..money wins...nothin else..so your out of luck. Just look at Dye, they bought the Matrix and you can't even upgrade it without totally voiding the warranty and such, except for the Smokin mod. There will always be bullies in the industry, in every industry.
-Ryan F.

and on the bright side...if electros die out because of the whole thing..we all know where to get the fastest mech guns around;)

[MidnightRider]

Originally posted by PaintballSmurf13


and on the bright side...if electros die out because of the whole thing..we all know where to get the fastest mech guns around;)

If all the electros are pushed out of the market 'cept SP's... the tournaments just go all mech and SP's products are tough-out-of-luck.

Now if only the promoters and such get on this bandwagon.:D

Peace

MR :cool:

[DeeEight]

Originally posted by RT pRo AuToMaG

As far as SP suing all the companies, welcome to the buisness world! It doesn't matter what YOU think is right, or what really is right, it all boils down to, SP owns the patent and they are enforcing it. Appearently, if large companies like NPS and Dye signed agreements with them, they have some solid grounds for their patent.

And if they fail to sue tippmann, BE, Kingman, WDP, WGP, PMI and other companies with E-guns and MORE MONEY THAN SP does for lawyers in a TIMELY manner, then the patent is unenforced and thus void.

They've yet to win in court, they have no precedant to force those rich companies to sign a license agreement, and they're running out of small companies to go after.

Once the patent is unenforced and voided, AKA, AGD and everybody else who took the ceasing production route, will restart production. Simple as that.

I seem to recall you HAVE to enforce patents within a year of issue for them to be valid. You can't just sit on the patent and wait until dozens of companies are infringing on it to start suing them.

[dmocratic]

Originally posted by dwab3000
Look i know sp is going to kill all electros soon...and only have their own... now this is a way around all sp problems...ok for the x-mag / e-mag we give them away...but we give them away after someone has donated the recommended price...Copyright laws only gets you if you sell their design...it makes complete sense...[...]

No, it's nonsense. For one thing, copyright law applies regardless of whether you sell the copyrighted material or give it away, and for another, the issue with SP and electros is patent law, not copyright law, and patent law is different. There is no "fair use" under patent law.

IANAL, but I have 21 US patents to my name.

[dmocratic]

Originally posted by DeeEight


And if they fail to sue tippmann, BE, Kingman, WDP, WGP, PMI and other companies with E-guns and MORE MONEY THAN SP does for lawyers in a TIMELY manner, then the patent is unenforced and thus void.

Nope. A patent holder can sue whoever, whenever, over the life of the patent. And most patents are "enforced" by confidential licensing agreements, not by lawsuits. The fact that patent holder isn't suing an apparant infringer may be evidence that such an agreement exists, or may simply mean that the patent holder doesn't think it's worth the expense to enforce the patent against that one infringer. There is no requirement that all infringing parties must be sued.


I seem to recall you HAVE to enforce patents within a year of issue for them to be valid. You can't just sit on the patent and wait until dozens of companies are infringing on it to start suing them.

Nope. You have one year from the time you publish the idea, or start selling the idea, until you have to file at the USPTO. But you can sue whenever, and in fact, many succesful patent lawsuits have indeed been initiated many years after the patent was issued.

[swanster]

it was nohing to do with AGDE, John Sosta said that he would keep on making x-mags if they were wanted. I t is in another post on AO

[Lee]

imo: agd usa is not making e markers any longer so that they DO NOT GET approached by sp. agd is being pro active and waiting for the dust to settle.

sp is going after smaller companies first since they are the path of least resistance and revenue can be generated for sp through a licensing agreement or, in the case of aka, competition can be removed there by potentially boosting sales of sp markers by removing a choice from the consumer.
one less brand on sale, one more chance for sp to make a sale. and rememebr, it doesn't have to be an sp marker thats sold, it could be any marker manufactured and sold under sp license.

