What's your take on this? (9/11 related)

[RRfireblade]

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

Thoughts?

[Load SM5]

From what I understood the plane smacked the ground in front of the pentagon which took a lot of the impact away from the actual building. The fragments of plane did'nt have the speed and mass to do the damage that a fully intact plane, at full speed, could've done. The jet fuel itself and the fires it caused did a lot of the damage afterwords, just as it did with the towers. No doubt, it could have been a lot worse.

I guess we should assume that Bush set off a bomb at the pentagon when he saw the planes crash into the towers so he go start an oil war with Saddam? Puleeeaaase.... :rolleyes:

[shartley]

Total BS. NUFF said.

Remember..... we never walked on the moon either. :rolleyes:

[PyRo]

It is strange that you don't see plane fragments. But still, its just a bunch of whackos.

[cphilip]

Pretty easy to debunk that because there are lots of pictures of peices of debris that show plane parts out there.

Here is one: http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/13.jpg

If you take some shots that its not clearly including any of them then its easy to try and build a case againts it. But they recoved lots of debris that was easy to identify as the plane itself.

Here is a site with lots of pictures that even show where the plane clipped light poles prior to impact and damaged cars as it went in: http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/pentagon_20020316.html

[fire1811]

Total BS. NUFF said.

Remember..... we never walked on the moon either. :rolleyes:

Agreed
one thing they didnt mention, or i didnt see wtf happend to the plane if it didnt crash into the pentagon

[Ironmag]

I remember seeing a video clip on the news on September 11 or 12 from someone taping somewhere in Washington DC on a highway and it caught the plane flying really low apparently on it's way to the Pentagon. If anyone else remember seeing that other than just me, i think you'll also believe this is BS.

[cphilip]

Yes I believe there is that video too....

But then again people make stuff up out of context and manage to eliminate the photos that clearly prove these ideas wrong.

There is another site out there that puts forth the idea it was a military plane that was MADE to look like a Boeing!

Here is a complete study done by Purdue of a remock of the actual plane crash: http://news.uns.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/020910.Sozen.Pentagon.html

[cphilip]

And here is an entire article specificaly debunking that site and its claim. Complete with many eyewitness accounts and even facts like the recovery of the black boxes and human remains and positive ID's of those to specific passengers.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77.htm

[GA Devil]

It does seem off tho that if a plane that size crashes into the side of a building at ground level and leaves such little debri. The pics of the cars dont prove anything to me honestly. That dmagae could very well been from a truck bomb. Shrapnel flying thru air. Im not supporting either of the ideas of what happened but I just feel that if there was a plane that size crash like that there would be more of it around. Look at other plane crashs in the past. Always a whole lot more plane left. I even remember hearing about another plane flying at water level down the river.....and it never happened. I am personally leanign more towards the bomb side of the argument and that the government dont want to admit to somethign like that getting to where it was versus a plane that size and only leaving a min. amount of eveidence left.

[punkncat]

If you take an aluminum aircraft travelling at 600 mph and slam it into a building or the ground , the pieces of it aren't just going to be parked on the lawn.
Remember the Airtran crash into the Okefenokee swamp.There was nothing but a hole left.

Lets explore some more.
Jet A is very much like diesel fuel.It burns with a heavy black sooty smoke.Evidence of this is all over the building.
Also the sand truck and gravel in question.If you have ever poured diesel onto grass , you realize quickly that nothing will ever grow there again.It was nec. to put down new soil in order for the lawn ot be restored from the fuel soaked ground where the plane hit.

This is some more conspiracy theory BS.Tell the democrats/french to head back to the drawing board and try harder.

[cphilip]

Well apparently you didn't look at all the evidence I just linked...

Body remains positively identified as passengers ON that plane. Not to mention parts with serial numbers and parts numbers that can be traced to the exact plane that is missing. So where did it go then? How did those passengers remains get into the building?

Almost all if the Peices of the plane. All of the plane would have been propelled into the building from the velocity it was traveling. The pilot at the time was accelerating it into the building. The only way ANY pieces didn't follow in was it slightly banked and knocked off a few before it hit. Most of them would have continued to travel into the building and resulting fire.

How did the light poles get clipped that far away and why would the occupants of the cars say a low flying plane did it? And what happened to that low flying plane if it did not go on into the building in the same tradgectory that it clipped those light poles?

