No More Non-WGP Cockers?

[Chojin Man]

From what I took from the article they are trying to stop the sale of all "knockoff" cockers. K2 is claiming that the cocker design is their "acquired intellectual property" since they bought WGP(duh). So what kind of cockers is this going to appy too?

acticle.
here (http://www.paintballstar.com/pn/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&page_id=179&POSTNUKESID=f7073be81495780abd52194ff607edc6)

[The Action Figure]

this in turn means that only good plastic cockers will be made :D ;) :cool: :)

[Dayspring]

Means unless System X is using WGP bodies, they're not going to be making cocker knock-offs. Same goes for National Paintball's version.

[Deep Sixx]

I'm not a lawyer by any means, but seeing as how WGP didn't invent it, I don't see how they can claim ownership.

sixx

[Cryer]

K2 Inc. looks forward to continuing WGP’s long-standing relationships with responsible custom product manufacturers. Bud Orr reiterated, “Our company wants to make sure that players have the opportunity to experience genuine Autococker brand markers including those from our approved custom manufacturers.”

So likely, FF, Planet Eclipse, and the like will still have their custom house lines. I think they're mainly talking about clones. CCM might have to change a few things. Dragun, too.

[Chojin Man]

I'm not a lawyer by any means, but seeing as how WGP didn't invent it, I don't see how they can claim ownership.

sixx

Then who did?

[Fred]

Glenn Palmer invented pneumatic automation for paintball markers...

Bud just implemented it on his Sniper pump marker and marketed the heck out of it.

Palmer stuck with his own thing, quality custom markers, Typhoon, Blazer, etc...

Yay, maybe now Sys-X's POS markers will get pulled from the market... they're junk.

---Fred

[Cryer]

o BTW, Chojin your link doesnt work... :)

[Chojin Man]

whoops. Fixed it. Thanks Cryer.

[spantol]

I was under the impression that WGP's autococking system wasn't patented (and indeed, a quick USPTO search for "orr" and "paintball" doesn't yield much). I'd assume, then, that this means they're going to be more vigorous in protecting their trademarks--the terms "Cocker" and "Autococker."


From what I took from the article they are trying to stop the sale of all "knockoff" cockers. K2 is claiming that the cocker design is their "acquired intellectual property" since they bought WGP(duh). So what kind of cockers is this going to appy too?

acticle.

[Deep Sixx]

I was under the impression that WGP's autococking system wasn't patented (and indeed, a quick USPTO search for "orr" and "paintball" doesn't yield much). I'd assume, then, that this means they're going to be more vigorous in protecting their trademarks--the terms "Cocker" and "Autococker."

It's not patented, because Orr didn't design it... as has been said, Glenn Palmer did. As for the word "Autococker", it is a trademark of WGP... "cocker" is not.

sixx

[spantol]

Mention that to the USPTO. They're under the impression that WGP has trademarked both terms.


As for the word "Autococker", it is a trademark of WGP... "cocker" is not.

sixx

[Deep Sixx]

Mention that to the USPTO. They're under the impression that WGP has trademarked both terms.

hmm... I was always under the impression that the word 'cocker was free and clear. That's why everyone calls their version of it a 'cocker, not an Autococker.

Oh well.

sixx

[spantol]

It was until relatively recently. WGP got that particular trademark in late 2002.


hmm... I was always under the impression that the word 'cocker was free and clear. That's why everyone calls their version of it a 'cocker, not an Autococker.

Oh well.

sixx

[logamus]

Mention that to the USPTO. They're under the impression that WGP has trademarked both terms.

yet another blow to the adult film industry. ;)

[WARPED1]

http://www.paintballstar.com/pn/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&page_id=179&POSTNUKESID=f8b359c75066db6a300bb0ed71dcfd65
WGP has cocker and Autococker trademarked.

[GT]

didnt we see this before and Bud lost in court?