in buisness, it's all about volume of sales. enforcing a patent and having a licensing agreement with companies that produce items based on the patent you own causes an increase in volume without you having to do anything much other than pay a lawyer. after the outlay of cash to the lawyer, everything else is gravy. no employess to pay, no machinery to maintain or keep updated, no marketing costs, no inventory storage costs, no insurance plans/retirement /taxes (roughly 30% of revenue goes to taxes or so i have heard-could be wrong though). total hands off buisness venture except to endorse the checks.

agd usa does not have the volume of sales on e markers to make it practical to pay a royalty. a royalty would either have to be absorbed by the company (marker cost remains the same and agd eats royalty out of profit margin) or the royalty gets passed along to consumers (most likely scenario...most buisnesses would do this).

now, try to think like mr. kaye. what would you do?
bear in mind that he produces more than just paintball markers and parts.

i don't like what sp is doing, but it's hella smart and is not going to go away with as much potential gain to sp as i have outlined above.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Once BE, Kingman, PMI beats them, everyone else can go back to court with SP and use their arguments. So if they win(which they will) all the other companies, if they want, can go back to court and fight SP. And as for higher prices, your wrong. Look at bushys. They are the same price as they were before all of this if not lower. But then again the Freestyle may have originally been 300 or so cheaper. And this is going to cause innovation, not destroy it all. Look at what TK is doing, well think about what we know he is doing. From what we know he is developing a new radically designed gun that will be the best ever and will not be infriging on any patent.

[chairman_mao]

As the Head Knight of Ni said let nature take it's course. I believe (not sure though) that patents expire after seven years. I know this is true on drug patents but I'm not sure how it translates to other things. If I am correct then all the companies wh stopped production will be able to pick back up again in 2011. Who knows the technology of paintball may now be drasticly altered. Maybe AKA or AGD will unveil somehting, that makes all of SP's fancy electros obselete, and patent it.

All these post full of schemes and conjecture about what we can do to stop SP or how we need the "big" companies to stand up to Sp are getting kinda old. What's done is done and our little cult huddled away in a corner of the internet is not going to change the past. I look foward to the radical new designs that this flimsy patent enforcement will bring about and I say

VIVA LA MECH

[Dryden]

Originally posted by chairman_mao
I believe (not sure though) that patents expire after seven years.Depends on the type of patent and when it was applied for. If memory serves, patents prior to the American Inventors Protection Act of 1999 were termed for either 14 or 17 years based on the nature of the patent. Patents after the AIPA are 20 years from the date of filing.

I look foward to the radical new designs that this flimsy patent enforcement will bring aboutAmen. God forbid a company should actually make something innovative to get around a patent. The problem of course, as TK has expressed before, is not whether or not we all like what's next from AGD, but rather if it's available in colors and has Dye engraved on it somewhere.

[dwab3000]

we wouldnt need lawyers. See their patent restricts the SALE. If the case is we get sued whats the worst that happens. I have a room mate that is taking the bar in a week or so and from what i see he found nothing wrong with this. So by cutting down lawyer costs we wouldnt need all that much money. The thing that would cost the most is the re-designing of the agd store.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by dwab3000
...if sp gets their way they will be the only company....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



First of all, NPS, Dye and ICD have alrady signed agreements with SP, so we will defiantly have matrices, bushmasters, and intimidators as well as impulses and shockers.

ok i said if smart parts gets their way. re-read it. if you had a company though and you made a product then others made a product thats alike you wouldnt want them taking your buissness so youd drop down a patent on your productmaking so they would have to pay large amounts of money each time they sold a product. now people are buying your product because you can lower your prices. the other company is going out because they had to raise prices due to the fees they had to pay to your company. i hope this helps you because its what sp is trying to do ok. we will have those markers of course but the prices will have to raised greatly so they caqn compinsate for the fees they pay to sp. repeating myself sp has the power to now lower the prices of their markers. think about it. when i was a kid my mom started to buy multiple multi family homes. when she rented one out she looked for flaws in the other houses around it. she pointed out their prices were more and that we could always talk about the price as long as it stayed reasonable and niether one was going to be losing much more than expected. ofcourse with this strategy she sold much more houses then other people in the area. i grew up around buissness so dont welcome me ive been here. i read the whole sp patent showed my idea to my soon to be lawyer friend he agrees its a perfect way around. and as far as you said the x-mag was a problem with AGDE. no read all forums about the discontinue of the x/e -mag. almost everypost is a new fact about how sp is involved. i wonder why every store owner i talk to about it say it cause of sp.

