Steyr AUG Marker

[One4theDude]

I found this on the Tippmann forum - ATCPaintball (http://www.atcpaintball.com)

They're calling it the AUM - Army Universal Marker. Pretty cool, even though it's for a Tippmann. I think I saw this guy last year at Shatnerball II.

http://www.atcpaintball.com/atc/images/sections/AUM_CrossTiltColorSmall.gif

I wonder if they're going to make one for an AutoMag? That would be wicked.

[Target Practice]

Bad Idea. Talk about royaly screwing the image of paintball. Nope, as much as I hate to say it (cuz I don't especially like the looks of them), markers like the DM4 help keep paintball "public friendly".

[tony3]

That's cool.....wait no, just a waste of money. Why don't these people convert actually nice guns to cool milism guns instead of spyders and tippmanns!

[ghed]

I was never really thrilled w/ markers that are made to look like real guns either, even back when I was in to woodsball I still felt markers like that looked tacky. Maybe its b/c Im not into real guns...just my opinion.

[Konigballer]

I LOVE real guns, but I've always felt paintball guns made to look like real guns was so corny. Its just way cheasy for my taste, even if they do a good job.

I like how paintball guns have evolved into their own identity and usually dont look like real guns at all, they just look like paintball guns. I think the bright colors and tons of aftermarket mods and near endless customization options have turned the paintball marker scene into a miniature version of the hot rod/import scene. I think thats sweet :cool: A person can really have their own identity on the field without looking like some rambo wannabe.

Besides, thats what airsoft is for, and it does a MUCH better job at duplicating the look and feel of real firearms.

[devildog]

looks alot like the new rifle being designed for the services, im sure thats what they based it on.

[Konigballer]

its based of the Steyr AUG, its been around for years. This thing just looks like a cartoon version of it :p

[127.0.0.1]

Can't use HPA... plus still has a hopper sticking out.

Not real enough haha

[doc_Zox]

One problem is a conventional rifle design is dang hard to aim with a paintball mask on.

[can'tthink of1]

If you want to be realistic, and do the whole army thing, please play airsoft, its much better and cheaper for military stuff, when compared to paintball.

[ghideon]

I don't mind markers that look like real guns. It will always be a niche market anyhow, and won't get terribly too much attention since it's a niche market.

I wanted to get into AirSoft for awhile, but honestly, it scared the poo poo outta me. The guns feel entirely too real. Not that I have a thing against real firearms, I love em and have been shooting since I was eight. Just too realistic to have fun with.

[dansim]

its called scenario ball, some of you need to look it up :rolleyes: (damn i wish this roll eyes pic was harsher)

[127.0.0.1]

I still prefer VF Tactical cocker over that one... not terribly out of place on both speedball and scenario/woodsball

[Fred]

how many posts do we need on the SAME GUN!?

[MrWallen]

Too.......much.......plastic.....gah!!!!!

[Z-man]

...markers like the DM4 help keep paintball "public friendly".


Oh yes we like the Nike shoe!

Ugg I HATE the looks of that thing but I would aggree that its a smarter look to go with than making a mock real gun. That is just ASKING for trouble like airsoft if you ask me...

[teufelhunden]

That's cool.....wait no, just a waste of money. Why don't these people convert actually nice guns to cool milism guns instead of spyders and tippmanns!

Because we don't want our guns to look like rifles.

Devildog: The new rifle for the services is the XM-8. There's some info on it on HK's website [yeah, the gun HK, not the paintball HKL ;)]

[cledford]

This issue comes up at least once a month. And once again, for everyone who thinks that it is a mistake for markers to "look" like "real" guns, you need to come to terms with the following:

#1 For all intent and purpose, as a former police officer in 3 different states, paintball markers already meet the legal definition of a weapon in each of the states in which I have lived.

#2 You could put a purple angel and a Cobray M11 on a table and 9 out of 10 soccer mom's would still not be able to pick out the paintball marker - unless you told them that there was one present. As soon as the marker turns black - forget about it.

#2B Said soccer mom (the Rosie O'Donnell disciple) would not care if one of said guns was a "paintball marker" - she would STILL want them both banned.

If you think that paintball is "safe" from anti-gun/anti-violence types you need to think again. Running around fields populated with "balloons" (bunkers), wearing brightly colored "clown suits" (today’s fashionable paintball apparel), "marking" "players" with "marking devices" doesn't fool the people who would have our sport banned.

The short side of the story is that scenario types are:

#1 the fastest growing segment of our sport
#2 Rec/scenario players outnumber the Tourney scene 10 fold
#3 They are all supportive, both in their hearts and wallets, for *your* sport - whereas the Rosie's aren't.

So this constant bleating "I don't think real looking markers are good for the sport" is self-indulgent and detracts from that which you seek to protect. As a veteran of the Gun Rights movement, I can tell that what led the ban of private firearms ownership in Great Britain, and what has been the single biggest challenge here in the states has been people with much in common (gun owners) turning up their noses at one another (The target shooters vs. the hunters vs. the shotgunners vs. the practice shooters vs. the military collectors, etc) and not standing together. As I've said before, Ben Franklin said it best - "We can all hang together, or we shall certainly hang individually." Another is “In Germany they came first for the Communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me--and by that time no one was left to speak up.”

One other thing, paintball has thus far skirted under the radar of the anti violence types. Don't expect that to last. Now that it has become a multimillion dollar industry, and one that the demographics show now is overwhelmingly a youth endeavor - you can expect them to anytime start to come for us as well. Mark my words, you heard it hear first and it will happen. The question is -will we stand together to defend our sport - or will we point fingers hoping that they only go after "others" with the "bad" equipment in a passive, patsy attempt to slide under the radar of the "antis?"

Don’t sell out those who share your interests – stand with them – otherwise you might go down last, but you’ll still go down.

-Calvin

[kenndogg]

clelford...you sir are a wise man. As for as markers looking like real guns, I'm all for it.

