Cocker range vs. Mag

[haiz23]

I have a question about cockers. I have heard a few people say that cocker shoot farther than mags and most other guns. Is this true. If they are shooting at the same fps with the same barrel wouldnt they shoot about the same distance. I am just wondering about this and would appreciate any info that could prove this either correct or incorrect.

[Chris]

No gun can shoot farther than any other gun, given that they are shooting at the same velocity, without adding backspin on the ball. Cockers do not shoot further or flatter than any other gun. My theory on this has to do with the way I hold the cocker and the mag. I inherently hold the mag down at the barrel more than I do with the cocker, basically, any difference you notice has to do with these things:

1) Consistancy
2) Level and height of the barrel when the gun is shot

-Chris

[2UnREal]

Au Contrare. I noticed that my cocker shooting at the same fps will shoot further than my mag. I try to lob my mag and it still won't go as far as the cocker. Now, guns shooting the same fps should not differ in range but somehow they do. Think about the flatline. How does that get the ball to go further?

[Arturus]

Originally posted by 2UnREal
Au Contrare. I noticed that my cocker shooting at the same fps will shoot further than my mag. I try to lob my mag and it still won't go as far as the cocker. Now, guns shooting the same fps should not differ in range but somehow they do. Think about the flatline. How does that get the ball to go further?

Read Chris's post agian.

"No gun can shoot farther than any other gun, given that they are shooting at the same velocity, without adding backspin on the ball. Cockers do not shoot further or flatter than any other gun."

The flatline shoots further by adding a 'backspin' on the ball.

[Chris]

If you honestly believe that a cocker/shocker/angel/stingray shoots farther than a mag, try the following test.

Borrow said gun, and a very consistant air source.
Place in a vise on a table, measure the height of the barrel to the ground. Make sure that the barrel is dead level. Set the velocity to 280fps, or whatever you want to shoot at. Use simmilar barrels, I would recomend AA's or CP's as they make them for every single gun imaginable. Use the same paint, and make sure that all the balls are from the same batch. Make sure that all of the variables are the same between the guns, so that the only difference is the gun itself. You will find, without a doubt (excluding the z-body mag, and the flatline barrel) that each and every ball shot from each and every gun will fall within a few feet of each other. No gun will outshoot any other gun. There is no way around physics If you doubt me, go and try this experiment, then come back and tell me what you found.

-Chris

[haiz23]

Thats exactly what i was telling my brother, that there is no way around physics. I would love to do the experiment you suggested but frankly i dont have the money to invest into something like that. If anybody has already done this experiment i would like to hear about the results.

[FeelTheRT]

i'm not saying that Cocker shoot farther or anything like that but, when i break a ball in my Cocker, the balls all curve like blind mices. When i had my RT and broke a ball, it wasn't as accurate but didn't curve off like a mofo. Maybe how the paintball is propelled?

[2UnREal]

You are right about there is no way around physics, but it just seems like my cocker shoots further. But you also have to add in the one ball is being hit while the other is shot while it is still. Anyways, you are probably right.

[X-Plosive]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought both cocker and mag bolt propell the ball somewhat. I have a funny story about this kid at my field but I'm not going to get into it. He's VERY new to paintball and spent about $1200 on his setup.

[MrStrike]

There are no way getting around Physics (sp?). but A cocker will shoot its target more consistancy. That is because the cocker is a closed bolt design marker. Just like a pump gun. actually a cocker IS a pump gun (just on serious steriods).
Personaly Ill take a Lighter, easier to fix, more air efficent mag any day over a cocker.

just my $0.02

[X-Plosive]

wow, okay..............Once more correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the whole thing about the pump gun's accuracy being supperior to every other gun just a myth? Supposedly because of the close bolt design and the fewer moving parts. What you don't realize with a pumpgun is that you have less balls and a much lower ROF. So you have to make your shots count as opposed to spray and pray. As far as the cocker could it be that you think they are more accurate than a mag because they weigh more when they are unmilled. This isn't a flame but whenever we touch this subject I notice many myths are added and from them we have flames. Now a cocker that has been setup properly running a gladiator or stab will most likely have better consistancy than a stock mag. But thats like comparing apples with oranges. Now replace the mag with an RT-Pro and it becomes realistic again. This post has nothing to do with the thread and is here only to clear up the statement made by MrStrike.

