is a dye throttle tank worth buying?

[atm743]

i had a 3a paintball 88ci 4500 tank and they jest plane suck. i payed 160 for it new of the site. i had a problem with the reg after a month buying it. a o-ring burst in it. and now the damn pin is leaking. and now i am mad. i have warrenty's but i dont want anymore problems with a tank soo i am jest getting a new one and eather sell it for cheap when i get it back from centerflag or jest kep it as a back up. i found some nice dye's on sale on pb gear for 220. heres the link

http://store.yahoo.com/actionvillage/paintball-gas-systems-nitrogen-systems-dye-nitrogen-systems.html

i am looking in to getting a stubby. are dye tanks good or should i go with the a crossfire?? lmk i need to know i jest got my x valve and ult in and now i can shoot it please help thanks

[RenagadeOfFunk]

I dont quite know but i prefer my dye throttle cause it comes with a tank "cover" and thay are ALL black which i think is shweet...i had a crossfire on my old rt pro and it was fine...both seem to be about the same i just lean towards dye (not because of their domination of paintball) i just think it has a sleek design and it was on salle from $300 like you said :)

[dj89]

thats a cover?

[Lohman446]

Buy two tanks... frankly they are likely much more failure prone then your marker (at least failures that you won't quickly fix). At least it has proven true in my experience.

[atm743]

ya i may keep this 3a one for jest fun but i will need $$ for the dye if i get it. and ya i do to lean more for the dye's. and thats realy cool taht the black thing is a cover cuse now i dont have to muy a stubby one. i am planing on getting a stubby.

[Mango]

I have a Dye Throttle tank, It has worked flawlessly for me for a year now. If I got another screw in, I'd get a Crossfire though. I say that because they are bullet proof and cheaper.

[atm743]

SprayingMango thanks for the help

[Lohman446]

Oh yh.. seems how you were asking for recomendations, I have a pair of crossfires.. wonderful tanks.. as for longevity wouldn't know I don't keep a tank more than a year (personal obsessive and wrong safety issue)

[Mango]

Mine has never given me any problems. It's my only tank at the moment and has never let me down.

[dj89]

what kind? dye cross etc?

[Mango]

Mine is a Dye Throttle Screw in 71 4500.

[magman007]

personally, i would reccomend a crossfire. Crossfire has the fastes recharge of any tank out there.. PGI did a test, and it showed that the crossfire recovered much faster on a single shot, and a shot to shot baisis... Plus, i like crossfire as a tank mfg. They make quality tanks, and they have ben for quite some time. Just a personal preferance. Plus it is cheaper for what you get, ya know?

Do you really need a reg made o titanium? or what ever their marketing plan was? im just saying, i trust crossfire more, even though dye does make kick *** products.

[dj89]

i had a crossy and they are graet tanks i think thats what i'm geting this time to

[Lethargic]

My dye throttle (70/4500) works just fine and has never let me down, but I'm going to go with the general opinion of getting a crossfire. You'll save quite a bit off as opposed to the Dye tank, and the only difference is the name, and a little less of the prettiness:D

[SpecialBlend2786]

wait... so are the Dye tanks fiber wrapped? In the pics it doesn't look like it. Is the fiber just covered up in something like Tuff Skin?

[abunkerer]

my throttle preset let me down all year. problem one it leaked (very slowly) from a little relief hole in the reg, so I took it in and had it replaced (3 weeks) got it back and the recharge rate was really bad took it in and the output pressure was really low so the shop sent it back to dye again...(3 weeks later)Got it back and it still couldn't keep up with my LX emag!sent it in again(3 weeks later) as soon as I got to the shop I put it om my emag and pop/pop/pop chuff pop pop/pop chuf cough..still couldn't keep up. other tanks were able to cycle the gun like a pure energy and a worr gas preset.
The tank was sent away for almost as long as I had used it. and since I had it for 7 months the warranty expired, so dye would not reinburse me..luckily the pball shop is good enough to give me store credit...moral of the story: Some people have had problems with dye tanks.