[Z-man]

clelford I am surprised that you take that stance. I would have thought as a police officer you would have looked it this way.

1- there will always be idiots on the world who cannot tell the difference between a Super Soaker and an M1. I would suspect that 90% of the world however would recognize that that this:
http://www.zakvetter.com/Images/Paintball/Gallery/Automags/Page1/cryers-mag.jpg
is CLEARLY something other than this:
http://www.colt.com/law/images/m4.jpg

2- As a police officer who is responsible for protecting us and as an educated individual, YOU can tell the difference if you were called out by some soccer mom who freaked out because some kid ran past with a Lasoya Timmy (have to be a pretty ignorant one to think that is a real gun but for the sake of the argument...). You won't spot that kid and think HOLY Crap the kids got an AR-15! How many of those news reports of the poor police officer gunning down a kid who had a realistic looking squirt gun do you need before it’s a legit argument? What a crappy deal for your guys having to try and tell the difference and decide whether or not to shoot them while some idiot who thinks its funny is running around.

You build the marker to look like something that kills you; you end up with situations like that PERIOD. Even 1 life over that kind of mistake is NOT REASONABLE. If you have the option you create the problem by making it looks like a real weapon. Again, it does not HELP anyone tell the difference it makes it HARDER. How does that help us?

3- I don’t see how making a clear distinction between a real firearm and a paintball marker is a vote to ban or in any way detract from the very REAL right to own them. If you separate them, you make it distinct for people which one is the thing that ends you life when you point it at them and which is not. I would think that it would be in your best interest to separate the 2 sports, as paintball is the one filled with 12-year-old kids who shoot passing cars. I say the same thing about airsoft and I will NOT get into the sport because of that.

Even being generous and saying that say 40% of the population cannot see the difference between a paintball maker and an assault rifle at a distance, 99% cannot tell the difference between a true to form mock up one that shoots airsoft bullets. Again, you set yourself up for a misunderstanding where someone ends up with holes in their body SIMPLE AS THAT.

To make the claim that scenario markers need to look real for the game to work is not valid IMHO. The above cons far outweigh ANY argument for it if it INCREASES the change that you are going to get shot for holding a "real" weapon. Notice how the Tac One has a great look about it but its still CLEAR that it's not a firearm (at least clear the police officer). I would NOT say the same about Armotech.

[cphilip]

Well actually I did not think Calvin was taking a stance on the looks thing at all. I think he is pointing out that even the standard paintball markers look like real guns to a lot of people. I don't think his point was that he is in favor of making them look MORE like real guns at all. I think thats beside the point of what he was saying there.

[Z-man]

Really? < squints at Keyboard > Might be what I get for waking up early and posting a groggy state....


#1 For all intent and purpose, as a former police officer in 3 different states, paintball markers already meet the legal definition of a weapon in each of the states in which I have lived.

#2 You could put a purple angel and a Cobray M11 on a table and 9 out of 10 soccer mom's would still not be able to pick out the paintball marker - unless you told them that there was one present. As soon as the marker turns black - forget about it.

Sounds like he is arguing that it does not make a difference if you make a mock M16 or an Angel Fly. Sounds like he is saying that one is no worse than the other....


So this constant bleating "I don't think real looking markers are good for the sport" is self-indulgent and detracts from that which you seek to protect.

Sounds like he is saying that not wanting to make mock real pb guns is detrimental to our right to bear arms and the industry as a whole...

I think Ill wait to let Cledford explain what he ment. I would rather be wrong about what I think I am reading ;)

[cphilip]

True but I not certain he is taking a strong stance FOR them to be made. I think thats where you are reading it differently than me.

[Mckevern]

The point is this ... The people against this sport do not care if a paintball marker looks real or not. They will go after them all, maybe not all at once but they will go after them all.

First will be the scenario marker .... and when those are gone, they will go after the rest. And with each victory under their belt, they will become harder to stop.

Calvin already informed you that in the three states he's been in, markers were already considered a danger to the public.

Why? Well I don't think it has anything to do with what a marker looks like ... It's those stupid kids that go to Walmart, or talk their parents into buying the marker for them. At which point the kid's IQ drops through the floor and they go out and hurt someone. It's these kids that are killing the sport, not the markers.

So attacking someone who plays the same game, but in a different aspect isn't really productive for you. Chances are there's someone out there that collecting all the negative garbage they can on the internet and they will end up using it in court to win what ever case that IS on the horizon. They'll figure if they can get someone in the sport to "write" or "say" something against Sim-Markers that's in the sport then it will make getting Sim-Markers banned the easier. After which they'll then go after your E-MAG because of it's high rate of fire, or it's realistic appearance because it appears to have a "clip" ... the crap will go on.

You may think my point is crap, but seeing how 75% of my family is lawyers gives me a real good point of view on how people work to win their cases and the hoops they are willing to jump through.

Granted you have the freedom of speech to speak your mind and I will not ask you not to. I just hope your there to support the Sim-Marker when they come under fire.

[Z-man]

If the poit was to unify ourselves around the sport we all love and try to put forth in the best light that's different. Of course I want to see paintball flourish. Anyone who has met me knows this.

But to answer your last remark; I am not sure what I would do about that. I know that:

1- I think its a poor direction to take the take sport (for reasons mentioned above)

2- it IS a nice easy in for the many "its somebody's fault but not mine" law suits.

If you you ask me it would help the industry to stay out of sim-makers, rather than make them. I still would like to hear an argument that justifies that when the consequnces are life ending.

[Sir_Brass]

Here's some news for z-man and his ilk: realistic markers have been our for YEARS. This is NOT new at all. And guess what, it hasn't hurt our sport ONE BIT. In fact, it's helped the scenario end GROW.

So stop your whining, and if you don't like it then HUSH!

Cledford had it right, but you still insist on complaining when he was telling you to STOP complaining.

