Why did they put the detent on top?

[trains are bad]

Seriously. On the warp ULE bodies. I mean there's this huge flat panel on the side opposite the feed tube. Why did they go and stick it on top?

[-=Squid=-]

Just imagine it... a ball would just be pressing against the detent, rather than fitting between it and the paint like it should. Thats what im assuming at least. I just dont think it would work well.

[elpimpo]

im not possitive but i think it puts some sort of spin on the ball

[Potatoboy]

In order for a ball detent of the ball and spring style to work properly it needs to be at a 90 degree angle in relation to the direction the balls feed. Thus, Balls feed from top, detent on either side; balls feed from side, detent on top or bottom.

Since there's really no room and it would be a pain to change if mounted on the bottom, it sits up top.

[-=Squid=-]

In order for a ball detent of the ball and spring style to work properly it needs to be at a 90 degree angle in relation to the direction the balls feed. Thus, Balls feed from top, detent on either side; balls feed from side, detent on top or bottom.

Since there's really no room and it would be a pain to change if mounted on the bottom, it sits up top.
Thats kinda what I was thinking...

[trains are bad]

In order for a ball detent of the ball and spring style to work properly it needs to be at a 90 degree angle in relation to the direction the balls feed.

Why?

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[Mindflux]

Why?

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Obviously if it was on the other side of the warp feed all the pressure on the ballstack would keep it retracted.. i don't think it would work very well like that.

[Gambit1106]

Why?

With the paintball feeding in from the side all it would do is put pressure against the detent and not have any back pressure from the detent to hold the ball in place. Look at it this way, a Halo is force feed if the detent was on the bottom of the breach under the feed tube and all it will do it push the the detent down with out holding the ball from another angel in the breech.

[deathstalker]

With the paintball feeding in from the side all it would do is put pressure against the detent and not have any back pressure from the detent to hold the ball in place. Look at it this way, a Halo is force feed if the detent was on the bottom of the breach under the feed tube and all it will do it push the the detent down with out holding the ball from another angel in the breech.
I don't think this is accurate because in both Warp and vert ULE bodies, the detent is slightly forward of the feedneck. The balls won't hit it straight on and shouldn't compress it (that's how I see it, at least). I just don't understand how it makes a difference.

I've often wondered about this myself, as I think the detent is the only thing that detracts from the aesthetics of my setup. I'd love it if someone could expound on it or dumb it down, whatever the case my be. :D

[CoolHand]

I don't think this is accurate because in both Warp and vert ULE bodies, the detent is slightly forward of the feedneck. The balls won't hit it straight on and shouldn't compress it (that's how I see it, at least). I just don't understand how it makes a difference.

I've often wondered about this myself, as I think the detent is the only thing that detracts from the aesthetics of my setup. I'd love it if someone could expound on it or dumb it down, whatever the case my be. :D

I think its more of a manufacturing thing, rather than an actual feature (think design for ease of manufacture).

Look at a vert ULE body, the feed tube is up, and the ball detent is on the right hand side (looking from the back of the body). Now, roll that vert body over 90 degs to the left, and you get a WarpL body. Note the position of the ball detent when you roll the body over, now its on top.

I'm guessing that the reason it is built like that, is to allow them to have a common billet for both types of body. You can tell just by looking at the body that the tube is turned out first with a big bump in the center where the feedneck goes. While its in the lathe (with live tooling), they will most likely go ahead and bore and tap the feed neck tube, and then the ball detent.

Now they have a ULE body blank, which can be turned into either a vert or warp feed body, with only one more machining operation, which can be done on a 4th axis vertical machine (or even a vert with an indexer), rather than tying up the uber expensive live tooled lathe (which needs to be earning top dollar ever hour of the day).

That's my take on it anyway.

[trains are bad]

I don't think this is accurate because in both Warp and vert ULE bodies, the detent is slightly forward of the feedneck. The balls won't hit it straight on and shouldn't compress it (that's how I see it, at least). I just don't understand how it makes a difference.

Me either. If I get one I'm tapping a hole on the right side and puttting it there.

[Fred]

if the detent is in a position paralel to the force on the ball, it will just get compressed and the ball will not be held where its supposed to...

if its perpendicular, it will hold the ball properly until the bolt pushes it into the breech...

its the way it is for a reason...

there's not much meat on the ULE warp body to add another detent either.

---Fred

[deathstalker]

^^^^^^^^^^
I still don't see how/why this would happen. I thought the detent was there simply to prevent double-feeding, not ball positioning. I don't understand why a detent would get compressed. When a ball gets fed, it doesn't hit the detent directly. The detent sits forward of the feed tube and appears to simply keep the ball from moving too far forward. I also don't see how a paintball could compress the detent, even with a force-fed loader. I thought the bolt did this.

CoolHand has offered the best explanation so far. I can ALWAYS relate to something when you bring it down to its cost. If it's that simple, I could consider this whole conversation over. :)

[Fred]

think about what you just said...

double ball feeding is a direct result of balls pushing past the detent, if the first ball (note: we're talking force feed here) presses the detent down, the following ball will push it out of position, and then repeat the cycle...

The Warp Xmag breeches have the detent on top too...

Edit: check out my 3 minute Autocad/Photoshop diagram... note: scales are not correct.

http://soa.udmercy.edu/students/1068581/detent_diagram.gif

if the detent is compressed, it can't prevent double feeds... it doesn't get compressed when it is acting perpendicular to the balls path entering the breech.

