Upgrading to a different gun

[black tri star]

I am at a point in my game were my skill has taken me as far as possible, but my gun is slowing me down, and some times rendering me as effective as a newbie on the field. To give you an idea, my balls bounce at 25-50 feet when runing the fps limit, the balls are inconsistent; varing from fps, range, and grouping. I have already upgraded the barrel to a 14" and the hammer spring. Should I just bite the bullet, play a few more games, and save up enough money to buy an E-mag or sell the gun and get an electronic spyder. At the moment I am leaning more towards the E-mag. What can I do to bring my gun up to my level?

[Duck Hunt]

It might help to know what kind of gun you have?

Sean

[jpdgas]

If it was me and i could afford an emag, there would be no choice!

Electro spyders are good, reliable intro electro markers, but they are still an electro spyder and not an emag, if you get my drift.

[OldSchoolVM68]

I am at a point in my game were my skill has taken me as far as possible, but my gun is slowing me down, and some times rendering me as effective as a newbie on the field. To give you an idea, my balls bounce at 25-50 feet when runing the fps limit, the balls are inconsistent; varing from fps, range, and grouping. I have already upgraded the barrel to a 14" and the hammer spring. Should I just bite the bullet, play a few more games, and save up enough money to buy an E-mag or sell the gun and get an electronic spyder. At the moment I am leaning more towards the E-mag. What can I do to bring my gun up to my level?
First of all, dont get the spyder. Second dont buy/talk to maximum paintball, they are bias agenst mags, and WAY overcharge. I would highly recomend the mag, but look at some other guns that might be in the price range there, like BKO's, Imps, Omen's Cockers and maby some angels. One of the guys i play with (plays for RIP Maximums team) is selling a Angel Speed Demon for $800 lmk if yoru intrested.

[Gabriel]

If it was me and i could afford an emag, there would be no choice!

Electro spyders are good, reliable intro electro markers, but they are still an electro spyder and not an emag, if you get my drift.

WHAT!?! The good upgraded spyder and an e-mag are on par. There is soooo much stuff for a spyder. not only that, but there is a new 90° frame for an e-spyder. Shoot which one you like, and then decide. In the end, if your spyder is to be as good as an e-mag, it's not going to be a money thing, as the spyder will still be expensive.

[CaliMagFan]

gabe, if i can call you gabe.....did you just say that a good/upgraded electro spyder and an emag are on par????? are you so full of you know what that your eyes are brown?.... if you consider a good upgraded e-spyder an intimidator... than yes,,, they're on par.... but man...spyders dont have antichop, they have about 4x the reciprocating mass... and they are milled to crap tolerances, meaning inconsistant performance.... get my drift????

-kyro

[warpedside671]

It's good to hear that you are leaning towards an E-mag...rock on.Fisrt of all what is your current gun you play with?Your budget also has alot to do with your next choice of marker.If you have enough to get a E-mag then do so you'll never go wrong owning one.If your budget is not all that big ,a spyder does'nt sound all that bad ,the spyder(electro) may have more upgrades but you can't compare preformance with a elecrto spyder and a E-mag. Mags have better consistancy....Good luck on what ever marker you choose to purchase IMO the E-mag is the way to go :o

[black tri star]

I am Running a black Maxx, i know it's a wal-mart gun, and under my current budget I can upgrade to the Emag no prob.

[Digits]

Get a trix.. If you can handle playing with a bit heavier gun (if you had enough for a DM4 then it wouldn't be heavier at all) then this is the gun for you..

Seriouse.. I've shot many of markers.. From shockers, to e-cockers, to BKO's, to trix's.. And absolutly nothing has compared to a trix with a pipe kit for me. Plus they are very simple guns, very reliable (or so I think, as long as you lube them I can't see you having a problem), they are wicked fast.. And I mean wicked fast, especially with that Tadoe board and eyes.. They have no kick.. There just beautifull guns :)..

Except you will find yourself going threw alot more paint.. Half the time I end up borrowing a friends trix when I play, and I normally, with whatever gun I own at the time (always e) only go threw 1-2 pods and a hopper a game.. Now whenever I use the trix thats at pretty much atleast 3 pods a game..

