Rumor Here (sorta) About Wholesale From PaintballGear.com??

[mjs1217]

My friend has a neighbor who was talking to us for a little while the last time I was over there. According to him, and he wasn't very descriptive, he is almost done setting up an account with paintballgear.com. He says that he is buying things from them at wholesale price, or maybe just slightly over wholesale, and then selling them to kids in his neighborhood/surrounding neighborhoods for no profit to him. He's told this to about 10 people by now, but I heard it first about a month ago, and still no word from him.

The no-profit part makes sense, because this guy is about 60 and has 4 kids, all about 9-15, who play paintball but didn't have anyone to play with who isn't a complete moron (see my other thread on the paintball community here). So, my guess would be that the guy is doing this for his kids, and to expand the community here.

Oh, also, I believe him because he has multiple millions of dollars, and the biggest house in that neighborhood (he owns a contracting company that did the work on several neighborhoods around here).

So, the question that coems to mind is:
Does PaintballGear.com sell guns, masks, hoppers, tanks, and paintballs wholesale?


Thanks,
-mjs

[WARPED1]

I'm not sure, but most likely. We use NPS.

[Zumina]

It wouldn't surprise me. They're rather large distributor, much like I&I who sells at just above wholesale.

[Skywalker]

thye do sell wholesale, but they told me that you have to have a business license in order to get the wholesale prices.

[Spartan X]

Yahy you can't just be the adverage Joe and get wholesale. I do not think the manufactores would be to happy if he expanded his thing to fare over his frineds, causse they make MAP prices for a reason.

[845]

Yeah pbgear does sell wholesale.

[Lakeview Bulldog]

Getting a wholesale liscense is not that hard. All you have to do is go and pay a $10 or $15 fee and you have your wholesale liscense. Im pretty sure most county municipal building can help you out with the process.

[demonguy8]

I work there...we do have wholesale, but if I remember right we stopped offering wholesale accounts like a year ago...

[Skoad]

well one thing is for sure. If you look at the NPS dealer catalog and pbgear prices, Pbgear beats probably 60-75% of nps prices on most gear. I should probably say beats or matches; but there were drastic differences in prices on many things, with pbgear being lower.

[Butterfingers]

I used to have access to a wholesale acount with PBGear... They pretty much sell everything you see on the retail site.

[cphilip]

Uh.... kids... getting a business license is easy.... but keepin it up is a BUNCH of work. There is Property Taxes on the residence or place of business used as a business. A that is at a much higher rate or percentage used to calculate that. Even if its out of your home! And there is monthly reports to the State of income to file or they estimate! And they estimate HIGH! Then you gotta go straighten that out. And then there is annual percentage used tax report to file to get that high estimate down to what it realy was. And thats even if no sales are made. And then there is calculating personaly income on any sales. Even if you sell for cost you gotta prove it. And you might be liable for sales tax even at that!

It's very easy to get one... another thing to keep up with it. One slip and they all over you! Then its twice as hard to get rid of it. You really should consider all the effort before you even think about it. Its a little like Marrage. Easy to get in and very difficult and expensive to get out. It cost me over 500 bucks a year to keep one. And I rarely make that much in profit! Its almost not worth it for a small business to do it. Think about it.

[GTakacs]

Originally posted by Spartan X
Yahy you can't just be the adverage Joe and get wholesale. I do not think the manufactores would be to happy if he expanded his thing to fare over his frineds, causse they make MAP prices for a reason.

MAP is just one step shy of price fixing. And if I live in the same US that you do, it is illegal. Price fixing, that is.

I have done R/C and they have the same MAP BS that paintball has. I was also involved with car stereos, same story.

The whole MAP is there so companies can't "whore out" the product for pennies, shutting down local pro-shops who can't keep up with the on-line competition.

