Why is everyone mad at Smart Parts?

[The Giltner]

OK so its a little hard to keep up with paintball when your in Iraq, so I was wondering why is everyone pissed at Smart Parts, what did they do? Please forgive my ignorance, I think I have a good reason. Thanks guys.

[TheDoveDecends]

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=9013&messageid=1058842375

Explains a lot..

[Nick O time]

ummm do a search man. no flaming intended but yeah alot of people will get mad at u probably if u dont start using the search button.

[bokraham]

because they're playa haters

and to them I say "don't hate the playa, hate the game"

[Chris42050]

Okay Okay we have all seen this discusion a million times. Lets just stop it right here Sp lovers/haters. This guy has a search button and a link to satisfy him. Lets not keep this post UP at the top. (No this is not a free up) Someone just posted.

[bokraham]

sorry....I just had to get that awsome saying out of me.

[Beemer]

Giltner whats up? Welcome to AO and THANK YOU. That link from TheDoveDecends is good if you have time{Good job Dove} What it is, is SmartParts is sueing Manufactures' over a questionable patent. If you need more info ask away Ill get it for ya or another Ao'er will.

Hate SP later Keep your Butt safe first. You have no ignorance and you need no reason, you are a U.S.A. Marine[Semperfidelis]

To Chris42050 this up aint free never was never will be. Next time be a real AO'er.

http://home.comcast.net/~ineedspeednow/dedicate.gif

[Chris42050]

Originally posted by Beemer
Giltner whats up? Welcome to AO and THANK YOU. That link from TheDoveDecends is good if you have time{Good job Dove} What it is, is SmartParts is sueing Manufactures' over a questionable patent. If you need more info ask away Ill get it for ya or another Ao'er will.

Hate SP later Keep your Butt safe first. You have no ignorance and you need no reason, you are a U.S.A. Marine[Semperfidelis]

To Chris42050 this up aint free never was never will be. Next time be a real AO'er.

http://home.comcast.net/~ineedspeednow/dedicate.gif
Okay cool guy. Care to explain how you are a real AO'er and I am not. I have been here long enough to have seen quite a few of these lovers/haters of sp battles and they go nowhere. You wanna pass stupid A judgements on people. Go ahead be ignorant.

[Raven4000SX]

I am a fan of SP products like their barrels and the new 2003 and Dynasty Shockers but what they are doing to the paintball market is just wrong. They put AKA out of business.

[deathstalker]

Originally posted by Raven4000SX
They put AKA out of business.
Last time I checked, SP did not put ANYONE out of business.:rolleyes:

[edweird]

ok then abridge that...


they put AKA out of the marker making business. Sure they could make mechs but who ya gonna buy mech from? AKA or AGD?

[deathstalker]

Originally posted by edweird
ok then abridge that...


they put AKA out of the marker making business. Sure they could make mechs but who ya gonna buy mech from? AKA or AGD?
I disagree with this as well. AKA could have licensed the right to use the technology patented by SP. Other companies did this, but AKA CHOSE not to do so. SP did not make them do anything.

[edweird]

Originally posted by deathstalker

I disagree with this as well. AKA could have licensed the right to use the technology patented by SP. Other companies did this, but AKA CHOSE not to do so. SP did not make them do anything.

nah that is BS... Smart parts chose to take legal action to set a legal precident with the shady patent they own. This action was directed at possibly the weakest of all the major manufactures. Sure AKA could of licensed the patent if Smart Parts offered it... but it would of been at a cost that AKA would of not recovered from(reputation as well as cash costs).

Smart parts forced a decision at the cost of pricey legal manuvering. And in my book legal strongarming is always a sign that a greater evil is at work. And if it was really that civil of a settlement as you seem to assume, why do you think Smart Parts has had a gag order put on the AKA suit.

Anyhow Smart parts has always played dirty pool if you asked me. After all they have yet to design anything inhouse, instead they prefer to buy out designs and then excessivly patent the design they did not even innovate in the first place.

Smart Parts is not going to get a dime outta me, my friends, or anyone else that I can prevent.

