A nice, intelligent, mature convo about SP

[Glickman]

Feel free to move this if its the the wrong spot.

Ok. Smart parts is making money off of every icd gun, and has stopped the production of others, but honestly, has any prices of other guns gone up? why is that this has turned into a "cool" thing to do, why is it "all the rage"

We all understand what they did, or do we? after interviewing many people, i found that 65% knew what sp did, some of them barely... i did not count answers like "they messed up paintball (and thats it)" and that sort of crap.

The only reason i didnt buy smart parts for a while was because numerous sources said paintball prices were going to go up, due to royalties...

have they.....

well i would like some comment on this (besides the xmag, we all can hate them for that) but really, how bad are they, they did waht a company should do, they do waht "smart" companies do, they patent stuff. Other companies couldve, but they didnt.

Im thinking about getting a shocker, and put alot of thought into this.

Face it: most of people just hate them cause every one else does. its not cool, its... hatefull. This happends in every industry, every... so put up some WELL THOUGHT OUT RESPONSES.

If i get any "they still suck. period" then i shall disembowel you with a boomstick.

beware the wrath. moo moo :D

[Digits]

very true.. Alot of the bigger companies reside out of country so smart parts can't touch with them.. They have only effected AKA and ICD.. AGD they merely effected.. E/Xmags are still availible threw Europe though so it's not a huge deal..

So we'll look at it this way.. With AKA and ICD gone lets see who's left..

Mac Dev - Out of country, can't really touch them
WDP - Out of country
AGD E - out of country
Smart Parts - I don't think they'd sue themselves..
Dye - I think they made a deal with sp (correct me if i'm wrong)
WGP - Who knows what's going on here..
Timmies - I don't know this one either.. It doesn't look like there stopping any time soon.

So in reality smart parts isn't effecting the rest of PB that much.. They've only really stopped 1 company and slowed down two others. Blah lost my train of thought.. Good night

[Mag Master 04]

smart parts has made a good move on their behalf...they cornered the market and now they will soon reep the benefits for the time being. but what they did (as smart as it is on their end currently) will hurt the sport in the long run. they just caused a major uproar and it wont be silenced. it was totally unnecissary(spelling?) and they will continue to get ripped on because of it. the advancement of the sport was moving along just fine and it was now put to an end because someone had to get a little greedy. well i hope they like the hole that they dug for themselves... and btw there are too many of these threads:rolleyes:

[Digits]

Oh and honestlly I don't think anyone truely hates smart parts.. Very few people decide they will boycot them (And people that never would of bought sp stuff in the first place don't count).. Like hell you see everyone on the internet say "smart parts sucks", "screw smart parts", but then you go to the field and everyone says nice shocker can I try it... You have the few that will ramble on about oh I hate SP but no one does anything about it.. They just say they hate them once in the day and it's over.

[Glickman]

well if u havent seen, both are still around, their still producing their 04 guns, brand new, so they have some way of still producing and selling their guns.

[LudavicoSoldier]

The biggest problem I have with SP is that they are stifling innovation in electronic markers. Knowing that you will have to pay a licensing fee IS NOT an incentive to try to bring a new electro to market. I actually like some of SP's stuff (Freak, Maxflow), and at one time I had a glacier shocker, which I loved. I think its more a question of ethics, but then again, when has American business ever been ethical? Welcome to capitalism.

[-=Squid=-]

Well, personally, I know exactly whats going on.

With that said, I think the entire situation is bogus. Patenting that is like, as other people have put it, patenting the internal combustion engine. Its one of the things that is NEEDED for paintball to grow, and this only slowed things down.

On top of that, it ceased the production of what are arguably some of the best markers ever made, the viking and exalibur.

I dont hate them because its the "cool" thing to do, I hate them because I think what they did was wrong. There is a difference between a business deal, and what they did. I consider what they have done to be immoral, as if to go that far.

Before you supporters say that this sort of thing happens every day, sure it does. But im still entitled to my opinnion on the matter, and I think that paintball is a tight-knit enough community where I wouldnt imagine a company deliberately hurting the ENTIRE sport like that, but then again, it DID just happen, and its not changing.

With all of that being said, please let some of my advice soak in: DONT buy that shocker. For that $850 you could buy a dye matrix, which will not only be a MUCH better marker (faster, better customer service, less bugs, similar design which you seek, chops less, etc) but you will also not be supporting Smart Parts.

And yes, digits, I hate smart parts. I dont have the tiniest smart parts paraphenalia, and you will not see me asking to shoot ANYBODIES shocker. I have, in fact, not played because the only thing available was an impulse. Stupid? Not to me.

[Digits]

Originally posted by Glickman
well if u havent seen, both are still around, their still producing their 04 guns, brand new, so they have some way of still producing and selling their guns.

Well I think AKA is just finishing off there orders.. I don't think there taking anymore..

But yes ICD is still going.. Although there prices have inflated a little.

[jdev]

I dont think people really understand what is going on here. Smart Parts is enforcing a patent that they hold. end of story.

Everything else that comes into play is how they got that patent, albeit as broad as it is, is emotional response from players who have chosen from the start/prior to this patent enforcement, that they do not want to use products for one reason or another. Alot of people, since this blitzkreig tactic has come into play, have decide to no longer support smart parts because they think it is morally wrong. unfortunately, there are no morals in business, at least not anymore. smart parts is out for smart parts. they are enforcing patents that they hold.. no matter how broad they may be.

I read this today on planet eclipses websute (http://www.planeteclipse.com/site/eNews.asp?newsID=45)



Smart Parts, Inc. and Planet Eclipse today announced the signing of a patent license agreement giving Planet a worldwide, non-exclusive license to make, sell, offer for sale, and distribute products covered by Smart Parts’ electronic paintball gun patents.

Smart Parts owns several U.S. and international patents and pending patent applications related to the use of electronics in the control and operation of paintball guns. These include, for instance, U.S. Patent Nos. 5,881,707; 5,967,133; 6,035,843; 6,474,326 B1; and 6,637,421 B2, as well as patents and/or pending patent applications in Germany, France, United Kingdom, Switzerland, Canada, Japan, and other countries


related to the use of electronics in the control and operation of paintball guns. more or less, if its battery powered, you're screwed, to put it in lamens terms. One has to wonder, how a patent that broad was granted to an applicant. It just boggles the mind. Now, I dont really have any knowledge of the patents they do hold, I only know in short, it is described as it is taken from the quote above. But, how they got it, and get patents, are BS.

I was talking with Alan from Destructive Customs, about the smart parts things. He discussed and touched upon a few things that he asked I not repeat, but, this one thing we did discuss, I will mention (as he didnt ask me not to keep it to myself).

Smart parts recently (within the past 2 months) applied for a patent on something. I think it was similar to the opto-trigger on an angel. They were granted this patent in about 1 months time. Sound odd? It should. Jared, Alans partner, has applied for patents before, and on average, it takes about a year to get thing sorted out. Now, is there any relation to the patent offices favoritism, and smart parts? who knows, could be all speculation, but, its food for thought also.

in some sort of attempt to end this post and go to bed.. smart parts did what they had to do as a company. they enforced their patent. If they didnt, they lose it. simple as that. many of us dont like it, but, its done. its over. go back out to the field and play some ball with your e-marker.. just dont let it be a SP marker..

[Rope a Dope]

[thread hijack]

Smart Parts is GHEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[/thread hijack]

[Glickman]

If i get any "they still suck. period" then i shall disembowel you with a boomstick.



ok mr thread hijacker

*takes out boomstick*

[member#10,261]

I don't know all the little details...but I do know what is going on. I see it as smart parts looking out for smart parts. I don't think they are trying to f over the paintball community, I do think they are a buisness and as a buisness they defend thier rights. Although it is the low thing to do it is the smart thing to do. I do not blame them, I would do the same thing. BTW-the shocker is nice...but as sead before the trix is better.