[WARPED1]

Probably, but thats because Bud didn't have K2's money.

[Loud Tim]

didnt we see this before and Bud lost in court?
i remember that also it was like a year or two ago and bud lost so didnt that totally open up the market. meaning that everyone making cocker clones is in the clear and that all the company's that did make autocockers no longer had to pay royalties to wgp. i think im gonna do some searching and see what i can find.

[NukeGoose]

AKA won in court against WGP when they were sued about making the Merlin, which means that making a knockoff cocker using the same autococking system isn't illegal. However, using non-WGP bodies and calling it a cocker is, which WGP is going to crack down on supposedly.

So SX will continue making their fake cockers, and everything will be much the same, just a change in terminology.

[DK1]

the more I check this out, the more I think it's about the term "autococker" rather than any patents on the operation of the marker. WGP doesn't have any patents on the gun... I could only find two for them, one was a "gas accumulation" cylinder, and the other was for the Hinge trigger. They do have trademarks on "cocker" and "autococker," though.

I'm guessing they are just going to crack down on what people call stuff... but we'll see.

DK1

[Muzikman]

Just start calling them Autopumpers ;)

[MarkM]

It is just a re-hash of what WGP said before in regards to protecting itself...K2 whilst it has more money are just crossing the T's and dotting the I's nothing has changed nor will it. The aftermarket part producers will just re-word their product description if they feel they might be in trouble.

[AGD]

Lets all welcome big company menatlity to paintball. No patents, already lost trying to get people to stop before and the only reason cockers are as popular as they are is because EVERYONE makes stuff for them. Kill off all the people helping you succeed and you will be like AGD, a stand alone in the paintball world.

Its a stupid move especially since I am not aware of ANYONE who still buys bodies from Worr. Lets face it, compared to top end tournament guns today cockers in general don't have the looks or the speed. You need help staying on top, one company can't do it alone.

I can talk like this now since Budd is no longer my competitor only my friend.

AGD

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Thats why AGD is so great. You know it's all legitimate and all. No ***s(like fockers is cocker), all great true genuine products.

[argnot]

Just need to start calling them cocs. Closed Operation Cycling System. I wouldnt mind seeing some of clones come off the market. The dragun for one. I think it is fine if you make something that is quality. Spider Clones are another anoying thing. If they increase the preformance, like timmys, it would be cool.

[tyrion2323]

K2...Pfft!
Go with Dynastars. More pop when you lay your hip into the hill, and they're a bit stiffer overall. K2s are too soft to race on, unless you're a lightweight!

Heck, I'd take the Rossi Power 9Ss laying in my room over a new pair of K2s anyday!

I see a joint AGD/Dynastar merger on the horizon!

Jacob

[NukeGoose]

K2...Pfft!
Go with Dynastars. More pop when you lay your hip into the hill, and they're a bit stiffer overall. K2s are too soft to race on, unless you're a lightweight!

Heck, I'd take the Rossi Power 9Ss laying in my room over a new pair of K2s anyday!

I see a joint AGD/Dynastar merger on the horizon!

Jacob
Bah. Enemy twintips fo' life. At least until I get a chance to try some of those Atomic twins...

[tyrion2323]

Bah. Enemy twintips fo' life. At least until I get a chance to try some of those Atomic twins...

Ha! Twin tips! Ha!

If you're not racing, you're not skiing! :p

[shivors]

All the more reason for everyone to give up this foolishness and purchase a Spyder of their choice!

[Fixion]

Ha! Twin tips! Ha!

If you're not racing, you're not skiing! :p

Back in my day we didn't have these fancy dohickeys called "skies". We used a pair of old two by fours after we extracted the rusty nails with our teeth. We didn't have those heated massage "chair lifts" either, we were real men and hiked up the mountain in snow waist deep! Barefeet! Do you know how long it takes to get up a mountain like that? FOUR HOURS, and thats a small mountain! Then we taped our feet to the two by fours with some "stickittodaman" brand tape and hoped that we could slide down the mountain without breaking ourselves! AND WE LIKED IT!!!