If you don't like realistic-looking markers, then tough cookies. THey've been around for years in a niche market, and that's where they will stay: a niche market.

I happen to like realistic-looking markers. I have yet to own one, but I'd love to own one when I get the money to spend. I'm currently contemplating a WS-66 SR, as soon as Dierwolf and gang finish testing the improved design.

[Z-man]

Here's some news for z-man and his ilk: realistic markers have been our for YEARS. This is NOT new at all. And guess what, it hasn't hurt our sport ONE BIT. In fact, it's helped the scenario end GROW.

Sounds like an ad I saw for Royal Gorge: "10 Million People Can't Be Wrong" (in refernce to the fact that I guess 10 million people visited the pace so it must be good.

Just becuase it exists does not make it right. That is like arguing that there has always been a nitch market for illicit drugs or stolen software or heck bit torrent. "Everybody does it" is no a valid excuse.

Still waiting for a response on the "realistic markers can get you shot" issue. Looks like I hit one of the AO springs!

bring it.

[cphilip]

Here's some news for z-man and his ilk: realistic markers have been our for YEARS. This is NOT new at all. And guess what, it hasn't hurt our sport ONE BIT. In fact, it's helped the scenario end GROW.

So stop your whining, and if you don't like it then HUSH!

Cledford had it right, but you still insist on complaining when he was telling you to STOP complaining.

.

Hey now! Thats not right either. He or anyone else of the opinion that its a bad idea has just as much right to express that as anyone else. And Calvin NEVER told anyone to shut up. Never....

I for one think its a bad idea. But I can see Calvins point too. When it comes to paintball we must all ban together least devided we fall. But I certainly expect there to be devisions amongst us as to whats enough and whats not. Where to draw the line so to speak. So lets not be telling anyone to shut up and quit expressing what they think IS that line...

[Z-man]

I figured you be watching this thread....


I suspect that this will degrade but in the interest of hearing from the lot of you that support the sim-makrer design I would like to hear how you justify it?

Heck if there were no consequences for it I would want to play with a sweet looking assault rifle mock up too! What guy would not what to do that?

BUT I think that as a paintall community (heck as good citizens) its our responsibility to present a clear and positive image for the sport.

MAKE NO MISTAKE OR CONVULSION: The problem is not the 99% of us who have this understanding, its the 1% that can destroy it for the rest of us. I have NO doubt that you here know when it is appropriate and when it is not to pull out and play with your sim but since ANYONE can buy it, that includes the idiots.

What is more damaging and dangerous? The fool with the neon Spyder or the fool with the sim-AK47?

And again, choosing to make them look real (and I mean REALLY real not just black color) help our sport how?

Perhaps I need to go dig up one of those articles about a police man shooting a kid who was carrying a Beretta water pistol that looks the same and the real thing. When you have incidents like Columbine happening, its NOT unreasonable to assume that a kid is touting a live firearm. Now tell me again, this is just fine and is not going to cause a problem? Sounds like faith to me

[Sir_Brass]

I see their complaints, but they really are blowing things out of proportion.

And the reason I told them to hush isn't b/c of them. No offense, but I hear about this topic FAR too much and I just get sick of the people saying "oh, it's BAD for our sport! OH NO!! WE NEED TO BAN THESE TO PROTECT PAINTBALL" (that's not a direct quote, but it's the tone that come out of their mouths).

And the thing that I SEE from these posts (though not specifically stated) is that this is a new problem, a new development that must be countered. Thing is that this has been around for a long while and has NOT hurt our sport yet.

The key to it staying that way is to keep sim markers to the niche market where only those who are willing to go to the trouble to looking for these markers and be responsible and committed players will own them.

THe milsim community is one of the most responsible and self-policing communities in paintball. AS A COMMUNITY, milsim players do NOT tolerate cheating in any form, they are VERY sportsman like: being very diplomats of the sport, and play to have fun. The only difference is that milsimers AS A COMMUNITY like to use realistic-looking markers and play paintball as if it were a wargame. These are the guys who, if they had the opportunity, would volunteer to be the OP FOR during an Army ROTC detachment's training day when they use paintball to train. These are the guys who loved to play war as little boys. These are the guys who like full blown scenario b/c it gives them a chance to try out large theater-spanning battle tactics and strategies. These are the guys who love the sport. Don't cast down what kind of markers they use, b/c chances are that they're more responsible with their realistic-looking markers than some TWiBs are with their Timmies and Matrixes and 03 shockers.

Most of the time, you can pick out a milsim player, b/c unless it's during a day of play, you'll only see his marker out of it's opaque and non descript protective case only when it's disassembled for cleaning. Milsim players AS A COMMUNITY (I say this b/c as in all communities, there are a fair share of idiots) do NOT display their realistic markers openly. They know that they look realistic and treat them as such. Also, AS A COMMUNITY, they are much more careful with their markers, b/c they treat them like firearms whenever a gas or paint source is even ATTACHED.

This is the community that uses the realistic markers you folks think are such a bad idea. This is why I say you are wrong. B/c the realistic marker demands a more responsible owner, and as it turns out, the guys who DO own realistic markers are among the breed of paintballers who are VERY responsible owners.

[dansim]

I figured you be watching this thread....


What is more damaging and dangerous? The fool with the neon Spyder or the fool with the sim-AK47?




the neon spyder because it was probally bought at walmart by a thug, while the sim ak will be at least a 450 investment, not exactly the kinda dough you drop for vandilism

i see absolutely no problem seeing markers that look like real guns, as long as all markers are used responsibley there wont be any problems

[Sir_Brass]

the neon spyder because it was probally bought at walmart by a thug, while the sim ak will be at least a 450 investment, not exactly the kinda dough you drop for vandilism

i see absolutely no problem seeing markers that look like real guns, as long as all markers are used responsibley there wont be any problems


THis is my take on the issue (in a nutshell. part of my full stance is in my dissertation on the previous page :D :p) as well. Milsim markers are far too expensive for your average brainless idiot to pick up, whereas a cheap spyder is.