[Glickman]

ive never acutally played in a game with the shocker so i cant compare it to my dye trix, but the thing is, its hella heavy. just alone it weighs 4.5 lbs. with a tank and empty hopper, 7 lbs. but it shoots really well, it would be alot better if i found someone to mill off that dead air chamber, doc never answeres, and noones seems to wanna try :(

[rx2]

I don't see how they are impeding the progress of the sport to any appreciable degree. They have made it a little less cost effective for some companies to produce electronically actuated markers. When you think about it, those sorts of triggering mechanisms, as they fall under the coverage of SP's patent, don't really have much of anywhere to progress to as far as innovation or technology. Already, these mechanisms allow firing rates far exceeding the limits of human physiology. The only real "advances" that I have seen being made as of late are ways to keep the mechanism functioning better under extreme use, and ways to cheat via the software used, which is something that isn't under SP's patent.

Now, I will grant that some companies who can't compete will have to bow out, which may remove certain coveted designs from the market. However, I fail to see any true setbacks because of this. For, it is arguable that what may seem to be the holy grail to some, is just something to note in passing to others. May overall quality suffer? Perhaps. But, it would only be speculation to say so.

Furthermore, as the cliche goes, necessity IS the mother of all invention. Really, most players and consumers are very complacent. Perhaps this little bump in the road might spur other advancements that certain manufacturers might have seen as too risky, or superfluous had they not been forced to give up electronic triggers, or pay to use them. Consider the hAir trigger. Two years ago, this might have been seen as merely a curiousity. Now, however, it seems more like an entirely viable option for firing fast, without the electronics. And, if this is something that will work as well as it seems it may, who is to say that certain companies might not try to find a way to apply this, or similar systems to their own markers, thus reviving designs that had been compromised by the SP lawsuit.

Finally, one has to ask themselves this question. If you were a manufacturer, who had "stumbled" upon the rights to a common system, would you not sieze the opportunity, especially in light of the fact that the end users and their dollars would still be there when the dust settled?
Really, people don't care enough to do anything, so why should SP care to forfeit the opportunity?

This isn't has bad as some make it out to be, it seems. I can think of other lawsuits that are in poorer taste, such as when $Gibson$ sued PRS because they have a guitar with a similar body shape, which is a shape that has been used by countless manufacturers for nearly a century. If they lost any money, it certainly isn't because another guitar looked slightly similar.

Of course, I can't argue that this SP lawsuit isn't a bit distasteful. Certainly, they have all of the money they need. But, that's capitalism, and if it weren't for ruthless competition, it could be argued that a lot of technology would fail to have been developed in the first place.

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by Glickman
ive never acutally played in a game with the shocker so i cant compare it to my dye trix, but the thing is, its hella heavy. just alone it weighs 4.5 lbs. with a tank and empty hopper, 7 lbs. but it shoots really well, it would be alot better if i found someone to mill off that dead air chamber, doc never answeres, and noones seems to wanna try :( You already have a dye trix?!?

Jeez... dont waste money on that 03 shocker. If you HAVE to have a new gun in that price range, get a speed or something.

[Glickman]

eh, ive shot them, their not for me. i mean, wahts the point of having 1 gun u use alot, and 1 u never use, when u can have 2 that u get use out of?

[Digits]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Well, personally, I know exactly whats going on.

With that said, I think the entire situation is bogus. Patenting that is like, as other people have put it, patenting the internal combustion engine. Its one of the things that is NEEDED for paintball to grow, and this only slowed things down.

On top of that, it ceased the production of what are arguably some of the best markers ever made, the viking and exalibur.

I dont hate them because its the "cool" thing to do, I hate them because I think what they did was wrong. There is a difference between a business deal, and what they did. I consider what they have done to be immoral, as if to go that far.

Before you supporters say that this sort of thing happens every day, sure it does. But im still entitled to my opinnion on the matter, and I think that paintball is a tight-knit enough community where I wouldnt imagine a company deliberately hurting the ENTIRE sport like that, but then again, it DID just happen, and its not changing.

With all of that being said, please let some of my advice soak in: DONT buy that shocker. For that $850 you could buy a dye matrix, which will not only be a MUCH better marker (faster, better customer service, less bugs, similar design which you seek, chops less, etc) but you will also not be supporting Smart Parts.

And yes, digits, I hate smart parts. I dont have the tiniest smart parts paraphenalia, and you will not see me asking to shoot ANYBODIES shocker. I have, in fact, not played because the only thing available was an impulse. Stupid? Not to me.

Now what did you gain from not using that imp? If you would of used it you wouldn't of been supporting smart parts.. Not buying a smart parts product is one thing, and legit.. But refusing to use a SP gun doesn't make any sense..

And I love matrices.. But I am getting a shocker over a matrix.. Number one reason being the wieght.. I hate how much the matrix weighs it is hard to snap shoot with my opposite hand and with a halo/tank sometimes even with my normal hand when I want to be quick about it.. Trix's are great guns.. But as it stands now I would rather have a gun that is less then half the weight with a similar design for the same price.. I don't care if i'm supporting them or not.. They will get money either way of royalties from other markers now and such.. Plus i'm not just going to refuse to buy a marker I want because I don't like what some guy is doing.. Fact is they were smart to do it.. I'm not saying i'm behind it.. But they did do it... And AKA guns are great and all.. But there are still other guns almost as good.. Like a Trix with an evolve bolt kit..

[breg]

Finally, a thread about this subject that hasn't been torn to shreds. (Aside from a few jokes)

I can't say that I agree with Smart Parts on this action, but i understand it. Face it, you are in business to make money, bottom line. And, that is what they are doing. They are making more and more money.
Anyone who tells you that they don't work to make money is in the worng line of business. I'm not saying that money is the most important thing, but for most folks it is up there near the top.
And the thing is, for most companies, it will cost them less (by this I mean lost sales due to rising marker prices) to just settle and pay the royalities than to fight it out in court. Honestly, I think I would have to do the same thing if I was in the position owner of a major paintball marker manufacutring corporation. I hate to say it, and I feel so dirty doing so, but it would be the best move for the future of my (imagined) corporation.
The other thing that tires me is the bashing of people who buy SP products. That get on my nerves really quick. Face it, if you buy from a company that setteled with SP to keep making guns, then you are supporting SP. And, how is that different than supporting them directly? Just lay off the constant flaming and say some thing nice or keep your freaking mouth shut. We all know why we are mad at SP; so why in hell do you keep beating a dead horse? Just let it go, and kepp your mouth shut.
I mean, personally, I don't like the 03 Shockers much, but it has little to do with SP. I just don't like how much they look like 'Mags. That and the few that I have seen up close had something wrong with them. First impressions, you know?
Don't get me wrong, I just as mad at SP as the next person, but I don't think that flaming anyone for buying something that they like is going to change much of anything.

(end rant in 3, 2, 1 rant ended)

[Dryden]

I'm sorry, but this whole SP/patent issue is a wash. Certainly, most anyone who is current with industry trends is aware of the SP/patent issue, but the ethics of how they obtained the patent, their methods of enforcement, and the effect on the industry affects about 1% of paintballers who take the field on any given weekend.

This might ruffle a few feathers, but AO represents less than 1% of the sport, as do pbnation and others. The majority of people who play - and that means > 99% - don't know, don't care, and don't waste their time whining about it on Internet forums.

SP has - through whatever channel - aquired a patent on electronically assisted trigger technology, and they have chosen to enforce it. God forbid that a patent should actually do what it is designed to do, encourage others who compete in a given market to innovate.

The end result is this: One company (AGD) has chosen to meet SP's patents head-on and found ways to innovate and work around them (Level 10, ULT, hAir Trigger), most others have succumbed to licensing the SP technology, which ultimately affects few who play.

Weekend Warriors - as it were, - myself included, couldn't care less. You can waste your $1,000+ on your electronically assisted marker-of-the-week (or is that marker-of-the-weak?) for all I care, I'll still bunker your butt with my MiniMag.

The real problem with the entire SP patent is that the purpose of the patent is towards a direction that few people want anyhow. Who the hell cares if you can shoot faster than 8 or 10 bps? Yeah, sure, it's impressive to post on your website in .mpg format and to show your friends at the field, but if you still can't score an elimination even with the help of a solenoid, I doubt any high-ROF assisted marker is going to help you. Few people care, and it's only a matter of time until such markers are hated out of existence, or regulated out of existence by either tournament organizers, the goverment, or anyone who still has concerns for the safety of the people who play the sport.