[OldSchoolVM68]

Seriouse.. I've shot many of markers.. From shockers, to e-cockers, to BKO's, to trix's.. And absolutly nothing has compared to a trix with a pipe kit for me. Plus they are very simple guns, very reliable (or so I think, as long as you lube them I can't see you having a problem), they are wicked fast.. And I mean wicked fast, especially with that Tadoe board and eyes.. They have no kick.. There just beautifull guns :)..

I think your completly bias for a trix, ive shot MANY guns also, and i think FOR THE PRICE, the BKO is the way to go, 270 for the gun, $50 for a good barrel. You can run CO2 through it, and with the right barrel its going to be as accurate as any other gun out there, and stock they have 20bps capiblities. Tri star, if you have the money and can afford it, get the emag, its going to be as good as any other gun out there for the price.

[GT]

a BKO is awful,

if you are looking to get into some more serious play without spending serious coin I would go with a used Emag or Angel LED, futhermore if its your only gun the emag is where its at.

jb

[FalconGuy016]

Who Said The Emag And Spyder Are On Par?











........!!!!!!!!!

Go Shoot Both

[black tri star]

ok I've shot both guns i was thinking about buying, I understand how both guns work mechanically, proformance wise, but I am a back player who goes through a hopper and a pod a game, on average i rarely shot over 7 bps, i'm looking for accuracy and extreme reliability

[AGDlover]

ya look around maby you'd be better off with one of thoughs new Piranhas that have the eye and LCD screans look into one of thoughs

[tjmpaintball06]

ok 7 bps... get an evil omen, = wont chop, faster than 7, consistent velocity which equals better accuracy, upgrades starting to appear, looks cool, cheaper than emag and other crap.

[No sKiLLz]

ok I've shot both guns i was thinking about buying, I understand how both guns work mechanically, proformance wise, but I am a back player who goes through a hopper and a pod a game, on average i rarely shot over 7 bps, i'm looking for accuracy and extreme reliability

Back player using 1 pod and 1 hopper? I have to go with Digits on this, you need a Matrix. Nothing out there is stabler and easier to walk, and for all those monkeys out there crying bounce, I have three words for you...

FOUR POINT ZERO!!!

[jpdgas]

I still stand by the emag. you get the best of all worlds if you want an electro; dont need a backup, its fast if you feel the need for speed, but is also durable if you decide to rely on your playing skill instead of sitting down and threading a paint rope. Plus they can look killer and are somewhat rare over here on the west coast. Accuracy will only be affected by your barrel and paint, so any marker can be made accurate.

Then again, this is your marker. the best thing you can do is research, shoot the guns, decide how much you are willing to spend, and find a marker that fits your style. Usually people are more than happy to show off their markers and let you shoot them, so ask around at your field if yousee something you like.

[No sKiLLz]

Accuracy will only be affected by your barrel and paint, so any marker can be made accurate.

Stability effects accuracy. Nothing is more stable than a Matrix.

[tyrion2323]

I'd recommend the Omen or an upgraded BKO because I'm wondering - do you really need a $700+ marker if you're only shooting 350 rounds a game as a 'backman?'

Sounds to me like the best bet would be to invest in a BKO, an Omen or an Impulse and then upgrade them as you go along. Getting a BKO for $300, adding a new bolt, internals, etc is still only going to run you $500 tops, and it doesn't sound like you're pouring ropes of paint of of your barrel.

Jacob

[jpdgas]

If by stability you mean consistancy, then yes, accuracy is also effected by consistancy of the marker. But consistancy is also effected by your air source, any inline regs you may have, dirt in your system, and so on. Also, if your paint is out of round, you will have consistancy probs.

The consistancy of any valve in any marker is effected by what comes before and after it. I have an x-valved minimag and its consistancy changes with the paint put in it. Besides, accuracy is useless if the user dosnt know how to place a shot. Nothing against the matrix, but it isnt the only choice for a consistant marker.

[black tri star]

I am pretty decent back player, that doesn't need to use a hopper and four pods to keep people pinned down for the front players to advance, i would appreciate it more you people answered my question like jpdgas does. and not knock on the way I play

[shivors]

Ok...this might blow a few minds but I would go with the mag. I am a die hard Spyder fan but as others have said they dont have an available antichop YET* and they are not manufactured to the same high standards as an Mag or other higher class marker.

* Kingman has a marker with optical anti-chop in the pipe for this year.

