45 vs Y/Z angle vs Vert frames

[Cryer]

So we have a place to talk about it without cluttering Nicads thread...

[trains are bad]

It's entirely prference. Most people hate my y. It depends on how you shoot, what you like.

[Cryer]

While we're at it, hell lets drag drops vs rails into this...:p


I want a vert w/ rail. Ultimate shooting platform with a 88 stubby tank. Lets you get your arm straighter, allowing your tendons/muscles/whatever easier movement, as well get the frame perpindicular to the motion of your trigger pull.

[yaddatrance]

Woohoo! :D

My personal preferences:

1st: Vertical
2nd: Y-frame

Logical order from a marketting/demand sense:

1st: 45 frame
2nd: Vertical

Argument from DW hAir thread... Re: "iT'S ERGONIMICALLY
better working trigger frame. NOt just a preference, it's a fact."

All existing trigger frames are design compromises.
It is not a fact that the Y-frame is the most ergonomic frame ever.

Point #1: A Y-frame is really irritating to use while lying
on your belly or side behind a snake.

Point #2: The 45 frame has been designed to use your
natural pointing skills. It is possible to aim accurately
with your eyes closed. This feat is near impossible with
the Y-frame. The Y requires sighting down the barrel.

That said, I owned a Y and was not unhappy with it.
I traded to a vertical frame because it allowed me to
comfortably play in more positions, thus achieving a
good compromise for my playing tastes.

[added: Drop vs. rail, I prefer a drop, but they all
look wierd on the Y and vertical frames. I went with
rails for those]

[RenagadeOfFunk]

With an e-mag and x-mag you really dont have a choice...

...45 all the way...
...why do you think the military and others use 45 grips:p :rolleyes: :cool:

[Cryer]

My heirarchy of preferances:

1- vert
2- 45
3- Y
4- Z


45's are designed for pistols, and guns where you have your arm completely extended. Thats the ergonomics of it. If you use a rail, its easier to use a 45, however, if you prefer drops, try and get at least a vert...

I think if I had a Y grip, I might actually use a drop...:eek:

[yaddatrance]

Originally posted by Cryer
I think if I had a Y grip, I might actually use a drop...:eek:

Heh, that's how I ran my first game with the Y and
I nearly wrenched a muscle with it... All the weight
was on the wrist to keep it holding the gun facing
forward (Using a SS RT Pro with Halo B and a medium drop,
ugh!) Talk about heavy... my muscles twinge just thinking
about it...

[JT2002]

is the bagelmaster here yet? ;) :D

[Cryer]

Yeah, on second thought, I wouldnt use a drop... If I had a neg-angle frame (y/z) I'd use one of those funky backwards angled drop thingies...

[Cryer]

Originally posted by JT2002
is the bagelmaster here yet? ;) :D

lol, nah, hes still argueing with himself in nicads thread...:p

[BagelBoy2004]

Originally posted by Cryer


lol, nah, hes still argueing with himself in nicads thread...:p

is there a problem???

[BagelBoy2004]

Originally posted by yaddatrance
Woohoo! :D

Point #2: The 45 frame has been designed to use your
natural pointing skills. It is possible to aim accurately
with your eyes closed. This feat is near impossible with
the Y-frame. The Y requires sighting down the barrel.



no one "aims a paint marker". No one sights down the barrel. You just watch where the paint goes. There are no "snipers" in paintball. Why would you try to "aim".

[BagelBoy2004]

Originally posted by RenagadeOfFunkRTPcf
With an e-mag and x-mag you really dont have a choice...

...45 all the way...
...why do you think the military and others use 45 grips:p :rolleyes: :cool:

They use 45 grips because they have HANDGUNS and RIFLES not paintball guns. Genious........

[Cryer]

Originally posted by BagelBoy2004


is there a problem???

Well, yeah: Nicad wanted this discussion out of his thread.

why do you always sound so demeaning? ...insulting and all?


EDIT-Oh, and you didnt spell genius right, Genius.

[yaddatrance]

Originally posted by BagelBoy2004


They use 45 grips because they have HANDGUNS and RIFLES not paintball guns. Genious........

You still haven't addressed my points... You'll also find
them on SMGs like the MP5 which is used in a very similar
situations to paintball...

They all use 45 grips because they like to hit what
they shoot at and the 45 grip is a very good instinctive
shape for that purpose.

It's all preference and design choices...

BTW Re: Angel copying the Y frame...