[CoolHand]

What irritates me the most about the whole deal, is not that SP is enforcing patents that they hold, but the utter stupidity of the US Patent Office in granting the damned thing in the first place.

Wanna patent the design of the Shocker? Fine. Done that in 1996 . . . . but wait, there's a typo on page 6. Gonna have to fix that . . . . need an extention for corrections. Fixed that one, but found another on page 8. . . . need another extention. Etc. . . .

Now, this whole time, people are building, adapting, and generally integrating electronics into their marker designs.

Now SP is in a great possition. So they tack on about 25 new definintions of their design's "prefered embodiment", fix the last typo, and BAM, you've got a patent that covers every state of the art design out there, but with a 1996 filing date. As they say in the Guiness Draft commercials - "Brilliant!"

Sneeky? Certainly. Underhanded? Of Course. Should have been caught by the choad that the patent office. Damn Straight!

Not to mention the questions of prior art, or even the fact that it impeades technology.

This mess was instigated by Smart Parts, but the real blame, and most of the hate should be directed at the lax standards of the US Patent office. As with so many parts of our government, it started out as a wonderful way to help people, but has since turned into a bloated, useless vestage that causes more problems than it solves.

Do I have a better solution? Nope. Wish I did.

But I can point out that something is amiss, in the hope of finding a cure.

[bunkermaster10]

Originally posted by Glickman
ijust alone it weighs 4.5 lbs. with a tank and empty hopper, 7 lbs.

:eek: , thats heavy stuff right there.

Up for a good going thread so far...

[Lee]

coolhand said "choad" lol. i thought i was the only one that still said that.

buisness decision. pure and simple.

you get other companies to make money for you.

that negates you're over head. ie: no employee costs (taxes, insurance, benefits), no overhead as in materials, machinery and it's maintenance.

no utility payments, buisness insurance or hidden costs that come with everything modern man attempts.

no marketing costs on out of house manufactured merchandise.

no research and developement costs.

no tech support, warentee or repair related costs on out of house produced items.

i'm sure theres more, but basically, after the layout of money to the lawyers which will be pretty much the only expense sp incurs from this, they will most likely make thier profit base as though the were producing each marker without outlaying any capitol other than associated fees to enforce the patent.

so, my point is that they get the money without the overhead. someone else works for and pays them to do it.

"protection" money now that i think of it that way. la cosa nostra.....

[Glickman]

Originally posted by Digits



And I love matrices.. But I am getting a shocker over a matrix.. Number one reason being the wieght.. I hate how much the matrix weighs it is hard to snap shoot with my opposite hand and with a halo/tank sometimes even with my normal hand when I want to be quick about it..

My man!!! exactly how i feel. also, diving to the snake on the break while playing semi-pro back players isnt very easy. ive never been able to snap shoot well, and i realized why.. my gun weighs 10 pounds.. i try imaginary snapping with the shocker, wow, i can snap.

Yea their great guns, but even if the dead air chamber was milled off it would still weigh 3.5 lbs (just the gun), which is still almost 2 times more than the shocker.


Originally posted by CoolHand
What irritates me the most about the whole deal, is not that SP is enforcing patents that they hold, but the utter stupidity of the US Patent Office in granting the damned thing in the first place.



Three people worked in the patent office, and in smart parts, there was thought to have been a conspiracy, but nothing was proven or further persued. And thats america for you.

[bryceeden]

Originally posted by Digits


Well I think AKA is just finishing off there orders.. I don't think there taking anymore..

But yes ICD is still going.. Although there prices have inflated a little.

ICD is also using much better quality parts this year, I think that is why the price went up not because of SP.

[FutureMagOwner]

Originally posted by Digits
So we'll look at it this way.. With AKA and ICD gone lets see who's left..

Mac Dev - Out of country, can't really touch them
WDP - Out of country
AGD E - out of country
Smart Parts - I don't think they'd sue themselves..
Dye - I think they made a deal with sp (correct me if i'm wrong)
WGP - Who knows what's going on here..
Timmies - I don't know this one either.. It doesn't look like there stopping any time soon.



i skimmed through this thread but i didnt see anyone else say this but:

Mac Dev- can still touch em, they sell in america too
WDP- are touching them right now, note above
AGD-E- cant touch em since they dont sell in america
Dye- correct :)
WGP- also unknown, my guess is if wgp doesnt plan on signing, sp is saving them for last since they would most likely put up the best fight
Bob Long- basically is nps and nps signed with smart parts like dye did
and in addition theres:
AKA- who got owned
Planet- just signed
ICD- basically owned/signed

like i said from the first day, its not a problem of smart parts defending its patent its the fact they have it in the first place thats wrong. i remember someone mentioned that the gardners were patent lawyers and got caught in the past for a scam, is that true?

[RetroEclipseMan]

Originally posted by breg
The other thing that tires me is the bashing of people who buy SP products. That get on my nerves really quick. Face it, if you buy from a company that setteled with SP to keep making guns, then you are supporting SP. And, how is that different than supporting them directly? Just lay off the constant flaming and say some thing nice or keep your freaking mouth shut. We all know why we are mad at SP; so why in hell do you keep beating a dead horse? Just let it go, and kepp your mouth shut.


Couldn't agree with you more man.

Like Coolhand already I am more angry at the Patent Office for actually accepting SP's patent. Sure, we all know it is just flat out ethically wrong but are they really doing anything illegal? I mean sure the patent is outrageous but there obviously was someone that overlooked it when it was going through the whole acceptance process which allowed SP to obtain and shouldn't they be the ones to blame? SP is just doing what they have basically gained the right to do, to enforce their patent, whether it is ethical or not.

As far as them stopping the advancement of the sport I think it's bogus really. My opinion is that it may move it in a better direction. Maybe DW's HairTriggerMod will push more companies to look in the mechanical direction since we've already seen that a mechanical marker can achiece high rates of fire and that system can only be improved upon if more companies decide to move into that direction.

I just don't see the point in worrying about it so much when there is nothing we can really do. I mean, no matter how much we say we hate SP or how much we should boycott them they're still going to continue to enforce this patent and I don't see them stopping until one of the bigger companies actually steps into the ring with them and actually challenges them. Flame me or not I'm still gonna keep using my maxflow (the 3rd one I've owned) and hopefully this whole problem will be resolved.

[tony3]

Some of the top people over at SP are patent lawyer and clerks or whatever, but they already have a foot in the U.S. patent office, the sad thing is no one will ever stop SP just because it would be cheaper to sign, then go to court, fight them, and win. I could really care less all together, it doesn't effect me at all.

[mikebridge]

yah, my dissatisfaction with the current fiasco is smart parts willing and intentional manipulation and abuse of the current patent system in order to stifle (or profit from) their competition in the marketplace.

[Ratzo]

What really annoys me about the SmartParts patents is that they let a whole industry grow with the electronics and then desided to enforce their patent.
If they were so conserned about the patent then they should have enforced it right away when the next electro came out.
But it seems that they could not have done that back then because thier patent was not broad enough to do so.
So they tweak and tweaked until they could go after everyone in the industry.
It's a rotten thing for them to have done but unfotunatly we now have to deal with it.

[Ken]

Hating smart parts isn't neccesarily the ''Cool'' thing to do, it's an opinon, and if you're going to complain about that, think about this, we're entitled to our own opinons, and it's such a good idea , that they just might make an ammendment regarding it.

While I'm talking about opinions, I might as well add my own, Do you think there is a reason why smart parts is patenting their equipment opposed to say, tippmann and the ASA, Tom Kaye and the Mask etc... It's because they have a ceartin contract to fullfill, opposed to say, AGD, ICD, etc... If this contract isn't fullfilled they go kerplunk, so that makes them want to eliminate the main competition for their crappy guns, ICD's Bushy for instance.

My question is , why did you make this? Are you trying to repent for buying a smart parts marker? I'm not saying that you should dump your guns and join the bandwagon of, '' I hate smart parts.'' , Unless you're a hypocrite, my point is , is that I'm never going to buy any smart parts product, acknowledge any smart parts product or give information about a smart parts product in my days, and I can care less if you do.

After a years of bureaucratic drudgery , they broadend their patent to a microswitch and then to a solenoid, because of the aforementioned contract they had to fullfill.