And what I see as MORE of a problem is that the brainless idiot could very likely pickup a sear tripping electro at walmart. now he can cause even MORE damage with it. That's much more dangerous than a guy picking up a mechanical wg-65 and paying $450 for it.

[Z-man]

This is the community that uses the realistic markers you folks think are such a bad idea. This is why I say you are wrong. B/c the realistic marker demands a more responsible owner, and as it turns out, the guys who DO own realistic markers are among the breed of paintballers who are VERY responsible owners.

And I would aggree 100% with that. Those things are not cheap and the people who buy them are most likely going to be that kind.

key words most likely

No its insane to think that a manufcturer can control where every marker goes. That's what those weak suace lawyers use to excuse bad behavor "oh the gun didn't have a proper safety! blah blah blah"

ITS AN INANIMATE OBJECT

But! I still think it’s too much of a problem. I still think you might get shot if you are stupid with one of them. You WONT get shot (by the law) if you are carying a non-sim-marker



the neon spyder because it was probally bought at walmart by a thug, while the sim ak will be at least a 450 investment, not exactly the kinda dough you drop for vandilism.

A fool is a fool. Who might the police shoot if they see that? not the Spyder...

[dansim]

A fool is a fool. Who might the police shoot if they see that? not the Spyder...
i can almost guarantee(sp) both people would get shot if placed in similar situations

[Z-man]

And what I see as MORE of a problem is that the brainless idiot could very likely pickup a sear tripping electro at walmart. now he can cause even MORE damage with it. That's much more dangerous than a guy picking up a mechanical wg-65 and paying $450 for it.

See now that is not the issue as I see it. If you were worried about how fast someone can shoot a marker thus hurting more people in a shorter time then you would have to argue against fast cheap electros. but see you are missing my point.

REAL LOOKING GUNS CAN= POLICE SHOOT YOU

fools can buy a cheap gun or an expensive gun and shoot people. I see it as more of a "do you see a differnce bewteen simply arresting them vs. ending them all together?"

This is not about shooting more paint this is about getting shot for running around with a sim-marker

[Z-man]

i can almost guarantee(sp) both people would get shot if placed in similar situations

The police can shoot you for shooting at people with a paint gun? Can any law enforcement people comment?

[Sir_Brass]

But as of yet no milsim marker has been used for vandalism. And I think that the police would be likely to shoot the vandal with the spyder b/c w/o proper protection, a paintball gun has the ability to be deadly if you're hit in the right spot, and much more likely to cause grievous injury (loose an eye).

The thing is that the milsim marker is simply too expensive to be much of a threat for vandalism. The cheap syder is. THe fact is that the cheap syder IS a current tool-of-choice for a pball vandal, whereas the milsim marker is not.

Until there's a problem with milsim markers getting people into trouble, then don't worry about it. Worry about the problems at hand. And I can tell you that the cheap walmart spyder is FAR more of a problem than any milsim marker.

[cphilip]

But as of yet no milsim marker has been used for vandalism.

You would be foolish to think thats is so. A lot of vandalism occurs and no one ever knows the looks of the paintball marker involved. And if it has not happened it WILL happen. (thats one of Calvins points... no one distinguishes)

Oh sure.. your likely to get shot anyway. No matter the marker. If the Policeman thinks his life is in danger and cannot tell.... then your dead. But there is a tiny bit of chance that he is going to be able to recognise a red emag with tank hanging off of it as a paintball marker. And MAYBE he will chose to wait. If he sees one like that one shown at the begining of this thread where the tank is hidden inside and it looks EXACTLY like a gun I suspect that slim chance is now NONE.

Thats all I am saying here. Not that they will not shoot you. But there might be a chance if its odd looking and has a visible tank and all. Maybe....

[00Buckshot]

A little bird whispered in my ear this morning that our web site got posted on AGD’s and Tippmann’s forums. I appreciate all of your insights – it’s very interesting - that is the differences in opinions expressed on each forum.

Although our company is new, it consists of both former military special operations and law enforcement members. Some of your points are valid, but this is the wrong forum for a company like ours to make a stance – we would definitely be in the minority and get chewed up by you guys... then again, debates are healthy and constructive…

I was also a police officer and about seven years ago I almost put a .45 caliber hydroshock from my Sig Sauer into a 9 year-old boy holding a toy .357 magnum. He told me later that he was playing “cops and robbers.” …Madison Avenue near the United Center (when it was the Chicago Stadium) wasn’t the ideal place to play this game, especially with a real cop. Because of my own experiences and collective nature, I didn’t drop the hammer and the boy is living today. Regardless of opinions, in the night, a Tac-One or E-Mag, can easily look like a Tec 9… take a look: http://www.impactsites2000.com/site3/images2/tec9ls.jpg. I think the one thing that will give a marker away regardless of what it looks like – the big hopper on top. The issue is mute though, because it comes down to the maturity of the owner or responsibility of their parent / guardian – don’t point anything at a cop and if tells you drop it - you do, without question or hesitation.

The type of marker that you purchase and use out on the field is a matter of preference of the player. Our goal is to reach the growing scenario and big game paintball market: Those players that dress up in fatigues, ghillie suits and tactical vests (like the COPS911 vest Tom did in 2003 D-Day). It has the biggest growth potential because anybody can go out and play and have fun. Not to say they can’t have fun on a speedball course, but more often than not, most walk-ons get smoked pretty quickly. In my opinion, nothing is worse than getting your butt handed to you by a team of 14 year-olds (no disrespect intended – you are much faster and nimble than I.) For a 34 year old, slightly over weight, former Paratrooper with bad knees, I prefer to fall back on what I know…. small unit tactics, surprise and stealth. I can apply my skills better in a scenario game and get back to what I loved about being in the Army. From our market research, I’m not alone - Look at Pro-Team’s Products and their new web site – I believe Tom had a hand in this? I recall talking to him about the cost of Pro Team’s Commando F/X last year at Paintball Sam’s.