As far as the original question, mags will be just as accurate as cockers or any other gun for that matter when all variables are they same including paint to barrel match. With the exception of the gun.

[mac2k4]

but there is another factor, ball distortion, lower pressure, meaning less acctuall presure smacking the ballform a still position having less ball distortion, w/ ball distortion the ball is distorted so lil' air comes out and the ball won't shoot as accurate, just like shooting dimpled balls, and egg shaped balls....

[X-Plosive]

hmmm doesn't TK have some high speed footage of a paintball being fired from the breach and he said there was 0 ball distortion. I doubt a cocker causes ball distortion either.

[mac2k4]

well i know a cocker wouldn't have much ball distortion if any, if ya can but your finger in the breech and it stops on your finger, but w/ my mag it broke a pencil in half(that'd really hurt your finger!)

[a_malfunction]

I dont think this debate will ever die.....

[FeelTheRT]

ok... this is starting to turn into a Mag VS Cocker accuracy debate rather than range. Range will be the same. I've herd many people talk about Cockers being more accurate at longer ranges, but that is probably due to the very little recoil Cockers have oppose to the kick the Mag has.

But i do beleive the paintballs fly differently w/ the two guns. On my Cocker, when i short a ball, and get other crap in the gun, the balls fly off to the side like if it's retarded. When i had my RT and broke a ball (which i rearly did), it would just shoot right through it. It wouldn't be as accurate but didn't curve off like a mofo.

[Cha0tic]

ok, i just want to suggest that you people read up on things before you post.

lower pressure does not increase accuracy. sure it hits the ball with less force (with a higher volume), but that has nothing to do with it. Tom Kaye did some tests of balls shooting. he filmed it with a very high speed camera and saw what kind of distortion happened. i think he used a clear barrel so he could see.

pump guns- with pumps, you are more accurate because you take time to aim, and then shoot. with semi-autos, you tend to fire rapidly which will mess up your aim because of recoil and your fingers going back and forth.

shooting through ball breaks- different barrels shoot through ball breaks better than others....

range- just read your physics book. and for you people that are too young for physics and can't understand, just take my word for it. 2 guns shooting the same FPS with the same barrel and the same paint will have very little difference in accuracy.

[X-Plosive]

I think it's time to lock this........ anyone, please:(

TigerII you need to take some anger management classes and you need to stop butchering other peoples signatures.

I dunno mac24k I wouldn't put my finger in the way of any bolt. All I know is that Tom said there is no ball distortion when shot out of a mag. You have to remember that that pencil was under the scissor effect and broke because the powerfeed caught the pencil and snapped it. I don't think the same thing would happpen to a paintball since half of it isn't in the breach. I know freeflows won't even break a ball and just burp when you shortstroke.

FeelTheRT it was going into an accuracy debate but I think that the end of my second post got it back on track. I guess for your test to be valid you really have to think about all the variables specially the balls you were using and the barrels. Maybe you were using the older RPS and then used the new advantage shell on another gun(just a possiblity). I think bill mills should test this to end the debate.

[FeelTheRT]

Originally posted by X-Plosive

FeelTheRT it was going into an accuracy debate but I think that the end of my second post got it back on track. I guess for your test to be valid you really have to think about all the variables specially the balls you were using and the barrels. Maybe you were using the older RPS and then used the new advantage shell on another gun(just a possiblity). I think bill mills should test this to end the debate.

