Mag' Air Efficiency

[MagMcBride]

Is there any way to increase the air efficiency of a mag? I just realized I only get like 500-600 shots from my 68/3k...and my buddie's "gas hog" shocker gets like 1300 from his 68/4500 Max Flo. (I have a Max Flo as well) Any help would be appreciated!!

[Chronobreak]

nothing to do get a bigger tank f u want and if u had a 4500 ude get around 700-800 or so that should be enough

[MagMcBride]

dont have 350 for another max flo and I CANNOT find another reg that is anywhere as consistant as it (within 2-5 fps on the chrony)

[gibby]

If you have a level 10 installed, try using the shortest spring...that gained me a noticeable difference in shots per fill.

If you don't mind the noise, a less ported barrel?

[speedyejl]

Just get another tank for your reg, or sell the max flow and get a non-adjustable tank

[TheTramp]

500-600 per 68/3000 is pretty low. I was getting closer to 800 for a tank that size.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by MagMcBride
Is there any way to increase the air efficiency of a mag? I just realized I only get like 500-600 shots from my 68/3k...and my buddie's "gas hog" shocker gets like 1300 from his 68/4500 Max Flo. (I have a Max Flo as well) Any help would be appreciated!!

To start with, you're comparing apples and oranges. Put a 68/4500 on your mag THEN compare the numbers.

Then, what's your Mag setup? Barrel type/length, lvl10?, what spring?

Is your Max-Flo capable of accepting 4500psi input? If so, but just a 4500psi tank.

[Z-man]

Originally posted by speedyejl
Just get another tank for your reg, or sell the max flow and get a non-adjustable tank

Actually in general the adjustable regs are generally more efficient than the preset counterparts. In addition the 4500 series regs in general are more efficient than the 3000psi ones.

Since you are using a 3000psi reg that limits you to 3000psi obviously. I don't know if a nice 4500 preset like one from CenterFlag would outperform the Max-Flow but you are wanting to keep it cheap right?

The "money is no concern" way is to get a nice high quality adjustable 4500 tank.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Z-man
Actually in general the adjustable regs are generally more efficient than the preset counterparts.

Umm. Accurate, consistent, maybe even more responsive or freeflowing ...

But Efficient?:confused:

I think you've got some terms confused.

An adjustable or preset set at the same output pressure should both provide the same number of shots.

[Z-man]

Test it yourself if you don't belive me. As a matter of fact, this looks like a good time for me to make another addition to my rapid-fire thread. Here is what I will do.

Ill go borrow one of my friends 3000psi preset tanks and shoot it till its dry at a constant speed. Then Ill try the same thing on my 4500psi Max-Flo with the same input pressure.

I claim that I will consistancly get more shots per tank than the preset will. I might suggest you do the same so we can compare results.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Z-man
Ill go borrow one of my friends 3000psi preset tanks and shoot it till its dry at a constant speed. Then Ill try the same thing on my 4500psi Max-Flo with the same input pressure.

Umm that's pointless.

Of course one tank with more pressure will shoot more than another with less pressure.:rolleyes:

Has nothing to do with whether the tank is preset or adjustable.

Now, if you meant to comapare a:
- 68/4500 preset
with a:
- 68/4500 adjustable

Then you'd have a valid test. But besides pressure setting creep both should shoot exaclty the same number of shots when filled to the same pressure and emptied to the same pressure.

[Z-man]

Sorry, forgot to metion same fill pressure.

All the same, how do can you argue that it's not fair to test a 3K reg and a 4.5K reg? If, as you claim there is no differnece in the total number of shots and I say there is, why not try an extreme difference in hardware.

All that would have to be made as constistant as possible is:

- the marker (including velocity and barrel)

- the input pressure

-the fill pressure

- the temperature of the tank and makrer (have to let them cool to room temp

- the speed at which the shots are fired

If I test that 3-4 times for each tanka nd try to keep those variables as constant as possible I would think that is a perfect test

[MagMcBride]

-68 with A.I.R. Valve
-Polished ss pf left body (with chrome PF Plug)
-12" 2-piece AA (Stainless Back)
-10" Dye SS
-Chrome Blade Intelli
-68/3k OLD MODEL Max Flo (On/Off valve on it is knob NOT lever!!)
-KAPP Chrome Gas-Thru Grip
-Input Pressure on Reg set to 900 (I like to keep velocity at 260 on my airball field)
-LX with custom spring (1/2 coil longer than the short one) with the second smallest carrier

Soon to be Wish List:
Chrome centerfeed ULE body
Chrome X-Valve

Once again I only get about 500-600 shots from my tank and it has always been like this, not a recent thing (Put the Max Flo on a 02' STO and got about 800 shots out of it).