[Skoad]

dye tank = not necessary

get 2 crossfires instead

[BlackVCG]

Two of my teammates have Crossfire 68ci/4.5K FL's and with 4.0 software, they're able to outshoot the tank. Also, once the tanks drop down to about 1.2K, they start chuffing more often in rapid fire.

Another teammate has a WorrGas and after fixing the initial problems, it has proved to be the best flowing preset I've seen.

I only use Flatlines myself, but if I had to buy a preset, it wouldn't be a Crossfire.

[logamus]

i have a worrgas and a centerflag. they both work fine for me.

[No sKiLLz]

Originally posted by BlackVCG
Two of my teammates have Crossfire 68ci/4.5K FL's and with 4.0 software, they're able to outshoot the tank. Also, once the tanks drop down to about 1.2K, they start chuffing more often in rapid fire.

I only use Flatlines myself, but if I had to buy a preset, it wouldn't be a Crossfire.

Two possibilities:
1. The tank reg is blue and they used a 450 PSI preset on a gun that requires high pressure.

2. Their regs were choking.

The Crossfire tanks are proven on digital pressure gauges to have the lowest drop in pressure between shots for both single and rapid fire, and also the fastest recharge rate.

The article Magman is referring puts the Crossfire head to head with a DYE throttle and Crossfire showed better results accross the board. I find it hard to believe the tanks with the fastest recharge and lowest drop in pressure were choking unless one of the two things listed above were the problem instead.

If you had said they were PMI instead of Crossfire tanks I would believe it.

[abunkerer]

NoSkillz: don't believe the hype.
pmi pure enery tanks recharge faster than crossfires, so do others.

[BlackVCG]

First of all, my teammates aren't idiots. They both have red reg 4.5K tanks.

Also, it's not just them that have the problem DukeofLawnChair on this forum has the same type of Crossfire tank and the exact same problems with his E-Mag.

Just because some magazine did a test doesn't make that test 100% accurate. I'd like to see multiple independent labs run tests on these tanks and then get a real statistical analysis of how presets perform.

Until then, I'll base my opinion on whether the tank can keep up in normal use on an E-Mag.

[No sKiLLz]

Ok, well let's just assume first of all that I am basing my opinion SOLELY on the article. I would like to know just how you can say the data from the graphs is innacurate. You're trying to argue the accuracy of a computerized pressure gauge. Either that, or you are implying the graphs are fabricated or altered. Which is it?

And PMI regs are some of the worst on the market. Call them up and ask them how many regs they repair compared to how many they sell.

Personally I am not so paranoid. You're so afraid of hype that anything "mainstream" immediately becomes the Devil. Go watch "The Waterboy" and get a perspective on your attitude.

[GT]

Originally posted by No sKiLLz
Ok, well let's just assume first of all that I am basing my opinion SOLELY on the article. I would like to know just how you can say the data from the graphs is innacurate. You're trying to argue the accuracy of a computerized pressure gauge. Either that, or you are implying the graphs are fabricated or altered. Which is it?


I am sure that a pb mag is so far removed from a peer reviewed journal; they shouldnt even rest on the same shelf. Furthermore just about every article I have read has been devoid of proper english let alone any intelligible data.

Noskillz,
guys like Black and myself are going to need mountains of data to arrive at a simple conculsion, such as tank A over B. I quick question of mine that pops up is, when was the guage last calibrated, were multiple guages used in the test, who ran the test, were they current with industry stanrdards, etc....?

To be perfectlty honest, I believe, that screw ins are so simliar in desgin that they all flow about the same, lp or hp. I think it really comes down to the quality of the materials used and thier construction. I think that is why you see some people praising one tank while that same tank, to another, is a complete piece of crap.

ATM:
do yourself a favor and save up for a nice adjustible. If you can find a flatline grab it up. My personal favorite is a Dynaflow. You can get them for about 350, new.