[DogBoy]

http://www.icedillusions.com/Anti-SP.html

[Chris42050]

Originally posted by DogBoy
http://www.icedillusions.com/Anti-SP.html
This is helpful to the thread. We need more people like you here.

[shartley]

Originally posted by edweird
nah that is BS... Smart parts chose to take legal action to set a legal precident with the shady patent they own. This action was directed at possibly the weakest of all the major manufactures. Sure AKA could of licensed the patent if Smart Parts offered it... but it would of been at a cost that AKA would of not recovered from(reputation as well as cash costs).
Do you know this as FACT? I don’t see it… sorry. Sure they targeted the cases they thought they had a better chance of winning FIRST, that is how it works. You may not agree with that, but that is simple business.

But the statement of AKA not being able to recover… I don’t see it. Do you have any proof of this?

Businesses make decisions all the time for one reason or another. Heck, the cost of materials alone can cause a company to stop making any given product if the material costs rise. The SP issue is no different. It is just easier to put a “face” to the “evil”…. Justified or not.


Originally posted by edweird
Smart parts forced a decision at the cost of pricey legal manuvering. And in my book legal strongarming is always a sign that a greater evil is at work. And if it was really that civil of a settlement as you seem to assume, why do you think Smart Parts has had a gag order put on the AKA suit.
And you know for a FACT the reason “SP has had a gag order put on the AKA suit”? Did you know that “gag orders” are a common think in cases just like this? In fact gag orders are common in all types of cases.


Originally posted by edweird
Anyhow Smart parts has always played dirty pool if you asked me. After all they have yet to design anything inhouse, instead they prefer to buy out designs and then excessivly patent the design they did not even innovate in the first place.
And did you know that the majority of the companies you buy products from do the EXACT SAME THING? Most of the major companies in any industry have gotten there by buying out other companies, forcing them out, farming out technology or ideas, etc. You then must not buy much of anything, because doing so would be supporting SOME company that has probably done much worse than SP has done… but the general public just doesn’t know about it, or does not care.


Originally posted by edweird
Smart Parts is not going to get a dime outta me, my friends, or anyone else that I can prevent.
And that is your right. But what I don’t agree with is the statements you and others are making with NO proof. Sure, they all SOUND good because it allows folks to hate SP, but they have little basis in fact. And what is even worse is that some of the folks who spout statements similar to yours are “respected” folks in the industry.

AKA chose to make the decision they did… period. There are plenty of customers who would buy a mechanical marker from MANY different manufacturers. In fact, there is usually less liability when making a mechanical marker since you don’t have to rely on electronics. Simply put, AKA made the decision they felt was best for them given a wide range of factors. SP was one of those factors, and probably the most important one, but to think they were FORCED to not make the markers is silly.

Those who don’t want to face the facts of business and need to hate SP will see what they want to see, and no amount of threads about this issue will change anything concerning this issue. And actually it will not even change SP’s bottom line.

I don’t know whether to get upset or to laugh…….

[Miscue]

Originally posted by shartley

Do you know this as FACT?

Do you know for a fact it is not the case?

Both of these questions are irrelevant, logically speaking. Ed deduced a strong argument. Refute it with a stronger argument, or invalidating evidence. Undeniable proof is not always present, but also isn't always necessary to figure out what is going on.

The sun does not have a chocolate center. Do I have proof? Did anyone check? No. But it is unlikely that some unknown space anamoly would allow for this to be.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Miscue
Do you know for a fact it is not the case?

Both of these questions are irrelevant, logically speaking. Ed deduced a strong argument. Refute it with a stronger argument, or invalidating evidence. Undeniable proof is not always present, but also isn't always necessary to figure out what is going on.

The sun does not have a chocolate center. Do I have proof? Did anyone check? No. But it is unlikely that some unknown space anomaly would allow for this to be.
My point is that he is not saying the sun has a chocolate center, he is making statements about a company that may not be true. It is not up to ME to prove that he is wrong when making such statements, it is up to HIM (and others) to prove they are correct.

I have pointed out time and again on AO how NOTHING SP has done is even remotely out of normal practice in the business world. I have shown time and again on AO how the claims many people have made about this issue have not only NOT come to pass, but were only made out of hate and the need to create more hate.