All of the MANY eyewitnesses that SAW it go into the building. Many many people traveling around DC at the time witnessed it actually happen.

Sorry but there is overwhelming evidence it was that plane that hit that building.

[shartley]

One thing some folks are not taking into account is that a plane crash VS a suicide plane crash are totally different things. The force of impact and subsequent debris from a standard crash that is trying to be avoided is MUCH different than that left from a full force full impact crash. And contrary to popular belief, planes (passenger liners) are NOT made of high impact materials.

Now add all that up with the true speed of impact, the amount of fuel involved, angle of impact and actual place of impact.

I see no plausible reason for the government to lie about this. I suppose they lied about the other plane in PA too? Sorry, I just don’t buy it. But hey, it sounds GREAT if you don’t like the current administration! WooHoo!

(sorry..... others posted while I was typing this. ;) )

[fire1811]

not to mention that there is not way that you could keep something that big and public with that many people(rescue workers, construction, personel, others) quiet.

and as shartley stated your comparing a plane that did want to be crashed with others that didnt want to be crashed

[cphilip]

not to mention that there is not way that you could keep something that big and public with that many people(rescue workers, construction, personel, others) quiet.

There were indeed too many witnesses. All of which describe the plane low flying and accelerating as to not be avoiding but to be attempting a crash. Many of them actually SAW it go into the building. You cannot get that many people on the streets to agree and coordinate an conspiricy. If you believe this then OJ was not guilty. I guess you can make 12 people believe anything if you get them to completely avoid the obvious facts.

Remember there are still black boxes showing flight path and impact site as well.

[Buff]

uhm, this is liking trying to say WWII didn't happen :rolleyes:
I remember watching tv after it happened, the tale was somewhat visible. They cleard most of the junk away when they were trying to stop the fire. The plane did hit the ground before the building, and I think physics will prove a large number of fragments would have gone into the building and been destroyed in the fire.

[GA Devil]

lol i never said i believed or didnt believe either thing. Just seems there is reasons to believe both. Everyone knows the government dont admit to things it does that makes it look bad. History tells us that. SHartleys book of useless knowledge I guess over rules all and I shoul dnot have questioned such things....sorry lol

[shartley]

lol i never said i believed or didnt believe either thing. Just seems there is reasons to believe both. Everyone knows the government dont admit to things it does that makes it look bad. History tells us that. SHartleys book of useless knowledge I guess over rules all and I shoul dnot have questioned such things....sorry lol
Was I the ONLY person who commented? Heck in fact, CPhilip posted MORE than I did.

Please keep personal comments to yourself. I did not make any comments about you, so don’t do so in reverse. Thank you.

[MadChild]

it was a group of samurai....

[FactsOfLife]

Only thing worse than a conspiracy theorist...


A french conspiracy theorist...

effing frogs.

[SlartyBartFast]

Debunked in another source:
http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

[Target Practice]

Wow, they have me convinced. Hey, I dare you to find the planes that hit the World Trade Center! Man, I am sure glad we have researchers dedicated to exposing the Bush Regime's Lies!







:rolleyes: x Infinity

[taylor492]

Wow. What will they think of next? Its been mentioned a few times already but theres not going to be a pile of airplane parts laying on the ground. Look at pictures of the crash in Pennsylavania. It was just a big trench. Anyways wasnt there also video of the plane from the security camera at the gate or something. I've seen that video, cant remember exactly where the camera was at.




it was a group of samurai....

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And is anyone as tired of this guy as me? :mad:

[Load SM5]

http://vancouver.indymedia.org/uploads/explosion-1.jpg

http://vancouver.indymedia.org/uploads/explosion-2.jpg

http://vancouver.indymedia.org/uploads/explosion-3.jpg

http://vancouver.indymedia.org/uploads/explosion-4.jpg

[taylor492]

Ya there you go

Thanks Load :D

[RenagadeOfFunk]

...i dont know what to believe... :(

...but i dont see a plane in those pics from Load

[RoadDawg]

I seen the video. If I remembered right though it was a totally different aircraft then the one they show on the website link posted in the first post. I thought it had one of those "T" tail sections with the engines by the back? Not positive though. Anyways. I don't care for people that show only half an arguement and hide the other half that disproves their theory.