[Dryden]

Originally posted by dwab3000
we wouldnt need lawyers.Yes you would. Even a preventive action - such as asking the USPTO to audit the patent - would prompt a patent infringement claim from SP. Whether valid or not, you're going to court. Heck, you need a patent lawyer just to get the paperwork filed for the audit.


See their patent restricts the SALE.No, patents apply to USE. You (or your room mate, or whoever) seems to have muddied copyright and patent law together. They are two distinct areas of intellectual property law, with different case law and history governing each.

Patent law exemptions really only apply to inventions of atomic energy and nuclear weapons. There are others, but I'm not going to detail every exception.

In 35 USC 273, Section (a) (2), it is explicitly stated:

"in the case of activities performed by a nonprofit research laboratory, or nonprofit entity such as a university, research center, or hospital, a use for which the public is the intended beneficiary shall be considered to be a use described in paragraph (1)"

where paragraph (a) (1) defines what commercial use is regarding infringement defenses, specifically:

"an actual arm's-length sale or other arm's-length commercial transfer of a useful end result"

Even if you're a non profit organization and you give a product away for the good of the public, it's still patent infringement. The legalese is so detailed as to even specifically mention that universities and hospitals are not exempt!!

As was already mentioned, patent law doesn't allow for FAIR USE.

What you mention in the thread lead IS valid, and actually has been done before, when applied to copyrights - but not to patents. AT&T used to give away Unix for free, provided you bought $10,000 worth of pre-paid technical support, back when the anti-trust settlement of 1954(?) barred AT&T from selling software.


If the case is we get sued whats the worst that happens.Um ... fines, injunctions, jail.


So by cutting down lawyer costs we wouldnt need all that much money. The thing that would cost the most is the re-designing of the agd store.I could redesign AGD's store in a weekend. Any fool with a computer can do e-commerce and web design. You're not going to find a patent attorney that cheap.

EDIT: Oh, and I should add one more thing to prove how monumentously difficult it is to invalidate a patent in court. From the same section (b) (4) of the same document (35 USC 273), regarding Defense to Infringement - Burden of Proof:

"A person asserting the defense under this section shall have the burden of establishing the defense by clear and convincing evidence."

So, the burden is on the defense. You have to explicitly detail, beyond a doubt, that you NEVER got the idea for an electro marker from not only SP, but any other company. You have to PROVE you or someone else 'invented' the concept of the modern e-marker to invalidate SP's patent claim, AND that the original inventor never sold rights to or was employed by SP.

Good luck.

[dmocratic]

Originally posted by dwab3000
we wouldnt need lawyers. See their patent restricts the SALE.

Wrong. From the USPTO web site:
The right conferred by the patent grant is [...]
“the right to exclude others from making, using, offering
for sale, or selling” the invention in the United States
or “importing” the invention into the United States.

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/whatis.htm

So, by law, you can't even make something for
your own personal use if it violates a patent
you do not own or license.

[EsPo]

Originally posted by personman
That hurt to read.
Add a bit more capitialization, correct grammer and sentence structure, punctuation, and putting it in paragraph form wouldn't hurt either.
Personman ALWAYS uses capitalization, correct grammer and sentence structure, puncuation, and correct paragraph form.

1337 isn't that easy on the eyes either.