There is no blame to be placed on a specific type of marker that might be “ruining the sport” – there will always be people, for whatever reason, that want go after and ban anything that shoots a projectile or remotely resembles a gun. With regards to the argument that it looks too real, our other focus is Military and Law Enforcement Training where in order for the training to be effective, it needs to be realistic.

I think I’ll go make some popcorn and watch the next round of posts to this thread.

[cphilip]

Welcome to AO!

Yea this is getting fun

As I see it we have two debates going on here...

Are they bad for the sport or are they bad for your health! :D

[Mckevern]

Police will shoot a kid with a marker that looks real or not.

When it comes down to the bottom line, a marker CAN be dangerious.

Personally if someone is walking around in public with a marker, Mil-sim or not, they're begging to have problems with the police.

When you get right down to it, it isn't the marker that will get the person shot, it is the person.

If a cop feels like he is in a threating situation he will use lethal force. If the idiot with a marker starts pointing it around ... he'll get shot .... maybe in the arm, leg, or even a sucking chest wound, but the idiot will get shot.

[cphilip]

Police will shoot a kid with a marker that looks real or not.

When it comes down to the bottom line, a marker CAN be dangerious.

Personally if someone is walking around in public with a marker, Mil-sim or not, they're begging to have problems with the police.

When you get right down to it, it isn't the marker that will get the person shot, it is the person.

If a cop feels like he is in a threating situation he will use lethal force. If the idiot with a marker starts pointing it around ... he'll get shot .... maybe in the arm, leg, or even a sucking chest wound, but the idiot will get shot.

Not only that but possible a Darwin Award candidate too!

That I think is the point. Sometime we get caught up in the distinction. And the some of you are pointing out that maybe we should not be. We make distinctions that the rest of the world maybe does not. Perhaps I am guilty of that myself.

[Sir_Brass]

A little bird whispered in my ear this morning that our web site got posted on AGD’s and Tippmann’s forums. I appreciate all of your insights – it’s very interesting - that is the differences in opinions expressed on each forum.

Although our company is new, it consists of both former military special operations and law enforcement members. Some of your points are valid, but this is the wrong forum for a company like ours to make a stance – we would definitely be in the minority and get chewed up by you guys... then again, debates are healthy and constructive…

I was also a police officer and about seven years ago I almost put a .45 caliber hydroshock from my Sig Sauer into a 9 year-old boy holding a toy .357 magnum. He told me later that he was playing “cops and robbers.” …Madison Avenue near the United Center (when it was the Chicago Stadium) wasn’t the ideal place to play this game, especially with a real cop. Because of my own experiences and collective nature, I didn’t drop the hammer and the boy is living today. Regardless of opinions, in the night, a Tac-One or E-Mag, can easily look like a Tec 9… take a look: http://www.impactsites2000.com/site3/images2/tec9ls.jpg. I think the one thing that will give a marker away regardless of what it looks like – the big hopper on top. The issue is mute though, because it comes down to the maturity of the owner or responsibility of their parent / guardian – don’t point anything at a cop and if tells you drop it - you do, without question or hesitation.

The type of marker that you purchase and use out on the field is a matter of preference of the player. Our goal is to reach the growing scenario and big game paintball market: Those players that dress up in fatigues, ghillie suits and tactical vests (like the COPS911 vest Tom did in 2003 D-Day). It has the biggest growth potential because anybody can go out and play and have fun. Not to say they can’t have fun on a speedball course, but more often than not, most walk-ons get smoked pretty quickly. In my opinion, nothing is worse than getting your butt handed to you by a team of 14 year-olds (no disrespect intended – you are much faster and nimble than I.) For a 34 year old, slightly over weight, former Paratrooper with bad knees, I prefer to fall back on what I know…. small unit tactics, surprise and stealth. I can apply my skills better in a scenario game and get back to what I loved about being in the Army. From our market research, I’m not alone - Look at Pro-Team’s Products and their new web site – I believe Tom had a hand in this? I recall talking to him about the cost of Pro Team’s Commando F/X last year at Paintball Sam’s.

There is no blame to be placed on a specific type of marker that might be “ruining the sport” – there will always be people, for whatever reason, that want go after and ban anything that shoots a projectile or remotely resembles a gun. With regards to the argument that it looks too real, our other focus is Military and Law Enforcement Training where in order for the training to be effective, it needs to be realistic.

I think I’ll go make some popcorn and watch the next round of posts to this thread.


Can I expect to see you at D-Day 2004? If so, drop by the TTM campsite (we'll be very easy to find, and most of us will be in the Allied 2nd Ranger battalion :)), and hang out :).

I think the point you brought up was very valid in that any paintball gun and RESEMBLE a gun at night. Now, an experienced officer might NOT shoot, but who can tell with a less experienced one. That's why I said that the kid with the spyder is more likely to get shot, b/c it's more likely that a cop will encounter a paintball vandal with a syder than he will with a kid toting a very expensive and high quality milsim marker for use in vandalism, and it's also more likely that the cop will be of less experience and thus more likely to see the outline of what LOOKS INITIALLY like an assault weapon and pull the trigger.


For the debaters:
My take is the bottomline is that the marker doesn't matter. You shouldn't be toting one out and around in public like that. If you're just transporting the marker, then use a case. Doesn't matter if it's an emag or an ATS AT-16. Both are likely to get you shot if you're seen by a cop at night with either in your hands. Remember, his combat instincts will kick into gear and if he sees what AT FIRST looks like a firearm, he will be more likely to shoot. And ALL paintball markers resemble firearms enough for a cop to be warry when he sees on at night and sees more shadows than clear pictures.

[The Deacon]

Police are trained to shoot last. Taking a life is the final solution.

