Black Quad o-ring ???

[purplemag]

The black quad o-ring is designed for use with the e/x-mags due to less resistance, therefore better shooting and longer battery life.

Is this o-ring designed to be used in valves that utilize the two o-rings in the bottom of the on/off or should it work in all valves.
I have a mech mag and with the quad o-ring the reactivity is awesome, but it leaks and does the sprinkler effect thing.
How do you know if your valve is supposed to use the two o-ring on/off or the one?
I just don't understand why the quad would leak in my valve???

2002 Retro valve

[purplemag]

anyone? bueller, anyone???

[the electrician]

the quad o-ring works at helping the recharge rate of the gun I've noticed. the pin is only using the first of the two inner seal surfaces inside the quad ring. this seal surface is closer to the edged of the o-ring, and the pin seal is opened to a larger flow area, faster than using a normal o-ring.

I don't know what you means by sprinkler effect, does the quad ring fit snugly in your valve? does it seems to seal around the pin? have you tried shimming the RT on/off to keep it from coming down due to air pressure force?

[purplemag]

The quad seems to fit in just like any other on/off o-ring.
I guess I am wondering if the quad is designed to work only in valves that have been designed for the two o-ring on/off assembly.
I believe mine is only the one o-ring style and possiby why I would have problems with the quad style. How can one tell what number of o-rings the on/off is supposed to have??? Is based on date of production or certain valves or what???
Sorry if that does not make much sense! I tried to explain it like I am thinking it!

[RRfireblade]

The number of intended o-rings is apparent by simply looking in the on/off opening.

The bottom of the on/off hole is either flat on the bottom or milled with an outer shelf that takes the place of the outer o-ring.

As for the quad,I don't see why it won't work in either valve,I can only say that I've put the quad in every valve I've ever had.(I have my reasons ;))

And have had no ill effects by doing so.

What kind of probs are you having?

[purplemag]

Hey Jay
The gun just seemed to be "acting up". It would kinda act like the LVL 10 was kicking and not resetting right, or it would chuff quite a bit. It would do the sprinkler effect if i held the trigger back.
I guess it may have been a bad quad o-ring, but have heard reports that those things rarely go bad.
I put in a regular on/off o-ring for the retro valve and it seems to work well with no chuffing or sprinkler.
think it was just a bad o-ring???

[the electrician]

like I said, the seal point is physically lower with a quad ring, than with a regular o-ring. this may make your retro valve have a recharge problem at lower input psi. shim up your on/off. maybe .020" see if that helps.

[purplemag]

Don't have a ULT kit, so hard to shim it up? Any other suggestions? It is not the end of the world, but when I had the quad in there and it was kinda working, the reactivity was super easy to control, and very very quick.
You can imagine this would be an ideal situation, so would like to figure it out!

[RRfireblade]

on/off pin to short.

Sounds like it's border line,try tightening down the field strip screw with an allen wrench.If that helps than your pins a hair to short. :)

[athomas]

My single o-ring emag valve uses the quad o-ring.

Your "lawn sprinkler" leaking problem probably was a bad or dirty o-ring.

You can shim your on/off top using the level 10 shims. Each level 10 shim is equal to 2 ULT shims.

[purplemag]

now you cannot laugh, but i have no expierience with the ULT on/off, so where would I shim the on/off if I needed to? I am guessing just place a shim in right over the quad o-ring? Thanks!

[the electrician]

the RT on/off is actually two pieces. top and bottom. take them apart apart and put the shims in around the threads of the bottom part, like the shims were washers.

I use a shimmed up RT on/off with a quad ring in a classic valve, e-mag conversion. it helped enough to get my bps up to 18, from 16.

[RRfireblade]

now you cannot laugh, but i have no expierience with the ULT on/off, so where would I shim the on/off if I needed to? I am guessing just place a shim in right over the quad o-ring? Thanks!


As the electrician has said,but that has the same effect as shortening the on/off pin which I will assume,will make your problems worse.

[the electrician]

why would putting in a quad make the pin shorter though?

he said it was a retro valve. so isn't the pin supposed to be the standard .75" length?
alright purplemag take the pin out and measure it.

[RRfireblade]

why would putting in a quad make the pin shorter though?

he said it was a retro valve. so isn't the pin supposed to be the standard .75" length?
alright purplemag take the pin out and measure it.

I was talking about shimming it as you suggested. ;)

[purplemag]

Measured it at .750", just a normal everyday run of the mill on/off pin!
Let me know what else you guys think!
Thanks!

[the electrician]

well you could just unscrew the top and bottom halves of the on/off a turn or so. this would temporarily have the same effect as shimming it up.

you see when you gas up the gun, pressure pushes the on/off assembly down just as it does the pin. so making the on/off longer, doesn't let it get go down as far, this keeps the seal point up higher. this makes the pin not get pushed in as far past the seal point. this increase the rechagre capability of the gun. that's why they made the shims with the ULT. you should be able to do it since you are essentially making it longer by usig the quad ring.

earlier you said it was leaking, where is it leaking from?

[RRfireblade]

Let me know what else you guys think!
Thanks!

Try cranking down the feild strip screw with an allen wrench and see what happens.

[the electrician]

yeah what he said.

make sure both your main screws are snug. I never leave mine hand tight.

so, did you try anything yet? do you have a lvl 10?