If you examine the grip frame of a real Uzi, you'd
note that they copied it very accurately, the dips
and cut of the vertical frame is almost a clone.

http://images.google.com/images?q=uzi&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en

[yaddatrance]

Originally posted by BagelBoy2004


no one "aims a paint marker". No one sights down the barrel. You just watch where the paint goes. There are no "snipers" in paintball. Why would you try to "aim".

Are you serious? :confused:

Uhm, because if you couldn't aim at all paintball would be
the dumbest game on the planet... When you shoot at
a target, you're using the parallax of the barrel to
sight down it...

[Cryer]

Originally posted by yaddatrance
...BTW Re: Angel copying the Y frame...

If you examine the grip frame of a real Uzi, you'd
note that they copied it very accurately, the dips
and cut of the vertical frame is almost a clone.

http://images.google.com/images?q=uzi&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en


http://www.bimmini.com/jpgs/uzi.jpg http://www.paintballbliss.com/images/angels/flyir3.jpg


yes.

[Cryer]

I think, ideally, I'd like to have something between a vert and 45 frame...

[RenagadeOfFunk]

I dub BagelBoy2004 a noob for saying...

"no one "aims a paint marker". No one sights down the barrel. You just watch where the paint goes. There are no "snipers" in paintball. Why would you try to "aim". "

you should go tell Tyger that...
...you would be shocked that markers are actually AIMED!

[the larch]

Well, Actually, I think bagelboy meant that you don't aim down the top of the gun as you do in most real firearm applications.
Also, most real firearms are not intended to shoot from a tucked position.
Comparing real firearms with paintball markers just isn't a good idea. They are used differently, shot differently, and balanced much differently. Remember, recoil is not an issue with paintball marker.


Do a test: hold a stick vertically in your fist and try to draw your hand back to your face without your trigger finger turning in towards your body....it gets more and more uncomfortable the closer your hand gets to your face. The stick wants to angle back towards your head.
In most "real gun" situations your hand never gets close to your head and a 45 grip is great. In paintball, with a dropforward, your hand can end up 3 inches from your face as you site down the side of the marker.
In this case, a vertical, or Y grip is QUITE practical. I personally LOVE my vertical grip.

[JT2002]

Ok thats enough. And late warning on your cursing too - no flamming - cphilip

[Barfly]

I would like a z-grip for my b2k3, because I like to hold the grip with my left hand and walk with my right. The angle makes it really comfortable for my right hand to walk with, when I tilt the gun like a z-grip.

[BagelBoy2004]

Originally posted by JT2002
this is for you bagelboy....
"Main Entry: 1aim
Pronunciation: 'Am
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French aesmer & esmer; Middle French aesmer, from Old French, from a- (from Latin ad-) + esmer to estimate, from Latin aestimare
intransitive senses
1 : to direct a course; specifically : to point a weapon at an object
2 : ASPIRE, INTEND <aims to reform the government>
transitive senses
1 obsolete : GUESS, CONJECTURE
2 a : POINT b : to direct to or toward a specified object or goal <a program aimed at reducing pollution> "

so, your saying merriam-webster is wrong? i deff agree, theres no way in he!! we paintball players point our markers (defined in the above term, although most of us dont call them this, weapon) at an object/ direct them toward a specified object. never in my life have i EVER witnessed any of the hundreds of thousands of paintball players do this even once. man, thank goodness the
bagelb!tch is here!!!! idk what we'd do without him. ;) ;) :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes: :cool: :p :D :D

Sit on my thumb and rotate.

[BagelBoy2004]

Originally posted by the larch
Well, Actually, I think bagelboy meant that you don't aim down the top of the gun as you do in most real firearm applications.
Also, most real firearms are not intended to shoot from a tucked position.
Comparing real firearms with paintball markers just isn't a good idea. They are used differently, shot differently, and balanced much differently. Remember, recoil is not an issue with paintball marker.


Do a test: hold a stick vertically in your fist and try to draw your hand back to your face without your trigger finger turning in towards your body....it gets more and more uncomfortable the closer your hand gets to your face. The stick wants to angle back towards your head.
In most "real gun" situations your hand never gets close to your head and a 45 grip is great. In paintball, with a dropforward, your hand can end up 3 inches from your face as you site down the side of the marker.
In this case, a vertical, or Y grip is QUITE practical. I personally LOVE my vertical grip.

Exactly. You people act like you are supposed to close your left eye and sight down the barrel like you are hunting deer.

[JT2002]

lmao, bagelmasters only pissed cuz he just got pwned by miscue in the other thread! ;) :rolleyes: :cool: :p :p ;) :D :D :D

[BagelBoy2004]

Originally posted by JT2002
lmao, bagelmasters only pissed cuz he just got pwned by miscue in the other thread! ;) :rolleyes: :cool: :p :p ;) :D :D :D

Pwned?????? WTF is that supposed to mean? Learn how to spell.