I remember a long time ago when I was playing in National Forest land with an AT-85 (pretty realistic). Some cops came over, so we halted the game, and they were very casual. They even complimented me on my marker. They simply told us that if we heard sirens, just come out with our markers in the air (they loved the full auto on it ,too! :D ).

How can you get shot using a marker? On an established field this is a non-issue. For outlaw ball, you'd pull up to the scene with the pat pat pat pat in the background with kids in masks and about 1000 other things that kill the "holy crap, there's a gun fight going on! theory" Seriously, even if a kid does crank a shot or 2 off at a cop, how can you not notice the PAT PAT as compared to the blast of a gun? The paint splotch is pretty apparent, too. Cops know, they're paid to know. The most a civilian would do is call a cop, and again, they're paid to know.

I used to use "milsim" markers, but they were too limiting to my varied playstyle. I do know that for a kid that wants to recklessly vandalize crap, even 100 bucks is too much. I'd be more concerned about vandals using cheap airsoft guns than a paintball marker, since you can get 'em on E-bay for well under 100 bucks.

[Sir_Brass]

Right, you're talking about in a playing enviroment where it's obvious that the cops will know what's going on. And I totally agree with you.

However, the scenario I'm referring to is on the street with someone walking out in the open with a paintball marker. IN this situation the person is either a vandal looking to do damage or just a plain idiot who it toting his gun around in the open when he shouldn't be. In this situation, the cop is going to be far more warry and more suspecting of the person. I know I would be.

[00Buckshot]

Can I expect to see you at D-Day 2004? If so, drop by the TTM campsite (we'll be very easy to find, and most of us will be in the Allied 2nd Ranger battalion :)), and hang out :).

Yep. I'll be there, although I hope you don't mind hanging with some Germans - I was going to try out for the Rangers, but this year with our product it seamed to fit - Steyr, Austria... anyway we will be arriving Wednesday morning and camping the week. I'll look for you.

[The Deacon]

Jeez, you people read/type too fast. :D

First question is, WHAT ARE YOU DOING? Any and every responsible paintball player knows to not run around the neighborhood with your marker.

If you're dumb enough to go out and vandalize property in the first place, I hate to say it, but you have it coming. Most vandals are out for thrills, and if the cops show, they turn into the blubbering, cooperative "I'm sorry, just please don't tell my parents!" types. :D

[Mckevern]

I was playing some outlawball as you call it back in the day before Semi's hit the market. I still remember the day when I was at Paintball Sam's with my KP3 when Tom walked in with his AutoMag.

Anyway ... living out in Crystal Lake IL, we had PLENTY of forest and grasslands that didn't belong to anyone and was literally IN THE MIDDLE OF NO WHERE ...

One day I'm sitting in a ditch waiting to spring a trap when I hear two people walking up behind me.

Lucky for me I knew I was the only one there and everyone else was in front of me. If I thought someone was sneaking up behind I wouldn't be typing here today.

I glanced over my shoulder expecting to see some people out walking their dog, or some people hiking, or who knows what. But I was going to ask them to stop while I warn everyone else that was playing out there.

What was really behind me was two police officers in full riot gear with mossberg's .... and they were not pointing them in the air.

To say I almost soiled myself in two different ways is not far from the truth.

Before they said anything to me, I slowly put my KP off to the side by the barrel and lay down with my hands over my head. All the while telling them it's just paintball ....

From that moment on, I stopped playing outlaw ball. The only way I will ever play it again is if it is out in the middle of nowhere AND is private property.

I will also NEVER carry my WG65, 98C, A5, Pro-Lite, PMI 1, PMI LB, KP3, Zeus and RT Pro out in public unless it's in a case, box, or huge locker box. I will also only fill my tanks at the field. That way if I were to get pulled over they can't accuse me of anything because their not powered.

Even if it is a paintball marker, it CAN shoot other projectiles. I know one person that I stop playing with was able to put a Chap-Stik through dry wall with his Nelspot, makes you wonder what today's markers can do. This is the first time admitting this, but my friends and I organized for this kid to loose his paintball marker and never get it back. He was just to unpredictable and a danger to us for him to have one.

[The Deacon]

What I would have to say is were you shot? Are you dead because of your marker? Would you have shot at them? Neither would any sane person. Compliance is key.

[Sir_Brass]

Even if it is a paintball marker, it CAN shoot other projectiles. I know one person that I stop playing with was able to put a Chap-Stik through dry wall with his Nelspot, makes you wonder what today's markers can do. This is the first time admitting this, but my friends and I organized for this kid to loose his paintball marker and never get it back. He was just to unpredictable and a danger to us for him to have one.

A friend of mine told me last year about a friend of his shooting marbles out of a paintball marker. My friend told me that those marbles could SHATTER solid wooden fence posts :eek:!

[Mckevern]

I wasn't shot then, and I haven't now.

My point is that if I was a tad less intelligent, I might have spun and fired.

And it looked like the cops were expecting that and couldn't tell what I was carrying. The wood stock made them think I had a shotgun. I'm just happy I had my head on straight and looked first.

My point is that it doesn't matter what you have. You point a marker at anyone in public, no matter what it looks like, and you're asking to get hurt.

I'm just not going to play outlaw unless it's on someone's property and out in the middle of no where. At least then you call the department and let them know and they don't walk in blazing on to private property.

Do I blame the cops for their reactions .... HELL NO ....

[trains are bad]

If you think that paintball is "safe" from anti-gun/anti-violence types you need to think again.

True! Give support to the milsims! I will fight tooth and nail to prevent anyone from telling someone how thier marker needs to look. That said, I think firearm looking markers are stupid as hell. But this is the same thing that's happening in the firearm world-the attitude of "it doesn't look like my deer rifle so why should I care if they ban it" etc.