[Chris42050]

If these hair-brained schemes could work, than companies would be using them. Simple answer is... there is no simple answer. Give it up. SP won this round. It's up to the makers of the paintball guns to win round 2. And I think most people in the paintball community are hoping they do.

[personman]

Originally posted by EsPo

Personman ALWAYS uses capitalization, correct grammer and sentence structure, puncuation, and correct paragraph form.

1337 isn't that easy on the eyes either.
I never said I did. However, when writing longarse explanations or stories or whatever, I try to make it READABLE.
Who says I use 1337?

[EsPo]

Originally posted by personman

I never said I did. However, when writing longarse explanations or stories or whatever, I try to make it READABLE.
Who says I use 1337?
Status of Personman: I AM 1336!!!!!!

My eyes hurt.

You shouldn't tell people to stop doing something if you do it yourself, hypocrite.


Having said that, I love you.

[Cryer]

[/thread]






...:confused:

...try this again...
[/thread]






...:confused: :mad:


[/thread][/thread][/thread][/thread][/thread]:mad: :mad: :mad: :o AAARG!!!

Why cant I do it like Cphilip does?!?!!:(
http://www.automags.org/forums/images/threadclosed.gif

[personman]

Originally posted by EsPo

Status of Personman: I AM 1336!!!!!!

My eyes hurt.

You shouldn't tell people to stop doing something if you do it yourself, hypocrite.


Having said that, I love you.
Someone needs to send you back to kindergarden. 1336 DOES NOT EQUAL 1337. ;)
And if your eyes hurt from reading a number, then you should most likely see an optometrist.

Sigh.
I may not have perfect grammer, but atleast people can read my posts.
I also am not sure if you can distinguish a command from a suggestion. Obviousally you read my post as a command. It was a suggestion. I can't very well command someone to do something over the internet. That doesn't work very well.
The least I ask of him is to stop using ... instead of .
Hell I dont even care. Just a friendly suggestion and I get jumped on by a few people.


I love you too EsPo. :o

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

we wouldnt need lawyers. See their patent restricts the SALE. If the case is we get sued whats the worst that happens. I have a room mate that is taking the bar in a week or so and from what i see he found nothing wrong with this. So by cutting down lawyer costs we wouldnt need all that much money. The thing that would cost the most is the re-designing of the agd store.

Yes, you do need lawyers or you might as well just bend over and take it up the...err...You would lose without lawyers, simple as that. If you roommate is just passing the bar exam, then I KNOW he doesn't have enough experience to deal with this case. Things don't always go by the textbook in the court room.
And web design is pretty easy. Looking at the AGD store, it would take a day or two to redesign the whole thing, nothing complex over there at all, just a straightforward, to the point store.



ok i said if smart parts gets their way. re-read it. if you had a company though and you made a product then others made a product thats alike you wouldnt want them taking your buissness so youd drop down a patent on your productmaking so they would have to pay large amounts of money each time they sold a product.

How about you re read my post? I said NPS, ICD, and Dye already have agreements with SP, so their prices would not raise, they would get lower from this point on. Dye Matrices are already dropping in price. And when I read past the second sentence in that part of the post, I don't understand one thing you said. What I think you were trying to say is that if a company makes a product and other companies make similar products that are similar, I wouldn't want them stealing my buisness so I'd ENFORCE a patent on my product so they would have to pay me per unit sold. As I said earlier, Dye, NPS and ICD have agreements with SP, so they are safe! I'm pretty sure that SP got a nice sum of money plus some comissions for each gun sold.


now people are buying your product because you can lower your prices. the other company is going out because they had to raise prices due to the fees they had to pay to your company. i hope this helps you because its what sp is trying to do ok. we will have those markers of course but the prices will have to raised greatly so they caqn compinsate for the fees they pay to sp. repeating myself sp has the power to now lower the prices of their markers. think about it. when i was a kid my mom started to buy multiple multi family homes. when she rented one out she looked for flaws in the other houses around it. she pointed out their prices were more and that we could always talk about the price as long as it stayed reasonable and niether one was going to be losing much more than expected. ofcourse with this strategy she sold much more houses then other people in the area. i grew up around buissness so dont welcome me ive been here. i read the whole sp patent showed my idea to my soon to be lawyer friend he agrees its a perfect way around. and as far as you said the x-mag was a problem with AGDE. no read all forums about the discontinue of the x/e -mag. almost everypost is a new fact about how sp is involved. i wonder why every store owner i talk to about it say it cause of sp.