I always use TC. It's with any Cocker i've shot really. Any time i break a ball in a Cocker, the rest just go flying off like dumbnutz, while my Mag would just shoot right through it. I havn't really shot any other Mags, well except Major Ho's but i don't belelive i've broke a ball in his gun...

Any other Cocker&Mag owners exprience this?

[X-Plosive]

I think what you say is okay but it all sounds like a big flame and you say everyone knows absoutely ZERO about this topic. Shartley's not posting as much here so I think I should fill in the gap. I too was starting to think shartley would get into pointless and endless rants but I now see why he was/is needed on this forum.

[Shaft]

But don't Cockers have elves that help improve distance?

I have a side question:
Which gun is more consistant with velocity? Making paint, air source, barrel as equal as possible. Hm. Is this even a fair question?

[X-Plosive]

Yep those elves are cool. Hmmmm good question. I guess both are equal depending on what you do. The ReTro valve is +/-2 when in rapid fire. You can also gut the AIR valve and run a palmer stab so I say that both are just as consistent.

[id_oNe]

Heres a new question, which one is more dependable?

[X-Plosive]

I guess there are really way to many variables to judge that one. If the cocker is owned by a compitent person and it's set up properly it would be just as reliable as a mag.

[Manuel_FZR]

No Discussion Cocker vs. Mag !!! Please! This subjekt is expired!
Myself I play a Mag and I´m absolutely a Mag fan. But I also shooted a Cocker last week and I must say, the differences between the two guns are very small. A Cocker can be as fast as a Mag, and a Mag can be as accurat as a Cocker ... and every serious player will tell that.
btw ... the range is the same!

Everyone should play the gun he preferes! And of course, the gun that you play at the moment is the best ;)

[FeelTheRT]

no, this is not expired, and no they have lots of differences. This shall keep going untill either AGD or WGP goes out of business :).

[z-zero]

Personally I'm getting a Mag to settle the debate for myself.

Someone with some time and cash should do this, get a stock cocker, a freak barrell, compressed air system, a Pro-team mag, and some perfect plastic .68 balls. Now set the guns in a vice barrel same height off the ground, guns set at same velocity, using same barrell, same tank, same plastic ball, do some single shot accuracy tests changing the only variable in question, the MARKER itself! this may take some time and money, but it would be good test with accurate results. Post the results and settle it forever. AGD could pull this off, hint hint.

Now for another angle. If the setup described above was used and the test was done to find the most efficient barrell length for gas consumption for both guns, would the lengths be the same? This test would involve many different none ported barrells (same ID) and the use of the same plastic ball shot once then retrieved then shot again. I think the results (most efficient barrell length.) would differ because the valves are completly different. So the whole point of you can't deny physics is true but do you really know all the varibles involved? I don't but I wish I had the resources to do this testing. AGD could this possibly be done? If the results were different, then accuracy, range, and effeiciency are not all totally controlled by paint barrell match. Wow that would be news to some. Just some thoughts, I'm sure there are some loop holes in there somewhere it was all just off the cuff.


:cool:

z-zero

[Arturus]

Originally posted by z-zero
Personally I'm getting a Mag to settle the debate for myself.

Someone with some time and cash should do this, get a stock cocker, a freak barrell, compressed air system, a Pro-team mag, and some perfect plastic .68 balls. Now set the guns in a vice barrel same height off the ground, guns set at same velocity, using same barrell, same tank, same plastic ball, do some single shot accuracy tests changing the only variable in question, the MARKER itself! this may take some time and money, but it would be good test with accurate results. Post the results and settle it forever. AGD could pull this off, hint hint.

Now for another angle. If the setup described above was used and the test was done to find the most efficient barrell length for gas consumption for both guns, would the lengths be the same? This test would involve many different none ported barrells (same ID) and the use of the same plastic ball shot once then retrieved then shot again. I think the results (most efficient barrell length.) would differ because the valves are completly different. So the whole point of you can't deny physics is true but do you really know all the varibles involved? I don't but I wish I had the resources to do this testing. AGD could this possibly be done? If the results were different, then accuracy, range, and effeiciency are not all totally controlled by paint barrell match. Wow that would be news to some. Just some thoughts, I'm sure there are some loop holes in there somewhere it was all just off the cuff.


