New 03 Shocker vs Used Emag

[Mr. Frodo]

Which one would you more experienced people pick?

I was settled on getting a used basic Emag until a guy at a local shop suggested I seach online for a new 2003 Shocker. The overall price difference is why I'm even considering it, and here's the reason: I don't have an HPA tank, but I do have a couple CO2 tanks. Since an Emag requires HPA, the total cost will eventually be ~$800 (about $600 for the marker and $200 for a decent tank). A new 2003 Shocker (no vision) is $699 online, and it can used CO2. The lack of upgrade potential is the only downside when compared with an Emag. I'll be happy if it can shoot faster than I can pull the trigger, so speed is not the issue here. Reliability and looks are.

[CoFFeY[NiTrO]]

i would go with the emag if it has lvl 10. I'm no genious, but you might chop with the shocker and no vison

[the larch]

Buy the emag. You'll be with a company that gives a darn and actually has a forum like this. Why would you ever support a company that would patent the barrel condom....?
I envy you that you have the money to make the choice. BTW, ever consider selling your two CO2 tanks and finding a nice adjustable HPA tank on ebay?
Probably could find the emag there too.
If you are going to your proshop to buy it when you have access to the internet, you are probably looking at spending much more than you have too.
Lotsa really cool stuff pops up on the buyer/seller section of this forum alone.
This is were I built my mag at half price. Good luck.
BTW, I sold both of my shockers to play with a mag.

[Chronobreak]

ide def go with the e-mag for performance and reliability and there is NO WAY that i would use co2 on that shocker

[1stdeadeye]

No way should you use CO2 on the new Shocker! \

Smart Parts says you can with an anti siphon tank, but that thing is going to freeze burn you under rapid fire! (http://www.smartparts.com/shocker.pdf)

[SanDiegoMag]

Next thing you know Smart Parts will try to patent co2, BOYCOT SMART PARTS. Go with the e-mag.

[FallNAngel]

No way you can use CO2 on the new Shocker! Who told you you could?

That's what I was thinking. The only way I could possibly think that would fly is if the MaxFlo was supposed to prevent the suction of CO2 in the tank... I wouldn't trust it though. Personally, I'd go with the ULE E-Mag over the Shocker

[1stdeadeye]

That's what I was thinking. The only way I could possibly think that would fly is if the MaxFlo was supposed to prevent the suction of CO2 in the tank... I wouldn't trust it though. Personally, I'd go with the ULE E-Mag over the Shocker

I actually edited my post after reading the Shocker Manual. Link above! I wouldn't trust it though on such an expensive marker!

[logamus]

well i traded my all ule emag for a vision shocker. im not sitting in the corner crying either. the shocker is a great gun, its way lighter than my full ule emag, stock gets about the same efficiency, shoots at least as fast as my mag did, and the last time i played i went all day with vision off and never chopped one time. other than the efficency issues (which compaired to a mag are a wash) i think the shocker is a better gun. a $90 upgraded bolt from sp will give you efficency mag owners cant even dream of and you can use co2 if you so choose. the only downside is the fact that there are not as many choices for barrels with the shocker as you would have for the cocker threaded ule. not a major issue, just worth pointing out.

keep in mind when posting on an AUTOMAG website that the views will always be somewhat slanted. the same will hold true to any owners group though, just keep that in mind.

[GT]

could be wrong but I thought all new shockers came with the newer style bolt?????

Honestly,
the hard part is finding a used ULE emag. The tend to hold there value and are in the 7-800's easy. For that little amount of cash I would not get either one.

My suggestion is to wait and not get either one. play with what you have now and save up a few hundred bucks more, then come back with the same question.

[logamus]

the shockers now come with an aluminum bolt instead of the delrin one that the first 3900 had. i am talking about the new "turbo charger" bolt. its sp's high efficency bolt that gets around 1600-1700 off a 68/4.5.

[68magOwner]

plan on using HPA for both (although, yes, the shocker dosent "need" it) also, dont count $200 fo ryour tank, my friend got a 68/3k flatline (decent adjustable) for $120 here on AO

[Butterfingers]

Go to www.shockerowners.com and post the same...

Get a spectrum of opinions...

From what Iv'e seen lately... the gun isnt exactly problem free... id say 2 out of the 10 shockers that ive seen lately had some MAJOR chopping/ball breakage problems. Some had FSDO, some worked perfect.

I would hold on getting a shocker until they get problems ironed out.

Some peeps are having problem with the front bolt o-ring shredding paintballs.

This of course would not be a problem if they put the o-ring on the bolt INSTEAD of in the breach like its been done for YEARS.

The e-mag is tried and true. Easier to maintain and with the LX almost chop proof if you tune it right. I can't say the same about non-vision or even vision shockers.

Ive gone almost a year and a half without a SINGLE chop from my LX mag on average about a case every 2 weeks. Thats around 72,000 rds...

[Lohman446]

If I had to buy something from SP... ok lets not go there

Add to your list of options a Rat Impulse - I think you are getting a much much better gun for the money wihtout the problems of the Shocker... I also of course have to add the Viking as well as a large number of markers I cannot possible mention all of

[Skoad]

Well hard decision. Shocker is smart parts = boo.

I was not impressed with my emag. Didn't think it was worth the money. Might look at other options too in the price range.

[gc82000]

from what i seen at the feilds shockers are extremely problemmatic i have seen guys show up with them and spend the whole day asking to borow batteries or orings or something else to that point.go with a mag any day of the year new or used.