[logamus]

...but i dont see a plane in those pics from Load
if you look at the first pic near the top right corner you can just see the top of the tail above the parking ticket machine. also notice the white smoke/dust kicked up behind the plane as it skids across the grass.

in a somewhat unrelated site this astrophysicist discusses the energy involved with the wtc attacks. the bottom line is that the combined energy from the two planes hitting the towers equals almost 2 kilotons of energy. the hiroshima bomb was 13 kilotons.

http://paulboutin.weblogger.com/2001/09/17

[SanDiegoMag]

When the attacks happned, why do you yhink theydidnt make a big deal over the pentagon. Added effect. THEY HAD TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE THE GOVernment was under direct attack so they could go fight
NUFF SAID!

[FactsOfLife]

When the attacks happned, why do you yhink theydidnt make a big deal over the pentagon. Added effect. THEY HAD TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE THE GOVernment was under direct attack so they could go fight
NUFF SAID!


I hope you're kidding,,,

[Target Practice]

When the attacks happned, why do you yhink theydidnt make a big deal over the pentagon. Added effect. THEY HAD TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE THE GOVernment was under direct attack so they could go fight
NUFF SAID!

I have no idea what this means.

[SanDiegoMag]

Who knows man, it could be a truth. but i do have to say, its too risky for us to do something like that. I doubt it, although those pics are certainly make the story debatable. What it means Target, is that we needed oil, so we tried to go get it. The only reason we are in iraq is for oil. We went to Afganistan to find retribution. we then just slid into Iraq by implicating them and in turn are getting oil and trying to get a country that will "Owe" us something. Namely oil.
Who knows? i could be wrong... BUT i may also be correct.

[Albinonewt]

Pretty easy to debunk that because there are lots of pictures of peices of debris that show plane parts out there.

If youo want to debunk it all ya' gotta do is ask the following question:

"Newt, when your step mom who works in the Pentagon was wounded by shrapnel and debris on 9/11 did she see a plane or a truck smack into her work building as she was walking down a mostly unused hallway from a meeting?"

The correct answer is, a plane.

[SanDiegoMag]

I dont really care if its fake or not. I still think we went too far in the war with iraq. The weapons stashes WERE found... oh wait, that was in the enquirer. Seriously we had the right to search, ut we went too far.

[Lohman446]

I dont really care if its fake or not. I still think we went too far in the war with iraq. The weapons stashes WERE found... oh wait, that was in the enquirer. Seriously we had the right to search, ut we went too far.

Iraq was in clear and constant violation of the terms of peace after the Gulf War... thats all we needed.

[oldsoldier]

OH MY GOD!!! We are NOT in Iraq for oil!!! You people, who THINK we are...what are you paying for gas now? 25 cents? 50? NO!!! It is HIGHER now than it was before!!! Stop reading into the liberal BS!! THESE PEOPLE WANT TO KILL AMERICANS!!! I see them every day. They are a vile, vicious people, who manipulate us. You know, in training camps, they train people to SPECIFICALLY be caught by us, and to send back info on prisons and prisoners? That is some peoples ONLY job. please, do NOT tell me this is about oil. Those of us who have fought, will fight, or know people who have fought in these wars know otherwise. Please stop buying into half truths.

[mag-hatter]

wait why does it say september 12? wtf?

[1stdeadeye]

It does seem off tho that if a plane that size crashes into the side of a building at ground level and leaves such little debri. The pics of the cars dont prove anything to me honestly. That dmagae could very well been from a truck bomb. Shrapnel flying thru air. Im not supporting either of the ideas of what happened but I just feel that if there was a plane that size crash like that there would be more of it around. Look at other plane crashs in the past. Always a whole lot more plane left. I even remember hearing about another plane flying at water level down the river.....and it never happened. I am personally leanign more towards the bomb side of the argument and that the government dont want to admit to somethign like that getting to where it was versus a plane that size and only leaving a min. amount of eveidence left.


