The NPPL won't allow my RT mag

[Lethargic]

I just got back from NPPL Huntington Beach last night, and I have a few disturbing facts to share with you all. First off, my mag (x-valve, lx w/2.0 carrier, short spring, no shims, ULT with 3 shims, running 850 input) was disqualified due to "trigger bounce" It was discovered by the ref that if my trigger was pulled very slowly over the course of 5-10 seconds, it would cause the gun to fire a 2-shot burst. I had never even tried this before, and never would have thought to because it is essentially useless, but nonetheless, My gun was DQ'd for the day. I didn't have the time change my configuration, so it stayed out of commision the whole tournament.

What really disturbed me was the comment I heard form another ref, that " at least 95%" of all RT mags can be disqualified in this way. He went on to say that he hadn't seen ANY mechanical mags that were legal under NPPL rules.

It really doesn't make me happy to hear any of that, especially since I already have a ULT. I absolutely love this mag, and have never been happier with any other marker. I emailed AGD about this last night, so hopefully they have a solution. When I get a reply, I'll post it up here.

PS, anyone have any ideas how else to reduce bounce?

[TraXeR]

What psi are you running at, I think a lower psi input will lower your 'bounce' chance. Not sure, but it might. This might be something you can find out in the tech forum.

[Lethargic]

a lower input might fix it, but I have an 850 psi preset.

I was posting this more as a heads up to anyone who might be thinking aobut using a mag in NPPL events in the future.

[cphilip]

This is how I test mine before going to a tournament and I have always been able to get it out. Might want to do this yourself and do some adjusting. May even take some messing with input pressure as well. Not much but I found a few presets that were way to high and not adjustable. That becomes a problem and is why I always encourage a RTP user to use an adjustable tank. But for the most part I can get it allmost all out if not all out even with those. The ULT helps do that as well.

There are not many markers out there now a days you cannot get to do that though. Not just RT's. This guy might be the same guy I have run into before. There are a some of them... they look only where they want too. But I got news for him.... a lot of the others are illegal too. AND some of the other ones CANNOT be fixed. That RT can be.

[Miscue]

I wonder how many cheating electros were allowed by this ref. I think DQing your RTP is just plain stupid... that's far from flagrant trigger bounce.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Lethargic
a lower input might fix it, but I have an 850 psi preset.

I was posting this more as a heads up to anyone who might be thinking aobut using a mag in NPPL events in the future.

Your input may NOT be 850 no matter what the tank is supposed to be. You need to measure it and check. Just to know where you are. I got a Crossfire here that a kid had this same issue with that after all I did I was still getting a little bounce. So finaly I stuck a guage in his other side of his screw in on off and it was like a tad over 900. Maybe 925. Brand new tank. We got it all out in spite of that with a ULT kit adjustment.

We already know this. Its been going on for years. Its the rules though. Always has been. Good thing is most of them are checking ALL kinds of markers now. You would be suprised how many others are doing it now. Not just RTP's. That guy is training himself to rumors and myths more than anything. But his job is to check them all that way. And he should be finding a lot of other markers doing things like that.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Miscue
I wonder how many cheating electros were allowed by this ref. I think DQing your RTP is just plain stupid... that's far from flagrant trigger bounce.

Agreed. No way you could duplicate that in a game. And in fact recently an occasional single bounce event was supposed to be overlooked if it took some effort to produce that could not be duplicated in play. And that was supposed to be the rule made plain to all NPPL refs. This one must have not gotten the memo....

[cphilip]

...in fact you should write a nice and respectfull letter to Bill Cookston and explain who and when it happened. Make sure its not like whining or anything. But what you describe is not what Bill told them to do.

[Lethargic]

whcih way do you adjust the ULT to make it bounce less? More shims or less? we had a short break and i took out 2 of my 3 shims, but that gave me a ton of bolt stick, and I just gave up because I had to get ready for another game.

[RoadDawg]

Ouch. No wonder I didn't see any mags. I could of probably offered my 45/4500 flatline but it probably would've been to small.

[tjmpaintball06]

sorry bout the DQ. i'm sure if you politely informed them about the problem they would fix it.

[GT]

adjustible, adjustable adjustible.... cant say it enough on a mech mag. any small amount of bounced can be killed with a 600-650psi input.

jb

[GT]

also make sure that you are screwing in the field strip with an allen wrech.