Why you might ask? Why did I write this post trashing smart parts and what I feel about them? Where am I going with this? Why? Because I'm entitled to my own opinon and you can follow too if you wish.

[DeeEight]

Originally posted by joey d
I dont think people really understand what is going on here. Smart Parts is enforcing a patent that they hold. end of story.

A patent acquired thru manipulations of loopholes in the US Patent Act, that allows revision patents to change the original wording, and sneak in broad/generic patents which if originally filed as such, would be rejected. They did this, BECAUSE they tried to patent the concept of electronic paintball guns already, and a patent examiner rejected it as being just that, too broad.

[GT]

Originally posted by FutureMagOwner

WDP- are touching them right now, note above
WGP- also unknown, my guess is if wgp doesnt plan on signing, sp is saving them for last since they would most likely put up the best fight
Planet- just signed


WGP amd planet are in bed with each other via the e blade. so consider WGP as owned...

Notice how WDP is droping stock like you wouldnt believe? MY bet is that they already had a bunch of Fly 4's, whatever there new gun is called, in the que when all of this funny buisness started. it acclerated thier time table and I can gurantee that WDP's new line will be on sale in 6 months. Anyone else ever notice how frequent new Angels became in the last 2 years and how quickly they went on sale?

at this point the companies that can adapt quickly are those who will survive, those he cant will perish. Honestly there was, w/o the SP event, going to be a weed out of these types of companies in the next few years.

[DeeEight]

Originally posted by FutureMagOwner


wrong. i remember someone mentioned that the gardners were patent lawyers and got caught in the past for a scam, is that true?

They were convicted in federal court of pennsylvania for a telemarketing scam involving invention and patent fraud, selling basically, do-it-yourself patent filing kits, and so forth.

[Glickman]

Originally posted by Ratzo
What really annoys me about the SmartParts patents is that they let a whole industry grow with the electronics and then desided to enforce their patent.


its called smart businessing.....

dont complaing because they used their idea to the fullest extent, its the same in every other situation, if u had a plan/idea/wahtever, you would want to use it to the fullest extend too.


and im not saying that your not entitled to your opinions, of course you are, but im just pointing out (it doesnt really apply here too much anyway) that alot of people just hate sp cause alot of other people do.

[68magOwner]

what i really dont like is people who look down on people just because they own SP stuff. Normaly at my field i get several ppl asking to shoot my imp every time i go. But then there are the people who are like "your a ***, you shoot a SP marker" OK, first off i have NEVER bought ANYTHING from sp, did someone have to initially buy the mrker for me to have it? yea, but i raded for it, so i dont see how im "supporting the nazi's" also, do i disaree with sp's so called "ethics" most definately, but they still make quality stuff, and i still think my imp out performs almost everything else ive shot (definatley anything else ive perdonally owned). If i was financially able to be shooting something else of eqaual caliber just ecause my marker was manufactured by sp? posibly, but i am not able, and dont feel i should be discriminated against just because i cant afford a different marker worth using. :(

edit-please excuse my spelling, im on my laptop anf some of the keys dont work/jam

[JT2002]

Originally posted by Glickman


its called smart businessing.....

dont complaing because they used their idea to the fullest extent, its the same in every other situation, if u had a plan/idea/wahtever, you would want to use it to the fullest extend too.


their idea? so that invented ON THEIR OWN the FIRST electro gun ever? and are just protecting it right? i think not. idk where teh heck u ever got the idea that they actually invented the 1st electro. get ur facts straight, the electronics in a marker wasnt their idea, the shocker was. then they sneakily shove the designg of general electronics into the patent, cmon, did SP B!tchslap u too? :rolleyes: ;) :D :D :D :D :D :)

[Glickman]

Originally posted by JT2002


their idea? so that invented ON THEIR OWN the FIRST electro gun ever? and are just protecting it right? i think not. idk where teh heck u ever got the idea that they actually invented the 1st electro. get ur facts straight, the electronics in a marker wasnt their idea, the shocker was. then they sneakily shove the designg of general electronics into the patent, cmon, did SP B!tchslap u too? :rolleyes: ;) :D :D :D :D :D :)

dude, their idea as in to buy the patent and further the technology involved in the guns.....

i never seem to be specific enuf....
and no, they havent, but ive threatened to bunker the president of pmi with my barrel up his @ss if he didnt fix the problem (long story, http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=132360&highlight=gorilla) hes a rather rude guy

[yeahthatsme]

we actually cant blame smart parts for the xmag, because they had little/nothing to do with it. the xmag is no longer in production because agd europe(they mill the xmag bodies) has decided to become the european distributor for national paintball supply, so they have put xmag bodies on the back burner, so tom kaye decided to stop making them. the emag is no longer made because tom has decided its an obsolete design and will begin working on a new design after the smart parts issue has settled a bit. until then i believe he is working on making mechanical mags AMAZING. so thers actually a bit of something to be happy about from this whole thing with smart parts, mags will thrive because people will begin to focus on mechanical guns a bit more, maybe.


besides AKA no longer producing guns(they were given a choice, that was their decision) Smart Parts has only caused a slight raise in ICD prices, and signed deals with DYE and National Paintball Supply. i have yet to see the industry shattering law suits, and the "monopolizing" efforts of smart parts that everybody predicted at the beginning of all this.

[yeahthatsme]

Originally posted by Glickman


its called smart businessing.....

dont complaing because they used their idea to the fullest extent, its the same in every other situation, if u had a plan/idea/wahtever, you would want to use it to the fullest extend too.


and im not saying that your not entitled to your opinions, of course you are, but im just pointing out (it doesnt really apply here too much anyway) that alot of people just hate sp cause alot of other people do.


the fact is that they DIDNT use it to the fullest effect till about 8 months ago, when they broadened their shocker patent to cover the use of electronics in the gun, therefore making all the electro pneumatic guns on the market today infringements on their patent. they also didnt have the first e-gun, the navy made one way back in the 80's, i believe.

[JT2002]

Originally posted by Glickman


dude, their idea as in to buy the patent and further the technology involved in the guns.....


please buddy tell me, in what oblivious way did sp manage to "further the technology" of a paintball marker? LMAO :p :rolleyes: ;) :D :D :D

[riooso]

I like everyone else would like to make a mature, objective observation. SP has a couple of people that happen to be lawyers in patent law. They grow up in America and obviously have some gifts that are afforded to a precious few in this harsh globe that we live on. These clowns make a mockery of the system because they "can". The cynicism of our young citizens is fortified and the cycle continues. I will not support people who knowingly engage in immoral or unethical behavior. “Tipping at windmills” some would say but I know the power of doing the right thing. You would be surprised how the cockroaches scramble for the dark when the light is shown upon them. You can make a difference, if only being know as a stand up person. I play a mean game of paintball and have the respect of the guys that I play with. So do the right thing and “Pay it forward” you will be surprised at what life has to offer. You know what? Life is grand with good honest people around you.


R

[Steelrat]

I love the people who say that SP is fine because they are just using good business sense. You know those health insurance companies that fight against providing treatment for a kid with cancer? I read about crap like that all the time, and in fact know someone who died of cancer because their insurance company fought against providing the treatment. Guess what? Thats "good business sense" too. Anything for a buck, right?

I could give a crap what the rest of the world does. I, for one, will not buy, own, or use ANY smart parts product. Screw them and their greed.

[White_Noise]

ok...where to start:

1. the patents that SP has are illegal: they both impede technology and ignore prior art

2. the gardner brothers are patent attorneys and have gotten in trouble about patents before

3. the only time i have used a sp marker was when my cocker wasnt working and i borrowed a teammates imp for a practice.

4. shockers are some of the most inefficient markers: kevin bredthaurer drops 20 pods in the smoked video with his 88/4500, but told me in an email he gets only 10 with the shocker

5. the designs for the shocker, freak, and impulse were not originally made by sp, but were stolen from smaller companys

6. SP holds worldwide patents on the shocker, therefore, no one is safe from their lawsuits.

7. my 2 favorite companys in paintball(agd and aka) no longer make electronic markers(though agd has not officially stated that their decision to stop making e/xmags was due to sp. in fact, the halt on xmags is due to the price to get the bodys made)

8. Business ethics: youre not supposed to put a halt on the market youre in. you want to work with the other companys in your market inorder to make the market bigger.