Even at that the optical is a potential hassle with black shelled paint or an obscured eye.

The value in Kingman is that you can get a electro marker for 150.00, decent barrel for 50.00, an agitation loader for 50.00 and you can go 13bps (or faster in semi). That is a decent set for 250.00 base. Easy to maintain, tons of upgrades, and economical.

Another consideration should be the 2004 vert Autococker (ProStock). It is 350.00 and ready to go from the box....just add air. Of course it comes with it's own set of considerations.

[warpedside671]

Whoa trixies are good but don't get me wrong not all of us can afford a $1000
plus setup,They are solid markers and thry do rock but, if all Black Tri Star is looking for a good all around gun with consistancy and accuracy there alot of things that factor up aginst all of this.Hell I played some games with High end
tourney markers and I would sometimes get pinned or shot out by kids with spyders.So it goes to show that the player makes the Marker not the other way around.


Black Tri Star what ever marker you do decide to choose to play with I hope you get the best out of it, all in all I still stand with the E-mag if that is to much for your budget an RT UlE would also be nice soon I am getting one too.....Good luck

[Buff]

doesn't the PMI EVO have breakbeam eye's instead of reflection eye's?

[tyrion2323]

I am pretty decent back player, that doesn't need to use a hopper and four pods to keep people pinned down for the front players to advance, i would appreciate it more you people answered my question like jpdgas does. and not knock on the way I play

Nobody's knocking on the way you play, I was simply posing the question: if you only shoot 350 rounds a game as a back man, do you really need a $600+ marker?

It's a legitimate consideration. For what you play, it seems like an Omen, a BKO or an Impulse may be the best bet for you. You can use them stock and upgrade them as you progress. I know for a fact that an upgraded 2004 Impulse is an amazing marker, even though there are people who say "impulses suck" no matter what the circumstance.

Jacob

[jpdgas]

The price you should spend on a marker should not be based completely on the amount of paint you use in a game. I'm thinking you are associating cost with speed, which is only a small part of your marker when it comes down to it (i'm a minority on that opinion, i know). It is true that the speed capabilities of a marker increase with price, but so does quality (usually) and reliability (also usually), and looks (hopefully).

I hardly ever shoot more than 5-7 bps, because i dont need to. I play scenario ball and some speed ball, but my style of play is not dependant on flinging paint at some rediculous speed. Does this mean i shouldnt have a nice marker or that i should limit the cost to $200? no way. I spent a considerable amount of cash to put together my ideal mag. It boils down to finding a marker that you like and feels right. my mag has the capability to fling paint faster than i will ever need, but thats not why i have it. I have it because its bulletproof, it fits me, and it looks awesome.

The hardest part in making an educated decision is sorting through what is hype and what really works.

[1ofkind]

RT ULE, be patient!

[black tri star]

I do need a gun that has the spray and pray ability, there have bee occasions were I needed a high bps ie. covering three bunkers at once, and to be a mid range player when need, I've been looking around and found a few more guns. The Ule RT mag, the 2k3 shocker, the speed angel, and 2k3 impulse. After my next paycheck comes in all of these guns will be in price range. for a little idea of what I'm upgrading from, my gun with after market barrel and 20 oz. tank cost me $27 w/o shipping

[Timmee]

If you're considering the Impy, you should also consider the BM2K. I love mine, it's pretty easy to work on, and it's a reliable marker. The only gripe I have with the BM2K is the wiring harness, although a Vapor wiring harness solves that problem with thicker wires (it also comes with a high intensity LED and lighter microswitch).

[No sKiLLz]

By stable shooting platform I mean stable shooting platform. You said yourself you don't shoot long strings of paint, but back players need that ability, and a marker that is kicking around like a mexican jumping bean isn't going to be very accurate. It doesn't take much barrel movement to be 6-12 inches off the mark, so stability during sustained rate of fire makes a difference.

And the Matrix will change his game. It is the easiest marker out there to walk. I don't really care to argue the point, though. If he bothers to shoot one he will know what I am talking about.