:cool:

z-zero

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/balistic/closedopen.shtml

Doesn't answer all the specifics of your post, but at least a start.

[Manuel_FZR]

Very Interesting Link! Thanks! :D:D:D

[FeelTheRT]

yes yes, we know, open/closed bolt same ding dang thing. But some people tend to notice that Cocker shoot farther, i personally have not however, many others do.

[Arturus]

Originally posted by FeelTheRT
yes yes, we know, open/closed bolt same ding dang thing.

Cool, glad you already know the 'open/close bolt same F-in thing.' *grins*

Infact, I do as well. The link was just a direct response to the post before and for those who may have not known that such a test was ever conducted. Neat eh?

:rolleyes:


Originally posted by FeelTheRT
But some people tend to notice that Cocker shoot farther, i personally have not however, many others do.

Did I address anywhere in my post, whether or not people tended to 'believe' their cocker to shoot further than a Mag or any other type of marker? Nope... I didn't even touch on that subject. Besides, I believe the majority of us already know that there are those out there who truly believe that their 'marker' is inherently superior in accuracy as well as range; that's why the thread was started.

It was just a link in response to Z-Zero's post and for others who have never seen it.

Thank you for your very polite and curt response. :)

[Chris]

I am going to do my best here to explain a few things, keeping out the myths, and leaving only facts. Personal experience shall stay out of it, until the end.

A gun that is consistant shall be more accurate than one that is not as consistant.

Consistancy comes from a good regulator, and a reliable air source. Some guns also use a spring to determine the quantity of air to be released (spyder, cocker) The more consistant this spring is, the more consistant the gun shall be.

Laws of physics are not variables. Two like objects released at the same velocity shall come to rest at the same place.

I know someone else is going to bring it up, so I will answer it here. My flatline shoots farther than my Boomstick...so you must be wrong. Nope, flatline still follows the laws of physics, it just adds backspin on the ball. Think tennis here, if you want the ball to drop right after the net, you put front spin on it, the ball will travel relatively straight for a short distance, then suddenly drop. If you want the ball to go really far, you put some backspin on the ball and its gone. For those of you who dont like that one, think baseball or soccer, same principle.

If you want to say that one gun shoots farther than another, more accurate than another etc etc...tell me why. By just saying that the xxx shoots farther than the yyy, you sound like an idiot. Back up your so called facts aka opinions with proven facts.

Now for the personal note. I have owned more than my fair share of guns, cockers, mags, angels, novas, spyders, tippmans. None shoot any farther or more accurate than the other. The difference is all in the consistancy. By putting a nice air source and or regulator on any of the above guns, they were all able to shoot equally well, given the fact that I had a good paint barrel match.

Is a cocker more consistant than a mag, well yes and no. My last cockers were more consistant than my current mag, hence more accurate. The cockers would get +/- 2fps while my mag gets +/- 5fps. One a single shot, they are all equal, but in rapid fire, the cocker will put ball on top of ball, while the mag has a slightly larger spread at any given distance. I have had mags before that were +/- 2fps, and they shot just as well as said cocker.

As far as the trajectory thing, I have tried this, when keeping both guns perfectly level, measured at the barrel, they shoot the same. The appearance of the cocker/shocker whatever shooting flatter is just that, an optical illusion. These guns tend to be weighted a little differently, and I know that personally, I tend to hold the barrels on them a little higher than my mag. This is what I have found to be the reason for the cockers "flatter" trajectory.