9. other companys have forgone patenting their markers/products inorder to promote the growth of the sport. why does sp have to not follow suit and disrupt the entire industry? if it is good business sense to patent everything, then paintball would be owned by one man(forget his name right now), but he knew that inorder to promote the sport, more companys would be needed to expand the market.

10. kingman/Be/Daisy/K2 is the only company that has the $$$$$$ to stand up to SP, if they decide to fight sp(i hope they do) then they can win in court and stop this nonsense

^thats what ive got....may come up with more later, will add it on if i do

[tyrion2323]

My dislike of Smart Parts actually happened quite a bit before the patent-deal.

- I was watching some All American videos, and I saw how unbecoming their behavior was. They would swear, throw their markers and act belligerently. I cannot respect a company who's factory team behaves like this.

- The patent thing has further decreased my respect for Smart Parts. They are using a patent of questionable origins to enforce a restriction of a general idea. They didn't patent the Shocker; they patended the electronic market.

I understand that some people see this in an ideological manner - that they enforced their patent, end of story. I don't see it as such. Here we have two lawyers (convicted felons) who waited almost 10 years to enforce a patent once they decided that the market was "ripe for the taking."

Had they enforced the patent years ago when the other electros had just begun manufacturing, I would have had less qualms with the enforcement.

[Dryden]

Originally posted by mag/cocker lover
2. the gardner brothers are patent attorneys and have gotten in trouble about patents beforeNo, that's not accurate. This is another half-truth that got started somewhere, and is perpetuated by the gossip mongering Internet paintball community. Stop parroting other people's wrong facts!

Adam Gardner was mentioned in passing, as an acquaintence to George Davison III, whose "invention submission" firm, Davison & Associates, was charged with fraud by the Federal Trade Commission.

Davison's firm claimed, that for $790, they would perform "quality research" regarding a customer's invention, including legal protection, technical feasibility, and marketability. For only $8,450 - $12,450 more, Davison & Associates would help the client market their product and introduce it to an industry.

The sham was found to be that the marketing assistance amounted to about a dozen cold call solicitations a quarter to companies, which probably wouldn't have been receptive to an invention even if it was the next big thing (tm).

Adam Gardner, again, was not a defendant in the suit, and Bill Gardner was never even named. Adam apparently was friends with George Davison, and had acted as a go-between between the firm and interested parties (other companies Adam Gardner had financial interests in). His position was never stated to be as a patent attorney, nor was he ever mentioned to be an employee. In fact, the summary names Adam as an officer for Smart Parts, as well as two other companies - Heritage Gifts and Easy Pipe Lifter, Inc. Adam was never anything more, as far as the FTC could ever determine, than a client. Adam licensed patents from Davison, and failed to sell what were ultimately bad products to begin with.

It is obvious that Adam represented Smart Parts for any inventions paintball related that passed through Davison's office - though this is hardly criminal. In fact, this would prove to be the rare exception to Davison's firm doing what it actually promised clients it would do.

EDIT: Adjusted to include the names of the other two businesses Adam Gardner licensed patents for.

[Glickman]

I was watching some All American videos, and I saw how unbecoming their behavior was. They would swear, throw their markers and act belligerently. I cannot respect a company who's factory team behaves like this.
lol, how many paintball tournies have you watched? this hapends all the time, and your just proving that your stereotypic... your saying because one or a few act badly, that their all bad. Go watch Kapp's Factory team, dont stereotype...





Originally posted by mag/cocker lover


8. Business ethics: youre not supposed to put a halt on the market youre in. you want to work with the other companys in your market inorder to make the market bigger.

\
what are you talking about...
1. SP didnt put a halt on the market, 2 series of guns were taken away, (to be replaced by their '04 versions' for now) I am a little angery that they went after AKA, but lets face it, ICD was netting under a million a year, a very very small number for a paintball gun manufacturer. And even still, they are not gone, their back with a new gun, the freestyle, which is actually a decent gun.

2. Business ethics? lol oxymoron. This is america, and thusly, profits, and sometimes success overrules ethics.
-------------------
So if ur unhappy, in 14 years, make the owners of SP "dissapear" and get the patent urself...

My entire Gun collection, and every dollar we get from sponsors, says you would not focus on ethics if u were in the same place.

[Shykicker]

More consumer advocacy from yours truely:

The main problem I see with the SP issue is this: They patented their electronic marker setups, which is fine. The original wording of their patents described only the guns they produced and had nothing to do with other electros currently on the market. This is all good and well. But then, once electros are a huge market, they extended their patent to include, let's see... every electro marker on the market. This isn't in keeping with the purpose of patent extensions, which is: to correct vague or missleading articles of the original patents. If you think that the original patent was meant to pertain to all electro markers, then they are perfectly within their rights. However, it is obvious that it wasn't. They basically used it as a ruse to change their patent to mean something completely diffirent from it's original idea, and meanwhile maintain it's original holding date.

The merrits of the Gardner's previous transgressions come down to this: they are professional scam artists, not responsible business advocates. Unless the FTC is completely off their mark.

For more information on that, do not pass go, procede directly to: http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/07/davisb~1.htm

Nothing in that brief leads me to believe that the Gardner's have any interest other than padding their pockets with massive bills.

The moral implications have little or nothing to do with the fact that SP had purchased the original patent and profitted off of it. That was perfectly within their rights. The problem becomes apparent with the modification of that patent to circumvent prior art. Does that make them good businessmen, or good scam artists? Not for me to decide, but it's obvious where I stand.

It all begs the question: If the original patent was meant to pertain to all electronic markers, why hadn't they been deffending their intellectual property in court?

Let me close with some Ralph Nader. This is not capitalism. This is corporate socialism.

[tyrion2323]

Glickman,

You started this thread as a "mature conversation" about Smart Parts. It seems like more of a place for you to defend your choice to buy a Shocker...

I put forth my opinion, which was certainly valid. I presented my case in a mature fashion. I did not insult anybody. You responded by calling me "stereotypic." Real mature :rolleyes:

It's not even worth trying to reiterate my point, as I'm sure that you'll just find another way to insult me. I'm sorry, but I just don't accept "Here in America, money overrules morality" as an acceptable response to criticism about a company's questionable ethics and poor sportmanship.

[shartley]

Shykicker- What you posted about has already been mentioned in this thread… and what you posted is misleading at best.


The merrits of the Gardner's previous transgressions come down to this: they are professional scam artists, not responsible business advocates. Unless the FTC is completely off their mark.

For more information on that, do not pass go, procede directly to: http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/07/davisb~1.htm

Nothing in that brief leads me to believe that the Gardner's have any interest other than padding their pockets with massive bills.

I actually WENT to that “brief” and guess what? The Gardners are not defendants. In fact, no action was even taken against the Gardner’s. Heck, after reading that, it looks like the Gardner’s were being used as well…..


(31)Adam Gardner is also an officer of Smart Parts, Inc., the licensee of inventions defendant George Davison claims to have invented himself. (PX 57)

AND… if you look at this…


(23)Defendants at times showed consumers a letter, dated November 4, 1991, and signed by Adam Gardner, which states in part that “[p]rior to working with Davison & Associates we spent countless hours and dollars with unrealistic inventors . . . .” (PX 13, Carter Attch. A at 4; PX 18, Ferdinandsen Attch. D at 6) The letter does not disclose the relationship between defendant George Davison and Gardner, and it suggests that Heritage Gifts had a long history of working with inventors. In fact, while it’s possible that Heritage existed for a time in an unincorporated form, it was not incorporated until May, 1991, (PX 54) after Ms. Arthur contracted with defendants. (PX 5, Arthur 1-2)

It is clear how the Gardners were involved… they (he) wrote an endorsement statement that is similar to statements made by slews of other companies for either their friends or businesses they had done business with or had something done by. Almost every statement of this type is misleading to a point, and marketing verbiage of claims and customer comments can often times be VERY misleading.

My point is that this case is NOT about the Gardners. It isn’t even about what the Gardners did. And your insinuation that the FTC has in some way claimed that the Gardners are professional scam artists is not only wrong, but is actually against the law itself. You may want to look up laws covering slander and libel.