I am all for having a local shop, but given that most local shops don't provide any kind of service over what you can get on-line (the local stores' return policy is actually a lot worse than most on-line stores', no cash refunds what-so-ever, and they sell stuff over MSRP) I say we're living in a capitalist market driven world, so let's see how the survival of the fittest works out.

Local shops should really provide a service on top of a product, and try to get the competitive edge that way, not by whining to distributors about on-line companies with small overhead undercutting them. The MAP is a crutch for these crappy pro-shpos so they can keep maikng a living while the consumer is paying a higher price and on-line stores are making a killing.

I think MAP is bad, it's the customer who gets the shaft at the end. The FTC should look at MAP a lot closer, when distributors stop selling to you because you are selling it below MAP, it's clearly price fixing.

And I'm off the soapbox.

[Richter_7]

Originally posted by GTakacs
Local shops should really provide a service on top of a product, and try to get the competitive edge that way, not by whining to distributors about on-line companies with small overhead undercutting them. The MAP is a crutch for these crappy pro-shpos so they can keep maikng a living while the consumer is paying a higher price and on-line stores are making a killing.

I think MAP is bad, it's the customer who gets the shaft at the end. The FTC should look at MAP a lot closer, when distributors stop selling to you because you are selling it below MAP, it's clearly price fixing.

Have you ever worked for a paintball store? Or just have experience in dealing with them? I know at our store we thank our customers for buying MSRP by rewarding them with service warranties and future cash back incentives based on amount purchased over time. Obviously our pricing can't compete with places like gear, HR expenses prevent that.

The other issue is that many dealers have "tiers." Sometimes based on initial order, sometimes based on orders over a time. A store that stocks $75,000 worth of DYE products is obviously going to get a better price on say... masks than a store that sells $15,000 worth of DYE products. Some of these smaller stores make anywhere from 14 to 28% on products, and 14% is not much based on the product.

[GTakacs]

Originally posted by Richter_7
Have you ever worked for a paintball store? Or just have experience in dealing with them? I know at our store we thank our customers for buying MSRP by rewarding them with service warranties and future cash back incentives based on amount purchased over time. Obviously our pricing can't compete with places like gear, HR expenses prevent that.


Lucky for me I don't work in the retail industry. However I have seen many hobby shops go belly up because they couldn't compete with the on-line stores. I have also seen some that are flourishing despite the higher price they charge. This is due to the extra service they provide to people, hence they are rewarded by return customers.

I can say that paintball stores are not much different than R/C shops. And I can also say that the local one I've been to charges $5 over MSRP on a Dye C4 Jersey and they have a sign which clearly staes "no refunds on any purchase what-so-ever!". They also charge $55 for Midnight and their cheapest "rec quality" paint is $45, which is also ridiculous. I am not going to buy much at this store for sure.

I completely see how on-line high volume sellers are "ruining" the competition and this is why local stores have to try harder to earn people's business.



The other issue is that many dealers have "tiers."

Sometimes based on initial order, sometimes based on orders over a time. A store that stocks $75,000 worth of DYE products is obviously going to get a better price on say... masks than a store that sells $15,000 worth of DYE products. Some of these smaller stores make anywhere from 14 to 28% on products, and 14% is not much based on the product.

I also understand that there are instances when a local store can't even buy the product from a distributor for less than what an on-line retailer is selling it for to the masses. And even if the local store were to sell it for the exact same price as an on-line store, add on the 8.25% sales tax, and a $1,300 marker costs $107.25 more locally than on-line. And that is government profit. For most people it is hard to justify that $100 especially that they know it goes to Uncle Sam.

I am not ignorant of all these facts, however I do have higher expectations when I go to a local store and I want them to work harder to earn my business. With on-line communities and support it is less and less important to have a brick and mortar outlet for my needs. When I go in a store and I know more about a particular product than the 16 year old behind the counter, I will not buy anything there. And it is so easy to get educated about products on-line whether it's a paintball marker or a digital camera.