I really don't care what your mom did, that does not give you and ounce of credibility. Most of the things you have said will not work at all. Matrix prices have gone down since the agreement was signed, Intimidator prices, I dont know, and ICD prices have slightly increased, but not by much (or I think they did anyway, not too sure).
As far as AGD discontinuing the emag, how about YOU go back and read some post around here? The Emag IS being discontinued because Tom felt the technology was outdated. The Xmag was stopped because AGDe is working on some other project, and it wasn't on top of their prioritys or something like that. Most store owners don't know crap. I spend probably about 54 hours per week on AO and PBN (yes, I have no life), and probably know more about current issues in paintball than most store owners. Most people outside the paintball forums have no idea what's going on with SP and everything else.

ANYWAY, what I'm really trying to say is that if SP's case held no credibility, large companies like Dye and NPS would have fought them. I know that they have enough resources to do so. Appearently they hold some ground with their patent. Dye and NPS didn't just decide oh, lets pay X amount of money to Smart Parts because they claimed to have a patent that we infringed. They most definately consulted lawyers before making their decision.

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

Oh, and just for the record, here is Tom's post on why the Xmag and Emag are discontinued:


I didn't answer because I am busy doing stuff tonight but I see that its going to cause a big ruckus if I dont.

Here is the short explanation. AGDE has taken a job to run the National Paintball Europe distribution center. They will still distribute our products but making bodies is not high on the list. They are machining the last of the extrusions so there will only be one more batch of about 50 xmags. Some people on the list will not get them, sorry I dont know what to say.

The Emag is going on 4 years old and is due for a complete revamp. We will be selling off the last of them (about 250) and discontinuing that product.

Now the bad news, with the current legal situations going on in paintball it is not strategicaly smart for us to invest in a new e-marker at this time. We are going to wait until the dust settles and see who comes out on top before we proceed with a new design.

We will work slowly on a new concept that will eliminate the large battery and charger, incorporate the ULT trigger system and completely new electronics. We don't expect to introduce this marker until 2005 if it makes sense to do so.

The point of all this is that we are making these decisions based on industry influences. Our customers have nothing to do with the products we do or don't develop these days. Think about it.

AGD

[Dryden]

You know, now that I think about it, I'm going to call you out on your roommate, your cousin Vinny, or whoever the heck you've been talking to who you claim is taking the BAR in a couple of weeks, since that's not possible.

The MBE is only offered on the last Wednesday of February and the last Wednesday of July, unless Connecticut does something bass ackwards.

I'm stealing Cryer's post ...

[/thread]

[yeahthatsme]

Originally posted by dwab3000
hey i am at least trying here nt2004...if sp gets their way they will be the only company....
btw i am not trying to save em myself.first of all thats not a good idea and it was to show tom kaye an idea how he could keep up on the production of x/e mags instead of canceling em..
if tom kaye can go through this way then it will help other companies save themselves...ok
and i will edit this saturday...im truly posting between classes...not enught true time


wow.... i respect you wanting to do something but atleast know what your talking about before you do. smart parts hasnt shut down any company, the one company they pressured for a hearing stopped production on their own. they already have deals signed with about 4 companies, so i dont see them being the only one.

[Chris42050]

like I said its up to the paintball companies to win round 2 and the hAIR trigger is a good start. We dont need electros to get speed and trigger ease in a paintball gun. And we dont need half arsed ideas to save paintball either. We just need innovation.