[yaddatrance]

Originally posted by BagelBoy2004


Exactly. You people act like you are supposed to close your left eye and sight down the barrel like you are hunting deer.

Well technically, you're never supposed to close an eye
even when doing that... You'll find it harder to track
moving targets and it's hard to guage distance. Using
both eyes will noticably increase accuracy. ;)

Oh, One last thought on this matter, even from a tuck,
I find it hard on the wrists but the 45 frame still
retains the "finger pointing" natural position which
would let me do accurate "snap" shots. When coming out for
those, I do a volley of two or three shots but I noticed
that if they're going to hit, the first shot is usually
the one to do it.

I don't try more than three because I'm diving back under
cover by then and I've bunkered my own self before with
my last round bouncing back off my cover. :eek:

[Cryer]

Bagel, I think you're taking this a little too personal. Its a discussion on other people's preferences and youre getting all hostile and telling people to set on your thumb and stuff... thats not cool. You should tone it down a bit.

[BagelBoy2004]

Originally posted by JT2002
this is for you bagelboy....
"Main Entry: 1aim
Pronunciation: 'Am
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French aesmer & esmer; Middle French aesmer, from Old French, from a- (from Latin ad-) + esmer to estimate, from Latin aestimare
intransitive senses
1 : to direct a course; specifically : to point a weapon at an object
2 : ASPIRE, INTEND <aims to reform the government>
transitive senses
1 obsolete : GUESS, CONJECTURE
2 a : POINT b : to direct to or toward a specified object or goal <a program aimed at reducing pollution> "

so, your saying merriam-webster is wrong? i deff agree, theres no way in he!! we paintball players point our markers (defined in the above term, although most of us dont call them this, weapon) at an object/ direct them toward a specified object. never in my life have i EVER witnessed any of the hundreds of thousands of paintball players do this even once. man, thank goodness the
bagelb!tch is here!!!! idk what we'd do without him. ;) ;) :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes: :cool: :p :D :D

Cryer, then what is this ********* supposed to mean????

[Cryer]

Originally posted by BagelBoy2004


Cryer, then what is this [expletive removed] supposed to mean????

first off, You shouldnt cuss... (JT you either)

but bagel, you've had a negative attitude the whole time... even in Nicads thread. All because of a difference in opionion reguarding the angle of ones trigger frame...

This is the kind of behavior greater men than you have been banned for

[trains are bad]

Exactly. You people act like you are supposed to close your left eye and sight down the barrel like you are hunting deer

I always shoot with both eyes open, even with scoped rifles.

And 'pwned' is a word.

[yaddatrance]

Originally posted by BagelBoy2004


Cryer, then what is this ********* supposed to mean????

I will say they're being a bit harsh, but using words like "You people" never bring out the best in "us people".

[Cryer]

nicely put, trance:p

[cphilip]

Originally posted by BagelBoy2004


Cryer, then what is this ********* supposed to mean????

Take a deep breath... count to 10 and walk away before its too late. Its a discussion. It's not worth getting banned over. Think about it...

No more warnings.

[JT2002]

semi-cusses removed :D :D :rolleyes: ;) :( :cool: :D :o :D

[Gadget]

Lets face facts, if it's made in one frame design it is very unlikely to be either a Y or Z.

They want this to be popular and make them money and although both the Y and Z have their rabid supporters, a lot of people would see it and think 'eww', wheras the majority of players would happily use a 90 degree or .45 frame.

My order of preference is pretty much identical to Cryers - my vote went to the vert/90 frame purely on aesthetic grounds. :)

[JimmyBeam]

And 'pwned' is a word.

pwned irl kthxbye

keke

[Cryer]

Originally posted by Gadget
Lets face facts, if it's made in one frame design it is very unlikely to be either a Y or Z.

They want this to be popular and make them money and although both the Y and Z have their rabid supporters, a lot of people would see it and think 'eww', wheras the majority of players would happily use a 90 degree or .45 frame.

My order of preference is pretty much identical to Cryers - my vote went to the vert/90 frame purely on aesthetic grounds. :)
aesthetically, I like the 45's slightly better than the verts... Its a real tought toss up...

My preferences are based on the assumtion the shooting platform incorporates an Electronic trigger... However, once I think about it, I think I'd have similar preferances regarding mech triggers, although I've never used a mech vert frame...