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Z-man
Sorry, forgot to metion same fill pressure.

All the same, how do can you argue that it's not fair to test a 3K reg and a 4.5K reg?

Tested at the same fill pressure no problem. Otherwise you're proving the rather stupidly self-evident thesis that a tank with more pressure will shoot more shots.

My only beef was with the fill pressure.

To make the test properly informative, you need to take the tank pressure before and after the taest. And the fill pressure of both tanks has to be cold and stabilised.

There may indeed be a difference in number of shots. But it will be due to regulator design and not preset vs. adjustable. Although it's highly likely that the average preset is a better designed regulator than the average preset.

The difference will be due to how much input pressure (that is tank pressure) the regulator requires to give the desired output. Also how much the regulator output varies with respect to tank pressure will have a large influence over shot to shot consistency, recharge rate, etc ...

If a particular regulator gives more shots per tank, I'm certain it will be shown it's because the final pressure in the tank is lower in the regulator that shot more compared to tank pressure with the regulator that shot less.

And of course there MAY be differences is actual tank volume ...

[speedyejl]

Your joking one regulator being more efficient than another?

Try explaining how and why do your test to show that its impossible.

Unless their being over-pressurized or leaking air or something, regs don't vent air, they only send it in one direction, explain where the loss of air is going there.

[Z-man]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
There may indeed be a difference in number of shots. But it will be due to regulator design and not preset vs. adjustable. Although it's highly likely that the average preset is a better designed regulator than the average preset.

Perhaps that is the thing we are arguing over. I am not claiming that the ability to adjust the input pressure is the direct reason that the regulator is more efficient (though that would be another interesting test).

I am however arguing that in general the adjustable 4,500psi regulators are more efficient because they are built better.

Would you agree?

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Z-man
I am however arguing that in general the adjustable 4,500psi regulators are more efficient because they are built better.

Would you agree?

Well, I certainly won't agree with the use of the word "Efficiency" it should behaps be "effective" and I highly doubt that the differnce in shots would be significant, but as highly subjective generalisations go, I'll agree.:D

[Z-man]

As far as I am concerned, efficient to the extent that we are paintballers care means you get more shots out of the tank. Regardless of the actual design details, if the end result is that you get 200 more shots out of the same pressure, same volume tank, that is an increase in efficiency yes?

[MagMcBride]

Beg to differ man, my Max Flo has a vent on the front of the reg where excess air can leak from...

[hitech]

Originally posted by MagMcBride
Once again I only get about 500-600 shots from my tank and it has always been like this...

That is too low. You should get more than that. Here are some possible reasons:

1. Paint too small. If the paint is too small for the barrel you will have to turn up the velocity adj. To get the velocity you desire. This wastes air (it blows pas the paintball). It should give very consistent chrono reading, however. ;)

2. Level 10 carrier too small. If the level 10 carrier is too small it will put extra pressure on the bolt stem and cause you to again turn up the velocity to get it too work. Try this. Remove the valve. Hold the valve vertical. Lift the bolt up until it comes off the oring, but the stem is still in the power tube tip. Let go. It should make it all the way to the valve body. If it stops on the oring, the carrier is too small.

3. Leaks. Any leak, even small ones will make a difference. If your tank has an output gauge and on/off valve, air it up and turn off the valve. Wait a few hours and check the gauge. If it drops, you have a leak.

Good luck.

[Z-man]

oh great that is a whole nother aspect that I would have to deal with.

Paint sizing and consistancy....

Still.. using real stuff you buy and testing in a real world setting can be more informative than a lab.... no one shoots under such conditions and as such they are unimportant I guess....

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Z-man
Still.. using real stuff you buy and testing in a real world setting can be more informative than a lab.... no one shoots under such conditions and as such they are unimportant I guess....

Actually no. In "real world" testing, you can have no idea how much of an effect a single variable has.

Without known variables and variation of only known test variables, test data is useless.

Now, in this case, using a tighter barel and playing with the rest of the set-up as-is WOULD be a valid real world test.

But, if it has always been low in the 500-600 shots per tank, then it may be a case of leaks or poor/low pressure fills.