From what I have seen, it looks like the Gardners will use any legal method at their disposal, to the point of bending (but not breaking) the rules and law, to further their business. This my friends is not illegal. We may not agree with some of the decisions they made, or things they did/do, but that is a far cry from them being crooks and scam artists.

The heart of their actions at this point is hinged upon their patent, which was GRANTED to them. And the solution to that issue is CLEAR and EASY. All it will take is an impartial and uninvolved 3rd party to file for the patent to be reviewed. This will take $10-$11,000 (I forget exactly how much), and has been discussed here on AO.. in a thread all of it’s own in fact.

But no one seems SO upset about this that they are willing to do anything more than complain about it on an internet forum, or not buy products from SP that they were never going to buy in the first place. The Garners played by the rules. If you don’t like the rules, have them changed. But the business world is NOT an easy place to be in, and while some companies do not use the rules to their fullest for various reasons, SOME do. Whether that is “moral” or not can be debated. But it does not make them criminals, nor out to ruin any given industry.

If you don’t know the rules of the game, don’t play. The business world is not like a paintball game. But on one aspect it IS the same… when someone “dead man’s walks” and tags out an opponent, some folks will claim they did an “immoral” act. ;)

[Glickman]

hehe i already have a topic for that.
im just saying, dont judge a whole company by its players. well all well know how, as much as we dont wanna admit it, alot of paintballers are rude, b!tchey, and so on, *cough* pbnation *cough* so just dont judge SP cause their factory players are illmannered ;)

[BennyD]

I think what everyone needs to understand here, and correct me if I'm wrong, but if Smart Parts is like most American companies, it is not ruled by the consumer (in this case, paint ball players), it (the company) is ruled by some suit wearing Harvard graduate executive who cares about nothing more than profits, and in some cases (but not this one), increasing value to their shareholders so he'll get re-elected as CEO again.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by 68magOwner
what i really dont like is people who look down on people just because they own SP stuff. Normaly at my field i get several ppl asking to shoot my imp every time i go. But then there are the people who are like "your a ***, you shoot a SP marker" OK, first off i have NEVER bought ANYTHING from sp, did someone have to initially buy the mrker for me to have it? yea, but i raded for it, so i dont see how im "supporting the nazi's"

Although I'm not a person that would hate another person just because of the marker they use, by using an Impulse, you *ARE* supporting SP. You play with the marker and other people think "Hey, he's doing good with that Impulse", so they decide to buy one. Yes, it's a roundabout way of looking at it, but you *ARE* supporting them.


Originally posted by Glickman
lol, how many paintball tournies have you watched? this hapends all the time, and your just proving that your stereotypic... your saying because one or a few act badly, that their all bad. Go watch Kapp's Factory team, dont stereotype...

I agree. The All Americans are a SP Factory team... they represent SP. The way they behave reflects on SP. He didn't say SP was the only team he disrespected either... he said he didn't respect AA.



Originally posted by Glickman
what are you talking about...
1. SP didnt put a halt on the market, 2 series of guns were taken away, (to be replaced by their '04 versions' for now)

No.. the Vikings and Excals are gone. Period. They are not being replaced by '04 versions, they are not coming back.


Originally posted by Glickman
I am a little angery that they went after AKA, but lets face it, ICD was netting under a million a year, a very very small number for a paintball gun manufacturer. And even still, they are not gone, their back with a new gun, the freestyle, which is actually a decent gun.

Netting under a million a year makes it OK to go after a company to suck more money out of them? Good point :rolleyes: Now you're trying to justify their actions. If ICD made 10 million a year you'd say "Well, they can take it, they're making 10m a year". If they made $1,000 you'd say "Well, they were going under anyway". It doesn't matter how much they were making, the point is SP went after them.


Originally posted by Glickman
2. Business ethics? lol oxymoron. This is america, and thusly, profits, and sometimes success overrules ethics.

Honestly, I just lost any respect I may have had for you. You're saying sometimes the money is worth it to knowingly do something wrong. So... if I take out a life insurance policy on my wife, have her killed then collect the insurance, it's possible it could be "right" because I profited from it? Does it happen? Unfortunately yes. Does it make right? No.


Originally posted by tyrion2323
You started this thread as a "mature conversation" about Smart Parts. It seems like more of a place for you to defend your choice to buy a Shocker...

I agree.


Originally posted by Glickman
hehe i already have a topic for that.
im just saying, dont judge a whole company by its players.

Why not? They're there to represent Smart Parts. Of course, we all know there's no better way to represent the company you work for than acting like an immature child.

[Lohman446]

I am not technically sound enough to discuss the validity of the patent, nor am I a lawyer. Based on what I have heard, the patent should have never been granted, but it was. Let me go forward and not argue that point.

What SP has done is turned a direction in paintball. All of the sudden design and innovation must be for yourself, not for the community. Good business, I could argue no, American business is poor often enough. However, even if it was good business.. I hate the fact that SP has turned paintball into business first, innovation second.

[Glickman]

Originally posted by FallNAngel

Honestly, I just lost any respect I may have had for you. You're saying sometimes the money is worth it to knowingly do something wrong. So... if I take out a life insurance policy on my wife, have her killed then collect the insurance, it's possible it could be "right" because I profited from it? Does it happen? Unfortunately yes. Does it make right? No.


wow....
Thats harsh..
You wanna defrost those words of yours? :)

Did i ever say that i thought that it was ok? no... im just saying that this happends in america... and your comparing the discontinuing of certain paintball guns and the loss of jobs to murder, and fraud.

Its a sporting goods company, not an Insurance Fraud Assassination ring..

and pretty much everything you guys are getting mad at me for, your implying that i think that what SP did was ok..

For the record, i think most of what they did was NOT ok...
I just think it happends, and we gotta go along with it.

-------------------
Also, if people "attack" the idea that im thinking about getting a shocker, then so be it, ill do my best to put my opinions and reasons for thus in the most organized way i can...

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by Glickman

For the record, i think most of what they did was NOT ok...
I just think it happends, and we gotta go along with it.


Don't view this as an attack. But why? Why do we have to go along with it? Why do we have to accept it and move on? What does SP make that is not made as well or better by someone else? I have seen too often people say this was wrong, but its done and its time to move on and basically act as if it did not happen. Personally not buying an SP product for me is a very very simple thing to do, I don't particularly like any of them in the first place (though if the quality control on the 03 Shocker was better it would be tempting). Maybe that makes be biased, I can say I am not going to buy an SP product in the future and that changes nothing for me.

[hitech]

Originally posted by shartley
...All it will take is an impartial and uninvolved 3rd party to file for the patent to be reviewed. This will take $10-$11,000 (I forget exactly how much), and has been discussed here on AO...

I don't believe that review process has become law yet. That is the big problem. It seems like it will be, but hasn't yet.

I believe "SP" is guilty of fraud. They purposely left out reference to the Navy patent, that they had included on previously failed attempts to get their patent updated. When they left it out it worked, they got the patent updated. While no one may be able to prove it, it is still fraud. :(

[Dryden]

Originally posted by shartley
All it will take is an impartial and uninvolved 3rd party to file for the patent to be reviewed. This will take $10-$11,000 (I forget exactly how much), and has been discussed here on AO.. in a thread all of it’s own in fact.
Originally posted by hitech
I don't believe that review process has become law yet. That is the big problem. It seems like it will be, but hasn't yet.

I believe "SP" is guilty of fraud. They purposely left out reference to the Navy patent, that they had included on previously failed attempts to get their patent updated. When they left it out it worked, they got the patent updated. While no one may be able to prove it, it is still fraud. :( Well, this is a little muddy. The proposition hitech is referring too is for expediting the review process and making it more affordable, but it is available. shartley, your fees are a bit high, unless you're including attorney fees and having everything in triplicate. ;)

There are two types of reexaminations that can be sent before the USPTO Board. An ex parte reexamination is $2,520.00 to file. ex parte means only one party. Or, in other words, you can file a motion for review, cite prior art, evidence, etc. as a third party, but once you do, you're cut out of the loop. SP's patent and application process will be reviewed, but you will not be present at any hearings and can not submit new evidence or present motions after the process has begun.