[Mr. Frodo]

I've been trolling around shockerowners.com to get an idea of kinds of problems that popped up the most, and from what I can tell, the new bolt solves most of the them. Despite the issues, Shocker owners have the same level of dedication when it comes to their markers as Mag owners do when tuning a Level 10 bolt. I also realize the opinions I get will be slanted towards Mags here, but that's okay. I want to hear how an Emag is so much better than the Shocker, and not just "they suck." I can get that from another forum. :)

I don't pretend to know the why everyone hates SP so much, but that doesn't mean the '03 Shocker is a bad marker. Heck, I hate Nissans, but the 350Z isn't bad, and I almost bought a G35 Coupe. Anyway, it all comes back to the marker and value. I have an F2 Illustrator that I bought new 11 years ago when I used to play all the time. I'm getting back into the game, which has changed quite a lot, and feel an upgrade is in order.

A Karta or ULE Emag with Level would be great. But like gtrsi had pointed out, used ULE Emags are hard to come by, and they keep their value. Modding a stock Emag with a ULE body (I'll leave out the Karta for now) and getting another barrel is more than a new '03 Shocker. Plus, I have to get HPA and gamble on how the previous owner had treated her. That's why I'm comparing a pre-owned stock Emag with a new '03 Shocker.

Larch: I plan on getting the marker online, but I still support my local pro shop because the guys there have been a great help. They just know that helping out a customer save money will just help themselve out in the long run.

[SanDiegoMag]

The difference IS the company. SP is not a bad marker maker, even if they are dousches. The difference is the quality. AGD has a reputation for quality, reliability, service and durability. **IMPORTANT** E-Mags can go manual if the battery dies. But they both have the single chamber design.

In conclusion, shockers and e-mags are coperable exept the manual mode, but AGD is a higher quality company.

[evan123]

Alright well all those Anti-sp people please get out of the thread.

In my opnion which means nothing a emag can be pretty darn heavy with no ULE X-Valve and other ule stuff. I didn't read most of the first reply so i don't know if you would be getting those. THe shocker has no problems chopping if you have a eggy or halo b. The halo is recomended imo. I used one on mine today and had zero chops non-vision. The shocker is fast, lighter, and just plain out more comfy without the battery pack.

Just my opionion

[Enemy]

really you need to go out and try to shoot each gun as best you can..imo the shockers feel cheap and fragile but thats cuz im used to hefty guns and then i finally got to try to walk one today and i had a big problem with the trigger guard being to small for my style then ofcoarse i walked an emag today which was easy to say the least so this comes down to if you were to buy a car would you test drive everything that you might want or just go get the first thing that jumps out at you..

[Jon/xpm]

Mr. Frodo-
Just choose which one you would be more comfrontable with...
Boths gun are great and both have good and bads things with them...
But i would not forget about other markers on the market...
viking, impulse, mech mag, etc...

[lldb003]

i would go with the 03 shocker cause they are very fast guns and light weight.. but i have never heard of usin c02 on a shocker... i bought my shocker for 1300 i got everything with it the vision eye,tank freak kit so i got a good deal.so i would go with the shocker over the e-mag only cause it is lighter and i think it is faster

[teufelhunden]

03 Shocker. Lighter, faster [none of the BPS cap crap... and yes, 4.0 isn't coming out because there's issues with the hardware], nicer trigger [imo], more efficient, and yes, you can run it on CO2, but obviously it's better with HPA

[1stdeadeye]

03 Shocker more efficient,


Bwahahahahahahaha!!! THey are ultra gas hogs!!! :rolleyes:

[WetPaint]

I've been trolling around shockerowners.com to get an idea of kinds of problems that popped up the most, and from what I can tell, the new bolt solves most of the them.

I don't pretend to know the why everyone hates SP so much, but that doesn't mean the '03 Shocker is a bad marker. I have an F2 Illustrator that I bought new 11 years ago when I used to play all the time. I'm getting back into the game, which has changed quite a lot, and feel an upgrade is in order.

A Karta or ULE Emag with Level would be great. But like gtrsi had pointed out, used ULE Emags are hard to come by, and they keep their value. Modding a stock Emag with a ULE body (I'll leave out the Karta for now) and getting another barrel is more than a new '03 Shocker. Plus, I have to get HPA and gamble on how the previous owner had treated her. That's why I'm comparing a pre-owned stock Emag with a new '03 Shocker.



I'm in the same situation, getting back into the game, and my only semi is a F1 illustrator.
My upgrade choices are between a Karta/ULE setup. or the 03 Shocker. Both are in-line designs, which I like, but the Shocker, with an optional bolt (Why don't new ones come with the SP HE bolt??) is very efcicient, and requires NO fiddling about with springs and shims to make it work. I suppose one could even turn it into a mech marker replacing the electronics with a 3-way trigger valve..
My starting point from AGD would be a RT-ULE, which is much cheaper.. The Shocker has come disadvantages, such as price, and the need (stupid) to upgrade the bolt to make it efficient.
Aside from the adjustments, the AGD design seems to require less routine maintenance, in that you just need to shoot some oil through it occasionally. The Shocker needs to disassembled and greased religously, some say after every day of playing. Also, there are more choices in cocker barrels than Shocker-threaded ones.
Still, if I want to support my local shop, they have a selection of nealry half a dozen 03 Shockers, and zero ULE Mags.
BTW: From this thread: http://www.pbreview.com/products/reviews/1514/
Nbossi1 commented:
"GENTLENESS ON PAINT
Hmm, let's see, I can stick my finger in the breech, walk the trigger, and still pull back a finger when I get bored... I have yet to TRY to break paint, but I am fairly certain it won't, you know what I mean?? Let me know if you chop with yours,..."