But those who want to “believe” a certain way will continue to do so and keep making statements with no valid backing for them. And you will keep coming back with “do you have proof it isn’t that way?”. And so… the circle continues, and STILL nothing changes. The sport goes on. The industry is not ruined. And players continue to buy electronic markers.

There are cars that are no longer being made. We still drive cars. The same with paintball… and in fact the Automobile Industry has seen FAR worse things done than anything SP has/is doing.

[Beemer]

OK so its a little hard to keep up with paintball when your in Iraq, so I was wondering why is everyone pissed at Smart Parts, what did they do? Please forgive my ignorance, I think I have a good reason. Thanks guys.



I have been here long enough to have seen quite a few of these lovers/haters of sp battles and they go nowhere. You wanna pass stupid A judgements on people. Go ahead be ignorant.

This didnt start as a battle, he just wanted some info on the deal. Read it again. First Im cool then Im ignorant. You MISSED my whole point. I will not name call but will say you show no respect or class.

Thanks again Giltner for what you do.

Peace out

[Miscue]

Originally posted by shartley

My point is that he is not saying the sun has a chocolate center, he is making statements about a company that may not be true. It is not up to ME to prove that he is wrong when making such statements, it is up to HIM (and others) to prove they are correct.



What approach do you suggest for proving what motives someone has for acting a certain way? Provide a method for us, such that if we follow it exactly - satisfactory proof could be provided that substantiates Ed's claims. If you cannot explain a method to do this, then you cannot have the expectation of a provision of "proof." Possibly no such method exists, and we are reduced to using induction and deduction when possible. Enlighten us.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Miscue


What approach do you suggest for proving what motives someone has for acting a certain way? Provide a method for us, such that if we follow it exactly - satisfactory proof could be provided that substantiates Ed's claims. If you cannot explain a method to do this, then you cannot have the expectation of a provision of "proof." Possibly no such method exists, and we are reduced to using induction. Enlighten us.
What I suggest is simple, but maybe TOO simple… if you don’t have PROOF of something, don’t post it. If you don’t have proof of a motive, don’t post is as fact….. but instead clearly state this is your opinion and nothing more.

The problem is, is that too many people are posting pure opinion and conjecture based on how they want to see things, and when someone points this out others get upset. If you are going to claim something is anything BUT your opinion, then you should be required to back it up with proof. And those who ask for proof should not be required to prove the opposite, more so since they were not the ones making the statements in the first place.

[Chris42050]

And so it begins the Ole SP battle. This is what I was talkin about Beemer. Man I H8 bein right. His question was answered but mine was not beemer. This thread went where they all go straight to nowhere (with exception from DogBoy). I could see it a mile away. Im not tryin to flame anyone here for there posts. Just sayin they go nowhere.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by shartley

What I suggest is simple, but maybe TOO simple… if you don’t have PROOF of something, don’t post it. If you don’t have proof of a motive, don’t post is as fact….. but instead clearly state this is your opinion and nothing more.


http://skepdic.com/ignorance.html

First of all, it's obvious that it his opinion! You do not have to qualify everything as opinion, when people are reasonable enough to recognize it as so. It is understood, without putting out roadsigns.

What he said may not be true - I agree!. But, it makes a lot of sense and I think is likely.**





** = this is my opinion, and I am not endorsing it as fact.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Miscue


http://skepdic.com/ignorance.html

First of all, it's obvious that it his opinion! You do not have to qualify everything as opinion, when people are reasonable enough to recognize it as so. It is understood, without putting out roadsigns.

What he said may not be true - I agree!. But, it makes a lot of sense and I think is likely.**





** = this is my opinion, and I am not endorsing it as fact.
The problem is that on the internet, too much of what is “obviously” opinion, is stated so often by people that it suddenly becomes “internet fact”. And I live in the real world and know that far too often what is “likely” is not the truth or reality. Many times there is more than one “likelihood”, but which we choose to see depends on where we stand on an issue.

