Consumer Survey #2: HFD (Once Again, Sorry AGD :P)

[OysterBoy]

Ok, this is the second survey in regards to our concept gun, the 'derringer' (PATENT PENDING). Original Survey: http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=130672

Finally, a flash-mockup of the gun...but, no server :( Anyone willing to provide a SECURE server that i could upload a picture onto?

Questions:
1) If a gun were incredibly tight, with a working backspin feature BUT, had a ROF of about 10 BPS max, would you be interested?

2) If same gun were tight, with no backspin feature, and a relatively decent ROF, would you be interested?

3) If said gun were cocker threaded, but with a slightly higher feed neck then average (think BKO/B2K3, Only a little higher) would you be interested?

4) If said gun were incapable of being electronically fired (ATM), and is not reccomended to be opened up, would you be interested?

5) If said gun had a version, to be used with halos, Q-Loaders, and Warps only, and were tourney ILLEGAL, but delivered insane ROF (with sub-par efficiency; think classic automag/shocker, only a little worse) would you be interested?

6) If gun had the specs of those listed in Q1, and were priced in the area of an E-Blade, or less (later on) would you be interested?


Thank you,
HFD
Alex Hnatiuk

EDIT:

PICTURE (Drawing)
http://members.rogers.com/headfirstdesigns/Derringer.jpg

[Koosh]

So you expect people to buy an expensive, slow, ineffecient gun that you can't take apart, and isn't tourney legal?

Good luck...

[OysterBoy]

Thats nice of you to assume, but thats incorrect.

The questions were to be taken seperatley, hence the numbering.. Its called a survey, thats how you learn things.

[barrel break]

Questions:
1) If a gun were incredibly tight, with a working backspin feature BUT, had a ROF of about 10 BPS max, would you be interested? tough question, but, no, the reason people want a tight gun is for speedball, and speedball players generally want high ROF, backspin (distance) is not normally a deciding factor due to the small size of todays fields

2) If same gun were tight, with no backspin feature, and a relatively decent ROF, would you be interested? probably

3) If said gun were cocker threaded, but with a slightly higher feed neck then average (think BKO/B2K3, Only a little higher) would you be interested? no, high feed neck=bad

4) If said gun were incapable of being electronically fired (ATM), and is not reccomended to be opened up, would you be interested? not sure what the question means

5) If said gun had a version, to be used with halos, Q-Loaders, and Warps only, and were tourney ILLEGAL, but delivered insane ROF (with sub-par efficiency; think classic automag/shocker, only a little worse) would you be interested? no, tourney illegal usually translates to field illegal in these cases

6) If gun had the specs of those listed in Q1, and were priced in the area of an E-Blade, or less (later on) would you be interested? slightly if even, yes if less

[-=Squid=-]

Im sorry, but having seen the designs for this gun, I just dont think its going to be possible to build a functioning unit.

Say you DO manage that part, the trigger pull will still be EXTREMELY heavy. When I say extremely heavy, im talking like having to strain yourself to pull it once.

[OysterBoy]

As stated a while ago, you havent seen the gun designs, at least not the new ones. The old designs were flawed, but we've worked up a new way which we feel is much better, and should not have any pull-weight problems.

[personman]

Questions:
1) Maybe, not really though.

2) Moreso than #1

3) Ehhh High feednecks are a neg.

4) What?!?!? I live to take apart guns. If I cant take it apart, count me out. :D

5) Wait, a gun thats illigal with an insane ROF? What's the point? Why dont you just take a spyder and remove the sear and cock it back and let it fly? :p

6) Uh, no, sorry.

[OysterBoy]

Finally, a mockup picture..

Damnit Squid, Im not doing a whiteboard ever again.. :eek: :D

http://members.rogers.com/headfirstdesigns/Derringer.jpg

[barrel break]

I'm sorry, but that is the epitome of ugliness

[-=Squid=-]

Finally, a mockup picture..