Please tell me you are kidding. :confused:

GA Devil just fell down the 1DE intelligence meter! :p

[the larch]

Uhm...just a small point. When you jump on the Evil Bush and his cohortes attack Irag to get oil bandwagon without substantiating the words coming out of your mouth you just look like a never had a job, leaching off his parents, college student who has nothing better to do than try to impress hot hippie chicks with his unresearched antiwar sentiments.
So, just go back to your coffee shop and buy one of those girley flavored coffees (cause you couldn't drink it any other way) and reflect on how nice it's going to be to borrow your parents gas hog of an SUV so you can "rough it" on a camping trip with your buddies and your beer.
I on the other hand will continue working for a living and supporting my country in any way that I can.

[darwin]

http://vancouver.indymedia.org/uploads/explosion-1.jpg

http://vancouver.indymedia.org/uploads/explosion-2.jpg

http://vancouver.indymedia.org/uploads/explosion-3.jpg

http://vancouver.indymedia.org/uploads/explosion-4.jpg

i take it those dates are the day they were posted or something>?

[SanDiegoMag]

Hey stop bashing me, I think oil prices should have gone down since we have more access. I'm not against the war totally, im just mad at bush because i dont like him. I haven't liked any presidents in my lifetime. ALL of em were bad. Clinton actualy acpomlished stuff. And I do live with my parrents, BUT ONLY BECAUSE IM 16 YOU MORON! AND I DO PAY FOR GAS SO DONT BASH ME OR ANYONE ELSE!

[SanDiegoMag]

OH MY GOD!!! We are NOT in Iraq for oil!!! You people, who THINK we are...what are you paying for gas now? 25 cents? 50? NO!!! It is HIGHER now than it was before!!! Stop reading into the liberal BS!! THESE PEOPLE WANT TO KILL AMERICANS!!! I see them every day. They are a vile, vicious people, who manipulate us. You know, in training camps, they train people to SPECIFICALLY be caught by us, and to send back info on prisons and prisoners? That is some peoples ONLY job. please, do NOT tell me this is about oil. Those of us who have fought, will fight, or know people who have fought in these wars know otherwise. Please stop buying into half truths.
Um ok, those are terrorists, not Iraqis. The Iraqis dont support terrorism, they just look the other way. And yes they did violate the treaty. BUT no weapons were found. We didnt have to demolish them just to rebuild them.

[Army]

SanDiegoMag, come on over to my position on the East gate here on LSA Anaconda, and tell me that the people shooting at me today are not Iraqi. Try to convince the Marines in Fallujah, that the militia they are fighting are not Iraqi.

Don't spew your ignorant drivel here. Learn the FACTS and the TRUTH before you open your mouth. What we are doing here is GOOD for this country, and the world at large.

This battle has NOTHING to do with oil, we buy more from Venezuela anyway. Besides, thanks to liberal bunny-kissers, we don't have 1/3 of our own US production anymore. It's not about SUV's anyway, think about whatever in your life that is synthetic (don't count the Tuesday meat at the school cafeteria). All that is from oil, which is damn near everything isn't it? Including the computer you are using right now to defend your blissfully tiny view of reality.

SGT Medzyk...40th Infantry.."Dragonslayers"

[Buff]

Hey stop bashing me, I think oil prices should have gone down since we have more access.

uh huh......right ;)

just for sum info, paintballs are made by a petroleu by-product, guess what that means? As gas prices rise........ :eek:

[MadChild]

In the sequence shot of the pentagon blowing up, the dates on the pics say september 12th, 2001. so it is fake since the attacks took place on september 11th.

[1stdeadeye]

Hey stop bashing me, I think oil prices should have gone down since we have more access. I'm not against the war totally, im just mad at bush because i dont like him. I haven't liked any presidents in my lifetime. ALL of em were bad. Clinton actualy acpomlished stuff. And I do live with my parrents, BUT ONLY BECAUSE IM 16 YOU MORON! AND I DO PAY FOR GAS SO DONT BASH ME OR ANYONE ELSE!

Opec is slowing production. That is one of the main reason for higher prices. We are not "stealing" Iraq's oil. If we were prices would be a heck of a lot lower!!!!

Clinton accomplished nothing! He inherited a good economy and slowly let it get smashed. He never responded to previous terror attacks on our country (First WTC attack, African Embassies), he allowed America to look weak by running after our blood was spilled (Somolia). Doing this he encouraged grander and grander plots against us culminating in 9/11!!