As for the MAP, don't you find it hyppocritical of the distributors and manufacturers to fix retail prices by MAP, yet discount products for high volume resellers? They are rewarding their high volume customers, yet they fix the price so the little guy can make a living too, while the "big guys" make a killing and the customer is getting ripped. Maybe paintball stores should whine a little more about the tier pricing and less about enforcing the MAP.

Again, I am not working in retail, none of my family members do, so luckily for me, I can only benefit from buying on-line. My original post was to address the misconception about MAP by the original poster (Spartan X) who thought it was a good thing and it protects everyone.

MAP is evil any way you look at it. MAP is also there so on-line retailers can hide the fact that they are getting stuff for less than some low volume local pro-shop. How would that local shop feel if they would see that pbgear was selling markers for less than what they can get it for? That would open up the can of worms and the distributors' would be caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

At any rate, all this just discusts me and I am getting sicks just writing about it! All these manufacturers are making a killing on products made and assembled in the orient for $2, they sell it for $40 then the retailer sells it for $50 to the customer.

God, I'm happy I don't work in retail!

[shartley]

Originally posted by cphilip
Uh.... kids... getting a business license is easy.... but keepin it up is a BUNCH of work. There is Property Taxes on the residence or place of business used as a business. A that is at a much higher rate or percentage used to calculate that. Even if its out of your home! And there is monthly reports to the State of income to file or they estimate! And they estimate HIGH! Then you gotta go straighten that out. And then there is annual percentage used tax report to file to get that high estimate down to what it realy was. And thats even if no sales are made. And then there is calculating personaly income on any sales. Even if you sell for cost you gotta prove it. And you might be liable for sales tax even at that!

It's very easy to get one... another thing to keep up with it. One slip and they all over you! Then its twice as hard to get rid of it. You really should consider all the effort before you even think about it. Its a little like Marrage. Easy to get in and very difficult and expensive to get out. It cost me over 500 bucks a year to keep one. And I rarely make that much in profit! Its almost not worth it for a small business to do it. Think about it.
This is not true for all states, people need to check with THEIR state to see what is required. Some states are not even close to that. And then some states have different requirements depending on the business type. Zoning is also an issue (I live in a Business/Residential Zoned area… best of both worlds!).

ADDED: Heck, thinking about it since tax season is so fresh in my mind…. the expenses of actually running my business far outweighed any filing fees I had to pay. Merchant’s Account, Business Bank Account, Advertising, Supplies (Office and Product), Equipment Costs (new and maintenance), etc. But I can honestly say that I have only taken a technical loss on either of my businesses once.

And the standard costs of running my business is actually more of a worry when things get tight than any filing fees.

BUT… with all that said, it all depends on what type of business is being run, what services, what level of business (Sole Proprietorship, Corporation, Partnership, Limited Liability, etc.), and what level of business is required by law FOR the type of business being run.

And like I said, folks need to check with their actual State to see what is required. Some states are more small business friendly than others.

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by shartley

This is not true for all states, people need to check with THEIR state to see what is required. Some states are not even close to that. And then some states have different requirements depending on the business type. Zoning is also an issue (I live in a Business/Residential Zoned area… best of both worlds!).

ADDED: Heck, thinking about it since tax season is so fresh in my mind…. the expenses of actually running my business far outweighed any filing fees I had to pay. Merchant’s Account, Business Bank Account, Advertising, Supplies (Office and Product), Equipment Costs (new and maintenance), etc. But I can honestly say that I have only taken a technical loss on either of my businesses once.

And the standard costs of running my business is actually more of a worry when things get tight than any filing fees.

BUT… with all that said, it all depends on what type of business is being run, what services, what level of business (Sole Proprietorship, Corporation, Partnership, Limited Liability, etc.), and what level of business is required by law FOR the type of business being run.

And like I said, folks need to check with their actual State to see what is required. Some states are more small business friendly than others.

Pretty true here in Florida as well.