Damnit Squid, Im not doing a whiteboard ever again.. :eek: :D

http://members.rogers.com/headfirstdesigns/Derringer.jpgWhy no more whiteboard with me? :D

Either way, the problems I saw with the old design still seem like problems to me. I just dont see this getting off the ground.

[steveo356]

1 maybe if its still extremly light cuz for woods ball i like my guns small jus like speed ball u can hide in smaller things
2 rof isn't the most important thing which some peopel dont understand for me the feel of it would be important here.
3 i dun like realy high feed necks i dun mind a short neck n a forced hopper tho (halo)
4 doesn't realy bother me me plus electrics n board n stuff equal realy confused ill leave it to the pros here
5 hmm i dun like to drain my pockets on backyard guns so nope
6 maybe if it looks good and is extremyl reliable (like a dream backup) i might pick one up

[OysterBoy]

I'm sorry, but that is the epitome of ugliness

lol. And the classic mag was a supermodel in bikini? hehe.

And I somewhat agree, but that is a MOCKUP, meaning the basics. And ideas of how it could look nicer? Not you, Squid, lol.

As for previous design flaws, they've been fixed. The only reason Squid didn't see the changes is because he was too busy drawing human fallices (sp?) on the whiteboard haha.

[Cryer]

answers:
1) No. Backspin is pointless. By the time the ball reaches the target, he will have had plaenty of time to move. If hes too far away, move up.

2) Maybe. But its going to have to be more than a tight gun with decent ROF. There are tons of those in the market already.

3) Cocker barrel-threads? still a maybe. cocker feedneck-threads? no.

4) No. I have to be able to strip it.

5) No.

6) No.

[Fred]

1) If a gun were incredibly tight, with a working backspin feature BUT, had a ROF of about 10 BPS max, would you be interested?

A model 98 can shoot faster than 10... and would be cheaper than yours... why would I want yours?

2) If same gun were tight, with no backspin feature, and a relatively decent ROF, would you be interested?

which makes it different or better... how? from any other marker on the market?

3) If said gun were cocker threaded, but with a slightly higher feed neck then average (think BKO/B2K3, Only a little higher) would you be interested?

You want it to be tight... but are making it intentionally taller... think about that...

4) If said gun were incapable of being electronically fired (ATM), and is not reccomended to be opened up, would you be interested?

you aren't allowed to fix it... good call...

5) If said gun had a version, to be used with halos, Q-Loaders, and Warps only, and were tourney ILLEGAL, but delivered insane ROF (with sub-par efficiency; think classic automag/shocker, only a little worse) would you be interested?

have you ever heard of marketing?

6) If gun had the specs of those listed in Q1, and were priced in the area of an E-Blade, or less (later on) would you be interested?

not likely...


I really think you're grasping at straws here, you appear to want to design something to do something, but you're completely NOT committed to anything. Most of these ideas have been done before, and some weren't that good to begin with... look at the history of the sport and market trends, Tournament Legal and ready is the name of the game. Backspin is rectastic and even when the paint does make it out farther, it doesn't break... cool idea, but in reality it has little use without being able to dump A LOT of paint while using it.

Pick a design style, if small and compact is your main design goal, stick with it 100%, that means lowrise/norise or warp/qloader.

its pretty apparent you're way over your head in this little project of yours...

[OysterBoy]

Thanks for your opinion, flawed as some of it may be.

This survey was intended to get a feel as for what you (public) want. This means you DONT want high-rise bodys, DO want high ROF, Legal, etc. I hope you realise the gun will not have the specs listed in the questions, at least not all of them.

[Pain For Pleasure]

1)People want high ROF these days, but I can see 10bps as not too bad considering most mechs are slower.
2)Most people can get pretty tight with a marker that will deliver a lot more than that.
3)Tight, but tall? meh...
4)First part doesn't bother me, but if the gun is too delicat to take apart, a lot of people are going to screw it up when they try to.
5)If its tourny illegal, and had high rof, I don't see the point as in most rec ballers don't need that kind of speed.
6)probably not

I cant see this being more than a novelty gun. Kinda almost like a nasty typhoon.