An inter partes reexamination is $8,800.00 to file. inter partes means between two parties. In this process, you get to bring your lawyers, guns and money - which ultimately costs significantly more than $8,800.00! :D

The problem however, is that you need to know you are going to win upon filing for a reexamination. You don't want to assist SP in validating their patent by approaching a reexam request with a maverick attitude.

Also, I would add that the widely cited "Navy Patent" is a military patent, evidently was created by service members stationed in the USA (which is significant) as opposed to a contractor or those serving abroad, was patented during war time ('71/'72 Vietnam - peace accords weren't signed until 1973) and is for a photocell operated device. So, given all the rediculous exemptions already afforded it by being a military device developed during a war (which brings to question whether civil prior art should have ever been allowed to be replicated on the Internet, no matter how mundane a device it might be), and the fact that SP's electronically assisted paintball patents qualify for a whole set of other exemptions thanks to clueless lawmakers (paid for by Microsoft) in the "digital age," the assumption that the Navy patent immediately invalidates SP's patents is tenuous at best.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Dryden
…the assumption that the Navy patent immediately invalidates SP's patents is tenuous at best.

I wasn't trying to say that the navy patent invalidates SP patent. I don't really know. However, they (SP) PURPOSELY left it out to get the patent updated. When they included a reference to it the update failed.

[Glickman]

the thing is, even if somehow we gathered $12,000, its not guarenteed to work. if you got a major company involved, who had the money to spend, then its possible, but its still gambling 12,000 dollars, and then what? besides getting the xmag back into the usa, and possibly getting AKA to bounce back, and possibly ICD, what else?

why not use that 12,000 and donate it to shatner's charity, or why not some other sort of charity, where it would benifit more people besides what i stated above.


it might just be me, but i havent seen any real changes in gun prices due to the royalties either, its possible the companies are just taking the blow for us.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by Glickman
Did i ever say that i thought that it was ok? no... im just saying that this happends in america... and your comparing the discontinuing of certain paintball guns and the loss of jobs to murder, and fraud.

Actually, yes, you did


Originally posted by Glickman
2. Business ethics? lol oxymoron. This is america, and thusly, profits, and sometimes success overrules ethics

That's you agreeing with it. Sucess does not overrule ethics, period. If you're saying it can overrule ethics, then you *are* agreeing with that statement. It doesn't matter if I'm comparing paintball to loss of jobs, murder and fraud... it doesn't make it any more *right* just because it's paintball... it's still *wrong*. What happens if ICD is eating the cost of the SP patent instead of adding it to their markers? Perhaps they have to lay off a worker or two to save a bit of money. What about those people? Oh, wait, I forgot... it's just paintball. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Glickman
and pretty much everything you guys are getting mad at me for, your implying that i think that what SP did was ok..

Perhaps it's just me (though I don't think so), it seems like all you're really doing is defending SP. You want a Shocker because you can imagine yourself snapshooting with one (just becuase I can imagine myself playing Pro at WC doesn't mean it's going to happen), you defend their factory team, despite how they act reflects on the company. You can't say "I think what SP did was wrong, but I'm going to support them" ... either you think what they did was wrong and not support them, or you don't think what they did was so bad and continue to buy their products.


Originally posted by Glickman
For the record, i think most of what they did was NOT ok...
I just think it happends, and we gotta go along with it.

No, actually we don't just have to go along with it. That's the whole point of trying to boycott SP products.

[shartley]

Originally posted by FallNAngel
It doesn't matter if I'm comparing paintball to loss of jobs, murder and fraud... it doesn't make it any more *right* just because it's paintball... it's still *wrong*. What happens if ICD is eating the cost of the SP patent instead of adding it to their markers? Perhaps they have to lay off a worker or two to save a bit of money. What about those people? Oh, wait, I forgot... it's just paintball. :rolleyes:
Actually, sorry to say this, but that is “business”. Ask AGD how many people they have had to let go in the past 3 years. Now ask them if any of this was caused by SP.

I will not get into any of the other issues.

[Dryden]

Originally posted by hitech
I wasn't trying to say that the navy patent invalidates SP patent. I don't really know. However, they (SP) PURPOSELY left it out to get the patent updated. When they included a reference to it the update failed. When? The removal of a reference isn't an indication of why an update failed, and I'd be completely surprised that such information would be available to the public.

Patents are abandoned, continued, rewritten, etc everyday. They have used dozens of references in their prior patent applications, as they're supposed to, and they've since removed a bunch of them, which they are permitted to do when filing for a CIP (Continuation In Part). Heck, in Shocker Patent 5881707 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=26&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=5881707&OS=5881707&RS=5881707), they referenced an AirGun Design's Patent, then removed it in Patent 6474326 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6474326.WKU.&OS=PN/6474326&RS=PN/6474326). The reference is for, presumably, Tom Kaye's (e.g. Thomas G Kotsiopoulos) Automag, which is (was?) Patent 5280778 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F5280778). So, between those two Shocker patent applications, both the Navy Patent and the Automag patent were dropped as references, not to mention one additional Tippmann patent.

Honestly, if you look at all the prior patents SP has applied for, the Shocker is a helluva lot closer to the Automag than it is to the Navy's 1000+ round, drum fed, belt driven, gear cranked contraption depicted in Patent 3695246 (http://www.icedillusions.com/US003695246.pdf).

[Glickman]

Originally posted by FallNAngel
No, actually we don't just have to go along with it. That's the whole point of trying to boycott SP products.

If im correct, SP gets a royalty on every electric gun sold, (minus a few exceptions) so then the only way to not support SP is to not buy a electronic gun. Yea, ur not supporting Sp as much as buying their own gun, but arent u still sorta supporting it?

[Dryden]

Originally posted by Glickman
If im correct, SP gets a royalty on every electric gun sold, (minus a few exceptions) so then the only way to not support SP is to not buy a electronic gun. Yea, ur not supporting Sp as much as buying their own gun, but arent u still sorta supporting it? Correct. Which is why the only marker you should buy is the all mechanical hAir Triggered RT Pro.

They should be available for backorder in 2005. :p

[Rigster_TBB]

Originally posted by shartley

But no one seems SO upset about this that they are willing to do anything more than complain about it on an internet forum, or not buy products from SP that they were never going to buy in the first place. The Garners played by the rules. If you don’t like the rules, have them changed. But the business world is NOT an easy place to be in, and while some companies do not use the rules to their fullest for various reasons, SOME do. Whether that is “moral” or not can be debated. But it does not make them criminals, nor out to ruin any given industry.

If you don’t know the rules of the game, don’t play. The business world is not like a paintball game. But on one aspect it IS the same… when someone “dead man’s walks” and tags out an opponent, some folks will claim they did an “immoral” act. ;)

Shartley, you are indeed a wise man... Keep up the great work...

Rigster...

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by shartley

Actually, sorry to say this, but that is “business”. Ask AGD how many people they have had to let go in the past 3 years. Now ask them if any of this was caused by SP.

I will not get into any of the other issues.

What does it matter if it was caused by SP? Does that somehow make it better? Those people still lost their jobs. The point I'm trying to make in all of this is "wrong is wrong" ... period. You can't say "well, it's wrong, but for paintball (which I don't think matters) it's ok". Money doesn't make a decision ethically right...to think so it's just plain stupid.

As far as supporting Smart Parts via purchasing markers from other companies... unfortunately, there's not a whole lot we can do. But you can boycott in other ways. You can choose not to purchase a MaxFlo system and instead buy a Conquest or X-Stream reg, buy a Scepter instead of the Freak. Ideally, it would be great not to support SP at all, but we all know it's just not going to be possible.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Dryden
When? The removal of a reference isn't an indication of why an update failed...

You are correct, it is not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Navy patent included an electronic firing mechanism. SP appears to claim they hold the patent on using electronics to fire a "paintgun". The Navy patent would be prior art. The reason for omitting it was, in my opinion, in the hope that it wouldn't be considered for prior art.

It seems pretty cut and dried to me. The Navy patent, even if an invalid patent, demonstrates prior art to the claim of inventing all electronic firing mechanisms. The specific one maybe, but not ALL of them.