[BagelBoy2004]

Originally posted by JimmyBeam


pwned (not a word in dictionary) irl kthxbye (this is not english)

keke

[Caffiend]

my preferences
Z, 45, vert, then Y. i've never used a vert, I just HATED the Y-grip but I LOVE the Z-grip, go figure.

[127.0.0.1]

Space frame.:D

[BagelBoy2004]

Anything other than a 45, i'll say it that way. The 45 grip is the most unnatural one for paintball. Paintball markers are not handguns. If it was a handgun then the 45 would be perfect.

[Cryer]

Originally posted by BagelBoy2004
Anything other than a 45, i'll say it that way. The 45 grip is the most unnatural one for paintball. Paintball markers are not handguns. If it was a handgun then the 45 would be perfect.

Most cases, yes.

I'm perfectly comfortable using a 45 when I use a rail. That puts the gun out far enough to where its more ergonomically correct.

[Shykicker]

As for the pointing thing, depending on where your front grip frame is, you can actually use that hand to point instead. The best way is to actually run your index finger down the side of your marker, using the middle finger on your shooting hand to fire. Ideally, you could use both, but then you're runing around shooting everybody the "Buddy Christ." ;)

http://www.imben.net/haha/buddychrist.jpg

edit: egh. I could have sworn the other hand was pointing...

[Cryer]

Thats kinda what I do...

When I walk my trigger in game, I'll usually use my middle and ring fingers and have my pointer down the body of the gun. Just seems more natural... Plus its faster for me:confused:

[spacemonkey]

soo just wondering i just bought a y-grip. would that be a bad idea? (or this all are preference?) i wanted to get one of those vert frames but i end up getting a Y. also what kind of rail should i get? im currently using a stock mini-.45 grip with razor drop... pls input.

[Cryer]

Nah, its all preference really... as far as drops/rails go... try that one out. If you dont like it, try a CP rail. thats what I use and theyre great. Also, I just ordered a dead on rail

http://www.deadonpaintball.com/images/Drop_Forward/DF-Bullet-1300-7_600.jpg

I like it so far

[BagelBoy2004]

Okay to settle this for good. The only paintballer in the world who should be using a 45 grip on a paintball marker..........
He uses not a drop-foward, cradle, or even a rail. He calls it a "Raise-Rearward".




http://borph.home.mindspring.com/protoleft.jpg

http://borph.home.mindspring.com/protoright.jpg

Notice how the hand is in the correct postition because of how long the gun is. For most of all paintball players, they tuck in tight. I also should mention people who own Tippmanns 45's are ok too.

[JT2002]

well for those of us who like to walk our triggers (like me :D ) at least for my style of shooting, i dont give a f*** what angle the frame is, cuz the only part of my hand that touches the frame is my thumb and my 2 trigger fingers.

bagelboy just drop it . face it, ur no dictator and will never be dictator of anything. ;) :rolleyes: :eek: :D :D

[BagelBoy2004]

Originally posted by Cryer


first off, You shouldnt cuss... (JT you either)

but bagel, you've had a negative attitude the whole time... even in Nicads thread. All because of a difference in opionion reguarding the angle of ones trigger frame...

This is the kind of behavior greater men than you have been banned for

It was not a cuss, if you notice I typed a row of stars. That's the truth.


Does not matter if you typed them or they were inserted by the filter. Its still cursing here on AO. Read the rules notice it says avoiding the filter or challenging the filter is cursing - so don't do it - cphilip

[BagelBoy2004]

Originally posted by JT2002
well for those of us who like to walk our triggers (like me :D ) at least for my style of shooting, i dont give a f*** what angle the frame is, cuz the only part of my hand that touches the frame is my thumb and my 2 trigger fingers.

bagelboy just drop it . face it, ur no dictator and will always be dictator of anything. ;) :rolleyes: :eek: :D :D

Walking is just for show.

[yaddatrance]

Originally posted by BagelBoy2004
Okay to settle this for good. The only paintballer in the world who should be using a 45 grip on a paintball marker..........
He uses not a drop-foward, cradle, or even a rail. He calls it a "Raise-Rearward".

Notice how the hand is in the correct postition because of how long the gun is. For most of all paintball players, they tuck in tight. I also should mention people who own Tippmanns 45's are ok too.

You just have to hold the gun differently. All I'm hearing
is that the Y-frame suits your shooting style better.
First off... rifles and carbines which hold the gun out
do *not* use a 45 style gripframe, they use a more
extreme angle, very similar to the original carbon fibre
grip frames on the mag.

http://images.google.com/images?q=M16&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en

Also, with a 45 style frame, [oops, hit enter and it posted]

http://www.asgardentertainment.com/misc/mp5.jpg

Or follow this link: http://www.oceantechnologysystems.com/military.html

You can tuck just nicely with it, you just hold your body
at a different angle.