[atm743]

gtrsi: ya I wanted to get a flatline so I don’t have to worried about those darn pins in the red and ill have an on off reg but I don’t want to wait much to save up because I am starting to play and I don’t want to waste all of my time trying to save up for a tank when I could be playing. I never heard much about dye tanks that why I posted this thread and it helps allot because I am now leaning to get a crossfire but I am wondering about that recharge thing because my tank is a high output and before it broke and hen I first got it mine did the same thing. It starts to short stroke when it’s around 1000 psi. But my friend had a crossfire tank (dj89) and its a blue reg and I new that it was a low out put reg but the weird thing is he had it on a mag then a e-mag and it shoot fine. . Never shoot down on his e-mag when he had it. I think at this point that I am getting a crossfire now! :D I was going to get a pmi tank but I heard about some of their problems but I know two people that have them and there’s no problems with theirs. Well anyway I got my tank working for an hour then it started to leak again. I was adjusting my ult and it’s a beast now. It shoots as fast as I have the regular on/off on it but now a lighter pull. And when I was shooting it last night I had it shooting rapidly at 500 psi left in my tank! Then it stopped shooting at 300 and when I took of the tank it as leaking a little from the pin in the Wong place. I am thinking now to get a crossfire because the quality and the price. Im am staying with the 4500 but should I get a 70 ci stubby or get a long style 88?? Keep posting on your thoughts on tanks I am still thinking on want to do thanks so much on helping me

[No sKiLLz]

Originally posted by gtrsi


I am sure that a pb mag is so far removed from a peer reviewed journal; they shouldnt even rest on the same shelf. Furthermore just about every article I have read has been devoid of proper english let alone any intelligible data.

Noskillz,
guys like Black and myself are going to need mountains of data to arrive at a simple conculsion, such as tank A over B. I quick question of mine that pops up is, when was the guage last calibrated, were multiple guages used in the test, who ran the test, were they current with industry stanrdards, etc....?

To be perfectlty honest, I believe, that screw ins are so simliar in desgin that they all flow about the same, lp or hp. I think it really comes down to the quality of the materials used and thier construction. I think that is why you see some people praising one tank while that same tank, to another, is a complete piece of crap.

ATM:
do yourself a favor and save up for a nice adjustible. If you can find a flatline grab it up. My personal favorite is a Dynaflow. You can get them for about 350, new.

If they had only tested the Crossfire independently, then I would ask the same questions, but they reviewed at least 8-10 tanks in that article. So let's assume the calibration is off. Why would the gauge bias the crossfire tank? I admit, there are two critical assumptions here: that they are only using one digital pressure gauge for all the tanks and that all the testing is done within a reasonable short time frame. I think these are reasonable assumptions considering how expensive the equipment is, and also the fact that it would make no sense for them to have more than one, or to test them over a period of several months.

So under those assumptions, whatever errors in calibration there might be would effect ALL tanks, not just the crossfire.

And as far as articles being poorly written, it doesn't matter. It's the raw data on the graphs that shows the difference. Funny you should mention that, though, because the article concluded as saying the Evil Scion was the winner because of looks and adjustability vs. pure performance and price.

[abunkerer]

mainstream the devil? I own a throttle and am supporting PMI two of the most mainstream paintball products out there. I was saying that since I've owned a $$$ Throttle all I've had was problems and all I've heard since was that they are poor performers (from people who should know) and because I got burned I have done some tests on presets and have found that PMI tanks are very fast rechargers, (i was surprised) I currently use a worrgas preset(very fast). I also have tried centerflags hyperflows and they seem to keep up with an LXemag also.

[GT]

Originally posted by No sKiLLz

I think these are reasonable assumptions considering how expensive the equipment is, and also the fact that it would make no sense for them to have more than one, or to test them over a period of several months.


True, since we are looking for the difference, however there are a multitude of other questions I had off the cuff.

Expense or not the tech running this test has to have some kind of industry back ground or cert... Also where are the stats? if the rare data was provided lets see some stats to determine if there is a signifigant difference bewteen tanks.

It doesnt really matter most paintballers just want to know if it is a more "1337" tank or something like that..