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

Matrix, hands down. You can buy them brand new for like $825, comes with eyes and everything. You can also find some sick deals on used Matrices, I've seen fully upgraded LED's go for around 650-700 and nice LCD's for 700-750. Not only are they extremely fast, they have basically NO KICK, so every shot is dead on (with correct paint to barrel match of course). As long as you keep it lubed well, you should have no oring problems. It is also extremely upgradeable, so if you think it's not efficient enough or not fast enough stock, they have parts for you. Here would probably be the best trix setup for the money:

Matrix w/eyes ($825 brand new)
Tadao V4.0 ($100 brand new)
Evolve Bolt kit ($125 brand new)
SCM LPR ($85 brand new)

You can have one of the fastest most efficient guns out for $1135 all brand new. You can find a similar setup for about $800 used. Honestly, you don't have to upgrade it, the gun is plenty fast enough, and decently efficient with image bolt kit (stock) and LPR. If weight is an issue, they have places that will mill the gun completely for $100. Go for the matrix, you won't be disappointed, and also get a good nitrogen tank and a HALO B.

[m20power]

Hey there, Glad to see this post is getting so many replies so I guess I will add my little opinion.

The Matrix is a very fast gun and can be very accurate due to its design and lack of moving parts. Ive shot a non LCD version and got close to 20 bps by raking it with the stock trigger. In stock form it was a gas hob but as I belive someone mentioned you can make that a little better.

The mags are great guns. An engineers gun if I ever saw one. The new ULE guns with the X valve and ULT trigger can get pretty good speed and for 400 or so look at what you get. The valve alone is a 250.00 dollar part.

Impulses, can be as good as an angel with the right upgrades and no chops thanks to vision eyes. Pretty fast and once you mess with the trigger and put some magnets on it...mmm sexy.

BKO + B2K Well the BKO is around 290 new at the moment and I would take it over a "simmilarly priced" spyder any day. Ive seen used ones going for around 200. As someone said before after you get a new bolt to reduce kick and a new low preassure regulator to increase efficiancy its a very quick, accurate, light gun. The upgrades for it are close to 50 apice so they are things you can do when money permits. Yoyu dont have to save up 300 at once or anything like that.

I have never shot a 2003 Shocker, only held one. But from what I remember the internals are from the Dye matrix. Spart Parts ended up paying them a liscensing fee to use the design. Correct me if Im wrong.

Angel LED, Nice gun Basically the same as the LCD except for all the bells and whistles. You dont really use them they are just more things to break. I belive the LCDs ended up having better batteries as well as having a breach that was machined tighter to the bolt. This made it so when you broke paint you were less likely to have the bolt get stuck in the forward position. No big deal though just take off the barrel push the bold back down, open the breach and clean it up. I think LEDs are going around 300 at the moment.

In the end my opinion is to look at a used Impulse, BKO, Angel LED, or ULE mag for around 300. They might not have the performance of the Matrix. But for a third the price you get something that is still light fast and accurate. If the gun starts to hold you back you can always sell it for close to what you bought it for if you go used and find a good condition one. Then you can upgrade to a Matrix or Emag. Just have the money in the bank so when a deal comes up you can take advatage of it. Showing people cash makes the lower price seem not so bad.

My angel 2k2 c+c cost 500 with two bolts, a J+J ceramic and a 68/3000 bulldog. And odds are Ill get taken out by a ten year old girl with a rental SL-68. Buying a 1000 dollar gun dosent mean your gonna win. But it sure can help.

LICK LICK SUCK

[crewbe]

i would sugest going with an impulse i have a rat and that thing is a work horse. it is now my back up gun and it has gotten me and all me temates with timmys angels and when i had my pice of garbage 03 shocker out of a lot of jams when our primary guns whent down during practices and turnys

i also own a emag which is abit heavier and not as realible as my imp and my trix hands down is faster then the imp and just as reliable but has afew more orings and such to look out for

oh ya if ur going to run co2 on an imp ur going to need an anti-syphon tank not a regular co2 tank

[tyrion2323]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Ahh, more unsubstantiated claims from the Matrix dept.

Anyways, I wouldn't really consider an ULE-Custom in the same department as an Impulse or Shocker. If you want the ability to fire ropes, the ULE-Custom just won't cut it compared to an electro.

I stick with my original suggestions:
EVIL Omen
Upgrade BKO
Upgrade Impulse

[m20power]

I think that tyrion2323 has the right idea.
Check out this link and see what people have to say about the BKO

http://www.pbreview.com/products/reviews/2486/

Sure If you read some posts people who own angels and matrixes will tell you it sucks. But there are people out there who own ferarris who will tell you a porsche is crappy. Its all relative.