This says it won't chop FINGERS anyway :-) The one paint breaker is a sharp ridge between the breech and the reduced diameter bore entry at the bolt O-ring. The solution here is to grind down the ridge to form a gentle ramp instead.
The only thing I can't find out about the 03 Shocker is HOW IT WORKS! The photos of the current bolt assy don't look at all like the patent drawings. These show a design that had separate bolt and valve actuators, which let it fire open bolt. The current one, from the pics, seems to only drive the bolt, which by moving forward opens the dump valve (open bolt).
This is the one single-tube Shocker deawing I found (colored to
I suppose I could just keep my F1, although, with it's heavy recoil and trigger, it gets tiring to shoot after a while.
http://webpages.charter.net/dwarner2/ShockBoltSmall.jpg
decisions, decisions..

[teufelhunden]

Bwahahahahahahaha!!! THey are ultra gas hogs!!! :rolleyes:


Yeah, almost as much so as Mags. But the Shocker still beats it. Plus, with his saved $100 he can get a nice bolt kit.

[1stdeadeye]

Yeah, almost as much so as Mags. But the Shocker still beats it. Plus, with his saved $100 he can get a nice bolt kit.


:confused:

I don't think so. I last a lot longer with my X-mag then all the Shocker owners I play with. The Shocker is basically a copy of the Matrix and suffers the same ineffeciancy problem! :rolleyes:

[evan123]

Finally a person here isn't completely centered up about mags.

I have shot many emgas and now own a 03 shocker. This isn't biased at all.

The shocker is just plain out lighter and smaller then the emag could ever be with x-valve and ule. The trigger may not be as walkable but none the less it is super fast with some trigger adjustments. It is a gas hog but like Tuefy said it can be fixed very easily with a new bolt kit.

[logamus]

(Why don't new ones come with the SP HE bolt??)
the paintball world is all about upgrades. you could ask the same question about why dont they all come with vision, or why dont all impys come with a tapeworm. upgrades, everyone does them.


btw, i would love to have a working F1. i loved mine so, i wish i still had it.

[the larch]

Call AGD for customer support 10 times
Call Smart Parts for customer support 10 times.
Compare results.

Perhaps you should try asking questions about the 03 shocker on the Smart parts supported "smartparts.org" website...oh, there is none.
THink about it.

There is a difference, and it is more than just the marker.

Seriously, were would paintball be right now if AGD had played the same patent games Smart Parts has?

When was the last time a Gardner came online to discuss product developments, or walk people through paintball ballistics?

Can you still get parts from Smart parts for all of the stuff they've sold?
Can you still get parts from AGD for all of the stuff they've sold?

Which company is committed to paintball and its customers. Which company is committed to itself.
Think about it.

[vf-xx]

I realize that you were deciding between an Emag and a Shocker, but have you looked at the RT-Pro?

I've owned an emag and currently own an RTP and I think I can honestly say that I like my RTP set up BETTER than the emag. You can get a brand new full ULE RTP for $530 ish. Granted currently some of the parts are backordered but that's a detail. Find yourself a nice used tank either from your proshop or online for about $150 and we're talking a total price just under $700.

Benifits of the RTP as described:
ULE trigger - NICE trigger, I've never walked a trigger before this one
Xvalve - simple to maintain
LVX - Requires some adjustment, but once it's tuned it there's no chopping
Gripframe - Your choice of intelliframe or Y grip with only a $5 difference
Fully Mechanical, no batteries to charge or replace
ULE body - In combination with the X valve makes for a very light gun

Downside
Not electro- but with some practice you very well might not notice. Especially if you're coming from an older semi.

HPA required - To get any real performance out of the shocker you'd need HPA anyway.

I can't think of anything else right now, but that's my take on it.

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

:confused:

I don't think so. I last a lot longer with my X-mag then all the Shocker owners I play with. The Shocker is basically a copy of the Matrix and suffers the same ineffeciancy problem! :rolleyes:


Kidding? I surely hope so! Matrix with evolve bolt kit can get 2100+ shots from a 68/45, and an evolved shocker can get 1600+ shots from a 68/45. I'd LOVE to see a mag do that! Sure, you have to upgrade it, most guns are in need of upgrades out of the box. If you get the shocker, first of all, save up and get a vision model, and get an evolve (or freeflow) lpr and an evolve bolt kit. If you can't get a nitrogen tank, don't get either one of these guns, you WILL need nitrogen with both (I'm aware it says that the shocker is capible of running on co2, but to spend $800+ on a gun and running co2 is rediculous). Another option you may want to consider is a Matrix. Sure, they are a little heavy, but they are super fast, and with the right parts super efficient. You can get them new from dye with eyes and an lpr for $825, and find some really nice used ones for $750 or less. I have owned an emag and an RT pro before, and neither one has come close to shooting anything like my Matrix. It's simply the best gun I've owned. No kick at all, extremely fast, upgradeable, efficient (with the right parts). Whatever you do, I'd remove the mag as one of your choices, they are really not up to par with today's technology in guns (before you bash me, yes, I know about the r&d and everything that agd puts into their guns. The spool valve may not be a better design, but it sure is achieveing better rof with more efficientcy at a lower operating pressure)

[Enemy]

oh man..someone asks a simple question and he gets fed 10,000 answers all full of hype...emag with 4.01 i have seen walked to 24 bps and 22 in e mode..thats walked not put on full auto..like i said before i can walk an emag i cant a shocker the trigger gaurd is too small..also all this hype about guns is getting horrible the shocker is less than a pound lighter than the x-mag...weight is no longer an issue cuz everyone gets the lightest gun then carries half their weight in pods on their back..any way as far as effiency goes i know that mags arent the most effiecent but they will get you through most games..lvl 10 no chops, 3.2 and 4.01 software, gets rid of the bps caps, ule brings the weight down to the point where it will be even with almost all the markers out there, customer service is in favor of agd, rof is faster than you will ever pull the trigger, upgrades are endless with mags, range is all the same on every marker, consistency is with in +/-5 with decent tunning on lvl 10, maintence free and when it does break you can tear down the whole marker in less than a minute and thats taking your time, emag functions with out electronics in case you have any problems, truley both guns are even in my eyes with the mag ahead bye just alittle like i said before try to test em out both triggers function differently one might be more to your style than the other. just realize that if you get a ule emag the only upgrades that are likely to be done for performance is the 4.01 software thats it the rest is cosmetic, can you say that about any other marker out there.