The only thing Clinton was great at was Politics! He was a masterful politician! Clinton only had full control for his first 2 years in office. His tax hike swept the Republicans into control of the House and Senate! Republicans controlled the legislature for the rest of his term!

As for your last statement, you age shows through by your lack of maturity! :rolleyes:

[PissedGodzilla]

If you look at the last picture that Load put up on this thread, you can see the traffic cones actually being pushed by the blast wave.... they look like they are at an angle when compared to the other pics.... crazy....


BTW why don't we go and tell all the families that there loved ones ON THAT PLANE didn't actually crash into the pentagon, but they were abducted by aliens.... this IS A BIG GIANT ALIEN CONSPIRACY I TELLS YA!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY ARE CAUSING WARS TO WEAKEN US FOR THEIR IMMINENT INVASION!!!!!!!!!




WHY WON'T WNYONE LISTEN TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
;) ;) ;) :rolleyes:

[PissedGodzilla]

Clinton accomplished nothing! He inherited a good economy and slowly let it get smashed.

The only thing Clinton was great at was Politics! He was a masterful politician! Clinton only had full control for his first 2 years in office. His tax hike swept the Republicans into control of the House and Senate! Republicans controlled the legislature for the rest of his term!



I don't want to jack the thread, but Clinton walked into a HORRIBLE economy. Don't you remember the recession 1DE?? That's what he inherited.... and when he left? OH!! Biggest budget turnaround in history.... he actually BALANCED the budget..... Let's see little George try and to that...


And to be honest, any president has to be a good politician, THAT'S HOW THEY GOT TO BE PRESIDENT.... lol just throwin a little logic at ya! :p :p

[1stdeadeye]

BTW why don't we go and tell all the families that there loved ones ON THAT PLANE didn't actually crash into the pentagon, but they were abducted by aliens.... this IS A BIG GIANT ALIEN CONSPIRACY I TELLS YA!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY ARE CAUSING WARS TO WEAKEN US FOR THEIR IMMINENT INVASION!!!!!!!!!

WHY WON'T WNYONE LISTEN TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
;) ;) ;) :rolleyes:

Darn Mexican Aliens!!!! They won't be happy until the take over the US! :eek:

:p ;)

[1stdeadeye]

I don't want to jack the thread, but Clinton walked into a HORRIBLE economy. Don't you remember the recession 1DE?? That's what he inherited.... and when he left? OH!! Biggest budget turnaround in history.... he actually BALANCED the budget..... Let's see little George try and to that...

BS Flag just went up. The economy is cyclical. On an Economic level, the recession was already over and we were seeing growth. Clinton walked into the perfect recovery. He did not create it. Also, he didn't balance the budget! The enormous revenues coming in created the situation where he and the Republican Congress could balance it. Once the bubble burst (on his watch) a balanced budget was no longer feasible as the tax revenues weren't there to support the growth in the the budget!

Also Clinton didn't have to deal with a war like both Bushs did. :rolleyes: That is usually a budget buster! Ask FDR! :p

[cphilip]

Some of you don't go back far enough. Carter was in when he economy went south.... Then Regan started the current policy trend. By the time Bush Sr. came in it was recovering well and upswinging. Then came Clinton. And Clinton ran on a platform of NOT disturbing the economic policies of Regan and Bush as they were clearly working. And he indeed followed through on that for the most part. Unfortulantely a good bit of that upswing was built on companies with no assests. And thier fall contributed to the unraveling of that growth. It was in full crash before Clinton left office and in fact contributed to the defeat of Dem party in this last election. People forget that the downturn started a full 18 months before he left office I guess. But it was a point in the campaign that it was on a downturn. Then 9/11 really hurt any chance of it leveling out and upswinging. Which it seems to be doing now. People give too much credit to the sitting president for what happens in the economy. They can help or hurt it to some degree but for the most part its a beast of its own tied to world economy. It cycles. You can affect parts of that but not the whole.

And about Iraq.. things you don't read in the news for some reason very often but need to be reminded of:


-Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.

-Over 400,000 kids have up to date immunizations.

-Over 1500 schools have been renovated and ridded of the weapons that were stored there so education can occur.

-The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off loaded from ships faster.

-School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.

-The country had it's first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.

-The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war

-100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed compared to 35% before the war.

-Elections are taking place in every major city and city councils are in place.

-Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.

-Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.

-Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.

-Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.

-Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.

-Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.

-An interim constitution has been signed.

-Girls are allowed to attend school for the first time ever in Iraq.

-Text books that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.

Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us there.

[MayAMonkeyBeYourPinata]

Opec is slowing production. That is one of the main reason for higher prices. We are not "stealing" Iraq's oil. If we were prices would be a heck of a lot lower!!!!

Clinton accomplished nothing! He inherited a good economy and slowly let it get smashed. He never responded to previous terror attacks on our country (First WTC attack, African Embassies), he allowed America to look weak by running after our blood was spilled (Somolia). Doing this he encouraged grander and grander plots against us culminating in 9/11!!

The only thing Clinton was great at was Politics! He was a masterful politician! Clinton only had full control for his first 2 years in office. His tax hike swept the Republicans into control of the House and Senate! Republicans controlled the legislature for the rest of his term!

As for your last statement, you age shows through by your lack of maturity! :rolleyes:

In regards to Osama Bin Laden. Clinton wanted him dead, ever since the embassy bombings. But, Clinton couldn't just authorize a whole Bond style license to kill, he had to make it a capture mission, which would most likely end up in Bin Laden dead, because he would fight back. This is because of a bunch of legal reasons.

And Clinton also told George Bush that Bin Laden would be his #1 national security problem.

And in Somalia we shouldn't have been doing what we did in the first place, we went above and beyond the objective and that almost always leads to trouble.

[Jack_Dubious]

if we arent there for oil, then WTF are we doing there? Im mean cmon if we are gonna invade another country lets at least get some spoils.

my GMC doesnt run on Gods own methane......I NEED MY SUV JUICE, BABY!! :p


JDub

[RoadDawg]

Opec is slowing production. That is one of the main reason for higher prices.

Funny, in one of the previous gas oil discussions I said that and FactsOfLife told me I didn't know what I was talking about. :) Anyways. We are doing good in Iraq. I'm not particularly fond of war because war really gets anybody anywhere. Also anyone else find it funny that we were bombing places, where our bombs were probably worth more $$$ wise then the actual target? (takin from Comedy Central's Barmitzfa bash) We are doing good overthere but there are only small groups that don't want us there. Unfortunatly they know how to put up a fight and get "others" involved. Back to the topic. Those pics that Load posted do have the wrong date. Wonder why that is?

[FactsOfLife]

Funny, in one of the previous gas oil discussions I said that and FactsOfLife told me I didn't know what I was talking about. :)


And I'll say it again. You're clueless, and selfish.

[RoadDawg]

FOL- I'd hit the rolleyes smiley for that but the smiley looks dumb.

[vf-xx]

This battle has NOTHING to do with oil, we buy more from Venezuela anyway.

While I don't know the exact numbers this doesn't surprise me. I co-op'ed with a refinery in Houston who got their oil from Venezuela. The company, Lyondell-Citgo Refining (LCR), is the largest refinery on the Houston shipchannel and IIRC one of the largest importer's of Venezuelan crude. I'm honestly suprized that we aren't doing more to stabilize the Venezuelan government (I'm remembering the multiple revolutions a few years back).

Between that fact and current gas prices I'm more inclined to believe that this isn't ENTIRELY about oil. Honestly considering the region I cannot believe that improved oil produciton isn't someone's goal, however I doubt that it's the sole overriding reason we're there.

[FactsOfLife]

FOL- I'd hit the rolleyes smiley for that but the smiley looks dumb.


Go ahead, it can't possibly make you look any sillier than you already are.

[1stdeadeye]

In regards to Osama Bin Laden. Clinton wanted him dead, ever since the embassy bombings. But, Clinton couldn't just authorize a whole Bond style license to kill, he had to make it a capture mission, which would most likely end up in Bin Laden dead, because he would fight back. This is because of a bunch of legal reasons.

And Clinton also told George Bush that Bin Laden would be his #1 national security problem.

And in Somalia we shouldn't have been doing what we did in the first place, we went above and beyond the objective and that almost always leads to trouble.

First off:
Fact: Clinton was offered Bin Laden and most of his senior leadership on a silver platter! Clinton let him go because he didn't want to expend political capital over him. 9/11 would not have happened had the entire Al Queda leadership been taken when offered and not allowed to move into Afghanistan.