For the 30 more than the Raven that it costs you get a lighter faster gun with less moving parts and many more upgrades to make it even better. The electropneumatic design is simmilar to the matrix I belive using pneumatics as opposed to mechanical systems.

Also remember that what works for someone may not work for you. I just switched from a cocker to an angel. The cocker is a good gun. But it just dosent suit my playing style.

Oah and by the way JP....9368 on the angel so far. Its just too much fun.

[jpdgas]

I almost forgot, if you ar looking for a simple marker that is accurate, has the fewest moving parts of any marker out there, looks shveet, and is ultra reliable, check out the epic by ICE. Non electro so im sure no one on this thread will approve, but one of my teamies has one and i am thuroghly impressed by it, not to mention one of the best customer service companies out there. Ands its not to hard on the wallet.

Check it out if you havent made up your mind yet, im thinking of picking one up soon if my mag will let me...she gets kinda jealous

http://www.icepaintball.com/

[GoatBoy]

The mags are great guns. An engineers gun if I ever saw one. The new ULE guns with the X valve and ULT trigger can get pretty good speed and for 400 or so look at what you get. The valve alone is a 250.00 dollar part.



Oh Hell yes. I always think that when I do gun comparisons. After seeing the first mag, I couldn't understand why anyone would bother with the other Frankenstein jobs. Hell... still think that to this day with most guns.


Anyways, it doesn't sound like this guy is a front player, so he doesn't need the low profile... And he's not a paint slinger, so why bother with the expensive triggernomics game. That's what most of these guys with their gun biases are talking from -- OMG TEH TRIGGAR! I CAN'T MAKE A MISTAKE, SO MY GUN HAS TO BE THE BEST EVAR! A properly maintained gun isn't going to really perform that much differently from any other gun, other than what it does in your mind. What's that gun going to do to your mind? How's it going to feel in your hands? Well... not sure if we can tell you that for sure.

For instance... gun weight. I used to believe the big guys were the ones who made fun of the little guys for wanting lighter guns, but recently I've seen it the other way around. The big guys are like, "Forget that, I want a light gun", and it's the scrawny ones telling the big ones to "go lift weights" for the most part. I'll tell you this, I'm not quite sure of the exact specifics of your current gun, but if you pick pretty much any of the electros these guys are touting, you're going to have a heavier gun, no question about it.



There's something to be said about all these kids that seem to change their equipment on a continual basis. I'm thinking it's easier to blame the equipment than actually improve your game. Hell, now that I think about it, that must be why the great BPS race is so imporant. It's a nice, quantifiable way of explaining why someone beat you, or why they should show you respect in the staging area. Like the newbie in the staging area that goes, "I'm gonna get a fully automatic gun huh huh! <machine gun sounds>" or "OMG it's that guy with the autoblaster!" More "experienced" players just have more sophisticated terminology for it.


Anyways, whatever gun you pick, hopefully you will take the time to learn how it works, and how you should use it.


In the meantime, I feel compelled to ask... have you tried... cleaning your gun/accessories? You know, tearing it down and checking all the parts? If you haven't... boy you're going to hate some of these other guns.












*cough subliminal message buy a ULE mech mag cough cough*

[Enemy]

ok.. matrix never shot but i did get my hands on a dm4 and i walked it easy but i also walked an angel speed just as easy regardless the dm4 had some kick to it but when you are shooting that fast all you need is to walk the kick right back down and hold it there...personally emags a good choice..if you dont wanna go electro get the rt(deadlywind trigger coming soon!!!!) omens work good but the triggers have problems and when tuned down they bounce like crazy..same goes for e-piranhas(sp?)..also ask your self what do you like do you like a two tube stack a three tube triangle or a single tube.. does hieght of the marker matter if so then you will want to stay away from alot of the guns listed cuz they are tall especally when sitting next to a mag or 03 shocker..just realize that you dont need electrics to be good and from what youve described electrics arent going to be an issue so go with what you like and what fits your style...just remember when it comes to custom nothing matches the mags. good luck..

[1ofkind]

Just get a angel... you'll love it. After all I love my 2k cobra angel.