[Mr. Frodo]

All of you have been awesome with sharing your personal experiences and opinions! Thank you!

Can I assume that maintaining Minimag valve is the same for a classic or RT? Because unless I can find a ULE or Micro Minimag with an Intelliframe and Level 10 or X-Valve for under $300, I'm going with a Dragun TES and a 68/45 and here's why:

Over the last week, I've been searching through all the usual paintball forums and reading a lot of threads about both markers. The overall consensus is that it's a bad idea to run CO2 through a Shocker, which I'm beginning to agree based on how CO2 behaves especially at 10+ bps. So, I'm going to have to include an HPA tank in the budget. Unfortunately, I can't find a decent Emag here in the classifieds or on Ebay that are priced less than a new Shocker with vision. (I found a really good deal for one with vision online.) So now I'm looking to spend $1000 for a marker and tank, which makes me cringe. I've been annoying my friends enough (at least the one who will listen and actually care), and I've been annoying my wife to the point where she's telling me to buy the Shocker so she can stop hearing me debate this issue! Yuck... $1000 for a marker and it probably won't be used to it's full potential, at least not yet. A Minimag seems to be more to my level of play, and they're probably easier to find....

[No sKiLLz]

Uh....go to your shop and ask the guy to hand you the Dragun TES and a BKO. BKO is lighter, comes with a better stock trigger, reg, LPR and barrel and you can upgrade a LOT more. TES eye is IR and you can never change that, but if you want an eye in the BKO, break beam is available. Vaporworks makes Chaos boards for the BKO and you can put a Zenitram ASA and Palmer Microrock and volumizer on it to bring the operating pressure far below what the TES is capable of, even with the ONE kit. BKO's are now Autococker threaded, so EVERY barrel manufacturer is available to you. Performance-wise there is not contest. Decide if you like the looks or not.
http://store6.yimg.com/I/shorepaintballsupplies_1791_29944

[gc82000]

I have to agree with no skillz on this one, the BKO is a much better gun and from a company with a longer history. Tes may come with a Spyder threaded barrels but it is basically a ripped off Spyder. Get a BKO and an HPA system so you play can be year around.

[CoolHand]

All you guys who have been poo-pooing the use of CO2 on a 2k3 Shocker need to take a step back, and really look at what you are saying.

Have you ever tried it? No?

Well I have, in fact, I have one setting right here now, that has been up to at least 15 bps on CO2, with no problems at all. I cannot say how it will run at 20+ bps, because I cannot pull the trigger that fast. However, if I were to make a guess, I would say it would run just fine, the vert reg may get a little chilly (never iced once on me though) at the higher ROF's, but other than that, I see no problems.

ANY marker (and I do mean any) that will run at <600 PSI will work just fine on CO2, the trick is to use an Anti-Siphon tube, and get it regulated down to the minimum input pressure, before it goes into the markers first reg (IE you have to double reg it).

I find it funny that an HPA tank brings with it a sort of snobbery that was once reserved for folks riding in Duzenburgs. ("You're using a CO2 tank?! Oh God! I can't even IMAGINE playing like that. You poor fool. Come back and talk to me when you can afford an Nitro tank of your own." All said in a Rockafeller accent of course :D )

Also, if you are wanting to avoid the HPA tank, think about an Impulse. They run like champs on CO2 (lower input pressure yet), and are pretty durned fast with a little help. Not too expensive either. Just a thought.

All in all, I think you'd be better off with a nicer marker that you can run off of CO2, rather than a Dragun, and a preset HPA tank. Its just my opinion, and its worth what you paid me for it (nothing that is), but I have seen, in my experience, a performance plateau in the PB marker world.

At the bottom you have the Spyders and the other sear tripping blowbacks ($150-$250), which work very well for their prices, but leave something to be desired performance wise.

Then you can step up to the nice cockers, or mid range electro pneumatics (bushys, Imps, etc.) ($400-$600), which offer significant performance gains for moderate increases in price.

Next come the high end markers ($900-Gozzillian$) (Nice Timmies, XMags, Ultimate Shockers, High End Imps, EBladed Cockers, Trixes of all sorts, DM4s, Cyborgs, Etc.), which offer moderate to tiny increases in performance (over the $400-$600 markers), coupled with hella steep price tags.

IMHO, most folks are far better off to go with the second group of markers running on CO2, rather than the first group on HPA. If you are looking at markers in group three, but money is a big issue, see the above statement.

If money is no object, then by all means, buy the best HPA system out there, and the nicest marker from group three that you can find, and be very happy (giddy is probably the best word in that case), unless there just isn't any HPA around to be had.

This whole big rant had a point, which I hope you stumbled across in there somewhere, I just get tired of CO2 being portrayed as the great SATAN! :eek:

lol :D

Later :cool:

[No sKiLLz]

CO2 is less consitant and is effected more by temperature change. Such is the nature of Satan.

[Mr. Frodo]

CoolHand: You da man! And I appreciate the explination.