[purplemag]

yes LVL 10, you guys are absolutely gonna laugh or want to kill me, but all my gear is actually out of town right now. I was really just trying to get some ideas in my head for next week when I can sit down and make this quad o-ring work. So trust me this thread is bookmarked, and I will use it and let you know how it all turns out! Thanks a bunch!!!

[Butterfingers]

The seal point is lower if you use a quad o-ring... The 0-ring sealing surface is "fatter" intead of sealing in the middle of the o-ring like a urethane. The Quad o-ring seals right at its outer edge. It's on average obout a 0.025" diffrence. Thats why e-mag on/off pins are shorter.

The .750 pin needs to be shaved down to .725 or it wont work too well.

[the electrician]

butterfingers-

no, he doesn't have to cut the pin down. that's why you shim up the on/off, so you don't have to permanently cut the pin. you can't stretch the pin if you cut it too short, but you can always take a shim back out if it's too much. not all guns are exactly the same, so his may not need the same measurements as yours.

you are correct though, that is why e-mag pins are shorter. they are .712. but they can be this short because they are electronic. the solenoid actuates the sear for a specific amount of time. I wouldn't recommend using that short of a pin in a mechanical retro valve.

he's better off sticking to the shim idea. the .020 shimming that I recomended in my earlier post will get him close.

[purplemag]

So just to kinda sum up the thread...
Tighten the field strip screws with allen wrench
Add one LVL 10 shim to the on/off assembly and check if working properly then another if necessary.

???

[Butterfingers]

butterfingers-

no, he doesn't have to cut the pin down. that's why you shim up the on/off, so you don't have to permanently cut the pin. you can't stretch the pin if you cut it too short, but you can always take a shim back out if it's too much. not all guns are exactly the same, so his may not need the same measurements as yours.

you are correct though, that is why e-mag pins are shorter. they are .712. but they can be this short because they are electronic. the solenoid actuates the sear for a specific amount of time. I wouldn't recommend using that short of a pin in a mechanical retro valve.

he's better off sticking to the shim idea. the .020 shimming that I recomended in my earlier post will get him close.


Your right it can be done 2 ways. But In my particular body if you shim it up too much the brass on/off top gets hung up on the body. If he permanently decides to use the Quad o-ring the shave down is a more permanent solution. That's all im saying.

Also have you noticed any diffrences in consistency when going "too short" on a mech mag? Im still testing to see if there is actually a diffrence. I tried a .712 with a Quad-o-ring last time I played it was reactive as heck but I remember not being too happy at the chrono...

Im trying to figure out if it was a result of my messing around or if it was somthing else... like crappy Zap Spank Seconds.... Which I am proud to say my LX ate proudly without one chop while other people with "low pressure" guns mimicked wagner power painters...

Dark Olive Shell and thin spots in the paint where you could see right through to the pink fill didnt help im sure. ACE's were practically blind to this stuff...

But I digress... :D

[the electrician]

butterfingers-

I'm with ya, if you shim too much, the on/off won't fit inside the body, but you're talking about shimming it more than .060" on most bodies and on/offs to get that problem to occur.

for him, in his circumstance, the best method would be shimming. I think it's obvious that he doesn't completely understand his gun (no offense purple mag).


I have cut my pin down in my classic valve, e-mag mod. I noticed that originally, I could chave a full 1/16" off the pin, making it .687" long. but then I noticed a level 10 problem. when the bolt was stopped like it was chopping paint, it would no longer reset. what happened was the pin was letting air back intoo the chamber when the sear was stuck in this half way position. it couldn't go all the way back up, because the bolt was there. this was keeping the bolt from resetting. while this super short pin worked under normal conditions, and raised by bps considerably, If I pinched paint, it would be the end of the game for me. I found that I could shave the pin only .030" and it would cure this problem. so the pin was .720" then I tried the quad ring. I decided to try shimming at this point to avoid buying another pin if I cut this one too short. I actually shimmed the on/off .040" which is more than half the thickness of the quad ring. doesn't really make sense but it shot great. no level 10 problems, and my max bps increase from 16 to 18 with the classic valve. BUT the only reason it works is because my sear is actuated for a specific amount of time, every time. 30 msec. this does not work on a mechanical valve. I've tried.

[purplemag]

wow thanks for the compliment elec! I am pretty sure I have had a mag for about 7 years now, so I fully understand the principles that they work off of. But in this case I had a very specific question to a specific problem and had a general idea of how to fix it but just wanted some other opinions.
But I most certainly do know exactly how my gun works. Because I may not know where to put shims or such due to not ever doing work on that "type" of mod does not mean I do not know how my gun works. Sorry to rant, but man you make it sound like I am 12 and my parents just bought the gun for me.

[the electrician]

that came across wrong. I'm sorry.

but in your original post you said: "how do you know if your valve is supposed to use the two o-ring on/off or the one?"

to me, that sounds like you don't understand something. a retro valve cannot use two o-rings. it doesn't need them. have you ever taken apart a classic valve? if so you would see the difference right away. so from that statement, I assumed you didn't understand about the retro valve

I didn't mean to insult anybody at all. hell alot of people who own mags have no idea how a RT/retro/x valve actually works. i just try to give helpful suggestion that would be good advice for those who may or may not completely understand the whole workings of the gun.

no insult was intended at all, and I'm sorry if it ended up that way. I really just wanted you to be able to use the quad, and make sure to give good advice.

please accept my apologies