If anyone here wants to continue this thread, feel free, but back up what you say. If you are unable to back up what you say with anything other than "my friend says so" or "its what the pro's do" or anything simmilar, dont bother posting. We dont need anymore of these stupid myths going around. Some newbie will come and hear about these myths and then tell his friends, who tells his friends, and sooner or later its known as the truth.

-Chris

[z-zero]

I was aware of the closed open bolt tests, I guess what I'm looking for is does the amount of pressure that propells the ball matter? Will it make a difference? Is a higher or lower pressure easier to regulate? Hence easier to make consistent.

z-zero:confused:

[2UnREal]

Alright, let me redeem myself. After much thought about that day when I thought the guy that was shooting at me with a cocker was shooting further than me, I know why! After much thought, I remembered it was a little windy, I was shooting against the wind and he was shooting with it. So, now I feel like a big idiot.

[joeyjoe367]

Personally I think there's some sort of "placebo" or "hypochondria" going on with a lot of 'cocker owners (at least those that say that their 'gun shoots further.

My guess is that a lot of people have been told "this gun shoots further than that 'gun" so much that they belive it.

WGP and whoever else makes closed bolt markers have done great as far as marketing goes.

www.paintballstar.com also did a range test. search for it.

[Potatoboy]

Don't search for it. Just go here (http://www.paintballstar.com/randebtherre.html). I'm such a great guy, ain't I?

[Manuel_FZR]

Hey ... really interesting articles! Has anybody more from that stuff!
Please post the links!

Manuel, the Yamaha link no longer works. Army:cool:

[HyperSnyper]

Well now I guess I might as well put my $0.02 in. I have experiences with both guns. My bro has a tricked Cocker, and I have a semi modded Mag. Both guns shoot just about the same.

The myth about the closed bolt action creates a more accurate and long range shot is a myth that has been proven wrong by many paintball boards already (try go to Warpig.com and see their closed vs open test).

As for true facts that are between the 2 guns. Both have completely differing dynamics.

The cocker uses a closed bolt system to supposively shoot the ball without distorting it. However it really isnt doing that at high fire rates since the ball never really has a time to rest. After consistent air exits the regulator, the hammer hits the valve for a determined duration. This dwell period dtermines how long the ball will be propelled in the barrel. However, as the spring weakens due to age, the dwell will get longer and longer and may hurt consistency.

The Mag design is different as it really doesnt have a dwell period. It realies on a fixed volume air chamber. There is no hammer hitting a pin. There is no dwell. This design will guarantee a consistent volume is always delivered to the paintball (unless age of the gun can increase the air chambers size.. which of course is impossible). The only thing that hurts consisteny is short stroking which will choke the path way for the gasses to flow. Other than that, perfect user operation will get perfect consistency.

As you can see, I will stick with the Mag since it has less variables that can affect its consistency. As long as the spring in the regulator is consistent, and there is no short stroking, it should give me a consistent shot every time. While the cocker relies on the consistencies of 2 springs.

Only in theory I beleive the Mag is better. But in the real world, they are just about the same. My brother and I shoot about +/- 3 fps. Both guns look kewl. And both of us have fun out there in the field.

Whats the problem with all this discrmination? Mag or Cocker? Apples or Oranges? Ford or Chevy? Blond or Burnettes? Is one really better than the other?

Its all about preference. Hope this helps.

-Hyper

[mykroft]

This is what I've found myself, shooting a 99 cocker mostly stock, with ANS Gen-X II reg (Internally a Mag Reg), an old Automag and a newer RetroMag. I find the cocker to be slightly more accurate when rapid-firing as it seems to be a more stable gun platform, less kick=better accuracy in rapid fire, however the mag seems more accurate as a snap shooter, since it seems to point better. The cocker was the most consistent gun I owned as well, for various reasons my RetroMag is about +/- 10bps as currently setup, I'm tuning it to be better. I expect the new superbolt will make the mag a more stable platform, which will improve accuracy when rapid firing.

It's all in the personal preference bit.