[TheLaxPlayer]

The whole point he is trying to make is that the first ball wouldn't push the detent down. It would be pushed into the opposite side of the body, and the detent would be foward of the ball (closer to the barrel).

This is the same way it would work with the detent on top because the ball wouldn't push the detent, but instead push on the body.

In the top picture you posted, the ball detent would not be directly across from the feed tube. You posted 2-dimensional pictures to portray a 3-dimentional situation.

[trains are bad]

Word.



what he said and all that.

[FutureMagOwner]

doesnt make a difference in a mag it would in a cocker however because of the way the detent. you could drill on the side i suppose but you would most likely void agds warantee however i would only do that so i could put in 2 ball detents but not to get it off the top and with the rail if its all milled out you could probably also put one in on the bottem.

[LudavicoSoldier]

Personally, I like the detent on top. I am thinking of modding a High-Viz fiber sight bead to sit on top of the detent.

[Gambit1106]

think about what you just said...

double ball feeding is a direct result of balls pushing past the detent, if the first ball (note: we're talking force feed here) presses the detent down, the following ball will push it out of position, and then repeat the cycle...


Thus the reason that a lot of people had to go to stiffer detents because of force feed loaders pushing past detents.

[deathstalker]

But I still don't understand why a detent mounted on the top works differently from a detent mounted on the side! I don't understand why a force-fed loader might push balls past the detent if it's mounted on the side but won't if it's mounted on the top. The detent is forward of the feed tube.

What forces are at work that requires detents to be installed at a 90-degree angle from how they're fed? Isn't the same amount of force applied to the ball (from the loader) no matter where the detent is mounted?

[TheLaxPlayer]

Myself and train believe it doesn't matter at all. You could put the detent on the same side the balls feed in, and it would do the same thing.

I would say good call to CoolHand and call it a done deal.

[AGD]

Please gentelmen, do I have to explain every little detail ? Can't you just trust us on some things? Don't you think we would have put the detent on the side if we could? If you want play pro gun designer please go ahead and drill a detent hole where you THINK it should be on the side.... have fun.

Air-Gun-DESIGNS

[Target Practice]

Ouch, Presidential burn. TK is right though. Let the pros and the engineers deal with it. Trust them to know what they are doing. They haven't given us any reason not to, have they?

[trains are bad]

Let the pros and the engineers deal with it. Trust them to know what they are doing.

NEVER! :D

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[Kevmag]

Please gentelmen, do I have to explain every little detail ? Can't you just trust us on some things?

Please do... This is AO. Question is what we do.

[Fred]

it has been explained... if you still don't get it, destroy your warp ULE bodies with a new detent on the side and then come complain about them being out of warrenty.

[dansim]

it has been explained but they are asking something people are over looking

the top mounted detent is located like a half inch infront of the feed tube the balls coming in have to move forward in order to touch the detent. they are asking why couldnt it be located on the side, a half inch infront of the stack, i personally know it would negate the detent, but to each his own, personally i want to get a bullet detent for the top and turn it into a quasisight

[deathstalker]

it has been explained... if you still don't get it, destroy your warp ULE bodies with a new detent on the side and then come complain about them being out of warrenty.
I think your explanantion is lacking and did not answer the other questions it raised. Your explanation assumed a side-mounted detent would be directly across from the ball as its fed. This is not the case. You can't even see the detent if you look straight down the feed tube. No one is implying the design is wrong or that it should be done a different way. No one is even disagreeing that they won't work when side-mounted. There are simply a few people who would like to know WHY it does not work if mounted on the side.

The answers people have provided to the original question of, "Why did they put the detent on top?" have raised more questions for clarification. Those questions have not been answered. If I had the resources (read: tools) to properly drill and tap for the detent, I would have no problem doing so. However, I only have hand tools and I do not trust myself to do it correctly. I've already dropped a couple grand on AGD gear, what's another $150 to drop on a new body? Far be it for me to think Tom might actually provide an answer if he's already done the research. We're not complaining, nor are we saying it's wrong, just simply asking why it works that way.

And yes, Tom, we do question little things. If you don't question things, you're nothing but a sheep. Hey, how'd that first run of ULE bodies go? I heard everyone LOVED how well the detents worked. (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76858) If anyone had problems, it was obviously their own fault because you're the pro gun designer.I heard 3.2 was perfect and NO ONE had to make any modifications because NO ONE was having any problems. (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114264&highlight=3.2+fix) Oh wait, you're a pro gun designer and not a programmer, right?

I'm sorry if I have neither the time, resources, nor education to play pro gun designer with you. Maybe Jim Drew has some spare time on his hands and you can play with him.

[Kevmag]

I personally don't care about the detent location - I'm not buying one either way as I personally found my emag w/ warp set up too heavy for my tastes.

The reason for my post was AGD's response surprised me. "Just trust us" is something I expect from other companies. The great thing about AO is it give the average player access to insight on how/why products are designed directly from the man himself. I can't think of another company that does this...

[deathstalker]

I wholeheartedly agree, which is why I showed attitude I usually don't. The I-make-paintball-guns-for-a-living-and-you-don't-so-I'm-right attitude doesn't sit well with me at all. I guess Jim should have simply said, "I make boards so I'm right" when questioned about his products.