[ScatterPlot]

[QUOTE=OysterBoy]1) If a gun were incredibly tight, with a working backspin feature BUT, had a ROF of about 10 BPS max, would you be interested?
I might be, but would have to try it out first (obviously). I would think that the lower BPS would be bad, but then again I stink at shooting fast anyways. I do like the backspin, as long as it doesn't cause increased chops like on the Tippmanns.

2) If same gun were tight, with no backspin feature, and a relatively decent ROF, would you be interested?
What is "Relatively Decent? Again, I don't shoot very fast, and I would really want it more if I knew it was very easy to shoot (think hAir trigger)
3) If said gun were cocker threaded, but with a slightly higher feed neck then average (think BKO/B2K3, Only a little higher) would you be interested?
Oooh, coming from someone used to a warp, high feednecks are bad.

4) If said gun were incapable of being electronically fired (ATM), and is not reccomended to be opened up, would you be interested?
What do you mean "not reccommended"? Like as in it's hard to do, or it's fruitless to do so? Most people including myself really like being able to fix their guns on their own. I think this would be a very bad call.

5) If said gun had a version, to be used with halos, Q-Loaders, and Warps only, and were tourney ILLEGAL, but delivered insane ROF (with sub-par efficiency; think classic automag/shocker, only a little worse) would you be interested?
No. There wouldn't be a point except in woods games and just for piddling with. Like mentioned above, why not just take the sear out of a Spyder or even a Stingray? You could just use full-auto boards for other guns. Nothing beneficial about it.
6) If gun had the specs of those listed in Q1, and were priced in the area of an E-Blade, or less (later on) would you be interested?
Not sure, didn't see the specs in Q1.

If you could maybe make a better pic, that would be great at least for me. Good luck with this project.

[OysterBoy]

Thanks for the input.

Hear are a few revisions;
by 'Not Recomended', we mean, take it apart, but if something goes horribly wrong its not our fault. The main reasoning is, the inner workings of the gun are in fact in the grip frame. Because of the fact people will want to open it, plus we need a canal to put the internals in, the grip will have seals that come into effect when the panels are on. Its a little hard to explain at the moment, but basically, you need to know what your doing. I trust the AO community, in general, to be able to open it up, look, tinker, and then put it back together the way its meant to be.

By Q1, I mean Question 1 :p

By no means will this guns pull be terribly heavy, if assembeled correctyly,on our part (think grease on the bolt to keep it from ceasing), but it will not be the regular pull. Here is a quick 'preview' of the trigger
http://members.rogers.com/headfirstdesigns/trigger.jpg

Without giving away the rest of the internals, let me assure you, firing will have an odd feel. Youll pull until you hit the 'mark'. The mark is exactly where the air passage is, and its also the point where the internal "NoFlow" meets its cap. When this happens, you'll A) experience a shot exiting, and B) feel the trigger push back in your hands. RT effect? no, because at this point the NoFlow is preventing you from holding down the trigger, wasting air, or doing the things mentioned in Question 5 ;)

The idea behind this gun was to get away from the high ROF world. Think pump class with semi-auto capabilities.

Also, the high feedneck described is because our detent is mounted in said feedneck, its the only way to ensure a ball is where it should be, HOWEVER... :)
The neck will be adjustable for the warp/Q inclined among us.

Alex Hnatiuk,
HFD

[dansim]

that drawing cant be serious, can it.... :eek: if so, hahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahhahahahahahhahahaha hhahahahhaha, ahem, hahhahahhhahhahhahhaha,ha,ha,tee hee

[mcveighr]

Make a CAD model or something.

Also I don't see how you're going to manufacture and market a gun if you're like 13.

Edit: I wouldn't buy and of those choices.

[penguinpunk555]

I won't buy it.

[Fred]

Sounds like you're overengineering now, if you can even call it engineering...

Go check out the satco 700 (http://www.docsmachine.com/tech/satco700.html) for an example of a complex design that didn't work too well and never made it to the market...