[joshweinerhead]

i thought the ULT killed all trigger bounce?

[wobbles82]

When I had a ULT it actually made the bounce go crazy. I am pretty sure it was more shims that made it more reactive, try doing some less. And yes, an adjustable will do wonders. I used my ULE RTPX last year in Jersey with no problems at all, refs did seem to check it a bit more than our Timmys and all, but they really come down on E-Cockers and RT guns. BUT ! He really should not have fired that many shots..I dunno what he was doing, its pretty much 3 shots standard, maybe he did feel something before the intial 10 shots.

[Beemer]

Wow thats pretty picky. Did ya hear if they DQd any other markers. There had to be more if they were picking that bad.
Any hot guns or penalties, how was the reffing etc......tell us more

Just curious, what frame,rail and body is on your gun and what was your back up

[AGD]

Well from your description I would say that it was pretty obvious the ref was out to get you from the start. Pulling on a trigger for SECONDS is making quite an effort to bounce it.

If you have the ULT in and it was bouncier, then you have something setup wrong. The comment about removing the shims in the ULT and it got worse makes me think your bolt or sear is wearing out.

If your going to be serious about big tournaments you should really get an adjustable tank so you can properly dial in your gun. Those screw in's constantly misslead people by saying they are "preset".

AGD

[GT]

No one has mentioned this but,
There are two typical ways a "rule" or "law" is enforced; by the book or in spirit. The reason we disallow bounce is to keep ROF down and safe. So I would have asked the question if following the same activity at the chrono station while on the feild was "in spirit" of the rule.

"Does shooting 2bps with bounce create an unsafe and unfair envorinment?"

Sometimes I wonder if there is a huge IQ gap in paintball compared with the normal population..... education and paintball..... a topic I dont want to start... :)

[Beemer]

Originally posted by gtrsi
Sometimes I wonder if there is a huge IQ gap in paintball compared with the normal population..... education and paintball..... a topic I dont want to start... :)

Ok I wont go there if you dont but I had to use this


Originally posted by sneakyhacker420
basically, its ignorance, and i don't like ignorance... theres just too much of it in the world of paintball

From here

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130367

[lamby]

this is along the same lines and happened at the PSP chicago event last year..

***Warning, this is a repost and I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR THE "REASONS THAT I AM WRONG" AGAIN********

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89225&highlight=chicago

I just want to let you know that these issues WERE addresed, and AGD has still not fixed them...

I still think the RT valve should be banned (unless you remove the mechanical aspect of it, then you get what I had in Chicago)

[Lethargic]

Well, let me try to address everyone in one post.

First off, Cphil, how would I reach Bill Cookston? Should I just use the contact info on the NPPL website? Or is there a more direct email address?

Roaddawg, thanks for the offer. I probably would have been fine with a 45/45 since I'm up front, but this way I got to play using everyone's backup markers, from a slider cocker all the way up to a Lasoya Timmy I was lent by a friend who lived in the area. Chalk this one up as a learning experience.

Gtrsi, I had a 68/3k flatline, sold it for my preset... what can i say, i just wanted more air. didn't realize it was such a big difference, but it is.
And for some reason, turning that screw all the way in makes my mag not reset after being shot one time. Wierd stuff. SO I'm going to send it out to Havoc sometime soon for him to look at it.

Josh, I thought it did too, and I'm pretty sure mine is set up wrong. Thats why it's going to Havoc.

Beemer, all the DQ'd markers I heard of all weekend came off the guy at the System X field. I heard about a Matrix that could do double shots if fired similar to my mag, and a whole lot of complaining about people's timmys getting DQ'd, which made me happier. THe guy was good at finding bouncing markers, but sometimes he would just get infatuated with a single gun, adn get it to bounce no mattter what (he shot a half-hopper out of my mag before he declared it illegal)
On tahe hot guns/cheater boards I'm going to go out on a limb and say it is either an isolated issue or unnoticed by me. I never felt a hot hit, and I never really felt that somebody was shooting too fast for their own good, but I wasn't really looking for them either.
Overall, the reffing on Friday was INCREDIBLE. I saw almost no argueable calls, no cheating left unpunished, and little to no foul play. It was some of the best and fairest playing I have ever seen.
SATURDAY, on the other hand, was a different story. It was like every ref woke up on the wrong side of bed and was trying to take it out on the players. And the players, being in crunch time, were out for blood. The only field really well officiated was the NPPL field, cause it had the bleachers and the most spectators. I still had fun, it was just a lot rougher game. I think the NPPL should try and get a second shift of Refs next year, cause these guys were just dog-tired after 10-12 hours a day. And you can't blame em.