Second:
Who put us in Somolia? Also, who left our troops their without any armor? Who refused repeated requests for armor? Oh yeah Clinton. :mad: Black hawk down would have just been a helo crash if we could have riden to the rescue in Bradleys and Abrams! Instead our soldiers had to wait for Indonesian Armor to rescue them! :mad:

[FactsOfLife]

In regards to Osama Bin Laden. Clinton wanted him dead, ever since the embassy bombings. But, Clinton couldn't just authorize a whole Bond style license to kill, he had to make it a capture mission, which would most likely end up in Bin Laden dead, because he would fight back. This is because of a bunch of legal reasons.





Let's see Madelein Not-at-all-bright turned down OBL not once, but twice.

He was handed to the Clinton administration on a platter. This above ANYTHING else Clinton did or didn't do should absolutely and without question be Clinton's FAILED legacy as president.

Clinton couldn't authorize a "kill OBL style mission"? Explain the cruise missles that were fired at him then.

[aaron_mag]

First off lets get something straight. Economies are controlled by far more than the president. Could it be that all the technological advances in the 90s had something to do with our massive economic growth?

So please don't credit Clinton, Reagan, or Bush for all of this stuff.

Second I don't think we went in the for oil. I think we went in there for incredibly stupid reasons (and we are going to be stuck there for awhile mind you). We should have concentrated on Afghanistan and finished the job there of rooting out Bin Laden (my personal opinion). Many of us on this board were saying, "Wait. This doesn't make sense. Why are we going over there? Shouldn't we focus on that bastard Bin Laden before we commit to something like Iraq?"

Of course it was going to be 'so easy'. We could easily do both. We wouldn't even have to break promises to our troops on how long the deployments would be. Our military wouldn't be strained a bit.

It also made perfect sense why Iraq and N. Korea were not immediate threats to the U.S. The leaders there had alot to lose. They didn't want to lose control of their country. They had it good. If any WMD was sold to terrorists and traced back to them they would be done. Bye bye.

So the real threat was someone who was actually insane and had nothing to lose. Someone like Bin Laden. So many people (who all of you insist upon labelling liberals) kept saying, "Hey. Lets focus on that guy. He is both the guy responsible for the 9/11 attacks and the biggest immediate threat."

But we had to get diverted by Iraq. Good move.....

[taylor492]

If any WMD was sold to terrorists and traced back to them they would be done. Bye bye.



That was the problem. We couldnt get any straight answers out of Iraq. The U.N weapons inspectors were gettin led on a wild goose chase.

[FactsOfLife]

First off lets get something straight. Economies are controlled by far more than the president. Could it be that all the technological advances in the 90s had something to do with our massive economic growth?

So please don't credit Clinton, Reagan, or Bush for all of this stuff.

Second I don't think we went in the for oil. I think we went in there for incredibly stupid reasons (and we are going to be stuck there for awhile mind you). We should have concentrated on Afghanistan and finished the job there of rooting out Bin Laden (my personal opinion). Many of us on this board were saying, "Wait. This doesn't make sense. Why are we going over there? Shouldn't we focus on that bastard Bin Laden before we commit to something like Iraq?"

Of course it was going to be 'so easy'. We could easily do both. We wouldn't even have to break promises to our troops on how long the deployments would be. Our military wouldn't be strained a bit.

It also made perfect sense why Iraq and N. Korea were not immediate threats to the U.S. The leaders there had alot to lose. They didn't want to lose control of their country. They had it good. If any WMD was sold to terrorists and traced back to them they would be done. Bye bye.

So the real threat was someone who was actually insane and had nothing to lose. Someone like Bin Laden. So many people (who all of you insist upon labelling liberals) kept saying, "Hey. Lets focus on that guy. He is both the guy responsible for the 9/11 attacks and the biggest immediate threat."

But we had to get diverted by Iraq. Good move.....


You suffering from heat stroke or something Aaron?

Ronaldus Magnus had EVERYTHING to do with the boom economy in the eighties. By cutting the top marginal tax rates from the 70% range nearly in half, the people that create jobs, i.e. entrepreneurs, put their monies in businesses instead of looking for loopholes in the tax codes.

I am sick to friggin death of revisionist histories of the eighties.