No sKiLLz: D@mn you for giving me more to think about! :) Really though, it's becoming more evident to me that there are a lot of choices in the "mid range," and I'm learning quite a bit from all this research. The Dragun TES is something my local shop had lying on the counter that pique my interest. It was light, not as ugly as a spyder, shot as fast the new Shocker, and cheap. I thought of it as future backup. They had a Shocker there as well, so I was able to compare the weight and feel side by side: 1.5 versis 2.1 pounds respectively with their stock barrels. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to shoot them. :(

[CoolHand]

CO2 is less consitant and is effected more by temperature change. Such is the nature of Satan.

[Satan Voice] FOOL! [/Satan Voice]

CO2 is less consistant, only if it is not properly regulated.

As for tempurature, see above about proper regulation.

HPA seems more consistent, because it is ALMOST ALWAYS double regulated. People are comparing the output of a regulator to the output of a pin valve, and then deducing that CO2 sucks because there is fluctuation. Put a good reg on a CO2 tank, and you will find that the output is rock solid, just like HPA (unless you try to go above the max working pressure of CO2, IE its a bit hard to coax 1000psi out of a 20oz).

I'll let you in on a little secrect - I have never owned a marker that I didn't run on CO2. The list includes Angels, and XValved Mags, as well as Imps, Shockers of various vintages, Bushys, an EMatrix, Spyders and clones, and Cockers of every sort (Eblade and mech). Some worked better than others, but they all worked well enough to play with.

AO'ers pride themselves on seeing through the hype, and questioning everything, so I just thought I'd try to help folks get over these last couple of misconceptions.

Can CO2 work in every situation that HPA will?

No, but there are damn few of those situations.

Is CO2 as easy to use as HPA in all situations?

No, to get the most out of your CO2 system, you have to take your time, and make sure you set it up right, HPA is usually Plug-N-Play.

For the most part, CO2 will serve you well, and provide much more bang for your buck (Can you shoot ~ two cases off of your 68 CU bottle? Cause I can. :D )

Anyway, that's the story.

[James]

Go to www.shockerowners.com and post the same...

Get a spectrum of opinions...

From what Iv'e seen lately... the gun isnt exactly problem free... id say 2 out of the 10 shockers that ive seen lately had some MAJOR chopping/ball breakage problems. Some had FSDO, some worked perfect.

I would hold on getting a shocker until they get problems ironed out.

Some peeps are having problem with the front bolt o-ring shredding paintballs.

This of course would not be a problem if they put the o-ring on the bolt INSTEAD of in the breach like its been done for YEARS.


there are about 5-6 03 shockers out here and not one problem.
i love my emag though. and i've been playing with 03 shockers for the last 3 weeks now vision and non vision i know my next gun will more than likely be an 03 shocker as my back up.

[kauai_paintball]

Call me EEEEVVVVIIILLLL!!! tee heez! Im going ot find someone who will trade my angel for his emag, sell my emag, take the mu=oney, and buy a brand new 2k4 vision shocker. call me an idiot, call me a mag hater, call me what you want, but you cant deny this: Shockers are DAAM SEXY!!!!!! and REALLY FRICKEN NICE!!!! and I like mags. but they too heavy.

[TheDuelist]

I sold my Emag for a new shocker and haven't looked back since. Efficiency isn't a concern for me since I can fill after every game anyway. My Emag setup weighed 9.5 lbs compared to 5.75 with the setup I have now. I am a pretty big guy so its not that I couldn't handle the weight. With the shocker I find I can bring my marker on an opponent faster than before. Overall I enjoy the shocker. Vision isn't a necessity. My brother is one of the fastest shooters I know and he never uses the eyes when he plays and has never had a problem.

[James]

and I like mags. but they too heavy.

can i call you a wimp.
it irrititates me when people complain about the weight of a gun my 9 year old neice can carry my full emag setup around..
personally i think if people complain about holding 7-10 lbs they shouldnt play the sport, i'd hate to hear what they say about getting bunker'd.

[steveo356]

well you could find a used angel led /lcd for ne where form 350/700 and will keep up with a shocker. also angel has more of a bling factor name i think. the emag will do you fine if its taken care of and well tuned.

I like the looks of the shocker its feather light as well i considered buying one at one time but i think i may abandon that hope and take my buisiness else where

[No sKiLLz]

[Satan Voice] FOOL! [/Satan Voice]

CO2 is less consistant, only if it is not properly regulated.

As for tempurature, see above about proper regulation.

HPA seems more consistent, because it is ALMOST ALWAYS double regulated. People are comparing the output of a regulator to the output of a pin valve, and then deducing that CO2 sucks because there is fluctuation. Put a good reg on a CO2 tank, and you will find that the output is rock solid, just like HPA (unless you try to go above the max working pressure of CO2, IE its a bit hard to coax 1000psi out of a 20oz).

I'll let you in on a little secrect - I have never owned a marker that I didn't run on CO2. The list includes Angels, and XValved Mags, as well as Imps, Shockers of various vintages, Bushys, an EMatrix, Spyders and clones, and Cockers of every sort (Eblade and mech). Some worked better than others, but they all worked well enough to play with.

AO'ers pride themselves on seeing through the hype, and questioning everything, so I just thought I'd try to help folks get over these last couple of misconceptions.

Can CO2 work in every situation that HPA will?

No, but there are damn few of those situations.

Is CO2 as easy to use as HPA in all situations?

No, to get the most out of your CO2 system, you have to take your time, and make sure you set it up right, HPA is usually Plug-N-Play.