[ghideon]

For me, a stable shooting platform also means having something with some weight behind it to steady (like a nice e-marker made of steel, with EM00260 stamped on the valve :) ). Also not fanning the trigger and making the marker move all around helps, too. If you're hammering away at 16bps and missing half your shots on the guy's bunker, you might as well be shooting 8bps and landing em all. It's the same reason why I shoot better with a .44 Magnum than a 9mm pistol. Sometimes weight can be a good thing.




By stable shooting platform I mean stable shooting platform. You said yourself you don't shoot long strings of paint, but back players need that ability, and a marker that is kicking around like a mexican jumping bean isn't going to be very accurate. It doesn't take much barrel movement to be 6-12 inches off the mark, so stability during sustained rate of fire makes a difference.

And the Matrix will change his game. It is the easiest marker out there to walk. I don't really care to argue the point, though. If he bothers to shoot one he will know what I am talking about.

[Gabriel]

gabe, if i can call you gabe.....did you just say that a good/upgraded electro spyder and an emag are on par????? are you so full of you know what that your eyes are brown?.... if you consider a good upgraded e-spyder an intimidator... than yes,,, they're on par.... but man...spyders dont have antichop, they have about 4x the reciprocating mass... and they are milled to crap tolerances, meaning inconsistant performance.... get my drift????

-kyro

Sorry its taken me so long to reply....

Yes, a well upgraded spyder and an emag are on par. And to correct shivors spyders DO have an anti-chop eye available at the time of my first reply. go pm Nerobro and ask. If I'm not mistaken, it'S his board. not only does it have eyes, but break beam eyes none the less. Reciprocating mass? Umm, ok... a new hammer and/or striker would help with that. About the bodies, you can buy very well-manufactured aftermarket bodies. Akalmp VLM, Suprbugman (SBM) 'envy' style body, and Fireball Mountain Gothic Spyder Body just to name a few. And what more? glad you asked... Efficiency. A mag CANNOT compete in this area with a spyder, or most other guns for that matter. With a high-flowing VA, an AKA Valve, and any high-flowing bolt (CIP bolt, AKA Lightning bolt, etc.) a spyder can easily achieve ungodly amounts of shots off of one tank. And what can we look forward to in the near future? 90° frames maybe? Yes, SBM is coming out with an electro 90° frame with eye-capable board.

ALL of this makes a well-upgraded spyder as good as a well-upgraded Emag. A marker'S job is to get a paintball in the air going in the general direction of the opponents at a certain speed. After that, it's all preference. But dont knock a cheaper design just because its everybodys first gun.

Gabe

Oh, and... yes, I do have brown eyes, but that's pure coincidence.

EDIT: 200th POST! YAY! :D :cool:

[paintpiggie]

get the mag.
it'll be better in the long run.

[black tri star]

eairly in my post I said i could afford an Emag no problem, on the other hand I can't afford a matrix and from what I'v seen on Dy. web site I wouldn't want to buy a 1400 dollar modified angel. to answer some other questions yes I have taken apart guns and cleaned it, my gun is digustingly simple, I can field clean the whole gun, including the bolt assembly faster than most people can remove a quick screw barrel. Mechanical comprehension of how guns work is nothing for me, I've been checking out guns and their diagrams online, the cam opperation in the omen has efficency problems, the cockers in general have too many moving parts, I want a reliable gun, proven fact less moving parts less problems. The BKO's and Impusles while more stable are interesting in design, unfortunitly they way the regulator and air systems are set up I don't want to be spend a ton of money on n2 refills. The angels have a very appealing bolt assembly, but every time i consider one a red flag goes up in my mind. The shocker has turned out to become the poor mans X-mag. The Epic I would have to agree with jpdgas mechanically I'm almost in love with the gun, i just need to go out and shoot one to decide if i am to buy one. But when it comes down to it I am always mechanically comparing every design and system I've seen to the mags. I've been looking ele where on this site and have seen some interesting theories, you should base your playing style around your pyshical abilities, so with that said I am now changing my question to: which gun(Epic, Emag, RTpro mag, or an upgraded impulse) would be good for a medium/back player?

[No sKiLLz]

??? Last time I checked the price difference between the Matrix and E-mag were marginal. On Actionvillage there's only a $25 difference.

[black tri star]

i believe they are refering to the DM4