[Duke of Lawnchair]

If you had said they were PMI instead of Crossfire tanks I would believe it.

No sKiLLz,

Funny that you should mention that as Martin's PMI PE 68/4500 bottle is the only preset that I've run into that HASN'T choked on a v4.0 Emag.

There was another board member, jtoothman25 I believe. He's experiencing the same problem with the same bottle setup as my previous Crossfire bottle. In fact, I believe that he is BlackVCG's teammate as they are both from Oregon.

In mechanical mode, the bottle ran like clockwork and I absolutely loved it. However, it just couldn't keep up with the faster rates of fire that is possible with the newer software. Since I shoot in e-mode and hardly ever use my mechanical 'mag I decided to sell off my extra equipment.

I just sold my Crossfire to another board member who is shooting an X-valved mechanical mag and he is pleased with it's performance.

Jim

[BagelBoy2004]

I would get a used AGD Flatline or for about $240 I would highly recommend the Nitro Duck X-Stream. It's made of Carbon Fiber (lightest tank on the market) and is a fully adjustable (100-900) psi screw in tank. This means you don't need a cradle for it.

[atm743]

well i jest bought a crossfire 70 4500 stubby thanks for all of the help

[No sKiLLz]

Originally posted by Duke of Lawnchair


No sKiLLz,

Funny that you should mention that as Martin's PMI PE 68/4500 bottle is the only preset that I've run into that HASN'T choked on a v4.0 Emag.

There was another board member, jtoothman25 I believe. He's experiencing the same problem with the same bottle setup as my previous Crossfire bottle. In fact, I believe that he is BlackVCG's teammate as they are both from Oregon.

In mechanical mode, the bottle ran like clockwork and I absolutely loved it. However, it just couldn't keep up with the faster rates of fire that is possible with the newer software. Since I shoot in e-mode and hardly ever use my mechanical 'mag I decided to sell off my extra equipment.

I just sold my Crossfire to another board member who is shooting an X-valved mechanical mag and he is pleased with it's performance.

Jim

What makes the mag so special? I have people in this forum trying to argue with me about the recharge rate on the Crossfire reg, quoting personal experience instead of data, when I get to stare at a graph that tells me what I want to know. But rather than accepting lab data over personal experience, the claim is on this ONE gun, the mag, these crossfires don't work and should not be recommended for purchase. Help me understand this.

I can set my dwell to 24 and debounce to 1 on my NYX and rip an ungodly stream with no drop off. That's my personal experience with Crossfire. I had a PMI PE tank before, and as soon as they repaired the reg and sent it back to me I sold it. That's my personal experience with PMI. It doesn't mean crap. Measured data, even if under slightly questionable circumstances (which is their belief and not mine), I feel to be a much more reliable source of information.

[sneakyhacker420]

i've always been partial to my PMI tanks

good flow, no drop-off... and if your store has a certified PMI tech, they can take off the top half of the reg, and adjust the output pressure of it :D

[AcemanPB]

I have a Crossfire 68/4500 and a PMI 45/4500, both HP tanks. Neither of the two tanks gave me shootdown problems on my iR3. I usually shoot around 15-16 (as verified by sound graph) and never get shootdown until the tank is low. This is probably because of the iR3's lower operating pressure. I usually use the Crossfire on my mag with no problems, but it is mech mag not and E-mag.

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Originally posted by No sKiLLz


What makes the mag so special? I have people in this forum trying to argue with me about the recharge rate on the Crossfire reg, quoting personal experience instead of data, when I get to stare at a graph that tells me what I want to know. But rather than accepting lab data over personal experience, the claim is on this ONE gun, the mag, these crossfires don't work and should not be recommended for purchase. Help me understand this.

I can set my dwell to 24 and debounce to 1 on my NYX and rip an ungodly stream with no drop off. That's my personal experience with Crossfire. I had a PMI PE tank before, and as soon as they repaired the reg and sent it back to me I sold it. That's my personal experience with PMI. It doesn't mean crap. Measured data, even if under slightly questionable circumstances (which is their belief and not mine), I feel to be a much more reliable source of information.