For the most part, CO2 will serve you well, and provide much more bang for your buck (Can you shoot ~ two cases off of your 68 CU bottle? Cause I can. :D )

Anyway, that's the story.
Wow. I guess setting it up right would be REALLY hard and take a lot of time. Might take someone really smart and patient like you. Or maybe it would only take screwing on one of these.

http://www.funsupply.com/images/reg.jpg

Good job, hype buster. Still not solving the temperature problem at high rates of fire. Still not selling my HPA.

[logamus]

can i call you a wimp.
it irrititates me when people complain about the weight of a gun my 9 year old neice can carry my full emag setup around..
personally i think if people complain about holding 7-10 lbs they shouldnt play the sport, i'd hate to hear what they say about getting bunker'd.
its not the fact that lugging around a 10 pound gun makes you weak, its that a lighter gun is easier to manuver. if you have one setup that is 10 pounds and one that is 5 you must double the force needed to move the 10 pounder as fast as the 5. how many times do you find yourself snap shooting in a game? does your 9 year old neice spend all day popping up over the tops of bunkers like its no big deal? if weight wasnt that big of a deal why did agd come up with ule stuff? when looking at the weight of two guns, you cant just look at it in regards to how heavy they are just "holding", but rather how they are going to feel snap shooting all day long.

i thought the same way you did, right up to the point that i played with a new shocker.

[CoolHand]

Wow. I guess setting it up right would be REALLY hard and take a lot of time. Might take someone really smart and patient like you. I hope that was just sarcasm for the sake of sarcasm.Or maybe it would only take screwing on one of these. I'd say that would do it.

http://www.funsupply.com/images/reg.jpg

Good job, hype buster. Still not solving the temperature problem at high rates of fire. Still not selling my HPA. I wouldn't excpect you to. The only point of that whole exercise was to maybe save the first guy some money that he didn't want to spend. Personally, I run CO2 because we have no HPA fills around here, but I run it out of a MaxFlo 68/4500 tank (because $350 Maxflo is still < $2000 booster :D ).

Anyhoo, that's all I got.

[James]

its not the fact that lugging around a 10 pound gun makes you weak, its that a lighter gun is easier to manuver. if you have one setup that is 10 pounds and one that is 5 you must double the force needed to move the 10 pounder as fast as the 5. how many times do you find yourself snap shooting in a game? does your 9 year old neice spend all day popping up over the tops of bunkers like its no big deal? if weight wasnt that big of a deal why did agd come up with ule stuff? when looking at the weight of two guns, you cant just look at it in regards to how heavy they are just "holding", but rather how they are going to feel snap shooting all day long.

i thought the same way you did, right up to the point that i played with a new shocker.
like i said in my first post i played with the new shocker alot in the last 3 weeks.and i snap shoot all the time, and i mean alot.weight is a bonus.
i do like the light weight of the shocker, but carrying a gun that weighs 8 lbs to a 4lb gun just doesnt bother me, and like i said i play all day usuallly from noon till about 7 or 8. and i snap shoot all the time. no problems or complaints on my end.
but then again to each his own.

[No sKiLLz]

At $55 that's the cheapest adjustable CO2 reg I have seen, but since a 20 oz bottle ($25) needs to be filled twice to three times a day at $6 a pop vs. $10 for all day air, the cost would balance out somewhere between 1-2 years depending how often he goes. I do know CO2 will work with a secondary reg and anti-siphon valve, but if it's going to cost as much anyways, why not get HPA and avoid any possible problems that arise from using CO2?

But yeah, there is an alternative.

[CoolHand]

At $55 that's the cheapest adjustable CO2 reg I have seen, but since a 20 oz bottle ($25) needs to be filled twice to three times a day at $6 a pop vs. $10 for all day air, the cost would balance out somwehere between 1-2 years depending how often he goes. I do know CO2 will work with a secondary reg and anti-siphon valve, but if it's going to cost as much anyways, why not get HPA and avoid any possible problems that arise from using CO2?

But yeah, there is an alternative.

Wow, they sure are proud of CO2 where you are. Most places I've been its like $4 to fill my 68 CU, $3 for a 20oz, and $2 for anything smaller.

Plus, I can shoot at least a case and a half of paint on one fill, so $4 pretty much holds me for the day.

Its not the ultimate solution, but a Shocker on a 20oz antisiphon will keep you playing untill you can afford an HPA tank. I guarantee that it won't gut the Shocker or anything like that (provided that the orings aren't dry of course), but it probably will freeze the outside of the vert reg when you start wailing at 20+ bps. :D Just wear some gloves, you'll be fine. ;)

[No sKiLLz]

Wow, they sure are proud of CO2 where you are. Most places I've been its like $4 to fill my 68 CU, $3 for a 20oz, and $2 for anything smaller.

Plus, I can shoot at least a case and a half of paint on one fill, so $4 pretty much holds me for the day.

Its not the ultimate solution, but a Shocker on a 20oz antisiphon will keep you playing untill you can afford an HPA tank. I guarantee that it won't gut the Shocker or anything like that (provided that the orings aren't dry of course), but it probably will freeze the outside of the vert reg when you start wailing at 20+ bps. :D Just wear some gloves, you'll be fine. ;)
But freezing is bad for O-rings. :confused:

[Mr. Frodo]

Wow, they sure are proud of CO2 where you are. Most places I've been its like $4 to fill my 68 CU, $3 for a 20oz, and $2 for anything smaller.

Plus, I can shoot at least a case and a half of paint on one fill, so $4 pretty much holds me for the day.

Its not the ultimate solution, but a Shocker on a 20oz antisiphon will keep you playing untill you can afford an HPA tank. I guarantee that it won't gut the Shocker or anything like that (provided that the orings aren't dry of course), but it probably will freeze the outside of the vert reg when you start wailing at 20+ bps. :D Just wear some gloves, you'll be fine. ;)


I'd be happy if I can shoot accurately at 10 bps. :D I don't think my 20oz is antisiphon though.