Also, AS A COMMUNITY, they are much more careful with their markers, b/c they treat them like firearms whenever a gas or paint source is even ATTACHED

You know, this is something that has bothered me ever since I started paintball. I want to see people start treating thier markers like the LTL device it is and not a lasertag stick. TOURNEY players are the worst at this! And other non-milsim players. I have never felt as nervous around hardcore scenario players as I have in the pits at tournaments. Just because it's pretty don't make it safe...

The reason I dislike milsim markers is function. I basically think it's stupid to spend the effort on looks that don't improve the function at all. An autococker is beautiful because it was designed as an autococker-pure function-and not designed to look like something it's not. Dolling a up a marker to look like a firearm is stupid IMO.

Again I fully support milsim markers.

[The Deacon]

I don't play outlaw on public land anymore either, too many risks for too little reward. Like I said, it was a long time ago.

Still, I don't think realistic markers will make any difference. If they are used on organized fields by responsible people, they are fine. Everything has it's few bad apples. Crap will happen, and if it has a barrel, trigger and is a color anywhere close to black, it probably looks real enough to anyone at a glance, and with milsim markers, they still have quirks that betray their realism if you look at them for more than a few seconds.

[Sir_Brass]

The reason I dislike milsim markers is function. I basically think it's stupid to spend the effort on looks that don't improve the function at all. An autococker is beautiful because it was designed as an autococker-pure function-and not designed to look like something it's not. Dolling a up a marker to look like a firearm is stupid IMO.

Again I fully support milsim markers.

And that's a perfectly legit and reasonable reason to not use them. MOre power to you.

If y'all notice my sig, you'll see an animate gif of a blazer. That is MY marker. She's my primary by far. THose of you who know about the blazer know it's beauty is in it's simplicity. No frills, just totally awesome function. I love it like that.

One of the things that kept me from spending my money on a milsim marker over a blazer was that I wouldn't getting any more function out of the nearly equally priced milsim marker as I would out of the blazer for a similar price.

Now that I own a blazer, however, I'm more inclined to go get a milsim marker, however, only one that would have alot of functionality as well. Reason i'd get the WS-66 SR: that hop-up barrel of theirs (I'll reserve judgement till dierwolf and crew fully test it out, though), a flatline function in a straight barrel. It'd have functionality that my blazer wouldn't, and thus I'd be more inclined to own it. But if testing reveals taht that isn't necessarilly true, then I'll probably get a Typhoon next.

I'll take functionality over beauty any day, but that still doesn't keep me from drooling over some gorgeous milsim markers :D. heh heh heh

[Mckevern]

With a Typhoon you get FUNCTION AND BEAUTY!!!!

I have to send my PMI stock pile in to get a Typhoon and Squall made.

[Sir_Brass]

With a Typhoon you get FUNCTION AND BEAUTY!!!!

I have to send my PMI stock pile in to get a Typhoon and Squall made.

Imagine this then :D. Typhoon classic with all black powder coating and black highlights, dual stabs, strap, back bottle with gas-thru stock connected to bottomlined fem stab (for on-gun set-up and also allow a stock), sight ring, and 20 oz. light-weight anti-siphon CO2 tank with on/off valve, a dye 45 single trigger hinge frame (installed by Allan), and custom shartely wood grips.

mmmmm, I think that's going to be my next PPS gun. Either that, or a scratch-built hurricane :D.

Needless to say, my next PPS gun is a LONG ways off (b/c I can't afford to have it made :cool: )

[Z-man]

Gah I run out for a quick breakfast and I have to read another 10 posts!
Yes I am back! Round 2

So there has been all sorts of claims thrown about in the last few hours.

Sim-guns have never been implicated in vandalism,

the police will shoot you one way or the other...


So partly to verify what McKevevn said

Police will shoot a kid with a marker that looks real or not.

I decided to call up my local Sheriffs department. Our kindly Sheriff spent about 10 minutes on the phone with me answering my question. And here are some interesting things he told me.

1- The police WILL NOT SHOOT YOU if they can tell that the thing you are carrying is a paintball marker. They can arrest you obviously but the point is THEY WILL NOT SHOOT YOU IF THEY CAN TELL ITS A PAINTBALL MARKER.

2- Now if they cannot tell (say its under low light conditions or poor visibility) the officer has to make that judgment cal and is completely justified if he shot some kid running around with a paint marker or a BB gun or something

The sheriff said that the silhouette of the marker is really the big issue. Colorful anodizing is not as big a giveaway as what it looks like. Most often he gets reports of kids running around with airsoft guns and brandishing them at cars or whatnot and they can cause some serious problems.

I like what OOBuckshot said about this and I suspect that most cases the police make the right call. Still it does not make their job any easier to have to deal with the sim-guns regardless of how much an E-mag looks like a Tec9

Again, tis is NOT about what marker can do the most damage for your dollar this is about walking away alive vs a trip to the ER or the morgue.

If you make a marker that looks like a real gun that is all the more reason the poilceman will shoot you and that, IMO over rules any and all positive aspects of the sim gun as nice as they are. The consequences of NOT making them are much less than if you DO make them.

EDITED for pitifull spelling

[Mckevern]

I should have said it WILL get you shot ...

I should have said it CAN get you shot ...

It is up to the cop to make the call .... I just wish 00Buckshot could continue to use that judgement cause I know he's shot me in the butt on more than one occasion. Granted the one time was a cut throat game ..... :)

Either way I had a REAL close call. The officer told all of us when we grouped up that they would have shot us given the choice. Maybe they were trying to scare us. It worked. We were already being safe back then but we're safer than that now.

Not to start another debat here but I thought Z-Man's point of arguement was that a Mil-Sim is more likely to get you shot .... I know from personal experience that it doesn't matter what you have. The situation will decide for you if you're stupid enough get yourself there.