Personal Preference.

[Cryer]

whew! good thing you settled that for good!:o

:confused:

:rolleyes:Look, 'holmes', when it comes down to it, its all personal preferance. You cant tell me that I "shouldnt use a 45 grip". Thats not your place.

Truth be told, the way I use a 45 grip, your argument has no bearing. I hold it higher, at the top of the grip. I place my forefinger up along the body of the gun. with my ring and middle finger, I walk the trigger. The only finger thats actually wrapped around the grip is my pinky. And thats just so its not hanging around.

That guy can have his "raise-rearward" if he's more effiecient at it. Personally, I dont see it as practical. You can have your Z-grip (or whatever you want) if your more efficient with that. Thats your thing.

And if you want me to stop using 45 frames, by all means, come try and take mine away from me...

[Cryer]

Originally posted by BagelBoy2004


It was not a cuss, if you notice I typed a row of stars. That's the truth.
Go read the forum rules.

[Cryer]

Originally posted by BagelBoy2004


Walking is just for show.
Walking is not for show. Have you played speedball? not like weekend walk-on speedball, but an actual tournament. where your opponents know what they're doing.

I dont hink you have. Either that, or you are simply trying to start an argument

[BagelBoy2004]

I don't have money to waste on a tournament that they don't pay me to play in.. Like I have money to shoot a case of paint every game. Like there's a difference between Walk-On Speedball and Tourney Speedball. The only difference I see is the price. come down to SC Village and tell me the speedball they play there isn't "real speedball".

[yaddatrance]

Originally posted by BagelBoy2004
I don't have money to waste on a tournament that they don't pay me to play in.. Like I have money to shoot a case of paint every game.

But all of your arguments were based off the tourney scene!

And... Yes, I'm sponsored, but I don't think that really
has much bearing on the points we're arguing...

[Cryer]

Do you come here just to argue?
And there is a difference between walk-on and tournie. Ask anyone who has played both. But thats OT.

[yaddatrance]

Originally posted by BagelBoy2004
come down to SC Village and tell me the speedball they play there isn't "real speedball".

I'll do that :) But it's up to SC Village for me...
I was going to go up there this last weekend, but i ended up
mowing the lawn at home instead :( Next weekend I'm at
Velocity and then the next week I'm off to do the TAW
scenario at Mr Paintball's... I might be up at SC
the last week of next month... PM me if you want to meet
up for a nice game of speedball.

And FYI, The difference is the stakes and what people will
do to win... When I'm playing recball, I will NOT
bunker someone... I also won't fire as fast because 1) my
fingers get tired enough, 2) it doesn't matter if I miss,
and 3) it doesn't even matter if the guy I missed gets me
out with his next ball.

Also, at a tourney, everyone will be feeling pressure from
their sponsors to win. So even if they're the laid back
type, they'll still go out to win, not just to have fun.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by BagelBoy2004


Pwned?????? WTF is that supposed to mean? Learn how to spell.

A few years ago, we all used to type "OWNED!" in Counter-Strike (early verisons), whenever we killed an enemy we didn't like (trash talking).

All of the sudden people started typing "pwned" instead. I thought they were just mis-hitting the keys as they typed fast.

Anyways, I found this explaination and found it interesting...

from:http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pwned&f=1




MEANING:
The past tense of the word "pwn," which means "to kick the of (an opponent)."

HISTORY:
Contrary to popular belief, "pwned" did not originate in Warcraft. A top Quake player mispelled "owned" and the term quickly spread to less players and eventually to nearly the entire population of online gamers. The word is usually used in online FPS and RTS games.

USAGE:
Pwned is often said to an individual's lesser opponent after the greater person or team has defeated his enemy.

[b]Can also be used when verbal superiority is shown in an arguement, for instance, on a video or computer game message board/forum.

"My archers pwned your wyvern, noob."

"Clan AIC just pwned you mother f'ers."

(After delivering a perfect arguement):
"PWNED [female dog] GGTHNXNORE"



http://www.whatisthebinty.com/images/fun/images/kickowned.jpg

As far as frames go, to me, it all depends on how you mount your tank.

No-drop style mounts like the uni-mount or rail... best = 45

But that's just me :)

[yaddatrance]

Ouch, that looks painful...

I usually find I go the other way and choose the
tank mount based on whatever frame I'm using...

[spacemonkey]

yep...
thats it for him, no more babbies for this poor guy.
and there goes his Balls into the goal and its GOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!