Most things work out to your benefit here,especially being a right to work state(no organized labor boards/unions),the state is decently set up for private business ownership.Expenses generally are in your favor and the paper work isn't to bad.Besides them repealling the workers comp exemption last year(now you must go LLC or INC)it's a pretty good deal overall.

[cphilip]

Ah true... true... South Carolina is a lousy place to do business over the internet. I often for get that. Its about the most unfriendly place in the country I am told.` They collect sales tax on everything. Both purchase price and sales.

Not only that but they will assess you 25% of your residence at 6% if you do any business out of it at all. Resulting in a increase for that 25% of your property of 3%.

Now taxes are not high here but still that results in a net cost of almost 500 bucks you have to make right off the bat! So then with the other 5% you have to tack on for sales taxes your now competing with all those states that do not collect taxes on things sold out of state... and your costs are 7% or so higher than them.

Not fun. I think there are some Federal based lawsuits going to alieviate this here as well as some local efforts. But its not a very good climate here right now.

Funny thing is I know people that conduct these business activities here out of rented houses using business licenses from other states! They pay nothing! :(

[shartley]

Cphilip,
That really sucks. NH is a breeze and VERY small business friendly. And we have NO sales tax.

The property tax thing is also not a nice thing. But I will point out that in NH our property taxes are high as it is, so the state gets “theirs” no matter what you do on your property. The “locals” tend to be more worried about gleaming off of business than the State or Feds here.

And some states don’t even require a “business license” to operate a business. It depends on the type of business category you run your business under. Again, some states are just better for small business than others. I am VERY glad I live in a State that IS.

I am not familiar with SC’s laws covering business, but how would Incorporating in another state work for you? I know many businesses who Incorporate in Maryland (and other INC friendly States) and run in another.

[bryceeden]

Originally posted by GTakacs


As for the MAP, don't you find it hyppocritical of the distributors and manufacturers to fix retail prices by MAP, yet discount products for high volume resellers? They are rewarding their high volume customers, yet they fix the price so the little guy can make a living too, while the "big guys" make a killing and the customer is getting ripped. Maybe paintball stores should whine a little more about the tier pricing and less about enforcing the MAP.

Again, I am not working in retail, none of my family members do, so luckily for me, I can only benefit from buying on-line. My original post was to address the misconception about MAP by the original poster (Spartan X) who thought it was a good thing and it protects everyone.

MAP is evil any way you look at it. MAP is also there so on-line retailers can hide the fact that they are getting stuff for less than some low volume local pro-shop. How would that local shop feel if they would see that pbgear was selling markers for less than what they can get it for? That would open up the can of worms and the distributors' would be caught with their hand in the cookie jar.



Get use to it because more and more companies are doing it every day. As a proshop owner(who is in a multi store partnership so we get the loest prices on orders and will price match the net as long as it isn't a close out) I like MAP befor Tippmann began using a MAP the 98custom even with the huge order discount and everything profited about $2.50 per unit. That isn't enough on anyones part, and most stores were paying more wholesale than the net was selling them for. Yes, I agree most proshops sound like they want to rip people off, and I don't know why they charge so much because they don't have to(even in ordering huge quantitys you save maybe $10 if that per unit on high end gear) But I think soon you will see a MAP on most everything in the industry(How ever just because there is a MAP doesn't mean everything will sell that low) I think the Maps will help inprove the quality of local proshops and internet companies alike, yes it costs alittle more but it will increase quality of service in most places.

[GT]

Dam good posts guys! (we really need a system to award points to posters or thier posts to give them 'Ecrdit' instead of post counts.)


Maybe TK can roll into this thread; However I have a feeling, probally not AGD's case, that the manfacture is the one that makes the money since the profit margin is so thin for dealers.....