AGD, I totally agree. The guy KNEW he could bounce hte mag that way, thats why he did it. The mag is going out to Havoc like I said above, because I know there are some quirks. And on the adjustable issue... you wouldn't want to cut me a deal on a 72/45 flatline, would ya:D ;)

Gtrsi, this was my main issue with this guy. Yes it bounced, but no it wasn't useable.

Lamby, I'm tired, and don't feel like reading the whole thing, but it sounds like you got on the wrong side of an overjealous ref, same as I did.

[AGD]

To once and for all address the issue of bouncing in the RT trigger, if you don't want it to bounce, then just replace the on/off assembly with the stock non-RT one and it goes away permanently.

AGD

[Enemy]

for all who read lambys post on the other thread... the problems were all caused bye the players action to try to elminate a problem that wasnt there the e mags should pass a crono inspection cuz the point would not be to look for bounce but to chrono the gun.. the bounce should be addressed in the mode played in.. the refs need to realize that this gun is reactive but is hard to get runaway i.e. it takes tinkering and is obvious.. refs need to get off the rules and get on the rules. as for everyone else if this is a considerable problem for you invest in a non agd back up if the ref banns your main use the back up and after the game file a complaint with the coordinator of the event.. there are people out there that hate agd and all who own one trust me ive run into them and for once all i can say to them is chuff chuff...

[lord1234]

removing the bounce by replacing the ON/off pin...will that still allow it to react as well? ie will i still be able to achieve same rate of fire?

--Lord1234

[lamby]

so I need to buy a new on/off asssy top and bottom to fix a design flaw? Will this work in emags? will there be enough pressure to reset the sear and the solenoid? I was told that the old on/off CAN NOT be used in emags by the AGD staff. Now what is it?

HUMMM there is that quality again. I need another e-class to replace my e-mag.

[shaunyoung000]

Thats a load of horse mess, I'd DQ that ref for being stupid. I definately would have received stupid points by talking to him. I really wouldn't be too concerned.

[lamby]

why would you not be concerned? markers getting DQed is MOST DEFINATELY something to be concerned about.

That is why I dont use the emag anymore.

The emag is durable, fairly consistant, easy to work on. All in all a good tourney marker minus the MAJOR problems like software, trigger adustability, and bounce that make it USELESS at tourneys.

[AGD]

The regular on/off pin works in the mechanical RT gun which is what this thread was talking about. The work around for emags is to take out the trigger rod and disable the mech side.

AGD

[lamby]

Tom,

Then how do you measure for "shootup"? following your own chrono proceedures state that you have to chrono in mech mode and hold the trigger back and quickly fire the marker.

I removed my trigger rod in mine way before I went to chicago last year and I almost got all 3 of the emags DQed becasue of doing just that. What is your solution to this catch 22?

**edit** Tom, please check the above post about Chicago and then tell me how to make the marker legal. This was all addressed a year ago and still not "fixed" **edit**

[Toxic Dave]

Bill Cookston has nothing to do with either major paintball league anymore, the person in charge of reffing for NPPL is Phil Dominguez, and for the PSP is Robert "Rosie" Rose.

The fact of the matter is it was guys job to find guns with trigger bounce in them, and was, anybody with any marker knowledge knows that it's pretty easy to make RT's do weird things trigger wise if you know what you are doing. I knwo that if I'm chronoing guns with Max Flows on them, 8 out of 10 times the reg isn't locked and I can make a gun shoot reallllllllllly hot if I so desire, same with LPR's on Matrix's, if you know what you looking for you can find it on many markers.

dave

[the123]

Originally posted by Toxic Dave
I knwo that if I'm chronoing guns with Max Flows on them, 8 out of 10 times the reg isn't locked and I can make a gun shoot reallllllllllly hot if I so desire
dave

which way do you crank the Max Flow to increase velocity? cw? or ccw?