[CoolHand]

But freezing is bad for O-rings. :confused:

The reason its bad is because dry (or improperly lubed) orings will freeze (stick) to the aluminum housing, and then tear little chunks out of them when they need to move. If they are properly lubricated with an ultra low temp oring lube (which Shocker Lube or Dow 33 happens to be), they will be fine, and can in fact work just fine when liquid CO2 is present.

Most orings couldn't care less about low temps, as long as they are lubed well enough, however, I have never seen any rubber out there that can take much over 200 deg C (good thing we don't paintball on Mercury, huh? :D ).

So there, another myth debunked, lol, got any more. :cool:

Frodo - You can have an antisiphon installed by anyone who has been trained in cylinder safety. I believe Palmer's Pursuit will help you out, if you can't find someone local. They will need your tank, and the ASA you will be screwing it into.

Good Luck

[cledford]

[Satan Voice] FOOL! [/Satan Voice]

I'll let you in on a little secrect - I have never owned a marker that I didn't run on CO2. The list includes Angels, and XValved Mags, as well as Imps, Shockers of various vintages, Bushys, an EMatrix, Spyders and clones, and Cockers of every sort (Eblade and mech). Some worked better than others, but they all worked well enough to play with.


How did you get the Xvalve to run C02?

-Calvin

[Mr. Frodo]

How did you get the Xvalve to run C02?

-Calvin

I was meaning to ask that too. It's my understanding that CO2 is about 800-900psi at room temperatures and hover around 950-1000 on warm days, but can spike to well over 2000psi if the bottle is left in the sun. So adding a reg that's set at 800 should take care of the pressure fluxuations. But if you start ripping at 10+ bps, the rapid decompression cools the CO2 and the pressure can get down to around 500psi. Can an x-valve even operate properly at that pressure?

[CoolHand]

I was meaning to ask that too. It's my understanding that CO2 is about 800-900psi at room temperatures and hover around 950-1000 on warm days, but can spike to well over 2000psi if the bottle is left in the sun. So adding a reg that's set at 800 should take care of the pressure fluxuations. But if you start ripping at 10+ bps, the rapid decompression cools the CO2 and the pressure can get down to around 500psi. Can an x-valve even operate properly at that pressure?


The short answer is - No it can't, for all the reasons you just listed. (smart fella).

The way around it is in there as well, it basically centers around my inabilty to shoot a mag over 8-9 bps (Its sad, I can shoot a mech cocker faster than an Xvalved Mag). The XValve CAN recharge too fast to allow the CO2 to expand, but only if you are shooting above X bps (depending on ambient temp), however, at 75 deg F, and shooting at no more bps than I can, it handles CO2 with the same grace that a Classic valve did.

Now, put a hair trigger on it, or a nice electro frame, and you've got a problem. Mags, and Angel LCDs have always been the toughest markers to get CO2 to work with, and in the end, they never worked as well as I'd have liked them to with it.

So the long and the short of it is this - An XValved mag will run on CO2, but only at the bottom end of its performance spectrum.

Pressure is pressure is pressure, and as long as CO2 is providing enough of it, there are no problems (no explosions or random corrosions).

That's all the sagelike advise I can muster just now.

Later

[No sKiLLz]

The short answer is - No it can't, for all the reasons you just listed. (smart fella).

The way around it is in there as well, it basically centers around my inabilty to shoot a mag over 8-9 bps (Its sad, I can shoot a mech cocker faster than an Xvalved Mag). The XValve CAN recharge too fast to allow the CO2 to expand, but only if you are shooting above X bps (depending on ambient temp), however, at 75 deg F, and shooting at no more bps than I can, it handles CO2 with the same grace that a Classic valve did.

Now, put a hair trigger on it, or a nice electro frame, and you've got a problem. Mags, and Angel LCDs have always been the toughest markers to get CO2 to work with, and in the end, they never worked as well as I'd have liked them to with it.

So the long and the short of it is this - An XValved mag will run on CO2, but only at the bottom end of its performance spectrum.

Pressure is pressure is pressure, and as long as CO2 is providing enough of it, there are no problems (no explosions or random corrosions).

That's all the sagelike advise I can muster just now.

Later
Soooo, I think he's trying to say you're better off with an HPA. :D

[CoolHand]

Soooo, I think he's trying to say you're better off with an HPA. :D

On an XValved Mag - Yes, certainly.

On SP markers and cockers - Nah, CO2 is fine for the most part.

On Timmies, Trixes, and Angels - Go HPA if you can get fills, as CO2 will end up costing you just as much for the regs to make it work well, and is therefor a last resort.

You gotta understand, I don't use CO2 because I love it or because its the best thing since the BJ was invented, but because that's all there is here. So I have come to terms with it, and we get along famously.

If you can afford a $1k marker, HPA is not a problem for you, but if money is tight, you should step back a few notches (especially if you only need to shoot 10bps), buy a bone stock Imp, and throw that 20oz on it.

It comes with one of the best CO2 regs on the market, straight from the factory, and only needs about 130 psi (at the most) to run, so you save money all around. And, when you get some more cash, you can rebuild it from stem to stern with whatever parts you like (if you like).

I will reitterate - You will be far happier with an Imp on CO2, and money for paint, than a Dragun on HPA, or a Shocker on HPA and no money to play with.

Now I am done, this brings me full circle, and anything else will just be repeating myself.