And that is why I snowboard. :p

[shartley]

Lets all welcome big company menatlity to paintball. No patents, already lost trying to get people to stop before and the only reason cockers are as popular as they are is because EVERYONE makes stuff for them. Kill off all the people helping you succeed and you will be like AGD, a stand alone in the paintball world.

Its a stupid move especially since I am not aware of ANYONE who still buys bodies from Worr. Lets face it, compared to top end tournament guns today cockers in general don't have the looks or the speed. You need help staying on top, one company can't do it alone.

I can talk like this now since Budd is no longer my competitor only my friend.

AGD
Big business mentality? Seems to me that they are only trying to enforce what rights they have, and that Budd was not able to do due to funding.

And to me it seems that this is not saying folks can’t use the technology, only the looks and name. And what is wrong with that? Would you like folks to start making markers and calling them Automags? Hey, the name may get out more and then your actual products may sell even better, right? That would be using your same argument.

What if third parties who now make rails, bodies, and grip frames for Automags started making the entire marker? And what if they started calling them Mags, and Automags? What if they did so, but didn’t use any AGD patented operating system?

Sorry, to me trying to pass this off as something bad is simply wrong. And I don’t see it really affecting anyone making products, only what they call them and what they look like.

Let’s take a look at what Budd said about this…

Bud Orr, President of WGP in explaining this action to custom product manufacturers and players alike stated, “Our intent is to protect our customers from being misled by non-genuine Autococker product falsely presented in the market place. We are going to aggressively pursue all companies that we feel are manufacturing, marketing or distributing non-WGP premium markers as the Autococker brand or look.”

Source: http://www.paintballstar.com/pn/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&page_id=179&POSTNUKESID=f8b359c75066db6a300bb0ed71dcfd65

Looks pretty clear to me… it is a branding and identity issue, and not an issue of how the product works.

As for top end tournament markers…. since when did every player play in tournaments? Since when did every player use a top end marker? To think that if you are not competing with “top end tournament” markers you can’t be a force in the paintball industry or provide a product that sells well is silly at best. There is a market for every marker that we see on the fields today… if not, they would not be there. And the last time I looked, I saw plenty of Cockers on the field.

Also the cocker did not suddenly become a worthless marker simply because K2 purchased Budd’s company.

And I would also point out that just because K2 now owns Budd’s company, he didn’t stop being a competitor. He is still the President of WGP, he just does not own the company. And as such, he IS still a competitor of AGD. His aim to make and sell a competing product did not change simply because he is no longer the highest rung on the latter, or does not own the company.

[Shykicker]

Well, Tom didn't say that they can't, or that they're wrong to pursue the issue- only that it was a stupid move. And arguably, yes it was. Especially since WGP is defining a "genuine" 'cocker as one with a WGP body. Which means if you want to market an autococker with all "genuine" parts -except- the body, suddenly it's suspect as an inferior product.

Also, I don't really see people going about saying "Man, this custom autococker I got sucks. Autocockers suck!" It just doesn't seem like it's a problem. "inferior products" is just an excuse, because (correct me if I'm wrong) custom 'cockers tend to be just a cut above the stock Autocockers.

And they're basically telling you that if you swap out your body to a non-WGP slug mill-job, you're not supposed to call your marker an Autococker.

I suppose I just don't see how after-market upgrades denegrate the 'quality' of a product to the point where it's no longer an "Autococker."

As for Budd Orr being a 'competator,' I dunno. Every time I read his new statements in a press release, I just can't help but imagine a K2 Exec with a Budd Orr puppet.

But what's in a name? In the long haul, it's not a huge deal. And I think that's the problem. It's *not* a huge deal. So why is K2 making such an issue out of it? It comes off as just sort of goofey and counter-productive.