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edweird

03-22-2004, 03:47 AM

Figures that a year after we went into iraq again... they have to pull some crap like this...

I dont like your tone, but I do agree that they were pretty off base sending an airstrike against a founder of Hamas that is a quadraplegic and well lets just say a soft target.

Blood will beget blood, and well as someone with a less synical tone... I cant blame USA for this anymore than I can blame us for thowing the afganis weapons to combat the soviets or the iraquis for fighting against Iran.

remember its our guys and gals out there giveing you the freedom to say what ya want at the cost of their humanity. So watch where ya throw the blame.

1stdeadeye

03-22-2004, 06:50 AM

Originally posted by Flamebo
This just makes me proud to be an AMERICAN! We support a country who shoots missles at cripples from helicopters that we paid for. Marvelous.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20040322/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

So because he is a cripple, he should get a free pass for ordering all of the violence he did. This was no man of peace. Because he did not phsyically carry out the violence does not make him any less guilty. I have no problem with this hit.

A Fish rots from the head! To cripple Hamas they needed to decapitate the organization.

Bravo I say!

shartley

03-22-2004, 06:57 AM

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye

So because he is a cripple, he should get a free pass for ordering all of the violence he did. This was no man of peace. Because he did not phsyically carry out the violence does not make him any less guilty. I have no problem with this hit.

A Fish rots from the head! To cripple Hamas they needed to decapitate the organization.

Bravo I say!
I agree. A person’s physical state does not dictate the level of responsibility for crimes or deaths. But they often use that to their advantage…. As has been seen in this thread.

edweird

03-22-2004, 08:28 AM

its still an application of force question... Dunno if 3 air to ground missles = Crippled dude in a wheelchair. Especially doing it as he is leaving a religious service.

Its a good thing that he was finally killed but I think Ariel Sharon has a screw loose when it comes to tactfully eliminating high value targets. Its not exactly like the guy is Dr. Claw after all.

shartley

03-22-2004, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by edweird
its still an application of force question... Dunno if 3 air to ground missles = Crippled dude in a wheelchair. Especially doing it as he is leaving a religious service.

Its a good thing that he was finally killed but I think Ariel Sharon has a screw loose when it comes to tactfully eliminating high value targets. Its not exactly like the guy is Dr. Claw after all.
Oh…. So it is how he was killed, not that he WAS killed. I understand now. There is of course a difference in levels of “dead”. ;)

I see it as they saw an opportunity, and used what they thought would do the job…. Obviously it DID. :D

Sure, I would agree that sending in a lone hitman would have probably caused the same level of “death” and eliminated the target.. but it does not send as nice of a statement, does it? And then folks would call the removal an act of cowardice. But this way that can’t be said.

And think about it…. since he was leaving a religious service, his soul should be well prepared for the afterlife. ;)

As for him not being “Dr. Claw”…. Try selling that idea to those who have loved ones who are dead because he gave the word.

I guess we just disagree on this one.

Thordic

03-22-2004, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by Flamebo
This just makes me proud to be an AMERICAN! We support a country who shoots missles at cripples from helicopters that we paid for. Marvelous.

I'm all for any country that is willing to stop twiddling their thumbs and kill terrorists.

I'm sorry, would you like us to just let the terrorists live out their happy little lives?

When they blow up your family, I'll be the first to care. Promise.

edweird

03-22-2004, 09:06 AM

Well I consider it status quo for the country that brought us the .50 cal desert eagle handgun and Mossad hit squads are as common as... well they cant be that common if they called in an airstrike vs the highly mobile quadrapelgic in a wheelchair.

I guess if they are in a wheelchair its considered a light armored vehicle.

If this was an operation operated by the US we would of never stired the proverbial beehive by blowing the bejebuss out of them as they exited a religious service. Honestly Ariel Sharon is really gonna have a bloodbath on his hands when they put down the corpse and pick up the bomb belts. Honestly If Ariel Sharon would of been a little less blazing saddles on this im sure it wouldnt be as huge as this will be.

shartley

03-22-2004, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by edweird
Well I consider it status quo for the country that brought us the .50 cal desert eagle handgun and Mossad hit squads are as common as... well they cant be that common if they called in an airstrike vs the highly mobile quadrapelgic in a wheelchair.

I guess if they are in a wheelchair its considered a light armored vehicle.