Wasn't arguing with you on that one NOR was I arguing with you about recharge rates as I have not seen ANY sources whatsoever in regards to mfg-to-mfg or bottle-to-bottle data. Having this data is good, but as to whether people are claiming that the tests are skewed, well that is shooting from the hip. IF there was a solid, unwavering test plan and if test instrumentation remained the same, then I'd be hard pressed to say that the data is kosher. On the other hand, if the test circumstances were questionable, then the data is questionable. Instead I expressed my personal experiences. However, a fact is a fact. That "fact" just so happens to be that my Emag choked with MY Crossfire but not with MARTIN's PMI PE. That in itself can be summed up as "field data." Your experiences prove otherwise.

I have a lot of fluid mechanic folks out here @ work. It would be interesting if I could get them to run a few tests. Pending if I can get a good sample base of PMI PEs and Crossfire "reds".

Like I mentioned before, I do not have the data that you have at the ready. Out of curiosity, did they mention mean output pressure? It could just so happen that MY emag choked because the output was not as high as advertised. I say this as my emag exhibits the same characteristics when I drop the output pressure below ~850psi.

Unfortunately, most "internet" experiences are isolated cases and like you said "...doesn't mean crap." What most people do, like myself either "run what you brung" or find something that works.

Jim

[No sKiLLz]

Mean output pressure could be the problem. It says the measured output pressure prior to shot for the tested tank is 770. That being the case, the mag needs retuning before use with a crossfire.

The PE tank was tested at 840, and had the same numbers as the crossfire (14% drop in pressure, 10ms recovery time) however "the pressure oscillates and full recovery isn't achieved for another 20 ms".

The DYE Throttle has a 30% pressure drop and 173ms recovery time. That's a FAR cry from 10ms.

The rapid fire graph is the best one, because it shows the crossfire against a throttle on both an Eclipse cocker and DM4. On both, the rapid fire graphs, 25 cycles per second, the Throttle graph comes to sharp points, where the crossfire has plateaus. What this means is the Throttle reg is still rebounding when the next shot is fired while the crossfire recovers quickly enough to have down time before the next cycle.

I will see if I can scan it and have it hosted and the post a link.

[Duke of Lawnchair]

The DYE Throttle has a 30% pressure drop and 173ms recovery time. That's a FAR cry from 10ms.

OUCH!!!

Please do scan the data. If you can't host it up here, email me a copy as I would like to have it.

IF in fact the tested bottle had an output of ~770psi then that might have been suspect in my bottle as well.

Jim

[No sKiLLz]

Originally posted by Duke of Lawnchair


OUCH!!!

Please do scan the data. If you can't host it up here, email me a copy as I would like to have it.

IF in fact the tested bottle had an output of ~770psi then that might have been suspect in my bottle as well.

Jim

It makes sense what you and Martin experienced, considering the PE started at 840, and mags love more pressure. I just have to hook up my scanner, but I will have to get to it tomorrow.

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Originally posted by No sKiLLz


It makes sense what you and Martin experienced, considering the PE started at 840, and mags love more pressure. I just have to hook up my scanner, but I will have to get to it tomorrow.

Groovy.

Thanks a lot amigo.

Jim

[abunkerer]

anyone know if there's any way to get the output pressure of a preset crossfire increased?
Ive heard that it is possible, but only on certain regs.

[No sKiLLz]

Originally posted by abunkerer
anyone know if there's any way to get the output pressure of a preset crossfire increased?
Ive heard that it is possible, but only on certain regs.

Yeah. Take the spring out.

J/K!!! DON'T DO THAT!!!

[dj89]

take off the reg and buy a flat ilne lol:D :confused:

[abunkerer]

^ ha, I have enough tanks...don't need anyomre. but If I could increase the output on my crossfire (or have someone do it for me) I'd be happy. although I might get an armageddon, those seem nice since flatlines are being d/c'd