KISS is a good rule to follow... Keep It Simple Stupid.

[OysterBoy]

Some of you seem to have the misconception that I am doing this all by myself, with no experience whatsoever. We (yes, WE) are in the process of collecting funds in efforts to build a working prototype over the next 2 to 3 years. This isn't something that can happen over night, anyone who thinks so needs a dose of reality. If this gun doesn't work, thats it. No more. But, if it does work, I (I speak for myself) will do my damnedest to market and manufacture it.

I am almost driven to laughter when I read 'I won't buy it', simply because I havent shared a whole lot of information, at least not enough. But, to each their own.

As for the over-engineering comment, it really isn't an overly complex design. The real work (on our part) will be to find the exact strengths for the various pieces, i.e. bolt and return magnet, NoFlow ball bearings and springs, etc. It may seem complex, but if you had one in your hand, you shouldnt have too hard of a time understanding it. I won't dare compare it to the Automag; that would be an insult to the precision crafting of AGD, but I will say it is only a little more complex then a spyder. Think an autococker with less parts.

Once more,
the cad remark.

This is where we are fried. Neither evan nor I have much experience with CAD, so I will be doing the designs in Visio for now until we get a better understanding of the program. Anyone willing to help, we'd apreciate it, but only once our patent is through..

Damn I need a job..

[mcveighr]

I am almost driven to laughter when I read 'I won't buy it', simply because I havent shared a whole lot of information, at least not enough. But, to each their own

You shared enough information for us to know that it's going to be complex, expensive, possibly slow, possibly difficult to take apart, possibly tourney illegal, possibly inefficient, and possibly take cocker barrels and ugly.

Thats alot of possibly's so it doesnt really sound like you know what you want to do. And a survey of people on AO probably wont help much, seeing as we tend to be a little biased and fdifferent than the general paintball public.

If you're going to be designing things you should learn to use AutoCAD, with more drawings olike that one you'll be laughed at.

[Butterfingers]

If you trust me you can PM me the general specifics design and I will tell you if it is physycally viable or not. You can save the PM and use it as evidence if you fear that I am going to steal it. My input might save you a bit of time and heartache.

[127.0.0.1]

Questions:
1) If a gun were incredibly tight, with a working backspin feature BUT, had a ROF of about 10 BPS max, would you be interested?

I would like another feature : Adjustable spin AND self-adjusting backspin if desired (I mean, when you tilt the gun the ball launched still backspins, not some sideward spin like flatline)

2) If same gun were tight, with no backspin feature, and a relatively decent ROF, would you be interested?

My Force Fly and Tadao trix is better than yours... most probably

3) If said gun were cocker threaded, but with a slightly higher feed neck then average (think BKO/B2K3, Only a little higher) would you be interested?

NO!

4) If said gun were incapable of being electronically fired (ATM), and is not reccomended to be opened up, would you be interested?

NO!

5) If said gun had a version, to be used with halos, Q-Loaders, and Warps only, and were tourney ILLEGAL, but delivered insane ROF (with sub-par efficiency; think classic automag/shocker, only a little worse) would you be interested?

Why bother? Tourney illegal = field illegal

6) If gun had the specs of those listed in Q1, and were priced in the area of an E-Blade, or less (later on) would you be interested?

Dunno

[Mango]

Is this guy joking?




This is a joke right?





:confused: :rolleyes:

[OysterBoy]

I dont see what is so funny about it, the crudeness of my sketches has already been poked at..

I sent a more detailed sketch involving the internals to butters, but thats because I trust his opinion and thoughts.

[mcveighr]

Because we've seen your other designs. And theyre also laughable. Not to mention some of us have seen your website, also pretty laughable.

And you don't seem to have any idea what this is going to do.

It's hard to be taken seriously when you're very young.

[OysterBoy]

It's hard to be taken seriously when you're very young.

Amen. My biggest handicap is my lack of experience. That doesn't mean I shouldn't try. And insulting my (now defunct, always crappy though) website is a little uncalled for.