Allow me to expand on the consumer side: It was not until this year that I spent a dime, A SINGLE DIME at a local shop, besides paint and air. I have been to more than a few shops and thier incompetnece, rather than thier prices, is what kept me from buying. It was not until this year I meet Brad and the pbmax crew that I decided to buy some stuff local. Mind you I have been playing paintball for about 4 years now and ALL of my purchases take place online.


mjs1217:
Honestly I dint think you will find that big a discount with a dealers liscence. I looked at opening an account with AGD as well as NPS. I chatted with a few dealers on AO and decided that it just wasnt worth it, besides if you know who to go through you as a consumer can dam near get dealer pricing ;) .

jb

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by gtrsi

Honestly I dint think you will find that big a discount with a dealers liscence. I looked at opening an account with AGD as well as NPS. I chatted with a few dealers on AO and decided that it just wasnt worth it, besides if you know who to go through you as a consumer can dam near get dealer pricing ;) .

jb

I'd just like to clarify that a little bit.

There's a big difference between being a "Dealer" and being a business able buy wholesale.

Being a business will typically allow you to buy wholesale from any 'wholesaler' provided you qualify for an account from them(credit,references,etc.)In some cases you don't even need to be an actual business for that to be the case.

To be a "dealer" is usually far more involved depending on the manufacturer you wish to 'deal'.Many will require you to go to contract stipulating 'X' amount of product to be purchased in advance and 'X' amount to be re-ordered over a given time frame.The discounts and sales incentives will also vary based on these requirments and have a direct connection to the actual cost per unit of any item.This why you often see product advertised and sold at what seems to be under wholesale cost.All of these will vary greatly depending on the company,rights of exclusivity and overall demand.

For instance,when I was in the electronics business,we were direct dealers for many major manufacturers,Pioneer,Yamaha,Kenwood,Paradigm,Sony ,just to name a few.Many of those have very high purchase and stock requirements,in the line of 20K-50K up front and 25K+ each quarter.But the incentives and total discounts make it well worth the outlay assuming you can move the merchandise,and can afford the intial buy in.

Of Course,due to the MUCH smaller market share of paintball,dealer requirements are typically no where near that demending.

Just a little FYI.
;)

[cphilip]

Originally posted by shartley
Cphilip,
That really sucks. NH is a breeze and VERY small business friendly. And we have NO sales tax.

The property tax thing is also not a nice thing. But I will point out that in NH our property taxes are high as it is, so the state gets “theirs” no matter what you do on your property. The “locals” tend to be more worried about gleaming off of business than the State or Feds here.

And some states don’t even require a “business license” to operate a business. It depends on the type of business category you run your business under. Again, some states are just better for small business than others. I am VERY glad I live in a State that IS.

I am not familiar with SC’s laws covering business, but how would Incorporating in another state work for you? I know many businesses who Incorporate in Maryland (and other INC friendly States) and run in another.

I suspect that incorporating in another state might be an option but I need to look into it some more. Its possible they want sales tax from anyone "Conducting" business in the state. The only way I could see to avoid that is to not only incorporate in another state but to never recieve anything within the state for shipment out. Direct drop ship everything. Which make a small personalized business difficult because you want it to pass through your hands to do the little things. Like change over parts and customize it. And inspect it. So thats where I am really in that sort of personal treatment sort of customer service that costs me more money to do. I don't need to tell you that if I have to tack 7% on to something that I am going to not be competitive at all.

[shartley]

Originally posted by cphilip


I suspect that incorporating in another state might be an option but I need to look into it some more. Its possible they want sales tax from anyone "Conducting" business in the state. The only way I could see to avoid that is to not only incorporate in another state but to never recieve anything within the state for shipment out. Direct drop ship everything. Which make a small personalized business difficult because you want it to pass through your hands to do the little things. Like change over parts and customize it. And inspect it. So thats where I am really in that sort of personal treatment sort of customer service that costs me more money to do. I don't need to tell you that if I have to tack 7% on to something that I am going to not be competitive at all.
That is all true… and I fully understand. Looks like you are caught between a rock and a hard spot on this issue.

You may actually end up about the same no matter which way you do it.