[Z-man]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast

Now, in this case, using a tighter barel and playing with the rest of the set-up as-is WOULD be a valid real world test.

But, if it has always been low in the 500-600 shots per tank, then it may be a case of leaks or poor/low pressure fills.

I that was spoken in refernce to our hypothetical discussion not this guys problem. I think for the sake of clarity Ill make a new thread once I do some preliminry testing and have some data to work with.

As for his problem, yes make sure the paint is matched to the barrel, that there are no leaks. I suppose the smaller spring on the LX would also help some though it would be a bit harder on the paint.

[MagMcBride]

I have matched midnight perfect with my AA and I Match Big Ball in my Dye SS so the paint isnt an issue. As far as the carrier is concerned, I put the one that is quite snug on, and I am positive it is not leaking. Um, about the leaving it on for several hours, my friend has a brand new 03' Max flow on his shocker and we both have gassed them up and laid them side by side and turned them off, then went to the movies and when we came back (about 3 hours later), mine was down to about 750 and his was at 40 (Shocker's max flo reg set to 300). He gets about 1300 shots from his so using a ratio, even if he DOES have a leak (which I am SURE he doesn't) it isnt enough to affect the performance. I dont know if the Max Flo just has a natural venting but I have used mine on a cocker and had better results with it (stated in above post) than with my Mag...I just wish I could get 800 shots from it (I play back in airball....kind of need to shoot alot) :)

[Z-man]

just out of curiosity, which model of the 3K Max-Flo is it? What year?

[MagMcBride]

THe old 99 (Before the lever design came out for it, it used a knob for on/off)

[hitech]

Originally posted by MagMcBride
As far as the carrier is concerned, I put the one that is quite snug on, and I am positive it is not leaking.

The carrier is too tight. Now that it is probably well broken in try a half size larger. See if it leaks. If not, try another half size larger. If that doesn't leak the chrono it. You should find that it is shooting hotter. Even if it isn't, try turning it down and see what effect it has on the chrono. I'm betting you will be able/have to turn it down.

[MagMcBride]

I HAD the one larger on it, the o-ring broke in, and it started leaking, so I put the one smaller on...so there goes that....

[hitech]

Try the bolt "drop test". If it "fails" then the carrier is too small. If it leaks with the next half size larger carrier then you need to start over with a different oring. BTW, a friend of mine had the SAME problem with his eMag. I had to change his oring to get one that would fit properly.

[MagMcBride]

Have tried swiching o-rings, the LX is setup just fine on the mag, and besides like I said this has ALWAYS been like this on my mag (even before I had my LX)

[hitech]

I don't know then. I can tell you that is too low. Should be a min. of 700. More like over 800. :confused:

BTW, if you dry fire you will use A LOT more air.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by Z-man
Test it yourself if you don't belive me. As a matter of fact, this looks like a good time for me to make another addition to my rapid-fire thread. Here is what I will do.

Ill go borrow one of my friends 3000psi preset tanks and shoot it till its dry at a constant speed. Then Ill try the same thing on my 4500psi Max-Flo with the same input pressure.

I claim that I will consistancly get more shots per tank than the preset will. I might suggest you do the same so we can compare results.

If two tanks output the same pressure, there's no reason one would be more efficient than another. If a preset is set at 800psi and an adjustable is set at 800psi, the only way the preset will get less shots is if the output raises (from the tank pressure dropping) and the adjustable doesn't. In that case, it's not that the preset is less efficient than the adjustable, it's just that there's a pressure difference and you can't shoot as deep into the tank.

No where near the same thing.

[MagMcBride]

Well thanks for the advice...I will play around with a few more things, the only way I could get another Max Flo is if I sold this one and used the money from it to buy a new one. Thanks again!

[HotBallz87]

i have a 68 classic mag, gas thru grip, 10" boss progressive barrel, and a 3000 psi 48 cu tank,
from what ive been reading, its pretty normal to get 400-550 shots out of a tank that small? or is there something wrong?

[MagMcBride]

that's good for a 48 tank....mine is 68 and I only get 500 or so... :(

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

am I the only one to notice this?



originaly posted by: MagMcBride
Chrome centerfeed ULE body
Chrome X-Valve


does someone know something I dont?

[MagMcBride]

Of course I mean chrome colored....The valve and body are aluminum so polished or nickel or whatever...my gun is still shiny as hell

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

closest thing they have is pewter, and thats not really a chrome or polished color