If this was an operation operated by the US we would of never stired the proverbial beehive by blowing the bejebuss out of them as they exited a religious service. Honestly Ariel Sharon is really gonna have a bloodbath on his hands when they put down the corpse and pick up the bomb belts. Honestly If Ariel Sharon would of been a little less blazing saddles on this im sure it wouldnt be as huge as this will be.
LOL That is funny. “Light Armored Vehicle” :D But we do the same thing when using the .50 Cal. Machine Gun. WE use it to shoot equipment, not the people wearing the equipment, because shooting people with it would be against the rules, right? ;)

And I have to point out that we are NOT running the operation, nor are our people being killed in our own streets by terrorist attacks on a regular basis either. I would bet that if we were in this situation our response would be a bit more than three helicopter launched missiles…. And the actions would be backed by the majority of our citizens.

And they already HAVE a blood bath… that is why they did what they did.

But I could be wrong….. ;)

DukeNukem#1

03-22-2004, 09:24 AM

if they were space marines, they wouldn't last very long.

Go USA!!!

Flamebo

03-22-2004, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by shartley

Oh…. So it is how he was killed, not that he WAS killed. I understand now.

Well, if you're gonna make it that easy...

Yes, HOW he was killed is a large part of the reason why this is an embarassment. Not only was it a shameless and cowardly attack, but ideally a civilian would have to be tried and convicted of specific crimes before being blown away by missles.

shartley

03-22-2004, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Flamebo
Well, if you're gonna make it that easy...

Yes, HOW he was killed is a large part of the reason why this is an embarassment. Not only was it a shameless and cowardly attack, but ideally a civilian would have to be tried and convicted of specific crimes before being blown away by missles.
Ideally he would not have advocated, planned, and ordered terrorist attacks either. ;)

To me, terrorists do not deserve “civilian” measures and practices for their actions.. they deserve the full military might that can be brought against them for THEIR cowardly acts. Terrorists declare WAR on society and governments, but are afraid to direct their attacks on true combatants but instead choose to direct their attacks against unarmed civilians who have nothing to do with anything.

So before you start labeling military action as “cowardice”, you may want to put it in perspective with the reason FOR that action.

But hey, that is just what I think on the matter. You commit an act of cowardice and WAR against my people, and I will come at you with the biggest stick I can. There is NO “proportional” response. There is no “civilian justice”. You declare war, you GET war.

Sparq

03-22-2004, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Flamebo
Not only was it a shameless and cowardly attack, but ideally a civilian would have to be tried and convicted of specific crimes before being blown away by missles.

How exactly do you define 'cowardice' when it comes to assassination? Should they have sent someone else in a wheel chair to stab him instead? Give him a fair chance perhaps? Air to surface missiles will kill you just as dead as any other weapon....if the outcome is the same either way, why does it matter how they carried out the attack? Missiles, bombs, guns...the only difference I can think of would only apply had they used a poison of some nature...and only then because it seems 'insidious'. The way they did it was effective, straightforward, and obvious as to who was responsible - no uncertainty, no confusion. What's the problem?

Thordic

03-22-2004, 10:53 AM

I never understood this whole overkill arguement.

In my mind, the bigger the weapon, the more humane it is.

If you shoot someone with a .223 slug, chances are it won't kill them instantly, and if they die, it'll be after some considerable pain.

If you shoot someone with a .50 caliber slug, odds are they are dead within seconds if not instantly.

If you shoot someone with a missile and vaporize them, well, then they clearly didn't suffer at all in their passing.

MISSILES ARE HUMANE! :)

FactsOfLife

03-22-2004, 10:59 AM

1stdeadeye

03-22-2004, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by Thordic
I never understood this whole overkill arguement.

Me neither. Once they are dead, they are dead. ;)

Seriously though, this guy has survived other hit attempts before. So better safe then sorry.

Look at his history. This monster was the head of an organization that has declared war on Israel but only attacks soft targets. As the head of such a group, he is completely fair game.

Flamebo

03-23-2004, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by Sparq

How exactly do you define 'cowardice' when it comes to assassination?

Using excessive military force when they could have -- I don't know -- ARRESTED him? Launching air-to-surface missles in a crowded area outside a place of worship is disgusting.