And while your little link was amusing and true for some things, it does not hold true for statements made about a company or person. When statements are made about people or companies and someone asks for proof, you can not simply say “prove me wrong”, to support your statements. And the person asking for proof is not required to prove the contrary.

[edweird]

Wow thanks Miscue for taking up the banner while I was bodging up the 23 year old civics we call F-16's into flying condition under the hammer of manditory 12 hour shifts.

So facts is what ya want... well so did I.

But unfortunatly AKA is unable to talk about the particulars of the smart parts suit. Many of us have asked and no I dont keep the friggin emails cause knowing is enough for me.

I respect AKA for not selling out like Eclipse did today... but then again eclipse has always made impy frames and of course Smart Parts is not going to rape people (as badly) that make aftermarket parts for markers they own the rights to. (note I did not say "create") Common logic would tell you that a company such as Smart parts would offer a much higher settlement bill to a company that is not affiliated with producing parts for any of smart parts products.


And did you know that the majority of the companies you buy products from do the EXACT SAME THING? Most of the major companies in any industry have gotten there by buying out other companies, forcing them out, farming out technology or ideas, etc. You then must not buy much of anything, because doing so would be supporting SOME company that has probably done much worse than SP has done… but the general public just doesn’t know about it, or does not care.

Im sorry sam, just cause other companys do it does not make it right. Also when it comes to "Business Ethics" I will take my lessons from someone else, thank you very much. And its true that I dont buy much of anything... without looking into what my options are. I would also hope that this is true of how others do business. Oh and since we are at it lets not condone the actions of Smart Parts just cause other companys are done the same or /gasp worse...

So now ive given something for the infamous Sam Hartley to spend all day making point by point itemize and formulate a bulleted list of failed counter arguments to; I can get my eroding 8 hours of crew rest in before my next 12 hour try at making 23 year old F-16's fly, fight and win.

"The beatings will continue until morale imporves"
Ed Ostling

[Beemer]

This is what I was talkin about Beemer. Man I H8 bein right. His question was answered but mine was not beemer.

Ya Miscue and Shartly did a little hijack on rules of debate or fact and opinion, at least its constructive convo. Hopefully Giltner will have a chance to check out the links or at least get a grin reading the thread and post again.

Your answer is in the thread. A question was asked I posted an answer, and support for our troops.


If you need more info ask away Ill get it for ya or another Ao'er will.

Lo and behold another link, questioned answered



DogBoy: http://www.icedillusions.com/Anti-SP.html


All the other posts have input but this


ummm do a search man. no flaming intended but yeah alot of people will get mad at u probably if u dont start using the search button.

Ya like he has time to do a search in Iraq. This is AO, ask questions and we get you answers.

Edweird.... dont worry I pay a part of your wages and Im putting in for a raise for all our Armed Forces.[expect delays though]:mad: in the mean time use the force and your magic and make em fly :cool:

[shartley]

Originally posted by edweird
So facts is what ya want... well so did I.

But unfortunatly AKA is unable to talk about the particulars of the smart parts suit. Many of us have asked and no I dont keep the friggin emails cause knowing is enough for me.
So, AKA sent you e-mails about this issue even with a gag order (which applies to both sides in the case)? Or maybe I am misunderstanding what you are posting?


Originally posted by edweird
I respect AKA for not selling out like Eclipse did today... but then again eclipse has always made impy frames and of course Smart Parts is not going to rape people (as badly) that make aftermarket parts for markers they own the rights to. (note I did not say "create") Common logic would tell you that a company such as Smart parts would offer a much higher settlement bill to a company that is not affiliated with producing parts for any of smart parts products.
I respect AKA for doing what they decided was best for them. And you can call everyone else who is still making products and entering into agreements with SP as “selling out” but they are still making the products and players are still able to purchase them. I guess it is all in how you look at things.


Originally posted by edweird
Im sorry sam, just cause other companys do it does not make it right. Also when it comes to "Business Ethics" I will take my lessons from someone else, thank you very much. And its true that I dont buy much of anything... without looking into what my options are. I would also hope that this is true of how others do business. Oh and since we are at it lets not condone the actions of Smart Parts just cause other companys are done the same or /gasp worse...
Who said anything about “condoning”? This is the HUGE problem with this issue on the internet…. Folks will take the fact that someone views an issue without emotion and from a strictly business standpoint and construe that as “condoning”. This is NOT the case, nor even close.