Choose your fate halfling :D

[RoadDawg]

All I'm gonna say is that when I've used co2 in cold temps (Utah in January) I had all sorts of jumping. Froze every oring in the classic valve (even with a Xchamber and anti siphon). Now it wasn't no reg but hell it worked in SoCal no problem. So basically HPA is a good choice. If your gonna spend $800+ on a marker and you can't afford a $100-$180 HPA tank (48/3k are only $68) something is up with your priorities. Hold off a bit or find a used one to where you can afford a HPA tank. It'll save all sorts of hassles. $10 a day for all day air is plenty good for me, compared to $6 a fill for co2. That's why I don't mind having my 45/4500 (flatline) on my emag. It's small, light and gets real good consistancy pretty much out of the box. +4/-4 over chrono at 275 fps, let's see that with co2 in cold temps w/o spending more money then necessary.

[AGDlover]

ok switch to mech and see withch one wins?(hehe 03shocker isn't mech ehehehe i'm so cleaver)

[Mr. Frodo]

Thanks for all your help! I decided to order an Omen, and it arrived on Monday (so happy!). I'm still breaking in the reg by dry firing it, but I ran out of CO2 too soon. And yes, CO2 does work, but I'm getting an HPA tank anyway.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=137955

I've tuned the recock to the point where it will go into a full auto burst at just the right trigger pressure. More pressure will only shoot one ball, and less pressure won't active the micro switch at all. I'm looking forward to playing with it this weekend.... has anyone here ever played at Loki Paintball in Prosper?

[FalconGuy016]

Thats neat, I'd never thought of c02 that way. You should make a thread based on that

On the issue: I have a non vision 2k3 shocker and my friend just bought a micro E. All I can really say is, you have to try both out for yourself.

[845]

Without vision the emag will beat the shocker, however with vision I would take the shocker over the emag any day. If you decide on the shocker get a vert max flo cause the bottom grip one feels funny cause the tank is in a funny position on your shoulder.

[madmatt151]

Well, I have been playing for over 10 years, and have shot mags for most of that time. I recently got my first emag and it is great, I love mags and would always recommend them. A friend of mine was just getting into the sport about 5 months ago. He wanted a good gunand I was recommending many of the "beginner" electros to him. I was really trying to get him to buy a BKO. Everyone said good things and the price was right. We drove to a local store where they had many to choose from and after looking at a lot of markers he picked up an 03 shocker and fell in love. He got the light blue one and paid $975 for the marker with matching Max Flo tank. I thought this was a great deal and honestly it shoots great. I can barely walk most electros, and I was ripping on it. It is extremely light, and he was a small guy so he liked that alot. He had absolutely no problems, except for some adjustments needed on the Max Flo. The forst game we played together I was amazed by the stream of paint he was laying for me. I was finding it very hard to say bad things about it. Now I love my emag, but I can definitely see the good things with this marker. It isn't big and bulky, which is why I am drawn to mags. It is very light, and it seems to be pretty efficient. I mean coming from mags anything is more efficient. You should figure on what kind of style you are looking for and how the both of them feel. I personally like to tinker wiht things and fix them. This is a good thing because most people and fields have never seen a mag or emag and couldn't help you fix it. Shockers are all over and easy to find help. Determine if you are a person who wants to bring thier marker to someone to fix or if you like to tinker and do it yourself. Just my $.02.

[Smoke]

Go to www.shockerowners.com and post the same...

Get a spectrum of opinions...

From what Iv'e seen lately... the gun isnt exactly problem free... id say 2 out of the 10 shockers that ive seen lately had some MAJOR chopping/ball breakage problems. Some had FSDO, some worked perfect.

I would hold on getting a shocker until they get problems ironed out.

Some peeps are having problem with the front bolt o-ring shredding paintballs.

This of course would not be a problem if they put the o-ring on the bolt INSTEAD of in the breach like its been done for YEARS.

The e-mag is tried and true. Easier to maintain and with the LX almost chop proof if you tune it right. I can't say the same about non-vision or even vision shockers.

Ive gone almost a year and a half without a SINGLE chop from my LX mag on average about a case every 2 weeks. Thats around 72,000 rds...

Every single new Shocker I've seen has had major problems.

[logamus]

Every single new Shocker I've seen has had major problems.
mine works perfectly. it has worked perfectly since the day i got it. 5 cases and not one chop, sometimes vision was on sometimes not. really cheap paint, sometimes not. the 3 other new shockers that i have seen have had the same kind of success that i have had too. if you want to talk reliability, at my team practice this past weekend i played every game that i was there for and for a good chunk of the time i watched a fella on my team work on his emag. he worked and worked and worked and couldnt fix it.

moral, not every new shocker has problems and not every emag is problem free.

[magmonkey]

I have a few customers with 03 shockers.

only one is consistantly happy with his marker

one is a brand new dynasty that is back at smart parts for a second time (before the marker has made it to the field)

a hand full of $30.00 or ring kits
2 blown noids (that will be fixed if you buy a MUCH needed manifold to attach a lpr)

the thing that annoys me the most about the design of the marker is (i was told it has been fixxed on newer makers)
that if you break paint in the marker and want to do a decent job cleaning it
you go to remove the noid to run the body under water just undo the two bolts right .....WRONG you have to disassemble the noid to take it out because the have seen fit to solder a circuit board on top of it and you cannot take it off in one piece.


out of the guys who have them ONE is happy with it and the rest are not overwhelmingly impressed

as for the emag mine is #152 and has been plugging away with only one trip back to agd for a software update that took almost no time


plus take a stand,
smart parts is doing the wrong things to our sport , please don't support them

[logamus]

plus take a stand,
smart parts is doing the wrong things to our sport , please don't support them
so is wdp, should we hate angels now too?

why in the world would you need to tear the gun down to the noid after breaking a ball? im not sure how healthy it is to be that anal about ones gun.