1stdeadeye

03-23-2004, 06:42 AM

Israel isn't finished yet either! (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,114917,00.html)

They will continue to target and take out Hamas and other terrorist leaders! Good for them!

shartley

03-23-2004, 07:29 AM

Originally posted by Flamebo
Using excessive military force when they could have -- I don't know -- ARRESTED him? Launching air-to-surface missles in a crowded area outside a place of worship is disgusting.
They didn’t blow him up when he was IN the place of worship.

Also he ALWAYS has a crowd around him.

Excessive military force would have been to level the entire block. Did that happen? You see, excessive in this case is how YOU perceive it to be, not what is factual.

And for me, terrorism is WAR, and how many times do we try to “arrest” people during WAR? Sure, if they give themselves up, you detain them as a POW, but your goal is not out to “arrest” the enemy.

FactsOfLife

03-23-2004, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by Flamebo

Using excessive military force when they could have -- I don't know -- ARRESTED him? Launching air-to-surface missles in a crowded area outside a place of worship is disgusting.

Interesting. So now we are expected to "arrest" people that have declared war on us.

tell me, do you think running a human bomb into an open air market on a saturday morning is disgusting?

ShooterJM

03-23-2004, 12:27 PM

I'm all for the systematic assassination of anyone involved in terrorist organizations. Kill em back.

lord1234

03-23-2004, 03:23 PM

frankly any idjit that orders mothers of 2 to blow themselves up at check points deserves what he gets. If its a missile or 2 in the keister thats fine by me. I support Israel and their actions against terrorists. I would personally make the gaza strip/west bank a parking lot if it was up to me. Simple solution to all these "silly" problems.

Just a thought for you flamebo:

its 1945, you are a us army pilot(back then it was still the army no air force if i am right), and you see hitler(who had somehow hypothetically been crippled and put into a wheelchair)coming out of a church, would you blink before lacing his body with bullets? I know that I wouldn't.

dansim

03-23-2004, 03:29 PM

kill em all, let the trout sort them out

Load SM5

03-23-2004, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by Thordic
I never understood this whole overkill arguement.

In my mind, the bigger the weapon, the more humane it is.

If you shoot someone with a .223 slug, chances are it won't kill them instantly, and if they die, it'll be after some considerable pain.

If you shoot someone with a .50 caliber slug, odds are they are dead within seconds if not instantly.

If you shoot someone with a missile and vaporize them, well, then they clearly didn't suffer at all in their passing.

MISSILES ARE HUMANE! :)

Well speaking as a taxpayer.....a .50 cal bullet is a little cheaper than 3 missles. ;)

lord1234

03-23-2004, 03:35 PM

a "place of worship" have you ever noticed taht some mosques(this is a fact), are used as training grounds for todays youth. Extremist Muslims use these mosques as places to impress upon young men their belief system. Al Qaeda did it, Hamas has done it, Mujahaddin have done it, so have many of the other extremist muslim crazies. I have nothing against muslims as a people. Its lunatics that bother me.

taylor492

03-23-2004, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by ShooterJM
I'm all for the systematic assassination of anyone involved in terrorist organizations. Kill em back.

Saddam should be grateful he didnt get the "shooter" treatment:D

EDIT: yay 200 posts!!!

gamarada717

03-23-2004, 05:18 PM

I agree with the overkill. Dead is dead.

I haven't read the entire article all the way through, or all of these posts, but I think I know what I'm seeing....

Are some of you defending this guy who was killed? The same kind of person who would do something like 9/11? He shot at them first, didn't he? Get over all of it. And just because he was at his place of worship doesn't change any of it. If I kill people, and then I head to my church and someone shoots me, would anybody care? It's just a different setting, and it actually shows how judgmental we all are. :) Sorry if I sound like I'm attacking everyone, just trying to get my point out.

ShooterJM

03-23-2004, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by taylor492
Saddam should be grateful he didnt get the "shooter" treatment:D

Well I think it's a good policy. If you know the person did it (video tapes claiming responsibility, etc etc). BAM! No arrest. No trial. Just BAM.

Mateo

03-23-2004, 06:00 PM

Seriously, why don't they just have a huge war and get this over with. Whats up with all these peace talks anyways? I want war talks! Where we sit them down in a room and they piss each other off so much they just start blowing stuff up. In the end, it will save more lives and settle this once and for all.