I don’t know how many times I have posted that I do not condone, nor support what SP is doing…. But that does not mean I will jump on the bandwagon in bashing them without all the facts. I will not post articles about how evil SP is and how they will ruin the sport of paintball and players will soon not be able to buy any electronic markers unless they pay drastically increased prices for them (no matter how popular this way of thinking is, or how popular I may become by doing so).

The problem is that folks see a glimpse of something and then draw their own conclusions. They also draw them in line with exactly how they WANT things to be. And no matter how many people step up and point out that it is not correct, they will simply see what they want, and think what they want. I had this happen to ME, and you know what? Almost everyone was clueless and way off base. But because they can come up with what looked like “plausible” stories and those stories matched what they WANTED to think, suddenly it became “internet fact”.

And I am sick and tired of folks trying to insinuate that I am something less than moral, or that I agree with immoral business decisions simply because I refuse to be one of the mob and not look at the business world in the way it IS, not the way some people think it is.


Originally posted by edweird
So now ive given something for the infamous Sam Hartley to spend all day making point by point itemize and formulate a bulleted list of failed counter arguments to; I can get my eroding 8 hours of crew rest in before my next 12 hour try at making 23 year old F-16's fly, fight and win.

"The beatings will continue until morale imporves"
Ed Ostling
And here we go…. You could not simply stick to an issue but had to make it personal. Sorry Ed, but I just got online this morning and this has taken me as long as it takes me to TYPE out the response. I don’t need all day to address such weak arguing points and personal affronts. And it is nice how you try to make it look like while you are doing something so noble, I am just sitting in front of my computer. Sorry pal, but a good many of us have served our nation as well… and in times of War. I thank you for your service, but don’t act like it somehow makes your posts any more valid or your life/actions any more noble than mine.

THIS is why you can’t have discussions on AO that involve differing views. It always degrades into personal issues.

And sorry folks, an Anti-SP site is not the place to find true and impartial information.

[shartley]

Oh…. And this comment…

Also when it comes to "Business Ethics" I will take my lessons from someone else, thank you very much.

Did that apply to ME or to SP?

[Ydna]

Yes it is very true that SP only wanted royalities in the first place. Some things happened, then in the end, because AKALMP refused to be a licensee, the Viking and Excal paid the price.

However I seriously stress the point that it is the Viking and the Excalibur that went down. Nothing stops them from producing another electropneumatic marker, except being sued again. In this case, they could either accept the license and make everyone happy or they could get around the patent. Or they could sell them outside of the US (for the time being).

However don't forget about the LMP half of AKALMP. This is not a small company we're talking about. People are completely misrepresenting it when they refeer to it as a "ma and pop" company. Everybody is poorer then SP.

[DeeEight]

Originally posted by deathstalker

I disagree with this as well. AKA could have licensed the right to use the technology patented by SP. Other companies did this, but AKA CHOSE not to do so. SP did not make them do anything.

well only NPS has actually said they're licensing it, and NPS is also the largest SP distributor in america, so I doubt if they're paying ANYTHING for the license. SP isn't about to annoy the biggest buyer/distributor of their gear.

[DogBoy]

http://www.planeteclipse.com/site/eNews.asp?newsID=45

Press Release
added 4/2/2004
Smart Parts, Inc. and Planet Eclipse today announced the signing of a patent license agreement giving Planet a worldwide, non-exclusive license to make, sell, offer for sale, and distribute products covered by Smart Parts’ electronic paintball gun patents.

Smart Parts owns several U.S. and international patents and pending patent applications related to the use of electronics in the control and operation of paintball guns. These include, for instance, U.S. Patent Nos. 5,881,707; 5,967,133; 6,035,843; 6,474,326 B1; and 6,637,421 B2, as well as patents and/or pending patent applications in Germany, France, United Kingdom, Switzerland, Canada, Japan, and other countries.

when will it stop?