[FallNAngel]

In response to what Shartley said, honestly, I wasn't going to buy SP products anyway (despite the fact that I already owned a MaxFlo). Is what they did illegal? That's not really for me to decide.. I'm not a lawyer or a judge. Do I think what they did was morally wrong? Yes. Sitting on a patent and purposefully not doing anything until everyone jumps on the electronic bandwagon then saying "Oh yea, we got a patent, you all owe us money" just doesn't sit right with me.

[shartley]

Originally posted by FallNAngel
What does it matter if it was caused by SP? Does that somehow make it better? Those people still lost their jobs. The point I'm trying to make in all of this is "wrong is wrong" ... period. You can't say "well, it's wrong, but for paintball (which I don't think matters) it's ok". Money doesn't make a decision ethically right...to think so it's just plain stupid.

Now stop reading into what I said… READ what I said.

Losing your job is not “better” or “worse” depending on WHY you lost it. And you are talking to the wrong man when it comes to losing jobs. I have lost more than one job because of cutbacks. And guess what? Cutbacks are caused by many reasons.

My point was that you can’t pin someone losing their job on SP (even more so when I have not even heard of it happening), as if that is the only reason people lose jobs in the paintball industry. Again, ask AGD how many people they let go in the last 3 years. And ask them if it had anything to do with SP. Also go research how many people lost jobs and even entire businesses because of NPS. Heck, why not go even further than that and find out how many paintball shops and fields have gone out of business in the past 5 years.

I think you will find that the business world is not the backyard pool…. It is an ocean. And not only had you better know how to swim, but you have to watch out for the sharks… who live there legally. Not every business is “nice”, nor are they required to be. And not being “nice” does not mean they are “wrong” or they broke any laws.

And acknowledging this fact does not mean I am myself a shark…… I am actually far from it.

So while I truly feel for ANYONE who loses their job, it happens all the time, and for many reasons. And so far (like I said) I have not seen where anyone lost their job because of SP anyways. In fact, I have not seen a lot of what some people claimed would happen.

[Glickman]

heh great analogy. but i still think SP may had indirectly cause a few layoffs, probably mostly in ICD tho.
And about that RT: sadly, ive yet to actually own a automag, for my tinkering, ive used cockers, but im walking away from cockers, and as soon as i pay off my new shocker, or dm4, im going to look into that ;)


Great Discussion Btw guys!

[White_Noise]

Originally posted by shartley

From what I have seen, it looks like the Gardners will use any legal method at their disposal, to the point of bending (but not breaking) the rules and law, to further their business. This my friends is not illegal. We may not agree with some of the decisions they made, or things they did/do, but that is a far cry from them being crooks and scam artists.




the problem is that theyre arent using legal methods, and are actually breaking the law. their patent breaks the law, therefore, enforcing said patent would be illegal. according to laws concerning patents, a patent cannot impede technology, or ignore prior art. the sp patent on the shocker does both of these. the navy had the first patent on an electronic paintball marker(sp's patent ignoring prior art.), and the patent impedes technology by not allowing other companys to work carry out their businesses as before.



edit:

btw, this thread has become neither nice, mature, nor intelligent. so the entire point of the thread has been lost.

[Dryden]

Originally posted by mag/cocker lover
according to laws concerning patents, a patent cannot impede technology, or ignore prior art.What exactly would patents be for then? Patents are explicitly offered to inventors as an incentive to invent. This principle dates all the way back to the founding of the United States, and is stated in no uncertain terms in Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution. It's even further elaborated upon in The Founders Constitution. I suggest you read exactly what Thomas Jefferson had in mind - see here (http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_8s12.html) - regarding patents nearly 200 years ago, where he outlines the difference between a physical invention and an intangible idea.

Second, I don't think SP's patents ignore prior art. It is explicitly permitted that a patent applicant may cite why their invention superceeds all prior art, and SP's patents are eloquently worded as such:

Finally, the present invention also provides a significant accuracy advantage over all prior art spring-loaded guns at all pneumatic operating pressures, due to the minimized recoil experienced after a shot is fired [...]

Hmm ... so if SP already has the patent on spiral-ported barrels, I suppose if they affix said spiral ported barrel to any marker, it is therefore more accurate? Actually, this might be an avenue for research. Back to subject though, I already outlined the futility in trying to cite the Navy's patent on their photocell operated paint flinging contraption as prior art. For crying out loud ... look at the picture. It more closely resembles a lawn-seeder than a modern paintball marker!!!

[White_Noise]

the navy's invention is a device that uses paintballs as projectiles, and therefore is a paintball marker(which is what the shocker is called in it's patent) also note that for the revision that got accepted, they left out the fact about the navy's patent.

patents are made to protect inventions, but not stop others from inventing other devices nor to ignore the inventions made prior to said invention.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by Dryden
Second, I don't think SP's patents ignore prior art. It is explicitly permitted that a patent applicant may cite why their invention superceeds all prior art, and SP's patents are eloquently worded as such:

Finally, the present invention also provides a significant accuracy advantage over all prior art spring-loaded guns at all pneumatic operating pressures, due to the minimized recoil experienced after a shot is fired [...]

What does that have to do with prior art and the navy's electronic (non spring-loaded) gun?

[Dryden]

Originally posted by FallNAngel
What does that have to do with prior art and the navy's electronic (non spring-loaded) gun? Nothing specifically. I'm just pointing out that patent applicants actually use the very term prior art in their applications all the time. SP's patent continues with a whole slew of provisions:

Accordingly, it is an object of the present invention to provide a projectile launching device that uses only pneumatic force to propel a projectile.

It is also an object of the present invention to provide a projectile launching device for use in the recreational and professional sport of paintball that uses only pneumatic force to propel the paintball.

It is also an object of the present invention to provide a projectile launching device which can be aimed and fired with greater accuracy than all types of spring-loaded guns at all pneumatic operating pressures.

It is also an object of the present invention to provide a projectile launching device for use in the recreational and professional sport of paintball which can be aimed and fired with greater accuracy than existing paintball guns at low pneumatic operating pressures.

It is also an object of the present invention to provide a projectile launching device that uses electro-pneumatic control to release the pneumatic force that propels the projectile.

It is also an object of the present invention to provide a projectile launching device for use in the recreational and professional sport of paintball that uses electro-pneumatic control to release the pneumatic force that propels the projectile.

The repetition of the term "professional sport of paintball" is really quite slick. Was the Navy's device really a "paintball gun?" Did it operate at "low pneumatic operating pressures?"

Look, as I mentioned in my very first post near the beginning of this thread, I'm not defending Smart Parts per se. I'm not even sympathetic to Smart Part's plight, they've brought this fully on themselves - including adding insult to injury with their recent print ads regarding their patent on "winning."

I'm just simply annoyed by the SP hate, and hope to help illustate that overriding SP's electro-patent isn't as clear-cut as walking into a court room and waving a few patents from the 1970's above your head. Heck, you'd still have to even get them admitted without objection from SP attorneys on the grounds of hearsay.

[Dern]

I think that there are many people that need to know what is legally required to acquire a patent, what SPECIFIC aspects of electronic markers SP patented, what SPECIFIC proof SP has/used in comparison to other companies that legally justified the grant of the patent, and perhaps ALL of the REAL/TRUE reasons for SP attaining more patents. Perhaps SP did it to get money from royalties from other companies, or maybe they did it as a DEFENSIVE measure? I'm not in favor of SP, but I think there is still too much improperly justified slamming of SP in this thread still ( many people justify it well, others repeat gossip and warped information that is basically myth more than fact)

If SP didn't patent such and such thing, who is to say that NO OTHER COMPANY wouldn't do it (or even, wasn't trying to gain patents at the same time)? AKA or ICD could have done it, or at least attempted it. Would so many people then yell and scream at either of those companies for doing it? What if (this is extremely hypothetical) AGD attempted to patent these sort of things in the paintball industry? Just some food for thought, it's really annoying when I see ungrounded reason after reason. When I talk about specific proof, I'm talking about what Shartley did ( thanks, by the way).

- Dern

[The Action Figure]

I was at first strongly against sp for what they did, But now I realize they havent affected paintball in terribly negitive ways. I am in the process of buying a bushy and the prices arent that bad