[Drizit]

so z-man if it's the profile that will get you hit at night, did you consider stock class markers like the phantom?, i use a stock class phantom most of the time (don't need as much money for paint) and without the 6pack it would look a lot like a real gun of some sort posibly with a scope (that being the feed tube) at night, that would get me just as shot as a WG-65 or a C98 with no hopper, however a WG-65 or the AUG at the top with a hopper is much less likely to make a cop think i have a real gun and shoot me. now if you people want to make a differance to this sport perhaps you should concentrate less on what the marker looks like and more on educating people not to misuse them. take the Armotec forum i have a pair of zeus's so i curse by there every now and then, that forum is populated mostly by kids who don't know any better or by iresoponisble adults, there are some good people there but they seem to be out numbered. I think helping teach people to be responsible would be a much better use of our colective time.


</rant>

[Konigballer]

i too had a similar "cop roundup" experience back in '97 I think. We were playing on a friends large woodland property but an old lady neighbor called the cops. So these two dorks come walking out there with hands on their guns and their screaming at the top of their lungs for us to get out of the woods. They were obviously nervous at first, we were all packing black guns, prolites mostly, but once they saw we all had face masks on they got even more pissed because they had to tramp through brush in their newly drycleaned pants.

I would have hated to see what might have happened if the first one of us that they encountered was packing one of those nice milsim markers, face mask or not. Cops run on survival instinct, their supposed to be able to calmly acess threats and what not but the ones I have encountered have always been very twitchy. I dont blame them, every day they go out and they have no real idea what will happen to them during the course of their shift. We've all probably read about police shooting guys reaching for their wallets and crap like that.

When you deal with people like that in any capacity, it would be alot safer to be packing a bright colored marker :o

p.s. the reason I refered to the cops as dorks in my story was because after they were done with their twenty minute attempt to intimidate us all, they tried to play nice and wondered if we had "ever heard of laser tag", they were apparently big fans of it and thought we would find that more fun........ :rolleyes: dorks :p

[1ofkind]

Oh great now all the fat mommies are gona get rid of paintball... Thats all they need to see.

[brightman]

Interesting thread! I guess this is the part where I play the devil's advocate. Alot of concerns are that police officers will shoot someone for carrying these milsim guns. Well, as a police officer maybe I can shed a little light on the subject. I dont personally own a milsim marker but if I was into scenerio games I probably would. I think they are cool to mess around with but a little impracticle when on the speed ball field.
Typically police officers respond to calls from citizens who see something (guys dressed in camo running around the woods behind their house with somthing that appears to be a gun). I have made calls where guys are playing in the woods with paintball guns, bb guns, and real guns. My point is that we are not going to take chances on these types of calls and we cant just assume that all the calls are kids playing paintball.
Its very rare that I see paintball guns on the street. Most things we see are the realistic looking bb guns and airsoft guns that are used to rob banks, people, ect... When it comes down to it you can buy a walther ppk replica bb gun for 33 dollars at accademy. For $100 you can buy a .22 cal rifle from Academy and for $200 you can buy a 12 gauge shotgun. The people who pay $800-1000 for a mil-sim paintball gun typically arent much of a threat to us.
As far is the image of the sport you have to remember that there are two different types of play and rec-ball/scenerio paintballers are the majority. And when it comes down to it our sport is based on going in the woods and hunting each other. Why hide it, its fun. I understand making it more publicly appealing but our roots are our roots.

[doc_Zox]

In Annapolis MD this year, we had a bill to ban the sales of all toy guns in Maryland, unless it had a safety orange barrel end. It died in committee, so we never found out if it would have applied to paintball...

One of the pro gun Senators asked "what would happen if a criminal painted the end of a real gun orange?" "Would a police officer pause while being drawn down on?"

If any AOers don't think the Brady-ites do not want to end paintball, you should do some poking about the MMM website

If you want to do some real good for the sport
find a pro gun candidate this fall and volunteer to hand out flyers

Most of the anti gun legislation happens because the affected folkes do not get involved.

i for one, enjoy making congress critters look like idiots in front of their constituents.

Sting them enough times and they will find something less controversial to bother.

Rock the vote!

dZ

[Target Practice]

Bad Idea. Talk about royaly screwing the image of paintball. Nope, as much as I hate to say it (cuz I don't especially like the looks of them), markers like the DM4 help keep paintball "public friendly".

I think I had better reword my statement at the beginning of the thread. When I think of Milsim guns, I think of Rusty's Paintball Gear (http://www.rustyspaintballgear.com/). If you browse around this site, you will find reproductions of many types of military arms. Here is a list of some of them:

M249 SAW
MG42
M14
M4
MP5
Thompson
M1 Carbine
M60
H&K PSG1 Sniper
G3
And my favorite:
Browning .30-Cal

What I want noticed is, not only the ultra-realism of these markers, is the cost. These things are expensive. Granted, they are beautiful, and I would play with them in a heartbeat, but they are out of the price range of most run of the mill players, IMO.

Now, I'm all for milsims if they are able to be isolated for scenario-ball. I mean, I would love to be able to play in the D-Day game with their M1 Carbine:
http://www.rustyspaintballgear.com/images/inventory/m1carbineright474.jpg
But I just dont feel quite right knowing that just anybody can own one. It just seems like it would do more harm than good.

Conclusion: I love firearms. I love paintball. I love paintball guns that look like firearms. I hate when people pull their kids away from me when I am reading APG in Barnes&Noble. I hate having people asky my why I practice "killing people". I think that a massed-produced milsim marker would only reinforce this behavior, and have negative reprocussions on our sport.

My $.04

-Ryan

[brightman]

Target practice, your right in these guns being ultra realistic. I think the price of the guns are what is going to keep them out of the hands of the thugs or people who dont relize the resposibility of what they have. I ahd to laugh at the prices of the guns on the web site posted above most of the guns are more expensive than the real thing.

AR-15 - 700-800
M4 spyder - 700 (and its still shoots like a spyder)

As long as they keep the prices as high as they are I think the only people buying the markers are going to be hard core scenerio players.