And as far as your analysis of the Iraq war, you couldn't be further from reality if you tried.

Hey guess what? Know where all the terrorists are right now? Bottled up in the mid east instead of on our soil. And in case you missed the news lately, we're STILL IN AFGHANISTAN.

I swear, the closer we get to November, the loonier you libs get.

At this rate, you're all going to have a massive meltdown about August 13th or so....

[aaron_mag]

Yes, I forgot. Reagan and Bush put us on the path to steller growth that Clinton just happened to ruin just in time for Bush Jr. to take over the reins and put us on the right track again.

And you think that 'we' (and I use the term loosely, because I don't know who 'we' are) are the ones that are delusional.

Yeah. We still are in Afghanistan. Wouldn't it be nice if we could have focused on Afghanistan a little more?

Don't go counting election results before they are hatch. I have a feeling I'm going to be listening to you moan. I wonder what your fevered, heat-stroked, brain will come up with as a conspiracy theory as to why your boy lost. :) (note smiley face. Just joking around with the 'fevered, heat-stroked, bit. I know in that constricted conservative heart of yours there is still some room for laughter.... :D )

-Later

[1stdeadeye]

Yes, I forgot. Reagan and Bush put us on the path to steller growth that Clinton just happened to ruin just in time for Bush Jr. to take over the reins and put us on the right track again.

And you think that 'we' (and I use the term loosely, because I don't know who 'we' are) are the ones that are delusional.

Yeah. We still are in Afghanistan. Wouldn't it be nice if we could have focused on Afghanistan a little more?

Don't go counting election results before they are hatch. I have a feeling I'm going to be listening to you moan. I wonder what your fevered, heat-stroked, brain will come up with as a conspiracy theory as to why your boy lost. :) (note smiley face. Just joking around with the 'fevered, heat-stroked, bit. I know in that constricted conservative heart of yours there is still some room for laughter.... :D )

-Later

Clinton did not spoil the party. His bureaucrats weren't minding the store. It is a shame. Enro, Adelphia, K-Mart and MCI were all blamed on Bush, but the problems that caused them were created under Clinton and caught under Bush!

Don't forget you owe me a BC when Kerry loses! :cool:

As for Bin Laden, he is bottled up and will be caught sooner or later. I think Iraq was necessary to show the world we were dead serious about our war on terror! Beating up Afghanistan is like the quaterback of the football team roughing up a special ed kid. Sure you kick his arse but you look foolish doing it! Beating up Iraq served notice to despots around the world. Look at how quickly Libiya fell into line! So many liberals refuse to acknowledge that!

[FactsOfLife]

Yes, I forgot. Reagan and Bush put us on the path to steller growth that Clinton just happened to ruin just in time for Bush Jr. to take over the reins and put us on the right track again.

And you think that 'we' (and I use the term loosely, because I don't know who 'we' are) are the ones that are delusional.

Yeah. We still are in Afghanistan. Wouldn't it be nice if we could have focused on Afghanistan a little more?

Don't go counting election results before they are hatch. I have a feeling I'm going to be listening to you moan. I wonder what your fevered, heat-stroked, brain will come up with as a conspiracy theory as to why your boy lost. :) (note smiley face. Just joking around with the 'fevered, heat-stroked, bit. I know in that constricted conservative heart of yours there is still some room for laughter.... :D )

-Later


aaron, You fianlly got something right! :D Clinton DID fall into the most amazing growth period of our nations economy and promptly squandered it. Of course he did everything he could to cut our taxes for the first three days in office, but then he saw fit to instead give us the single largest tax increse in HISTORY.

as far as the election goes, you willing to put your money where your DONKEY is?

I've got a bottle of Glen Livet Single malt that says John Effing Kerry, the french looking candidate goes down harder than Monica did. :p

[Buff]

In regards to Osama Bin Laden. Clinton wanted him dead, ever since the embassy bombings. But, Clinton couldn't just authorize a whole Bond style license to kill, he had to make it a capture mission, which would most likely end up in Bin Laden dead, because he would fight back. This is because of a bunch of legal reasons.

omfg
And I thought the french couldn't be surpased.....

[cphilip]

Somehow we all forgot the topic on this one. Me included!

Closed. Became Political and not allowed.